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Born enlightened? After I started reading this forum, I kinda don't know what people mean by ENLIGHTENMENT anymore. People are having different opinions on enlightenment so to answer this "Born enlightened?" question, I might have to ask what do you mean when you say enlightenment? What is enlightenment to you? What do you think enlightenment would be like? To me, enlightenment is being in state of nothingness. Mind does not exist in enlightened state. Not even awareness. Babies feels, want, and know. I'm not just saying this out of book or hearsay. Babies are not enlightened because the ego (sense of self) is formed at the moment the egg in the womb is fertilized. Not only big animals have this ego (sense of self), little animals in our bodies such as cells also have ego.

@abrakamowse What? Never heard of nothingness. Its a religious term isnt it? I've had experiences where I see the perfection of the human race. For about 2 minutes. Then it goes away. Is that "nothingness" then?

@Nomad Is Nothingness real?

@brianman3 Hi, I don't think anybody can help you if you don't tell us what your problem is specifically. What is it you feel you need to express that you imagine is going to be so badly received? True self and false self: A false self is where you identify with an issue so much that it becomes all consuming, runs your life, runs your thoughts feelings behaviours. "Nothingness" isn't a self, it's an organising aspect that allows all your different aspects of your personality to harmonise and function cohesively as a whole. If you want to get a quick introduction to your true Self and what it feels like without having to do years of meditating then try "Big Mind" process. http://bigmind.org/ Do the process and talk to the aspect of yourself that wants to express itself. It will have a healthy side and an unhealthy side. You might only be aware at this point of it's unhealthy side, so it's probably a good idea that you are keeping it under wraps and are afraid to express it. If you do find that your expression should be socially accepted then finding like minded people and pushing for social acceptance is a healthy way to raise awareness of your right to express this part of you. Homosexuality has travelled a long road. In 1973 homosexualty was still classified as a mental illness in the Diagnositc and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders http://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/practice/dsm.

In French, "Bonjour" literally means "Good Day". And when I was young, that was a problem for me. Because I wanted to say Hello to people, without necessarily wishing them a good day. What if the person's was a murderer ? What if their "Good Day" was spent abusing children, or manipulating people. Why would I wish them a good day ? Basically, I was so obsessed about honesty that it became hard for me to interact normally with people. For me, small talk wasn't a "small" problem at all. But a few years ago, I finally found a solution to it. I had to work on my personal dictionary. I had to split my definition of truth in two parts. Practical Truth and Metaphysical Truth. Practical Truths are the useful ones. The ones people use in their day to day life. The ones that are "true enough" to help you get tangible results in life. For example : My laptop is in front of me right now. This is true enough. Sure, if you gave me 30 minutes and a joint, I could find a hundred ways to make that statement philosophically debatable or scientifically inaccurate. But if you wanted to borrow my laptop, I probably wouldn't answer "I don't really know what a laptop is. Or if any of us really exist. Or what borrowing even means". I would probably say "Yeah, here it is". Which is not metaphysically accurate, but still practically accurate. Metaphysical Truths are the ones that survive any kind of questioning. They are absolutely and fundamentally true. Unfortunately, during my own pursuit of truth, I reached a point where nothing is certain enough to be classified as a Metaphysical Truth. So I can't give examples. Even statements like "Something exists" doesn't seem solid enough for me. But some religious folks might include "God exists". Some spiritual folks might include "The real self is nothingness". Some scientific folks might include "Evolution is real". No problem with that... I want to hear your thoughts on the subject ! What do you classify as Metaphysical Truth ? Do you split Practical Truths in subcategories, depending on their level of consciousness, or the level of personal development needed to access them ? Do you see totally different levels than the two I proposed ? Do you think about those things as much as I do ? And finally, I wish you a good day everyone ! Even the murderers...

Nothingness loops back into existence to become one thing happening and completes the circle? If that's what you mean by looping, I totally agree.

@Ayla i sat there in silence .... in this nothingness.. i am it... that it that i am is no-thing... cry cry , laugher laugher, more tears , more crying more joy.. now there is nothing left to do. i know thoughts will be knocking and continue to knock... but this time i don't have to answer or pay attention Going out of my mind soooo happppy!

