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Brad warner talked about this. “nonduality” wasn’t really a thing 2500 years ago. the thing the Buddha was saying doesn’t exist is what we would call ego. Zen and Advaita began the true self doctrine about a thousand years after the Buddha died

Unfortunately not on youtube, but on audible: Shift into Freedom by Loch Kelly One of my favourite practical books on nonduality so far

Thank you, I appreciate. I also appreciate the time you took to have a more detailed answer in my journal where I go into more depth of why I feel hesitant with Turquoise. I agree, I always felt like Turquoise felt more vague compared to the other spiral stages since there isn't as many examples of Turquoise and because most of the examples that are there if I remember correctly had to do with nonduality, meditation, spirituality etc. while the other stages had examples in spirituality, economics, media, pop culture, etc. And that's understandable because the world has yet to evolve that much. I guess that's another thing that I'm coming up against where I feel like *let's not fix something that isn't broken* in reaction to growing from yellow and green because humans grow with their environment and influence their environment to grow and vice versa so it feels like I'm trying to adapt to something that doesn't really exist yet on a wider scale. I was using the spiral much more so to track my growth over the last few years and I also find myself hitting against a wall to where even though I resonate with green and yellow, I have worked through my own kinks and limitting beliefs to where I don't really resonate with the excesses and unhealthy manifestations associated with the stages, hence why to peg myself more accurately, I have been focussing on lines of development instead and taking that information loosely. As for the hardcore spiritual work, I guess for me it would be good to figure out what degree of spirituality works for me and that I find fulfillment in which can change as I move into different stages of my life. And if that's not what I'm authentically into, that's perfectly fine but I am seeing myself getting back into my own sense of spirituality and spiritual practices lately. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking of Leo's video on The Ultimate Guide To Happiness - How Happiness Works and how he goes into different things you should think about regarding your preferences on having a happy life. If I remember correctly, there was a part of the video where he mentioned that for most people, meditating in a cave for days and not using your mind isn't the path to happiness and that while this works for hardcore monks, for him specifically he needs more intellectual engagement and creativity than just meditating because or else it feels like he's just sitting there like a vegetable. I agree. I don't think that I'm trying to "win by developing as much as possible." I can see the value in all of the stages and if I stagnate at yellow, that's perfectly fine by me. Moving up the spiral isn't inherently good. Hell, I think you can even stagnate in the lower stages and so long as it's healthy manifestation of that stage, it's all good. But while I don't think there is anything wrong with staying at a stage and enjoying where you're at, I just wanted to check in and make sure that it's not coming from a place of complacency or demonization of a higher stage because of biases I might have of it.

Not sure if someone have posted this before but it's a nice illustration.

Context for what started this. Quotes from the person I was conversing with: "no you wont. spare us from this demonic wisdom. eastern mysticism=divination of the self. the same old trick. same as nihilists/atheists. same as marxists/anarchists. same deception as in the garden of eden. God is not subject to nature or nature itself. and certainly is not in us. we can become Gods in Christ, but thats a totally different thing. it requires humility, the underlying spirit of the east is pride. its sad that people arent gifted with the dicretion to discern all that. i guess thats why today eastern religions and new age are so ppular in the west. people want self divination not a relationship with a personal God and a concept of sinning/obligations." "calling it demoning is exposing it for what it is. demonic, luciferian, satanic, the spirit of pride, the spirit of revolt, the spirit of misotheism. it is what it is. same underlying principle. i'd advise reading the wonderful autobiographical book of klaus kenneth "born to hate reborn to love". he got very deep in your easter "spirituality stuff". so deep that they even made him a guru, had out of body experiences, travelled through walls and whatnot. and yet he sadly discovered all these were not of divine origin because they came from a spirit of pride and "self help". read the book, it will be an eye opener." I said to explore eastern spirituality as a starting point over western spirituality because from what I know, eastern culture got a lot closer. Reading the summary of the book, there seems to not be any conflict. I'm honestly posting because I am so confused and the person isn't really being helpful to me to understanding this. I've also had numerous occasions of people calling this kind of stuff satan and demonic before. The line of thinking really boggles my mind.

Also the whole idea of the "true self" and the "false self" seems like another duality, under non-duality isn't the false self also the true self (or at least within it?)

