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Only looking within yourself can be a space for deeper transformation.

When I came on her 8 years ago, it was what I was looking for. And there was a bit of that in the first year or so. But what really draws me here is a much more base-level drive... to get into intellectual sparring matches. I don't see this place as a space for deeper transformation, as that requires a softer container. I see it as an intellectual debate club where I can sharpen my sword and learn to fence better.

Ok. So you didn't for example have a sudden spiritual awakening during meditation that transformed how your mind operated on a day to day basis? For me, the difference in health was absolutely palpable, and the change was for all intents and purposes mental (except I had been withdrawing from serious weed abuse at that time, which was a catalyst but not the transformation itself). Then after that, I remember eating a pizza and I was looking for that usual spike of excitement when eating it, and it was to my surprise not there. That made me start going from sensory hedonism to eudaimonia like you're describing, doing things that lead to greater stability and clarity of mind, things that increase adaptive capacity, things that elevate your baseline rather than creating temporary spikes, gradually aligning the body with the new state. The change in consciousness revealed which behaviors were conducive to that state and which were detrimental, merely through feeling.

Overall back and forth on certain topics such as what we talk about here is in the end no good.. There is no discovery once You realize that the views betwn the participants are different, and continuing it does not make change.. and for sure no one has gotten spiritual progression via discussion on a level of transformation, since intellectual understanding does not make transformation, transformation is nothing of the old lives on. Yes it may help one decided on a path in life, or inspire someone to investigate other ways to think or view a subject, I'm not denying that, but that is not transformation, and that what Spirituality Is all about!

Very interesting - I agree with the hollowing out of the vertical dimension. But what kind of structure are we talking of here? It can be structurally facistic even if the justification shifts from biology (quantity) to metaphysics (quality). If it has a rigid hierarchy justified by metaphysics, obedience to that hierarchy as cosmic order, and an elite at the top who are above accountability - we have spiritual facism. I think the issue comes from collapsing the vertical into the horizontal. The vertical dimension is something we are meant to orient ourselves towards - the North Star. But we don’t become the North Star or claim ourselves or the structure as it. Vertical principles can purify the people in power, but shouldn’t be used to justify the power they claim as “the cosmic / sacred order”. There is divinity (oneness, source) and some sort of order in the universe that enables us to exist - but this doesn’t translate into divinely ordaining a particular structure or group of elites as such. Legitimacy should remain institutional, not spiritual - no leader can claim metaphysics as political authority. This doesn’t mean vertical principles or spiritual strength isn’t seen as a virtue or worthy trait for stewardship. It just means the structure of governance should account for selecting for it and removing anyone who fails to live up to it. It shouldn’t be rigid like the Hindu system of old where Brahmins ruled due to cosmic order ordaining them as the highest. Civilization works when horizontal power is guided, limited, and elevated by vertical principles - in a healthy tension. This is abusing the idea of the vertical with the horizontal by claiming one impose itself on the other. If the vertical is about principles and the horizontal is about the structure - then corruption happens if we collapse the two and pretend the structure IS the principle. Vertical truths are being used as horizontal justification. You say we should be guided by transcendent principles - but if one of those are accountability or humility - then the structure would reflect that by having checks and balances. And a rigid structure in which one is beyond accountability due to being “spiritually higher” avoids that. This is where secularism is corrective to any potential tyranny (even spiritual tyranny) but this doesn’t mean a society must be spiritually hollowed out. Secularism shouldn’t need to overextend itself to mean a secular society - which is what’s happened in the West as a overcorrection. The balance is a secular state + spiritual society = civilizational health. The governance structure can remain secular to prevent tyranny and hold power accountable (which is principled) whilst