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My two cents. I agree with @Spiral I think that the one who can't experience nothingness as in deep sleep is the ego. Awareness is always there. Because there's nothing to experience it seems like a gap in consciousness. But, consciousness also appears in awareness. They are not the same, at least in vedanta teachings. The ego can't experience nothingness, we believe we are the ego that's why we think in deep sleep we lose consciousness, and we think awareness is not constant. But we don't experience awareness, awareness is experiencing "us".

Yes indeed. The problem is that Leo and non duality teachers like Rupert Spira claim to know the infinity of their awareness. I can realize awareness being aware of itself but couldnt see a way to say if the present is only what is and it will be there infinitely or if Im a finite awareness localized within my organism somehow which believes being infinite awareness. When sleeping, there cant be an enlightenment experience to what I know. Thus, this awareness is not constant. Awareness beiing aware of nothing is nothing. but how can nothingness be me then?

Not dreaming is an indication of the immeasurable or nothingness. If there is wholeness and embodiment in ones daily life then dreaming can cease all together. This is the closest you will ever get to nothingness or that which is beyond words. Or that which can never be spoken of. Sleep for one with such a quiet mind Implies true and total harmony with THE HAPPENING Its really quite sacred

I've had 2 - 3 occasions where during sleep I felt extreme existential terror, and it felt like the whole world was slowly fading away. I felt like I was going into just nothingness, it felt like drowning in idk nothing. The ofcourse I would wake up and just remember the experience as a weird dream. I actually posted about one of them on here, but I think the description I wrote was too weird for anyone to comment on, so it was just a post rather than a discussion. EDIT: here is the post

So I experienced/got it ("enlightenment") (note that I is horrible incorrect but how can I else speak?). It was free movement - yoga - walking meditation - contemplation - neti neti method - bam. Two thoughts arose which would be great to discuss. Those are 1) As life from the "I" perspective is quite difficult, working on permanent awareness of nothing is the only work which can bring peace? 1.1) Can only this focus dissolve this endless illusion? 2) Who am I asking? Who is this "I" asking ? 3) So noone has done nothing ever..!? 4) Why are there teachers and books etc. about that? "Everyone" who gets enlightend knows that there is actually no one to teach. In teaching they´d succumb to their "I" perception and its desires of whatever sort. So people who live within society and are enlightened try to make this dream as nice as possible for "them"? As there is nothing like "a person", "my" enlightenment is the only real one but another person will say:" no my enlightenment is the only real one", why would he say that? Why would the experience talk to the "I" perception to have an interaction between them? 5) What´s the reason for this thing called "perception, experience, nothingness perceiving the perceiver/ being the perceiver- status)? 6) I am Confused/Shocked/Freed and I feel like someone who was forced to watch 10 years of television straight without blinking.

abre los ojos. What are you? A body? A pair of hands? Fingers? Legs? Toes? Knees? A nose? A mouth? A set of teeth? A tongue? A pair of black pupils? A penis? A vagina? A nosehair? A snot bubble? A moving body? A heartbeat? A vocalization? Touching? Tasting? Smelling? Seeing? Hearing? Thought sensations? A gross body? A subtle body? A causal body? Consciousness? Awareness? Attention? How about a conceptualization? A mind? A brain? A thought? A symbol? A "you"? A personality? An INFP? An Enneagram 7? A life path number 8? Gregarious? Shy? Ambitious? Lazy? Lovable? Unlovable? Perfect? Defective? An ego with a past and future? A spiritual ego? An asshole? An entity behind the eyes? God and the million other names for God? Labels upon labels upon labels. A mass of labels you desperately try to hold together. A mass of labels you are hard-wired to defend. See through the labels, and nothing's left. Go watch some TV. Look at the people on the screen. Look at the movements, the vocalizations, the sounds coming from nowhere and going nowhere. Look at their pupils, and realize there is nothing behind them. They are Black Holes. When you stare into someone's eyes, you're staring into the Nothingness that you are. You're staring into Life, into Death, into this. Abre los ojos. Where are these words coming from? Nowhere. Who's writing them? No one.

Who is asking this though? You glimpsed it because you we're in a state of "not knowing". This is why Leo says in the beginning that someone who's never heard of spirituality might have a good chance of having an enlightenment experience. Now you're trying to force the experience to happen again, your're trying to get "somewhere", but that nothingness is always here and right now.