If it's close to nonduality then it is no longer a religion. Buddhism can be a religion or it can be advanced sprituality, depending on how it is done. For many folks in Asia Buddhism is just a religion, not nonduality.

That is always a possibility, but contradiction is a feature of nonduality.

Were the Greek gods just a concept or metaphor to allude to the divinity of all things much like in Hinduism and all their different gods? We know looking back that there are enlightened people from that time such as Heraclitus also with the Eleusinian Mysteries.

Loosely. Yes, of course. 0, 1, 2, and even 3 are rather special numbers. 0 is the ground. 1 is the unity of all things. 2 is the duality of forms. And 3 is the count of 0, 1, and 2. But in the end numbers are just one way to look at reality. Don't give numbers too much importance as the scientists do. You could look at reality in a completely non-numerical way. Don't make numbers into your God. Sure it is. I have episodes about duality and its importance. But also remember that duality and even nonduality are one lens to see reality, and you can look at reality in even more advanced ways.

Leo, and guys, have you ever attended this conference? What do you think? Are you going this year? Leo, will you have something like this in the future? When are we going to meet you in person? Thanks for your feedback https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/sand18-us/register-sand18-us/

So, I don´t know how this happened but I got seriously "spiritualy" triggered (if you can call it this) by last week video "Skepticism & Nonduality" which was posted on the blog. Once it happened I had to turn on the lights and go do something to distract myself because I experienced a change in perception (i got scared). In the minute 27:30 to 28:00 Leo talks about how when you doubt about fantasy and real world, you come to a point when you realize there is no real criteria to diferentiate between real world and fantasy. Well once he said this (he said it so fucking serious) , I suddenly experienced a change of perception, I suddenly got a "fear of perception"( that I like to call) which i tend to had sometimes when I used psychedelics the first time and I dont know what was happening (but was happening something that it seemed real but couldn´t be). I also had experience this a couple of times with meditation, but definetely in a much more "soft" way. Also, I dont know why but when I watch "mind-fucking" staff at night, I am a lot more sensitive to it, like a 400% more than If i have watched this video in the afternoon at 16:00. Well, something very similar happened this time, but luckily I was able to distract myself fast and turn off the video. I dont know what would I happen if I watch this on drugs (by the way, I had not taken anything recently, not even coffee :D) I want to congratulate Leo for this, holy shi** you are a great "communicator" of mind-fuck stuff dude. I can watch hundreds of related videos of spirituality etc and none of them has literally triggered me fear just "talking" in any way ever, this is something to be valued. Be advised to everyone else if you haven´t watched the video yet xD.

How do you know? Do you speak from personal experience? (sorry, heard that one somewhere before ). Or is it deduction from cases you think are enlightened and who still suffer? There is a path beyond Enlightenment to stabilize this freedom from suffering, but the tools to do that are given for the first time WITH Enlightenment (peak to plateau to permanent). And most "Enlighenments" are just Awakenings with remnants of separate-self hijacking the newfound Nonduality. And yet, the amount of bliss and release from the suffering of the self-contraction that resting in True Being (or Awakened infinite nondual timeless Awareness) brings, once it has become accessible, is astonishing. And that bliss and force of True Being has the potential to stabilize that in plateau to permanent. These statements of yours are in contradiction to roughly 2 millenia+ testaments of beings who have realized their True Being. Suffering is the "rubber band" that makes separate-selves return to their True Being. Hamster-wheels until the original condition is restored. Suffering is what guarantees that no being is lost in the illusion of separation forever. The longer one chases states/experiences/whatever, the longer the hamster-wheels spin. One could even say that the separate-self IS suffering/resistance/contraction (Adi Da called the ego self-contraction). Because one of its main essences IS the suffering/contraction/localization/resistance to what is. Suffering IS the ego IS the separation/separate-self. I can tell you from my own experience that it is felt exactly as that (self-contraction), which becomes obvious at some point on the path, as contractions in the head and body. When these contractions/solidities (mainly in the head at the end in my case) fully dissolve and drop, the boundless field of consciousness becomes infinite and truly nondual. It is such a relaxation of tension/contration/localization/constant-background-contraction/"baseline-suffering". It feels like vast-spaciousness, nondual, limitless, so free and open. Bliss itself. And honestly, every being not living from this obviously and inevitably suffers, is in the claws of the merciless self-contraction. This becomes then totally clear once one has experienced this dropping of the self-contraction, which then creates compassion. Which stabilizes (paradoxically) Awakening and Nonduality even further. That is the beginning of boundless vast Non-Duality (not yet Enlightenment), in which Awakened nondual Awareness ripens (Roger Thisdell stage 4 to stage 5) towards Enlightenment, or the full dropping of anything separate, truly becoming Infinite Being. Here the bliss starts flowing, and the path starts showing itself to itself. Fueled by the bliss of True Being, which already starts giving a powerful attractor point starting here. Selling the bliss of vast nondual limitless spaciousness at the River PS: And for the "trying" to dissolve suffering. Yes, trying doesn't work. The dissolving of suffering/self-contraction is the case once it happens. Until then, while trying, there is suffering.

