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It's definitely not a nothing we can conceive of... "The Nothing that I refer to has no opposite; it is the nebulous source." " "The world of objects is limited, Nothingness is not." "Absolute Nothingness, on the other hand, is limitless, pregnant with infinite potential." Those are all quotes from God is Nothingness. Obviously our reality is an illusion, in reality is Nothingness or Nothing. Okay, this is in an Absolute way. But to say that trolls are as real as the tree is non-sense. One is conceptual, imaginary or what have you and the other one has an existence outside of the personal mind. Just because they are the same in the Absolute sense doesn't make them the same in the relative one. The exist in different levels... So, are Trolls real? In Absolute Nothingness, as real as I am. In the world of objects, yes, as a conceptual activity.

@Nahm I ask because I had a 9 hour long trip (thinking non-stop in causal chains) when I ate a hash-cookie 3 years ago. The only things I remembered is that: there is much more to life than we perceive. An analogy that came to my mind was: If you see a light-tube, it's just light shining constantly. But if you record it with your phone in slow-mo, you can see that it flickers. that we cannot die, there's nowhere to go life is an infinite chain reaction infinity=nothingness When that last insight came to me, I opened my eyes and everything was understood. After 9 hours of ultra rapid thinking, the thoughts just stopped. Now the most interesting thing is: at that point I was not interested in religion, philosophy, physics, biology, nor did I know about spirituality. Let alone enlightenment. Now how can my experience be so congruent if it's unique? I've used the "kid-example" to represent a state of mind without knowledge. Could it be that everyone of us has the absolute answers within him/her?

Yesterday, I was excited. And I was so excited that I wanted it to stop. I bought the book The Mind Illimuninated and I found that yesterday, I was in stage 8 of the 10 Stages for much of the day. Maybe stage 7 or even stage 9. I remember going into this state before from time to time. I'd feel my body exploding with joy, a rush of sensations everywhere. And I have to stop the meditation because I can't help but get distracted by how extraordinary this is. Sometimes I'd get a taste of it outside meditation. I remember programming once and I was suddenly enthralled by an intense joy. It was like being a volcano, but instead of anger, I erupted with joy. I got myself some really celebratory music and thought of how amazing life was. But when I chased after it, the farther it left me. I became attached to it. I kept a story of myself in my mind about how I was "the success story". Managed to get myself from the depths of depression into now. But the thing about it is that I kept my sense of self. As Peter Ralston said, it's like associating yourself as a hard worker. It might be true most of the time. But often they'd associate the hard worker image even when they're tired and need to rest. And because of this challenge to their image, they get upset. They might associate with certain music, certain people, certain activities and more that they lose themselves farther and farther in a false identity. The thing is even if I'm generally "A success story" by that means, that doesn't mean the unconscious associations of perfection, the end of it all and similar ideas are true. When people say Buddhism teaches to let go of desire, that's rather misleading. As if we're taught to become wide eyed happy people accomplishing nothing in life. But the deeper I go, the more I realize that what's really being taught is to remove rigid desire. And to achieve a desire of flowing in something, effortless, yet still powerful. It's like realizing that desire isn't a rigid metal bar no one can break, but like a clay you can form into whatever you want to. When I let go of that image, I fell into what happened yesterday. It was tiring at the end, but it was still pretty amazing. Phabhaker told me to try Osho Kundalini Meditation for my problems with excess energy. And in the beggining, I was told to shake as my body wanted it. When I thought I'd use up enough energy, it still kept going later on. The next stage was to dance and while I imagined a kind of elegant fluid dance, my body found its way to do something pretty whacky in kicking and flailing arms randomly while throwing in some hip hop moving dance. I heard a joke before about breakdancing monks. I never thought there's a chance it could be real. Heh. I felt like natural geographic is making a nature documentary on the ceremonial human being's dance into nothingness complete with classical music. And here you see is the natural homosapien of meditative tendencies dancing the way of Kundalini. But I just told myself to keep focusing. Then I was told to sit down or stand still but I was so tired, I just lied down. But when I lied down, I felt my arms needed to move. So I punched the air. And so did my legs. Kick. Kick. WATASHI KARATE MASTER. HARDCORE XXX! Motherfucker in the face! or whatever my bad Japanese is in a horribly done accent. But the deeper I went, the more I felt myself being absorbed. By what? I don't know. It was as if I was wrapped by nothingness. Like water in a glass. But without the glass. What do you imagine when you hear the word nothing? Do you see an empty box? Pitch black? No, it's just nothing. And that can't be imagined, thought or felt. Just experienced. I read that before stage 8 are like horses going in different directions. Obviously, it's hard to move well and the direction they move will come from the strongest horses. Stage 8 is when the horses move into the same direction, but at different speeds. Some horses rush forward wanting more and the other horses resist to want a slower pace. If I want my focus to be more matured, I had to allow these horses to move as one. One practice for stage 8 was focusing on nimitta. It was a picture of a luminous round object in someone's mind, appearing naturally. I was told to let it grow naturally and was told how to. As I practiced, I noticed the nimitta changing colors. Green. Yellow. Red. They never mentioned something about that. And I moved it around a bit back and forth. But I found I can only move it subtly. I felt a strange calmness. As if sitting inside an enormous temple, seeing the majesty of its heights and absorbing it all. This lasted for about 10 minutes. They described "popping" when we got out of this Jhana state. When I got out, I felt like I heard all the sounds and saw all the sights. Nothing in particular. Just everything at once. With an expansion of awareness yet with a penetrating depth of detail. And in my mind, it was all nothing. Take a book and you'll often have ideas of it in your mind. Cultural ideas. Spiritual ideas. Memories. Likes. Dislikes. Facts. Details. History. But if I saw a book in that state, I won't see that. I'd just see the colors, the lines and the shapes. And it's like that image of it in your mind but go farther to remove what certain colors and shapes and lines mean to you. And remove how these all come together to connect into something you see as an object because even that is an idea. And when everything is removed, there is only nothing. I tried a practiced that involving noticing stillness. It told me to imagine the universe around me first and contrasting that with my breath to gain a stillness. But I already felt it. I focused on this stillness, as if hearing the silence between sounds. As I type this, I feel pretty calm and tranquil. But I can be satisfied with it because I'm not chasing after that intense joy. Maybe to get nearer enlightenment, I have to be even satisfied without something luxurious as intense joy. Or maybe I'm losing focus and just getting bored. Eh, who knows? Not that I need enlightenment right now, do I?