The silent observer is absolute nothingness. It contains nothing, and yet it contains everything. Something that that will always allude the mind. It permeates this existence at all times and everything that happens here, echoes' into nothingness for infinity.. Conscionsceness is that empty space within this experience. It flourishes when there is no mind.

@abrakamowse Everyday, Same thing from my previous post. when I said we were dead it is the truth, or we never existed which is the same thing I'm pretty smart that is the truth that can't be communicated. like how you "FEEL" someone during a conversation and all you/they said was "hey" or w/e Because you can say hey 100 different ways with "Body language" each meaning something totally different by the pitch of your tone or movements, correct? . Some 1 deny me this. and 9/10 you can pick up on this. The pain/sadness comes from letting go,everything you thought you had or always wanted. Liek your best memory that dwells in you head that you can never get back (theres nothing you can do/ no money in the world crying etc.). idk if it ever goes, no one here has mastered it that is the last step to enlightenment I believe Jesus or heaven is real it is right here. Sorry to do some religious dogma Do you people believe in a actual god? other than nothingness? what if you could create an illusion of beliefs.. would you choose heaven? Would you choose a paradise of eternal happiness and no pain with your friends/family or eternal nothingness. there has to be a better way I keep getting this feeling and I try to run from it everyday literally each second something IS calling me I just can't let go out the sadness or pain or fear . I'm scared to let go what will happen to me idk Maybe it's an ego death

This is something I do. In much the way that Leo talks about dealing with strong emotions by 'superconducting' them through you, this works for all feelings and emotions. Just observing it without judging it, or expecting anything from it, and most importantly without resisting it. We often feel a negative emotion well up inside us and then judge it as something that shouldn't happen or we don't want. Then we try to fight it and push it away, deny that it is happening. But if we just let it be, observe it, recognise it and allow it without reacting to it then, as you say, it melts away. This is also something I practive when meditating. If I am experiencing an emotional reation to something I can invoke that emotion during meditation, give it my full attention, then refocus my mind back on the 'nothingness', allow my thoughts to dissolve and the emotion dissolves with them. Then I'll re-invoke the emotion, observe it and do the same. I find each time I run this cycle the emotion becomes weaker and weaker until it no longer happens and I am at peace in my mind and body again. This effect lasts for a while afterwards. It's a great way to reduce emotional reactivity and maintain a more calmer and constructve mindset.

This claim is unfalsifiable. I agree that decreasing activity in certain parts of the brain via meditation/drugs/surgery/disease will give you the feeling that you are the world and not the self but there is no way you can say anything further. If you are saying the brain is a filter then damaging it or committing suicide should be the fastest way to enlightenment, yet people aren't doing that. It seems to me that a feeling of nothingness requires an active brain with a specific part deactivated. The gain from understanding no-self is still as great as ever. You get the benefit of knowing there's no self to die, I just don't think you can claim that without a brain enlightenment exists. The room and actor exist only when the projector exists.