the society remains spiritually alive by cultivating (culture) vertical principles. The important part is that the structure should prevent anyone from claiming divine authority over others - preventing the vertical from being weaponized. Islamic civilization at its best actually struck this balance quite well. AI: ”Islamic civilization separated the source of moral authority from the machinery of governance. The spiritual realm — scripture, law, ethics, scholarship, and community norms — was carried by the ulema, culture, and society, not by the ruler himself. The ruler couldn’t claim to be divine, infallible, or metaphysically superior. His job was worldly: administering justice, managing taxes, keeping peace, protecting borders. Spiritual interpretation and moral authority were outside the state and distributed across independent scholars, jurists, and institutions. This prevented metaphysics from being monopolized by political power. At the same time, the civilization remained deeply spiritual because the culture, ethics, law, and intellectual life were permeated by transcendence. Society was spiritually alive even though the state’s power was administratively grounded. The vertical (divine law, moral principles, spiritual purpose) guided the horizontal (governance, administration, institutions) without fusing into an authoritarian theocracy. In short: the state was practical and accountable, while society and leadership were spiritually oriented — a balance that kept the political structure flexible while keeping the civilization morally anchored.” —————- I think a key distinction to clarify this: Transcendence ≠ Transformation Transcendence is beyond form, ego, human limitation. Transformation is what happens within form when we orient ourselves towards the transcendent. We are shaped by the vertical - we do not become the vertical. If we were to become the transcendent (enlightened or just pure light), we would no longer be in form but in the formless. Transformation happens precisely because we remain in form - orienting ourselves towards the transcendent. The key error is collapsing the vertical into the horizontal. Though the vertical is our source and we are not separate from it (conciousness, oneness, God) we are distinct from it. As long as we are in form, we can only ever trans-form within form, towards the transcendent that is beyond form. Form is a journey and relationship, whilst going back into the formless is a homecoming. - The Vertical is the Absolute Reference Point (God, the Good, Truth). Constant eternal. - The Horizontal is the Field of Application (the self, society, politics) in dynamic motion toward the reference point. The moment the Horizontal declares "I am the Reference Point” the system shatters into either delusion (spiritual ego) or tyranny (spiritual facism). The moment it declares "There is no Reference Point” (secularised society) it drifts into relativism and nihilism. If the vertical is about the North Star and the horizontal is about our transformation towards it - pathologies show up when: - New Agers claim “I am the North Star” (spiritual narcissism) - Evola/Theocracy claims a king or superbeing to be the North Star (tyranny) - Hollow Secularism denies or ignores a North Star to exist (nihilism) The healthy balance is orientation towards, not identification or denial of - the vertical. —- I was talking with AI about this and came upon this: “Islamic metaphysics and political structure embody the distinction between transcendence and transformation with remarkable precision. Tanzīh: God is beyond form Preserves transcendence. No collapse into rulers, saints, or egos. Tashbīh: God is near Allows transformation. The human can be transformed toward the divine without becoming the divine. Human beings reflect the vertical without ever embodying it. We are in form. We can be shaped by the vertical, but never collapse it into ourselves. Islamic governance mirrors this metaphysics: • rulers are not divine • scholars do not wield political power • law is above all • no caste of metaphysical aristocrats • accountability is a sacred duty Islamic civilization keeps transcendence above the political sphere — while allowing society to be transformed by it. This is the principle secular governance was trying to imitate: Humility built into structure. Accountability as a transcendent principle. Islam contains Tanzīh (God's incomparability) and Tashbīh (God's similarity). It provides a counterbalancing theological and philosophical framework. · Tanzīh guards against the collapse. It ensures the Vertical remains Vertical. God is Wholly Other. No creature, no ruler, no saint, can be God. · Tashbīh allows for the relationship. It makes Transformation possible. Because God is also "nearer to you than your jugular vein," we can know Him, love Him, and be shaped by His attributes.”