@Telepresent no problem man. The pointing experiment is the most revealing. It reveals..nothingness. It reveals that emptiness at center is Source for everything. You are capacity for everything. Having a turbulent day? Turbulence out there and calmness at center.

The next stage is to realize that your belief that you are at the center of things is an illusion. But even that is a story. You as a body-mind-brain don't exist. But even that is a story. What exists is reality being aware of itself, and reality is everything moving as one giant flow without distinction. But even that is a story. And Reality being itself just is you. But even that is a story. You are not a thing but the non-dual reality being itself. But even that is a story. You are the atmosphere that is aware of all the clouds moving though it, yet you are not the clouds. But even that is a story. Reality is not conceptually capturable, it is idealism. It is what is -- stripped of our thought-stories about it. It is being that. Knowing it by being it. But even that is a story Everything you see around you is not physical. It's a non-dual substance. But even that's a story. Nothing is what is conscious of everything. It's just one being. But even that's a story. Nature is nothingness. And that's what you are. It has no properties, no features. It doesn't exist or not exist. But even that's a story. Fall into the godhead. This is the ultimate nature of reality. Where there are no distinctions and you are aware you are nothing, and that everything is you. Absolute Infinity is right in front of you. BUT . . . . Need I go on? Do you see by not-seeing what I am pointing/ not-pointing to? Enlightenment is an odd sort of reading between the lines. But, yes, even that is a little story, a little hairless-monkey fairy-tale we tell ourselves to feel like we know. To satisfy our need to know, our need for certainty. Our human/egoic urge for conceptual resolution, for understanding -- that succulent, tantalizing fruit we can't resist -- like Eve not minding God and wanting to feast on such forbidden-fruit from the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. After God found out about this little fruit-picking transgression, He said, get the hell outta here and don't come back! Don't be pickin' no fruit from my Tree of Knowledge. I told you explicitly not to do this. Jeez!