The main course of Nonduality just ain’t as tasty without the appetizer of Duality. Not to mention the dessert of “no one did all that seeking to go absolutely nowhere.”

It's a thought provoking subject for me Can people that have achieved nonduality experience duality again? I have 2 views on this. 1. Like working out, when you stop you lose your gains. One would presume that achieving non duality and then quitting the practices that got you there in the first place would cause your ego to redevelop itself once again, slowly and then at once you would lose non duality, and fall back into duality. 2. But then the other side of the story would suggest that once you've understood it, there isn't going back, despite stopping spiritual practices, since its a reality that you've grasped and then it's something you can't forget, since you see it working through everything. i haven't the slightest clue as to which one to go with. Share your thoughts

But kidding aside, this is the Zen version of the key stage from going what some call Nonduality/Buddhism/rodents to Enlightenment. Beginning Nonduality is still in the dream, a subtle self merged in unity with the visual field, exchanging the dual dream for the nondual dream. But still a dream. When this Unity-self gets thinner and thinner, more and more transcended (Thisdell stage 4 to Thisdell stage 5), then: Everything - "every vestige of self-awareness", or any subtle I-feeling/I-thought/duality (all subtle illusions) have to be seen through and transcended with automized high-speed awarenes (speed, because these illusions arise extremly fast towards the end) and familiarity (strength, because there are some very subtle "feelings" and other arisings that constitute the separate-self) with these subtle obscurations. Speed & Strength of Awareness (courtesy to Frank Yang). And that has to be done automatic, no doer/agent doing it anymore ("Nonmeditation Yoga"). And then at the end it can really break open, in a way that can't be anticipated: You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. Literally. Their essence. Before that stages, afterwards nowhere to go... Infinite Being.

Very well said. Duality and nonduality are two sides of the same coin. Reject one side, and you inevitably reject the whole coin... and guess what, reality can and will not be rejected. The sooner you realize this, the better. 💯

And not the absolute truth?

Reality/True Being has the potential of infinitel intelligence. So is is infinite intelligent. Our universe alone can sustain mathematics with which infinite dimensions can be calculated/simulated/described (4 dimensional worlds, 5, n, n+1, non-euclidian, hyperbolic, and what not). Anything that can be done in this universe has to be a potential in Infinite True Being (and much more). Same with life. True Being is not a dead Nothing. Every potential and intelligence we see must be inherent as potential in Infinity. "It" True You is that which is aware, and that which understands and creates all, maintains all, and it is THAT which does all understanding. What else could manifest the show? And be aware of it. Realize it, and you will have these facets all at once. Why do you create a duality between True Being, then Intelligence, then life, then infinite, the flow, and all the other stuff. Hasn't it been written many times True Being/Absolute is infinite (not finite), and has infinite potential? Infinity easily fits into True Being. All of the various infinities mathematics can describe. Buuut the path to realizing that Infinite True Being is first getting rid of anything finite, and limitations, and filters/dualities/lenses of perceptions... because these cloud the realization of "the" Infinite True Absolute Being. Neti Neti. Impersonal. No duality via filters/centers/contractions of the separate self. And then looking what remains, what is always there. "Bombing" oneself to boundlessness and nonduality, or whiteouts, (or what not) via psychedelics doesn't not dissolve these last filters/centers/contractions fully (at least I have never seen one case). Not enough time & clarity in these states. This dissolving of filters/centers/contractions has to be done with "on-board-means", not only external devices. It is the price the universe demands, transcendence of the little ego. Like, at least getting rid a little bit of the annoying bug as entry ticket to the Absolute, so to say...