Here’s a polished and rigorous version of my original post; enjoy if you’re a nerd: Psychogenetic Development: A Tripartite Model of Ontogenetic Unfoldment Prolegomena: The Archetypal Structure of Psychological Maturation The trajectory of human psychological development follows an archetypal pattern encoded within the genome yet activated and shaped through environmental interaction. This essay proposes a tripartite model synthesizing the insights of Freud, Adler, and Jung into a coherent developmental framework corresponding to three successive stages of ontogenetic unfoldment: the Freudian Stage (primary attachment and instinctual relating), the Adlerian Stage (social adaptation and meaning-making), and the Jungian Stage (individuation and self-realization). Each stage builds upon and presupposes its predecessor. Pathology at any given stage creates developmental arrest, requiring conscious therapeutic work before progression to subsequent stages becomes possible. This model accounts for the observation that premature spiritual awakening—absent integration of earlier developmental achievements—inevitably results in what contemporary psychology terms "spiritual bypassing": the use of transcendent states to avoid rather than resolve foundational psychological wounds. Stage I: The Freudian Foundation — Primary Attachment and Instinctual Relating The Formative Crucible The first decade of life constitutes the formative crucible within which the fundamental patterns of psychic life are established. During this period, the child's nascent ego organizes itself in response to two primary factors: (1) the quality of attachment bonds with parental figures, and (2) the behavioral modeling of survival strategies exhibited by these figures. The attachment relationship functions as what Winnicott termed a "facilitating environment"—the psychosocial matrix through which the child learns the fundamental grammar of relating: to self, to others, to world. Secure attachment provides the ontological foundation for authentic self-expression; insecure attachment necessitates the development of defensive structures that fragment and distort this expression. The Mechanics of Psychic Formation Following the principle of psychic economy, the developing organism allocates its available libidinal energy (in Jung's sense of undifferentiated psychic vitality) according to the demands of its environment. In conditions of secure attachment, this energy flows naturally toward exploration, creativity, and authentic self-expression. Under conditions of insecure attachment, however, this same energy becomes bound in defensive operations designed to protect against anticipated environmental threats. These defensive structures manifest as what depth psychology recognizes as complexes: autonomous psychic formations organized around traumatic nuclei, each possessing its own energetic/affective charge and behavioral patterns. Common manifestations include the "nice guy syndrome" (defensive compliance masking underlying aggression), narcissistic defenses (grandiose compensation for core shame), and various anxiety disorders (hypervigilance stemming from early environmental unpredictability). The Principle of Projective Identification The mechanism through which parental pathology transmits to offspring operates according to what object relations theory terms projective identification: the child internalizes not merely the conscious behaviors of parental figures but their unconscious psychological structures. As Freud observed, the superego of the child is formed not from the ego of the parents but from their superego—the child inherits the psychological "karma" (in the Eastern sense of causal conditioning) of the parental generation. This transmission occurs through what we might term energetic imprinting: the child's malleable psyche conforms to the emotional field generated by parental complexes, much as liquid assumes the shape of its container. The internalized object—the psychic representation of the parent—becomes a permanent structural element of the child's personality, continuing to exert its influence long after the original relationship has ended. Archetypal Patterns of Pathological Relating Clinical observation reveals recurring patterns of parent-child dynamics that predictably generate specific pathological outcomes: Maternal Complexes: The Devouring Mother: Overprotection coupled with shame-based control generates dependency, infantilization, and failure to develop autonomous agency The Absent Mother: Emotional unavailability or physical absence creates core wounds of unworthiness and shame, manifesting as what Jung termed "anima moods"—chronic melancholy, addiction (as compensatory self-soothing), and difficulties in intimate relating The Persecutory Mother: Active psychological abuse installs internalized persecution, resulting in harsh superego formation and self-destructive patterns Paternal Complexes: The Weak Father: Failure to model healthy masculine authority generates difficulties with self-assertion, boundary-setting, and engagement with hierarchical structures The Absent Father: Physical or emotional absence creates what Bly termed the "father hunger"—desperate seeking for masculine