Two years ago i hade a glimps of no self, of the truth it was 3-4 seconds. It was from Leos guided meditation, and one of the most incredibile ,,evants" in my life, : I listened to this meditation 10 more times trought the year, two times it brought up some anxiety and faiting like state (a begining of a entrance in a no self state (I think). Now the meditation is not working, I cant ,,go back" or evan deeper... I know that a part of me is loging for repeting the experience but I'm trying not too... When i experienced it I was scared, and radicaly shochet that I'm littelary nothing, I wasnt ready so the ,,state" lasted very short... now I would love to feel that againg, I would evan love the fear and what not, its so amazing and interesting but that ,,nothingness isnt happening anymore" However, does anybody have a suggestion witch guided meditation to listen? Leo if you read this, maybe you have some other guided meditations? Ps. Ruper Spira is one of my favourites, but his guided meditation are very bad for me, and not working at all (the ones on youtube), it's much like just talking or explaining the same stuff like in ,,normal" videos just slower... Here is the question, he has also some guided meditations on his website that are for sale, did anybody buy those, and are the different from those that are free on youtube? (are the worth buying)

@TheEnlightenedWon 1. Do you feel like you can understand 'the seeing', god, nothingness, etc further? Or do you feel like you can't go any further. 2. Is enlightenment beyond 'the dream'? Or is it the dream? 3. relating to ^^ Why does a technique in a 'dream' like meditation or yoga effect awareness so that it goes beyond the dream? 4. Is it possible for the current perspective/state of consciousness to ever loose its understand of itself? And go back into a self, ignorant of what has been realized? Can you feel that this can happen?

So this is a working theory for me right now... I'm going to try and word it the best my little pea-sized brain can... ya'll can feel free to tell me how completely ridiculous it is, won't hurt my feelings. Ok here goes: We have been conditioned from birth to believe that we live in a world of light. If you think about it, you most likely spent the first nine months of your life in complete darkness, and not until birth do we start to experience the first rays of light and whine and cry at the sheer complexity of it. It burns our little baby eyes, and takes weeks or months to adjust. From then on we are told that this is the world, and this is all there is. That we should always seek the light and fear darkness. It becomes our reality, and we have little control over that belief (at first). But it couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, we live in nothingness. We are nothingness. Our eyes deceive us, and bind our consciousness to this plane, which is ruled by light. But it is not our home. We are merely seeing through an avatar, which happens to be stuck on earth at the moment. We are tricked into thinking that we are the avatar. An avatar that lives in a world of light. One that needs food, water, and air to survive. Although, this is true for the avatar, and of course it will die without those things, the trick is realizing that this is not you. You are eternal. You are infinite. You have never had a beginning, or an end. And your true home is nothingness. And you can experience this right now. Close your eyes, or better yet go into a completely dark room and sit. Already you are one step closer to experiencing the true reality. Nothingness. Blank. Cut off from the lie that is light. Sit very still and try not to move. Then ask yourself: where are you? Are you still in the same reality you were in only minutes before? Go ahead and check. Touch your arm. Yes, the avatar is still there. It did not dissolve just because the light is gone. But wait, you aren't the avatar, right?. You aren't the body. Return to a comfortable position and remain still once more. If you are in a pitch-black room, open your eyes. Look all around without moving your head. You will notice it is all the same. Without light, your eyes are no longer being lied to. They have nothing to rest on. Nothing to perpetuate the deception. If you close your eyes again, you will notice that there is absolutely no difference in perception. Only an avatar following orders. The darkness remains constant, eyes open or closed. Now try to detach yourself from the belief that you live in a world of light. For beginners this may take practice, but over time it should become easier. Become a tiny speck in the darkness. Move through the darkness. Try to move what would be 5 steps ahead. Of course you wouldn't know whether you moved or not because you have no frame of reference, but still try. Put your intent on leaving the avatar and moving about 5 steps ahead. Stay here for a minute or two. This probably serves little purpose besides helping you to detach from the belief that you are inside your body. When there is light, it is hard to detach from the deception that your eyes create for you. Light snaps you back into that plane. In a pitch black room, we are detaching. We become one with the true reality: pure, unadulterated nothingness. Now I'm not saying that light is evil, or that it intends to deceive and trap you into this false reality. Light is merely a tool, not God. Stop serving the light as God. You are God. Your body is not God. Your body is a tool. A tool to explore this reality of light. (Sidenote: of course if you want to get really deep, everything is God, but you can't single things out) Without light, there would be very little experience on this plane. Without light, we wouldn't be able to witness the majesty of mountains and lakes, or the joy of a small child playing. We experience many beautiful things with the help of light. But we must also remember that this is not our true home. This is a false reality that we confine ourselves to. And for this reason, light is nothing but a beautiful liar.