@Telepresent you are the box in your avatar pic. The box is implied. Only implied. It is no-thing. IMO, you are going in the right direction. 'I am not my body' - is a big step. Currently, however, you seem to be identifying as your brain / thinking / thoughts. The next big step is becoming aware that you are not your thoughts - and then next step after that is that there is no "you" which has thoughts / no observer which observes the thoughts. There is no-thing, which we all are, through us / which has awareness. See how "we are all One"? No souls, no heaven & hell, no observer - just the one no-thing. (The one no-thing is pure love & bliss btw, yet also no-thing at all) (also, imo, it has an incredible sense of humor, and also is no-thing) To detach from your thoughts, which allows the next breakthrough, you must get started putting the focus in, doing the meditation. Continue the self inquiry. Start eating vegan. Excercising. Then you'll be feeling great. Assimilate the habit of breathing awareness 24/7 & BEING IN THE NOW. Past & future are merely thoughts in the now. Look at all things and say "that's not me".......Then try shrooms. Research it! You'll breakthrough. Continue that "path" of no path, and you're on your way to nothingness. (And it's fucking awesome, no fear, no doubt, everything makes sense, love pours out of you all day, miracles happen, birds chirp to you, water feels like a kindred spirit / best friend, people come out of the wood work with opportunities for you, funny is funnier, crazy is crazier!!! Animals will literally walk out of the woods and gaze into your eyes while you both experience - that you are no thing, Beautiful is true beauty itself, the stars pop right into place every time you look at them!, IT REALLY GETS AMAZING TELLY!! ....also...it's also no thing, plus, you'll be CRAZY!????)

@Captain Flint You should not take my example literal, the kid just represents simplicity of thinking and a minor treasury of words. Leo basically talks about infinity, nothingness and experience. Maybe it's like a puzzle, the "kid" and Leo both completed it, but the kid had one with less pieces and Leo with a lot more. The core of my question was: Is the level of satisfaction the same? And if communicated, could the kid achieve the same effect on the audience?

This website has amazing demonstrations of how infinite you are. The scale presented stops at the plank length for the small stuff and the Cosmic background radiation for the big stuff, but guess what? You - consciousness - the universe - God - nothingness - absolute infinity goes unimaginably farther in every way imaginable. The scale demonstrated here is nothing compared to the Truth of what you actually Are. Everywhere you look, everything you see, everywhere you move consists of an infinitely deep, multidimensional fractal of pure consciousness. You can go to the end of the universe, the end of time, and zoom into the the planck length of a Planck length of a Planck length and you will only find more consciousness. Consciousness is All. And You are the primary source! And everyone else - even an amoeba - is the primary source too! We are all the primary source such that nothing is the primary source. In the words of the Three Musketeers: "One for all, all for one!" This is not woo-woo pseudoscience. This is physical fact; metaphysical fact; psychosocial fact! This is fact. Period. We are Knots of consciousness folded up within 'Big' consciousness to seem like we are seperate. Do not be fooled by your own tricks. In the words of DJ Khaled, "never play yourself"! The superclusters you see toward the far end of the scale of the universe are basically gigantic neurons that help form the Kosmic Mind that we reside in. But this mind is just one mind in a sea of more minds that goes so far that it wraps upon itself to once again become you. We play around in the mind of God. God plays around in the mind of us. Kosmos plays around inside Kosmos. And what do we play? We play the game of "how did I do it?" God loves telling himself the story of how he created himself. See, Consciousness is irreducible... it is the ultimate metaphysical conundrum... it is unsolveable... except for a god. God sets up some conditions using the language of mathematics, blows itself up and then figures out how to put itself back together. It's like painting on cardboard, taking a knife to cut up puzzle pieces, scrambling the puzzle, and then punching yourself in the face to forget what the puzzle is supposed to look like. It takes an infinite being to solve an infinite problem. If it's not us, it's some other lifeform, but somehow, someway we will (re)learn how it's done. The life form that figures it out will always be Us at its core. In this way, god reforms god. Here's another way to put it: ever since the Big Bang, our universe has slowly died due to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The universe uses us - life forms - to prepare itself for its heat death due to cosmic expansion. We are how the universe thinks. We are the ones who help it understand how to rebuild and start a new bubble of inflation once the heat death occurs. Big Bang - life - heat death - Big Bang - life - heat death. And it all happens Now. Forever. Forever Now. Do you see? So who started it? Us. Who ends it? Us. Now and forever. Note the my usage of Kosmos instead of Cosmos. 'Cosmos' refers to the physical reality we observe normally. 'Kosmos' refers to the multidimensional evolving Totality of existence, encompassing not only the physical (cosmos/cosmic) but the biological, emotional, mental, psychic, and spiritual domains. On the left are neurons. On the right are cosmic superclusters. Put it together: one mind, one consciousness. All the best, TJ