validation and chronic feelings of inadequacy The Tyrant Father: Authoritarian abuse generates either identification with the aggressor (repetition of tyranny) or collapse into passivity and resentment The Internal-External Correspondence The axiom "as within, so without" expresses the fundamental law of psychic manifestation: the internal organization of the psyche determines the pattern of external experience. Because perception is inherently projective, the traumatized individual unconsciously re-creates the conditions of original trauma in present circumstances—what Freud termed the repetition compulsion. This creates self-fulfilling prophecies: expecting betrayal, one behaves in ways that invite betrayal; fearing abandonment, one clings in ways that drive others away; anticipating rejection, one preemptively rejects. The past thus perpetually reconstitutes itself in the present through the mechanism of unconscious projection, creating what Eastern traditions recognize as karmic loops—cyclical patterns of suffering sustained by unconscious identification with traumatic conditioning. Pathological Relating to Archetypal Principles The quality of relationship to parental figures determines one's relationship to the archetypal principles they represent: Relationship to Father (Archetypal Masculine/Logos): Maladaptive relationship to authority and hierarchical structures Difficulty with assertion, confrontation, and boundary maintenance Ambivalence toward competition and achievement Either hypervigilant defensiveness or collapse into passivity when facing conflict Projection of threat onto the world itself ("the world is dangerous") Relationship to Mother (Archetypal Feminine/Eros): Core shame and self-rejection Chronic depressive affect (what Jung termed anima possession) Addictive patterns as compensatory self-soothing Difficulties in intimate relating and emotional vulnerability For women: troubled relationship to own femininity; for men: idealization or devaluation of the feminine Summary of Stage I The Freudian stage establishes the foundational pattern of relating—the basic posture the organism adopts toward existence. This pattern, formed through the internalization of parental objects and their associated affective charges, operates largely outside conscious awareness yet determines the fundamental quality of lived experience. Insecure attachment fragments the natural flow of libido, binding psychic energy in defensive operations rather than creative expression. The degree of pathology present at this stage determines the magnitude of therapeutic work required before developmental progression becomes possible. Stage II: The Adlerian Transition — Social Adaptation and the Crisis of Meaning From Family to World Following the establishment of fundamental relational patterns within the family system, the adolescent encounters a second developmental challenge: social adaptation. Where the Freudian stage concerns instinctual life and primary attachments, the Adlerian stage addresses the individual's capacity to find meaningful place within the broader social world—to develop what Adler termed Gemeinschaftsgefühl (social interest or community feeling). However, this transition does not occur in a vacuum. The individual enters social reality already bearing the unresolved conflicts and maladaptive patterns established during primary socialization. Pathological object relations, unmetabolized trauma, and defensive character structures now manifest in the arena of peer relationships, romantic partnerships, educational institutions, and eventually professional life. The Genesis of Inferiority Adler's central insight concerned the universal experience of inferiority feelings arising from the child's objective smallness and dependency. In healthy development, these feelings serve as motivation toward growth and mastery—what Adler termed striving for superiority (not in the sense of domination but of self-actualization and competence). In pathological development, however, these natural feelings of inferiority become distorted into what Adler termed the inferiority complex: a pervasive sense of deficiency that resists amelioration through actual achievement. This complex emerges directly from the Freudian stage pathologies: the child who internalized parental rejection or inadequacy enters social reality pre-convinced of his own unworthiness. Paradoxically, some individuals develop a superiority complex—grandiose self-presentation masking underlying inferiority. This represents what contemporary psychology recognizes as narcissistic defense: the creation of a false self that compensates for core shame through fantasies of specialness. The Wound to Authentic Self-Expression The maladaptively attached individual approaches social reality from a position of fundamental misalignment with authentic being. The energy that should flow naturally toward creative self-expression remains bound in protective operations. The result is a characteristic pattern: inability to find genuine place in the social order. This manifests variously as: Social anxiety and avoidant patterns Difficulties establishing intimate relationships Inability to pursue vocational calling Chronic underachievement