There is no Self is the same as saying the Self is nothingness. It's not a thing, so obviously you can't grasp at it, but it's who you are eternally.

Have any of you ever had this sensation of being a drop of water that disconnects of whatever it was in, like that last drop of water when you close a tap that hangs in there for some time but eventually drop to the sink. I had it sometimes, not sure if I understand, I call it the "drop" and feels like there is something to do with my epiglottis and my uvula. Sometimes I can control them to help me breath more peacefully and sometimes this "drop" happens and its like a shinny 1 second free fall into nothingness and then I came back. Anyone had an experience like this ?

Hehehe... It's not clear to you because you haven't experienced the Absolute. No-self is just one facet of the Absolute. No-self is identical to Absolute Infinity and Emptiness. Infinity and Nothingness are identical. And of course there is no self, there is only the Infinite Self, which is Nothing, and Everything. You are God. God is Nothing. The end. There's no confusion here at all if you actually experience the Absolute fully. Buddhism = Vedanta = Yoga = Christianity = Islam = Judaism = Quantum Mechanics There is nothing to reconcile when your understanding is totally holistic and inclusive.

Thought and experience are the same. Without thought no experience. And to say consciousness is nothingness is an idea. As far as all of you are concerned consciousness is thought which determines experiences. If there was no memory, knowledge, and experiences then this would imply this nothingness. And we could say consciousness was then free of it’s conditioned/content/perspective. In actuality consciousness is everything the physical stimuli ‘senses’ and then thought being the response of memory, knowledge, and experience. This shows how you all seek new great experiences

People generally misunderstand what the word "consciousness" means. Consciousness is not mental activity. Consciousness is Nothingness. It is the "substance" of everything. This confusion happens because of the subtle assumptions of the materialist paradigm. Absolute Consciousness is what Buddha taught. It does not depend on the sense organs. The stuff that depends on the sense organs would best be called perception or experience. Yes, perception and experience is impermanent. Don't confuse consciousness with thinking or experiencing.

As part of my spiritual routine, 2 months ago I set out to understand and contemplate what the 5 senses are. I spent 20 minutes a day on average contemplating about what the 5 senses are, and where they come from. The main gist or insight I got out of those 2 months was, the materialistic paradigm is distinctly different to just mere thought, and calling it all unreal is just unfair. Idealism states that: "reality, or reality as humans can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial." While I agree that the world is immaterial, I disagree that the world is mentally constructed. My main question to people who adhere to idealism is this: If the world is mentally constructed, it should adhere to the properties of thought. Thoughts can be shaped off our own volition. We can visualise whatever we want, when we want. If the world as we know it is just a mental construct, then why can't we change the world off our own volition? Why can't we just dream up an ice cream in front of us right now? Yes you might say the world has the potential to be infinitely anything, as the world is nothingness, which is of course correct, but there is still something collapsing it to a particular state for right now! And that thing isn't just us dreaming stuff up, if it were, we would be able to control the world through imagination. And who or what even is doing the doing of mentally constructing stuff? If the world is mentally constructed, what is doing the mental construction? Or a better way to say it is, what tool or way are you using to figure out that the world is mentally constructed? The 5 senses aren't mentally constructed. The exist as real things or real phenomena. If they were mentally constructed, or if they were not real, they wouldn't exist directly in consciousness.