This is mostly a theoretical one, but probably has applications within meditation, consciousness work and our idea of the self. I'm 100% certain that I'm wrong about SOMETHING here, so any corrections are appreciated. When people first encounter the Doomsday Argument, it's basically the most world-altering thing they've ever heard of. It goes like this: why were we born RIGHT when technology started developing? The answer usually being: because there won't be a future to be born into, because technology will cause the world to collapse. Except... that's total bullshit, because that would imply a weak form of time travel exists. It wouldn't be a form of time travel that could change the future, though, because regardless of whether the apocalypse is coming, the "You" would always be there, experiencing this supposed "time travel". Even so, it's applicable from your point of view, and it would make logical sense for the experiencer to assume that this Doomsday is coming. Except, no. Ultimately, with regard to consciousness, it is just as likely for you to be born in America as it is to be born Elvis Presley. It's non-accumulative. The entire concept of "likelihood of being born as ___" doesn't make sense and stems from our need to explain everything based on 4-dimensional Platonic spacetime mechanics. This flaw makes it hard for us to understand things outside of said 4-dimensional spacetime, like quantum mechanics, the lack of a need for an outside creator or source for the Big Bang (conservation of matter/energy only applies in our 4D understanding), the self being nothingness itself, countable infinity vs. non-countable infinity, the idea that infinity*2 = infinity, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of our belief systems are based on this idea that "group A is bigger than group B, so it's more likely to be born into group A". In truth, you weren't born as either. You were born as all of them at all times, or alternatively, none of them. The implications this has for ethics is unknown. Does it mean that making one person happy is the same as making a group of people happy? Probably not, since itseems like subjective well-being is accumulative (two dopamines > one dopamine), in contrast with consciousness itself which is not. I could be mistaken about all this, and I may be thinking about it in the wrong way. But it would seem that the notion that there is a coming Doomsday makes no sense, and it's nothing worth worrying about. (Also, side note: I'm not a believer, but there's an atheist argument that goes like this: "it's impossible that an eternal afterlife exists, since it's infinitely more likely to be experiencing IT at any given time than THIS infinitesimally-short life". But the whole concept of consciousness being non-accumulative puts this argument out the window.)

I feel like all this talk of nothingness taht Tony Parsons and the other people are talking about is missing something. Why do they never talk about love? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO83S-dptiE

@werlight Yes, totally. "Everything is exactly as it should be in this very moment". That has become my mantra. I also became aware that nothingness surrounds the space of existence at all times. Whatever happens within this space is absorbed directly into that surrounding space. I talk about it in a dualistic way but in truth they are one seamless space. Sometimes after meditation the presence of nothingness is so obvious that it feels like I could almost scoop it out of the surrounding environment. Yesterday morning when a had the experience of pure love, It felt like the top of my head was buzzing it was so strong. Very powerful! I I must have tapped directly into the love frequency. Amazing!

I'm not sure what to believe about reincarnation. Who really knows. One the one hand, maybe consciousness returns to it's original source and just recycles back as pure consciousness into some other life form. There is a lot out there to this universe for consciousness to occupy. Or maybe consciousness is just a product of existence and when the body dies, consciousness is finished also and it all ends there. But on the other hand, maybe there is an essence or spirit self or soul, or divine self that returns to the manifest realm to do more work. Some believe that enlightened teachers are very old souls that have reincarnated many times before. When we pass on could that divine self enter into a higher realm, and from there decide to either move into infinite bliss and vanish, or return to existence to do more work? Why do I have a feeling if that is the case, my divinity would choose to return to this raw existence instead of moving into the infinite bliss of nothingness? I'm experiencing something very deeply at this very moment, something that I know extends much farther than this existence, divinity. Tears are suddenly pouring from my eyes for all of humanity. I love you all

You know... The creation of death doesnt sound too godly Nor does rape or murder, hurting eachother Stomach aches or pussy farts.. decaying flesh The abonimation of a thought which was hitler? Do you really think the true god would create such a universe where pain and suffering is even just an illusion? This universe with words to me would be more closely related to Satan if anything. Who else would create such a hell hole that has endless possibilities of illusionary torment? God the nothingness you say? What if enlightenment is just another trap of Satan??? What if the darkness around us is just a bottle were trapped in contained by Satan? I do not think the true god would contain any kind of illusionary suffering in his realm, but than again... I might be wrong.

"The "Nothingness/You" was there before even the time you were not born and will be forever." How do you know that? Do you have any evidence of your statement? "it's called "awareness" that is true self and cannot be changed because it's "nothingness"" Define "Nothingness" "The brain should be firing trillions of signals to make sense of self and everything you currently experiencing that makes "you" unreal and just a mind activity" Are you really trying to solve the "consciousness problem'? lmao, How you gain consciousness and how you are always being you in the same body? can you explain this? There is a big nobel prize waiting for you.

@Grasshopper you explained it well dude, it's called "awareness" that is true self and cannot be changed because it's "nothingness". The brain should be firing trillions of signals to make sense of self and everything you currently experiencing that makes "you" unreal and just a mind activity. The "Nothingness/You" was there before even the time you were not born and will be forever.