@Leo Gura Does "alien" spirituality feels like a more synthetic or sci-fi in comparison to the organic ordinary nonduality?

On an Absolute Level, "it" or better True You is solipsistic. Alone and infinite. True You/Infinite Being is "alone" because "it" is infinite with nothing possibly outside of it. But that is True You/True Being. And someone who is not enlightened doesn't (by definition) know the difference between the current identity and True Being, or else he/she would be enlightened and no longer be asking these questions... So talking about Solipsism and God is just counterproductive when talking with beings who have not realized their True Nature. Because they will project their ego on the concept of God or Solipsism, no other chance. First become Nothing (no separate-self), then you will be everything (Infinite Being) - Thisdell stage 4, becoming Thisdell stage 5/Enlightenment. But better not project a little separate something (illusion-separate-self) on everything (Roger Thisdell stage 3 "Godmind"). Or: I am God imagining everything. That makes Thisdell stage 3 a cul-de-sac, no way forward to stabilize Awakening in daily life and ease the suffering. Which is exactly what we see here, with a few added ETs. Is Infinite Being not enough? Does it need to be called God? As I have written several times, I don't really like the pointer God, because it is normally loaded with other meaning on top. God = omnipresent, infinite, timeless/eternal/immortal, creating/manifesting/imagining the whole gig: Same for True Infinite Being. One without a second. But all the stuff projected on top of it when using the pointer God instead of Infinite Being, the one without a second, is often not for the faint of hearted. It anthropomorphizes Infinite True Being/Reality with properties and intentions that are just not there on the most fundamental level, and then proejcts it on the illusion-ego/illusion separate-self. "I am God". Only very few can truthfully say that, because most have not realized their True Being and can't tell the difference to ego/separate-self. And those who can say that truthfully and not fall for the illusion normally don't talk like that, because they know from their own practice it is not beneficial for beings with the ego/separate-self illusion not fully seen through. As soon as one talks like that to not enlightened beings, they almost always project the properties of True Being (or God) on themselves, their separate-identity, which they still have not seen through. Because else they would be enlightened. And these separate-self-identities-arisings/illusions are that which have to be cut down/transcended for Enlightenment to happen. And using the grandiose word "God" tends to blow these illusion-arising up to cosmic proportions: "I" imagine everything. No. "Your" True Being does. But what is that? What is the constant always here True Being? Here also in Deep Sleep? Before ones birth? And if one would fully know the difference between True Being and separate-self/ego, one wouldn't talk about these topics using pointers/concepts like God/Solipsism, because it would be all clear anyway... And one wouldn't need to state I am God and I imagine everything, because.... well... TO WHOM? Well, I guess you get the point. At the level of Infinite Being one is alone. But there is no one there to feel alone, because that would be an anthropomorphic illusion arising of a separate-self WITHIN True Being. It just is what it is. And always has been. And with an enlightened being talking like that it is not necessary. Makes no sense. One sees and knows the Awakened Nondual enlightened State the "other" is in (and nobody really home), and it is clear. Imagine a discussion like: I am God! No, I am God! No, you are not! We are God! That is all illusion, starting with the words "I" and "we". Lot of talk of God and Solipsism happens on Thisdells stage 3 "God-stage, God-mind". Infinite Nonduality with separate-self/remaining identity/ego not fully seen through". It is contradictory, not stable, with lots of illusions still going on. And that is presupposing