As far as consciousness work goes I've just been meditating for a couple of months now.I decided to read a bit of the Quran recently out of curiosity, since I'm a non-believer who was raised in a Muslim family. I'm also relatively familiar with the Quran due to having read it at various points in my life, with varying beliefs I had at the time of reading it. I'm just gonna talk about my thoughts on my own "non-dual" intepratation of the Quran. The Quran likes to talk about how those who commit themselves to God are ultimately on the right path and will be rewarded, and those who reject God will only find misery in hellfire. If we take "God" to be the "absolute" (or whatever word you want to insert here) , the nothingness from which everything comes from in your perception, then a take away from reading the Quran might be the idea that those who make a commitment to connect to the absolute (whether it be through yoga, meditation, devotion and etc) will reach heaven, a peaceful state of mind. However, those who are not mindful of and are ignorant of God will ultimately end up going through unbearable suffering (hellfire) as a result of them not connecting to the absolute. People will be trapped in suffering as a result of them not connecting to the absolute. I don't have many thoughts as to what the morality preached could mean. Perhaps the Quran is also trying to say that being charitable and doing other "good deeds" is a way to connect to the absolute, whilst doing "bad deeds" like adultery distances you from the absolute. However, the worst sin you can do in Islam (from a non-dual intepratation) is to not acknowledge that the absolute is there, and to not try to connect to it. A fundamentalist would call this sin "shirk". Shirk is the rejection of the fact that God exists, and that there is only one God. You could interpret this as meaning that the chief sin you can commit is to not recognize that all is one and that there are no boundaries between things, an ultimately non-dual teaching. Provided we are going with a "non-dual" intepration of the Quran, then we ultimately find the Quran is just repeating the same message, over and over again, since it keeps on talking about heaven and hellfire.The Quran likes to emphasise heaven and hellfire to tremendous degrees, more so than the Bible on a whole in my opinion (depends on which part of the Bible as well as though). Whether or not my intepration is separate from the authors' intent or not is unknown to me. Whatever the case, it was entertaining to read. My take away from the Quran is this: those who make the effort to connect to the absolute will find peace, and those who don't try to connect to the absolute will find misery. This is why it's important to set practices in place to connect to the absolute (Muslims like to pray for instance). So what do you make of religious scriptures? I feel as though that the Bible and Quran can only be seen in this light if you already have non-dual ideas about reality. The word "God" has different meanings to people, and it's ultimately a verbal semantic game when it comes to what you make of it. Given the fact that from a non-dual intepratation the Quran repeats the same message over and over game, it perhaps stands to reason that the Quran was written to be interpreted in the way that fundamentalists do so. But an argument about that would ultimately require an examination of history. Anyway, thanks for reading. And if anyone has a non-dual intepratation for what "Judgement Day" (the day when the world ends and every is either thrown into heaven or hell) signifies, I'm all ears.

How does that little girl in the projection realize herself as the screen prior? Well, anything that the little girl can do is only played out within the framework of the projection. She can’t get out of herself because she was never really in herself. The only she can do is to start dismantling her perceived notions of who she thought she were, and that means the entire framework within that projection (ex. Me and My World) to not be taking it personally. The distance the little girl has to jump in order to be the screen is 0. She is played out within the screen but to her it will feel like a great distance that has to be traveled “the spiritual journey” until it makes a loop back. What has changed then? Nothing but everythint? To who? Huh? If the projection is a seeker and wants to “abide” in the screen and wake up from the dream of consciousness, it has to go through a death period to experience with the body mind the prior. People say “nothing ever happened” or “there is nothing going on” or “nothingness” is because the screen has always been the screen whatever chaotic film may have been projected onto it.

I understand what you are trying to say. Yet there seems to be some kind of causality that every time you use this substance, you experience absolute infinity or nothingness. The better we understand these processes, the more target-oriented is our use of psychedelics and our spiritual practice in general.

Lol... You ARE Jesus! Jesus is Nothingness.