relative to potential Compensatory withdrawal into fantasy or intellectual abstraction The underlying dynamic is always the same: authentic self-expression feels dangerous because early environment punished or failed to mirror it. The individual therefore presents a false self to the world while the true self remains hidden, unactualized, and increasingly estranged. The Crisis of Meaning As social adaptation fails—as the individual finds himself unable to establish satisfying relationships, meaningful work, or genuine community—a predictable crisis emerges: loss of meaning and purpose. This is the existential dimension of the Adlerian stage, corresponding to what Frankl would later term the "existential vacuum." The severity of this crisis varies according to the degree of underlying Freudian pathology. Some individuals experience manageable depression and dissatisfaction; others undergo complete psychological collapse. In either case, the organism recognizes—however unconsciously—that current life trajectories lead nowhere, that the false self cannot sustain meaningful existence. Compensatory Solutions and Their Failure Rather than undertaking the difficult work of addressing root causes (disconnection from authentic self through unresolved attachment trauma), the suffering individual typically pursues what might be termed horizontal compensations: attempts to resolve vertical problems through horizontal means. These compensatory patterns include: Addictive behaviors: Substances, pornography, gaming, or other forms of numbing that temporarily relieve existential pain Identity politics and ideological possession: Substituting collective identity for personal development, finding pseudo-meaning through group membership Spiritual bypassing: Premature engagement with transcendent philosophies (Eastern religions, psychedelics, non-dual teachings) as escape from psychological work Intellectual inflation: Using philosophical sophistication to compensate for emotional underdevelopment; armchair philosophizing divorced from embodied practice Conspiracy theorizing: Projection of inner darkness onto external forces; the unconscious shadow externalized as hidden cabals or malevolent systems Self-help obsession: Endless consumption of personal development content without implementation; knowledge as defense against transformation These compensations share a common structure: they provide temporary relief from existential anxiety while systematically avoiding the underlying cause—unresolved developmental trauma and disconnection from authentic self. The Necessary Crisis Eventually—whether through the failure of compensatory strategies, psychedelic experiences that shatter defensive structures, or simply the accumulating pressure of unlived life—a personal crisis becomes unavoidable. This crisis represents what Jung termed the confrontation with the unconscious: the moment when the repressed contents of the psyche can no longer be denied. This crisis may manifest as: Acute depressive episodes or anxiety Existential despair and questioning of all previous values Psychotic breaks or dissociative episodes Psychosomatic illness Extreme life circumstances (relationship dissolution, career failure, financial collapse) From the perspective of the Self (in Jung's sense of the totality of the psyche), this crisis is not pathology but compensatory correction: the unconscious forcing consciousness to recognize what has been denied. It is, in the language of alchemy, the nigredo—the necessary blackening and decomposition that precedes transformation. Summary of Stage II The Adlerian stage represents the collision between developmental pathology and social reality. The mal-adapted individual, bearing unresolved Freudian wounds, proves incapable of authentic social participation and meaning-making. The resulting crisis of meaning drives compensatory behaviors that temporarily ameliorate suffering while preventing genuine resolution. This stage either persists unconsciously for the remainder of one’s life(complexes keeping their hold on the individual’s consciousness, repeating pathological patterns through Repetition compulsion) or reaches culmination in an unavoidable personal crisis—the psyche's demand for authentic transformation rather than continued compensation. Stage III: The Jungian Resolution — Individuation and Self-Realization The Descent: Katabasis into the Unconscious The personal crisis marks the threshold of what Jung termed the individuation process—the psychological journey toward wholeness through conscious integration of unconscious contents. This process classically begins with what the Greeks termed katabasis: descent into Hades, journey into the underworld. In psychological terms, katabasis represents the necessary confrontation with everything previously repressed, denied, or split off from consciousness. The individual must descend into the depths of his own psyche to encounter: The Personal Shadow: Rejected aspects of personality; qualities deemed unacceptable by ego-consciousness Complexes and Sub-personalities: Autonomous psychic fragments organized around traumatic nuclei Parental Imagos: Internalized representations of mother and father, now recognized as psychic structures