its done from real nondual states. Most of the time, its done from not nondual states, just from the conceptual level. And from there, it is more insanity than anything else. The discussion then goes like: "No, small you is not God. Big You, True Being, is. But first find out what that is before talking about God & Solipsism". And because of all these contradictions that doing that move includes, there is so much discussion here about these topics. Because it is not clear, but contradictory. Sometimes I use the pointer God, but normally it is not a good pointing/teaching tool. Ever noticed that very few enlightened teachers that are public talk about how they are God and imagining everything, and they are all alone and Solipsism and so on? They do, if you listen between the lines or read/see enough stuff. Sometimes even explictily. Sometimes, even complete books like the Supreme Source have been written, that even got the approval by our host as God Realization. And these enlightened teachers normally don't talk about them being God/Solipsism. Not because they are too stupid to know what God is, and what Solipsism/Aloneness on the Absolute Level means. And they do know that all is an imagined illusion happening within "their" own Infinite Being/True Being by definition. If they wouldn't, they wouldn't be enlightened. But they don't throw that in public at a poor ego to blow it up to cosmic proportions, because that doesn't help their students going from Thisdell stage 3 to 4 to 5. It usually even prevents getting the ego stage 1 to witness stage 2 to nondual stage 3. Because to get there sobre and without psychedelics, one already has to kill/transcend the ego/separate-self quite a lot... Nothing kills sobre Awakened Nonduality better than saying to oneself: I AM GOD. A "normal" identification of I am a human so and so suffices to do that... And one more thing: If Nonduality (or Buddhism) gets bashed: Nonduality is NOT automatically Enlightenment, or realization of True Infinite Being/Reality. It is Thisdells stage 3 Godmind. A boundless nondual infinite field of Awareness, with a separate-self still well and alive hijacking that! And that most Buddhist are not enlightened should go without saying.. Stage 3 Godmind. That is where one gets with psychedelics. And maybe even stage 4 a bit. But I have never seen a mainly psychedelic aficionado get to stage 5, True No Self (also nondual, but without center/separate-self-illusion, truly being the Infinite Totality/Being). Stable Nondual realization of Infinite Being in daily life. Maybe somebody knows one, would be very interested. Can't rule out that one exists, or that one wakes up just by the impulse of a psychedelic. It is just, I have never seen one. I know quite a lot that have done that with transcending/meditation of the false illusion separate self. So basically "Nonduality" and "Buddhism" gets bashed, because one doesn't know that stage 3 "Godmind"/Nonduality is not yet True Being or Enlightenment. Of course merely Nondual Realisation doesn't bring "God-Realization", or understanding that True Being imagines/manifests all of it, and that ones True Self is that. That is stage 5, or the link (Supreme Source) above. Or True Enlightenment. Psychedelics get one to Nonduality, maybe in more sophisticated cases to realizing that it is all imagined/manifested to fool "oneself". But it doesn't get oneself conforming to the impersonal infinite nondual enlightened mindstream. And that is why this "realization" is not stable in daily life. Still suffering/resisting the content of ones own True Infinite Being. "Solution": add a few ETs from higher levels of Reality, and call that higher than realizing and being ones True Infinite Being. And be proud on ones own continuing suffering/resistance towards happens within ones True Infinite Nondual Being, and declare that as inevitable. Or something like that. Well, quite a show Maya is dishing "us" up this time, isn't it Selling God&Solipsism Water by the River The Koan still is: What is the True Being of the ET at the end, really? And that of any other ET, n+1?