No no no! You DO believe you know what you are. If you didn't know what you are, then you would not be asking these questions. An intellectual not knowing is vaastly different from a real genuine experiential not knowing. That's very important to understand. So yes of course you are still identified with something. Most likely your body and your mind, and not the chair your sitting on. A while ago Leo said in other post something like 'put yourself in an imaginary situation where you've got a gun to your head, and the person holding the gun is gonna' pull the trigger unless you honestly tell them what the hell you think you are.' Put yourself in that situation. I mean, it's fairly obvious that you're identified with the body/mind, unless you are actually awake. My guess is that your not though. Just be honest with yourself. It's very important that you try to get very clear about what you believe yourself to be. You also need to get the idea of 'reaching that nothingness' out of your head. There's no going anywhere! It's all right here, right now.

@Space yes, that's what ive been doing, you described it very clear. the problem is that I got to a point where i simply dont know what i am so i cant get that honest answer. what do i do then? if i dont know and im not enlightened yet, does that mean that i still kinda identify with something and im not aware of it? and i should try to find that something? or should i try to reach that nothingness and realize thats me?

@Ilya Sit down. Put aside all your life concerns and focus all of your attention on the inquiry for the period of time you choose. Commit to putting all your energy into it for this period. Like honestly, really commit to it. Don't be lazy. When you're mind wanders, which it will, don't judge yourself, but bring your attention right back to the inquiry. Set a simple but, more importantly, genuine intention to become conscious of what you are, believe in your intention and believe that it can be done. Really cultivate a desire to know what you are. Then, bring your attention to the present moment. Get real focused and concentrated on the present moment and the process of observation (i.e. self-observation). Take a minute or so to just observe what it is in your direct experience. Realise that there isn't anything but your direct experience. So anything else that you think might exist is just a concept. Then, ask yourself 'What Am I?'. Get a real, honest, genuine, answer. What do you honestly think you are right now. Honestly! Right now! Put aside all ideas and beliefs about what you are that you might have heard from Leo or read about on this forum. I say 'put aside' because your conceptual understanding of what you are is necessary in order to avoid wasting lots of time. But for the purposes of your inquiry, put everything aside, and start from scratch as though you've never heard of Nothingness or Consciousness or whatever. All you need is your direct experience. When you have a genuine and really honest answer about what you think you are, then contemplate it. Can this thing, a body, a thought, a feeling, or whatever, be what I am? Is this thing I am aware of what I truly am? And obviously you don't just question your beliefs once, you question them many many many times.

Well, if we define Metaphysics as the investigation of being, then it is squarely-relevant to enlightenment. The problem is anything you say will be a story existentially speaking. If it has import concerning "being being" which is what is relevant to enlightenment, it will only serve as scaffolding to help you act, think, and be better (including how you "be" regarding clinging to and interpreting beliefs in specific moments). Investigate theory all you want, just don't cling to any ideology about enlightenment too-rigidly. Don't be too mechanical or ideological across-the-board, only if a specific moment calls for this. The territory laughs at the pretense of the map. The map is acting way beyond it's pay-grade! And it duddn't even realize this! That's our problem. Let the mystical-spark of being have the last-word over thought-story or belief staking their claim over your infinite-nature. Don't let thought turn you into something that is finite and thus not infinite. This all hinges ultimately on how "you" cling to and interpret thought in specific moments. Get this wrong, and you're gonna self-sabotage in life to a greater or lesser-extent. Get this right and you'll have emotional-mastery and freedom. Then you can do whatever you have mind to do without inner-obstacles resisting. Your actions and your will can finally both unify and dissolve into nothingness.