+ What about trying 1h meditation on sunday? I can´t stress enough how important the lenght of the meditation is sometimes. Eventhou everyone also leo in his videos says it is ok to do 10min / 20min for beginners , which is better than nothing , 20min is also nothing compared to say a 2h meditation...Inrease Lenght is Strongly advised for the "next step" +also try different meditations to spice it up and learn about the different inner "channels". Try Mindfullness / Try "Do nothing" or "nothingness" / Try body Scanns/ Try mantra-meditation ...and if you are adventurous Try "Strong Determination Sitting" to really step it up !! Here again 20min are NOT enough!! On my first SDSitting the first 20min-30 happend nothing i was only bored and my back hurt .... only after that i had an experience i wouldnt want to miss to say the least... Cheers

In my journey trough this topic for now, I have discovered that you can experience nothingness and that a good thing to know in your daily life. But you have to take some role to be effective in this reallity and its okay as long as you don't consider it that this role is the only one you have. You can change it or revert back in to the nothingness to reboot your believe system.

My simplest understanding is that they are not at all the same thing, they actually seem to be on entirely different fields: Enlightenment = Being one with the "true" self, understanding our nothingness, oneness, and wholeness that is a part of being. Spiral/Graves = Our understanding and empathy, toward aspects of our lives/society/community.

No, thoughts and senses ARE the only reality. They literally ARE what reality is composed of. The idea of an external reality outside of immediate perception is just that, an idea. Thoughts are real, but the stories they tell are not. The existence of an external reality is one such story and should be treated with much skepticism. Maps are the stories thoughts tell. The territory is raw sensory perceptions, including the sensation of thoughts (but excluding their stories). In addition to the above, the territory is also your true existential nature: consciousness, pure empty awareness, Nothingness, and/or Absolute Truth. There are many labels we can use for it. But this awareness is not a sensory perception or a thought or an object at all.

And pure being and duality and enlightenment are all coupled to the ground state of nothingness? Is that the Oneness? The singularity?

That's interesting! The reason I asked about the void was, Once when I was meditating I experienced pure being. There was just a silent essence of myself. Just floating in infinite silence. Very peacefully. Blissfully. I had a whisper of a thought to totally let go and merge into that blissful silence. Than I disappeared into nothingness. I became non-existent. I only realized that after I returned to that state of pure being and silent bliss. After that experience happened I thought to myself, becoming the void is nothing to be afraid of because you don't exist when it happens. When I referred to other perceptions, I was eluding to perceiving higher realms. I wonder if those higher realms surround us always and we are actually occupying then now. And during sleep we sometimes directly access them. Also when we pass on we go back into the higher realm. From there we chose (as pure being) to come back again to the manifest realm (reincarnation) to work on ourselves and to help others in their journey. It's all or none, so to speak. Have we all decided to be here by choice? Do we all know in our hearts what we truly are, even though we may not be obvious from this point of view (the manifest realm). But everyone here is trying to remember what we truly are. Something bigger is driving all of us on this search. Who knows? Whatever it is it's way beyond the thinking mind.

So ive come to the realization internally that i cant find michael, michael is just a thought, and even writing in this context is weirding me the fuck out! Or rather the feeling of weirding the fuck out is arising, totally becoming disidentified with.. well.. who "I" thought was me. Having a hard time going to bed, each time "me" comes back to the foundation of nothingness or the realization michael doesnt exist.. eerie as shit might one say. A sudden gasp of air or shock arises within the body, like "michael" is dying the emotional reaction now while writing is sadness and depression but no identity is experiencing it.. wwwweeeiirdd..and the realization that.. uhh michael was never there ever.. sad hurt pain cry anger .. hate ... go away This one is trying not to wig out.. sleeping next to whatever my daughter is.. a thought perhapps.. deep deep pain Anyways... will one wake up tomorrow? Am.. "I" dying? Scared ..if not than.. wtf is this shock and gasps for? Realization of non existance but was just illusion? Tripping?