I grew up Christian then quickly transitioned into atheism and became a pretty hard skeptic slowly transitioning to that we can't know anything. I did find nonduality in the past year or so and I just had this deep "knowing" that this is the truth despite my critical approach to everything before. I had all these experiences that showed it to me. Yet I always have these questions of "How do I know I can trust this feeling, these writings and teachings?" Nonduality makes logical sense but that isn't inherently evident that it is the answer yet I feel this feeling of just wanting to accept it. If I accept it as truth then I come off as indoctrinated and ideological. Especially when trying to explain it to people. One person would say "The kyballion is about as correct as elmo being God" How do I know and trust a mind that constantly morphs data and hallucinates what I see? My mind could easily trick me into thinking I "know" the truth.

Interesting expression, juxtaposed with love and light, this guy just goes straight to the business.

Yes, you can't find it because True Self has no location, it is nonlocal, centerless, boundless and infinite. The whole infinite nondual field/vastness. What can be found are (bodily-) sensations/feelings like a center/solidity, imposed limitations, imagined boundaries of the visual field (imagination of boundary with somehow somatic sensation of boundary on top), and a lot of thoughts/feelings/concept of being human. Yet, all of that can be seen as an object, arising IN ones consciousness, floating in Infinite Being. But there is no short-cut. It needs practice and seeing into the nature of all thoughts (emptiness/consciousness, which makes them dissolve and cut off) and into all bodily solidities/centers has to be done again and again, since the Gestalt of the illusion reassembles itself very fast. Neti Neti, not this, not that. Or not only this or only that. It takes a long time to get to nondual states (Thisdell stage 3), where a felt fast spaciousness open up and nonduality (still with a murky self left) starts. Good news is: Beginning here bliss starts flowing when in these states just by being in them, and the path becomes truly wonderful. That is beginning freedom. Frank Yang described his Enlightenment when his two last items that didn't conform to the enlightened mindstream were realized (after a long time of removing pretty much everything before, Roger Thisdell stage 2&3&4): all bodily sensations parading as a center or solidity were gone and dissolved (head, chest,...). Just vast spaciousness without a center. the cluster of sensations/thoughts claiming to be the watching all meditation-process of shutting off each thought-arising were seen as also mere clusters of thoughts. Basically also for him the crossing over to Enlightenment, or understanding True Infinite Being/Reality/Consciousness happened when the mindstream conformed to the enlightened mindstream. Then Infinite Being/Reality awakens to its True Being in that perspective/being/mindstream. Good. That is the thorn with which to remove the thorn. But also notice that this thought ""self, I cannot find you, where are you" is again a thought (or a cluster of thoughts/sensations/feelings) claiming ownership/identity, which creates another illusion-identity. But it has to be done like that, until that is automized. Then one switches to automatic meditation (Nonmeditation-Yoga). Bon voyage Selling Water by the River

Hello! This is going to be a very drug oriented post. Psychedelics are highly regarded as being capable of being tools for personal development and getting introduced into nonduality. My first experience of the nondual paradigm was on 1mg of LSD. An absurdly high dose. I was basically on the floor most of the time but during my come down it was pure bliss in which it clicked like a lightbulb that everything is one. I didn't know why. I just knew. It took such a high dose I think because I've grown up as a highly logical and connected person to my perceived reality. Although I don't know if autism has any role in that as I was told that I am a high functioning autistic when I was young, No idea if I was diagnosed. I also expressed many attributed behaviors as a child to this. But I digress. I stumbled upon DXM in OTC cough medicine soon after graduating high school and the idea of a dissociative intrigued me so I began to experiment. I ended up going into 3rd and 4th plateau territory in which you can perceive landscapes in darkness, tons of shapes and images. I remember visually seeing time come to a halt and seeing what I perceived as God. If you decide to experiment yourself after seeing this post, beware that high amounts of dissociation can be scary if you don't know how to handle it. Its also very habit forming. I had a bit of a problem for a little bit, but fortunately wasn't very hard for me to correct. Always do research! To the meat of the story: this one instance I decided to combine DXM with LSD. 300mg of DXM and about an hour in I took 500ug of LSD. I was also in a call with a friend for this. and OH BOY was it a ride. Its a very hard experience to recall. The first thing that happened was my mind went to heavily focus on the electrical sounds of my computer. Almost like I was tuning into it. It was then I knew I was in for a ride. Visuals and colors were cycling on everything I saw, the colors blended like a smooth gradient, the visuals like the tracers were SO intense that I felt like I could create my own reality as if my hand was a paintbrush. I remember perceiving the universe being built up from its most fundamental form up. It was as if LSD made me hyperfocused on my perceived reality but DXM was the key I needed to take my mind out enough to really let the LSD lead my mind. I remember talking to my friend about reality once I was able to get myself together to talk and I was in awe at the sheer infinite scale of reality and I just started laughing and said "IT JUST WORKS" A full near 8 hours stuck to my bed and my mind like pushed me off a cliff straight into nonduality at hyperspeed. It was this trip that meditation made perfect sense to me and I questioned why I was even confused by it. It was realization after realization. It shattered what I had thought before and I spent a long time after it just trying to fathom the knowledge I had received. This trip was also when I was shown Leo's video "The magnitude of reality" and was introduced to Actualized. This sole trip was what caused my entire paradigm shift unexpectedly when I kept doing LSD before to try and understand what all these guys on these psychedelic forums were talking about. Now it all made sense. So this has made me question. We see so much about psychedelics for nonduality purposes, but can dissociatives be a tool for such too? Has anyone had any profound experiences due to dissociatives? Maybe I just found the drug combination that worked for me? But still it blows my mind to see just adding a low dose of DXM what it can do for me that high doses of lsd was nowhere near close to doing. (I have no experience of 5-meo but DMT will be soon )