You mean being aware of your thoughts as thoughts and not you ? Because being aware only of awareness itself and being aware of nothingness would mean you realize some kind of enlightenment experience.

@Joseph Maynor Yes, this is normal. When the monkey mind gets calmer as you are describing, you start to embody more of alpha and theta brainwaves(a calmer state) and less beta brainwave activity (mental sounds). After a while, almost no mental sounds are present. This means that you embodied a calmer state of mind. This does not mean you ridded yourself of the mind or that you transcended the mind, it just became less obvious that the mind is still in operation, because you cannot hear internal thoughts. However this is far from transcending the mind so be careful, the mind can still play tricks with you in fact after you embody a state of perfect mental calmness (no mental sounds) the mind can still play tricks with you almost 24/7. The mind uses projections from the past/future and those projections project themselves onto the now moment. Monkey mind, the mind that's not present = hearing mental sounds, past and future thoughts... The present mind = no mental sounds because it is present, still has a grip on you and controls you, still attached and still identified with the mind... No mind = no mental sounds, ability to detach from the mind on demand, ability to act arational, you can use the mind like a servant and not let the mind use you, discernment, identified with nothingness - consciousness - God - awarness, no self.... This is not some theory I have heard somewhere this is actually a timeline I have gone trough and experienced. People who think that being present with no monkey mind is the answer to end suffering and identification with the mind are dead wrong, it is funny.

That was "my" problem too. Maybe you need to talk to someone about your struggle to find out the solution. I know that the solution for your problem is to do N O T H I N G and allow truth/reality/nothingness to act on you and while it does this, sit and do N O T H I N G and stop wraping your mind around what you gotta' do. The truth isn't somewhere, it is there your only solution is to surrender to it. I have done that and i feel more peaceful already.

I never really introduced myself properly haven't I? Maybe it's time I tell you what's life been like with meditation even before. Rewind to 2012 or 2013, where I was about 11 or 12. I remember sitting in a car, the sun sitting in the sky, the trees and the cars shifting by. I was listening to a guided meditation. And I noticed they kept moving off to the next thing without me. I was too slow in focusing. I kept daydreaming about being some hero in a virtual reality game. And with fear, I wondered if I could really do all this. I was worried back then. Worried about what? Everything. I worried about my health. I worried about my future. I worried about my grades. I worried about being loved. I worried about being watched. I worried about being irrational. Worrying, worrying and worrying to the point of terror sometimes. Pretty early for a kid to be worrying about life like that, huh? Someday I realized that I had the whole internet full of advice and I found meditation. After all, the greatest lost I had back then was the lost of curiosity. I was the bright eyed kid who was somehow both the class nerd and the class clown. Often sitting upon pillows in the library. Often relaxing as I flip pages and other times running away laughing from pranks. I read things from fun facts about animals to machines. I read about the history of the Greeks to the daring lives of real life spies. I made origamis and I often drew from art books. I read stories upon stories. I was interested in about every part of the children's library. And I hoped in my heart that this sense of wonder would come back. One of the things I've often read were question and answer advice sites online — my first taste of the personal development world. I read but I never really acted on them. I even prided on just knowing them — but this was when I had to actually do them. For years along with other practices I'd meditate everyday. Or at least try to. I'd always do so in the bus to school in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon. I researched what I could on this subject and I'd practice focusing through the day and through the night. Around 14, sometimes I would lose the ability to read. All my worrying had consumed all of my brain power and what was left for me to do the thing I loved most disappeared. I remember sitting on the couch pouring over a book and desperately glaring at it to read ; but I . . . I couldn't focus. And the tears would start to come. This would add in my life an even greater obsession with the practice. There were days when I meditated 2-3 hours a day. By 15, I'd stop repeating the old practices and begin with newer ones. The closest thing to the idea of enlightenment I had was an existential depression I had when I was 15. In one of Leo's infinity videos, he'd mention that Georg Canter was able to conceptualize infinity or non duality but because he did not experience it directly, it drew him to madness. I might have experienced something similar. I asked myself one day : Why do I believe this exists? Take any object. Why do I believe this chair exists? Because I see it. Why do I think what I see exists? Because other people have always told me. Why do I believe that? And I understood — there was nothing to add foundation to that. I've read in history books before that people could experience dangerous things because humanity was ignorant. Doctors didn't use to know that washing their hands before surgery was needed. They used to have wallpaper that was radioactive. They used to think sugar was healthy. I was on too doubting much of reality here — if I had Leo's videos, it would allow me to be more open minded in ways that can help me. But without the grounding of direct experience — this experience of nothingness enligtenment wasn't calming — it was strikingly, absolutely and fucking terrifying. Somewhere I decided that there really nothing else to it. Beliefs have to start with faith somewhere. Every belief does. And after reading some online advice, I spent more time in my life doing to answer questions than just theorizing. And realizing and acting upon slowly that my time spent alone too much was one of the major reasons I was suffering. All the time spent in mindfulness would add up — and soon I can focus on something I find interesting for hours. As well as make goofy and overdramatic jokes with other people like I did as a kid — heh. I had a favorite Buddhist concept after all. That was beginner's mind — it is to act as you know nothing about the subject. And be open to observe what else could happen. To see the subtle change of breath. Its movements. The small changes in the mind, thoughts and emotions that happened every second. It was impermeance. And if things were always changing, then there was always something interesting to learn every second. But also the idea that truth changes because the world is changing. . . And so beliefs had to be change as well. My awareness would grow exponentially. Growing and growing and growing to the forefront of everyday life. I've never been so amazed and awed by the smallest things — when you see everything as if for the first time. I used this in meditation. . . but it also became a way of life..