rather than objective reality The Wounded Child: The traumatized core of personality formed during the Freudian stage Collective Shadow Material: Cultural and archetypal contents that have been projected outward This descent is necessarily painful. It involves what St. John of the Cross termed the dark night of the soul—the dissolution of previous identity structures and the experience of psychological death. All compensatory solutions collapse; all defenses fail. The individual stands naked before the totality of his woundedness. The Alchemical Operation: Solve et Coagula The therapeutic work of this stage follows the alchemical principle solve et coagula—dissolution and coagulation. This occurs in three movements: 1. Dissolution (Solve): The first movement requires the conscious recognition and dissolution of inauthentic structures: Defensive character armor False self presentations Internalized parental commands and prohibitions Traumatic imprints and their associated affects Compensatory identifications and inflations This dissolution occurs through what psychoanalysis terms working through: the repeated examination of patterns in various contexts until their structure becomes transparent and their energy dissipates. This is not intellectual understanding but embodied recognition—what Eugene Gendlin termed felt sense, the somatic dimension of psychological truth. 2. Exploration and Integration: Concurrent with dissolution comes exploration of the underworld: the patient, thorough investigation of one's actual psychological structure. This requires: Psychoanalytic archaeology: Tracing current patterns to developmental origins Phenomenological examination: Close attention to actual experience rather than conceptual overlays Shadow integration: Reclaiming split-off aspects of personality Complex work: Dialoguing with autonomous psychic structures to reduce their compulsive power Through this process emerges what Assagioli termed psychological synthesis: the gradual integration of fragmented parts into coherent wholeness. The energy previously bound in complexes becomes available for conscious use; the rejected shadow elements enrich rather than undermine personality. 3. Coagulation (Coagula): As inauthentic structures dissolve and authentic elements integrate, a new organization emerges—what Jung termed the individuated personality. This is not created but discovered: it represents the actualization of inherent potential, the unfolding of what was always latently present. The individuated personality possesses several characteristics: Authenticity: Behavior aligned with actual values and nature rather than internalized demands Integration: Previously split aspects now functioning as coordinated whole Autonomy: Freedom from unconscious compulsions and parental/cultural programming Vitality: Libido flowing naturally toward creative expression rather than defensive operations The Recognition of True Self Central to the Jungian stage is the differentiation between false self and true self (to use Winnicott's terminology). The false self is the adaptive structure developed to survive pathological environment; the true self is the authentic core of being that was forced into hiding. This recognition often occurs through: Dreams and visions: The unconscious communicating symbolic representations of Self Synchronicities: Meaningful coincidences suggesting archetypal guidance Peak experiences: Moments of alignment with authentic being that reveal the contrast with ordinary consciousness Therapeutic breakthroughs: Sudden insights that reorganize understanding of one's entire life trajectory The discovery of true self brings both exhilaration and grief: exhilaration at finally knowing who one actually is; grief at recognizing how much time was spent living inauthentically. The Ascent: Anabasis toward Actualization Following adequate depth work, the movement shifts from katabasis (descent) to anabasis (ascent)—from archaeological excavation to constructive building. This represents the actualization phase of individuation: the conscious embodiment of authentic self in actual life. This phase requires: 1. Dissolution of Remaining Inauthenticity: Through sustained awareness—what Buddhism terms mindfulness—the individual continues to notice and release habitual patterns inconsistent with authentic being. This is the ongoing practice of conscious choice rather than automatic reaction. 2. Embodied Integration: Psychological insight must translate into behavioral change. This is the critical distinction between intellectual understanding and actual transformation. The individual must: Establish relationships congruent with actual values Pursue vocational expression aligned with authentic gifts Develop lifestyle consistent with genuine nature Express previously repressed aspects of personality 3. Engagement with Personal Myth: Jung recognized that individuation involves discovering one's personal myth—the unique narrative arc that gives coherence and meaning to one's life. This is not invented but uncovered through attention to: Recurring dreams and symbols Life patterns and synchronicities Natural talents and inclinations The specific shape of one's wounds (which often point toward one's