Last night i did around 20 minutes of kriya yoga and drifted off into deep meditation before bed. I usually do this. I experienced some shaking of my nervous system, this also happens sometimes when working with the kundalini. However this time was different. The usuall darkness ( with a hint of red) of the nothingness i dwell in during the meditation shifted. I started using a mantra ( I AM) as my mind started chattering. A few minutes into the mantra there was a clearing. The nothingness turned into a powerful shimmering golden light. There was no mind, no thought, it was so obvious, it was so clear, it was right there. I could not help but laugh and laugh. It felt like the magician showed me how the magic trick was done and i was laughing at myself for how obvious it was and how silly i had been. The laughing calmed... i meditated. It was blissfull, it was pure, i could go on forever without a problem. 15 minutes passed ( i think). I opened my eyes, i laughed some more, i spoke from the seat of my awareness. The clouds were gone. The smog had been lifted. What dominated was a presence, my awareness is what dominated the room, it was beyond my body, but my body was part of it, perhaps happening through it. It was perfect, i wanted more meditation, just to be with it. It lasted around 25 minutes in total, maybe longer, i dont know. I led down. It was over. The light as a feather state of bliss was gone... I am not sure. It felt like that was it, it just seemed so obviously the case, like i knew it. What is left is a desire to take the persuit more seriously and with more respect. Just thought i would share because i know you lot love this kinda shit, didnt know where else to go. Much love and peace to you all. xx

This is a very vague illustration and only post signs. Duality (identification with mind/body) "I am sitting here writing these words." - total identification (There is no "I am here thinking these thoughts, and my hand starts to move.) Non-Duality (identifcation with I AM, abiding in nondual (1) awareness) "I am having an argument with Lisa." non-identification with thoughts/emotions (Which one is Lisa?) Awareness is not localized to any specific place, just resting in I Am, prior to thoughts/emotions. Who is the one taking this photo? Imagine that there is no one taking this photo. That's you! Non-Existence/Prior to Non-Duality (Total Annihilation of both and seen through the dream of Existence/ No Universe/ Absolute Nothingness) ... I can't even... ^This throughout the entire Existence, complete annihilation. At this point, realization happens that there was never a world, people, or a Universe. The world is only there as long as there is a perceiver. No Existence/Consciousness, no world. This is prior to Non-duality, prior to Consciousness. At this point there are NO preferences between dual or nondual states, as these experiences come and go within the Absolute. You’re out. Zippo, nadda. Game over. These are all words and concepts and are a waste of your time. Haha I just wanted to share.

It is always so easy to say when you don't actually face the choice. When you are not facing nothingness and do not know what the consequences of the pill really are. might be that you would spit it out after all. Might be that you would regret it anyway...

The work from Gurdjeff suggests becoming aware of the different centres in oneself and then to observe negative thoughts and behaviours and basically to realise that typically we do not remember ourselves. (remembering that unconsciously our mind has all kinds of wrong ideas of who and what we are and that we are unaware of our nothingness. At this point one is supposed to work against the negative and unconscious I's by separating with an observing I. This is followed and joined by many other processes that I wont go into but you are right, I am maybe getting caught up a little too much in the theory side and there was some negativity there from myself today. Yes contemplation and self enquiry is something I try to do regularly although sometimes maybe I need to work on my closed mindedness, as some negative I's struggle to see /accept that many versions of reality and truth are co existing at the same time, within and without. I kind of see I, self and ego as the same thing. An illusion but then ultimately consciousness and being are also an illusion and then illusion is just a concept within a concept so everything is illusion but at the same time it is as real as it gets. One of Leo's quotes springs to mind.. "There is no path but only a fool doesn't walk it". Your advice is helpful. I do need to be more patient, observe my thoughts and actions more and apply the work practically without allowing negative I's to beat myself up about it. Thanks for the reply!

Yes, this part is probably missing. He didn't say it. Not all ppl who enter the monestary get to experience the no-self (nothingness). Ppl call this by different names: nothingness, everythingness, absolute infinity, Satori, Riding the Ox Backwards, etc. If you go on YT and look at Shinzen Young's 10 Ox Herding Pics, it ends with a monk (The Cloth Bag Monk) being helpful and giving to others in some way. This ending matches the clip above. That's why, even if the person didn't experience the no-self, if the person continues to be detached from the ego and be helpful to others (all is 'you' anyway), then experience of the no-self may come one day. @Prabhaker I could relate the most to Sai Baba and Shaolin monks put together. I've mentioned them here. The reason why is, both do live minimalist lifestyles, but they are able to give because they have developed themselves enough to give. They have nailed life. How can you give if you have nothing to give? We live in a different time than Siddhartha Gautama. How we give cannot be exactly the same as how he gave. Other's lifestyle have to be taken into consideration. @Ether Cool.