That's good, being aware of nothingness, nice

I think your problem is with the word 'nothingness'... Not sure in what context you came across the statement 'Nothingness is self aware' and for me just this statement alone doesn't mean anything at all. But I can see what the author would have meant and I can elaborate on it. What is a 'thing'? It can be anything that can be witnessed by your senses or in the consciousness. By this definition, a thought is also a 'thing'. So, you, who witnesses any thing cannot be a thing. It is a no-thing . The word no-thingness is probably more clear than nothingness. You keep trying to conceptualize who you are... Anyway, if you think your inner voice is self-aware, thats ok for now. Just go ahead with what you are practicing, if it is working for you..

@Shanmugam but yet the teaching says that Nothingness is self aware. Than why can't my inner voice be self aware?

@ajasatya then if someone who is Enlightened is so sure that the Ultimate Truth is pure Nothingness and knowing it is so relieving and beautiful why does not he suicide and end the physical body and ego completely?

@egoless Don't try to look for pure awareness... You can never find it as an object because that is the subject itself.. Everything is happening in the field of consciousness, which is the subject.. The problem doesn't arise when you keep witnessing the thoughts... It only arises when try to do something, like contemplation of concepts such as nothingness and awareness... When it happens, witness the thought that contemplates.. Just observe those thoughts as they occur with full attention. Once you try to contemplate on such concepts, you are moving away from being a witness. Your consciousness is like the sky and thoughts are like clouds.. Witness the contents of your consciousness just like witnessing the moving clouds.. When a thought such as 'is this nothingness? how can I find nothingness' arises, it is also a thought, it is also like a cloud in the sky of consciousness. Recognize that thought for what it is, witness that thought passing by and be curious about what your next thought is going to be.

Yes it helps me if I identify myself as what Enlightent people call ego. ( for me it's my inner voice saying "I" who is self aware, has inner hearing and inner sight) But as soon as I begin to look for that pure awareness Nothingness which is supposed to be my true self I become confused and I feel even more duality then before.

I have noticed when my mind goes elsewhere and not on what im reading. Like in meditation when im trying to read nothingness ? I only notice that I have been daydreaming instead of paying attention quite late sometimes

@Shanmugam who has the free will then? How can Nothingness have free will if it is the opposite of everythingness the it should be all predetermined right? To fill the everythingness gap within the Nothingness

@Leo Gura Life started as a potential out of nothingness along with an infinite number of other possibilities.