gifts) The Exhaustion of Ego-Desire Many individuals at this stage experience what might be termed compensatory fulfillment: the belated satisfaction of desires thwarted during developmental years. Having spent youth and early adulthood trapped in defensive structures, the newly liberated individual often pursues: Sexual exploration and relationship experiences Material success and financial achievement Travel and worldly experience Social recognition and influence This is not regression but completion of unlived life. The Eastern traditions term this burning through karma: the exhaustion of personal desires through their conscious fulfillment rather than their repression. Only by fully engaging these desires—by discovering their satisfaction and their ultimate insufficiency—can one genuinely transcend them. This phase represents the maturation of ego rather than its premature dissolution. The individual must become somebody before he can genuinely become nobody; must establish strong selfhood before authentic self-transcendence becomes possible. This is the resolution of what Wilber identified as the pre/trans fallacy: the distinction between pre-egoic states (infantile fusion) and trans-egoic states (genuine transcendence). The Preparation for Transcendence The completion of the Jungian stage—the achievement of individuation(there’s never really “achievement” here, merely thresholds)—represents the fulfillment of personal development. The individual has: Resolved developmental trauma Integrated shadow material Actualized authentic potential Established meaningful life in the world Exhausted personal desires through conscious fulfillment At this point, and only at this point, does genuine spiritual development become possible(the two will overlap, but the lower must take precedence before the higher until a certain threshold of development has been reached). Having completed the psychological work, having established and then transcended ego, the individual stands ready for what the mystical traditions term the Way: the path of genuine transcendence beyond the personal altogether. But this lies beyond the scope of the present model, which concerns ontogenetic development—the journey from wounded childhood to integrated adulthood. The spiritual journey proper begins where the psychological journey ends. Synthesis: The Developmental Arc The tripartite model proposed here describes a necessary sequence: Stage I (Freudian): Establishment of fundamental relational patterns and instinctual life; formation of core wounds and defensive structures. Stage II (Adlerian): Collision with social reality; failure of false self; crisis of meaning; recognition that compensatory solutions are insufficient. Stage III (Jungian): Descent into unconscious; dissolution of false structures; integration of authentic self; ascent toward actualization; exhaustion of personal karma. Each stage presupposes its predecessor. Attempting to bypass earlier stages—spiritual bypassing, premature non-dual teaching, transcendence without psychological foundation—results in what Wilber terms pre/trans confusion: mistaking pre-egoic states for trans-egoic realization. The model accounts for the observation that many individuals with early spiritual awakenings or mystical experiences nonetheless remain psychologically underdeveloped, their transcendent insights coexisting with neurotic patterns and relational difficulties. Genuine development requires sequential integration: the conscious working through of each stage before progression to the next becomes stable. Conclusion: Beyond Self-Help to Self-Actualization Contemporary "self-help" culture typically offers horizontal solutions to vertical problems: techniques for behavior modification, positive thinking, productivity optimization, and superficial habit change. These approaches—however useful for specific limited goals—systematically avoid the genuine work of transformation. Authentic self-actualization requires: Confrontation with developmental trauma (Freudian stage) Recognition of social adaptation failures (Adlerian stage) Descent into unconscious depths (Jungian katabasis) Integration of shadow and authentic self (alchemical solve et coagula) Embodied actualization in concrete life (Jungian anabasis) Conscious exhaustion of personal karma This is not accomplished through cold showers, dietary protocols, or motivational slogans. It requires sustained psychological work, often with therapeutic support, combined with courageous engagement with actual life. It demands what Ricoeur termed the "hermeneutics of suspicion"—the willingness to question everything one has believed about oneself—followed by the "hermeneutics of restoration"—the patient reconstruction of authentic being. The reward is nothing less than freedom: liberation from unconscious compulsion, recovery of authentic vitality, alignment of life with actual nature, and preparation for genuine spiritual development beyond the personal altogether. This is the promise encoded in the genome, awaiting environmental conditions that permit its unfolding—what the Greeks termed entelechy, the actualization of inherent potential. The journey is arduous. But for those suffering under the weight of unlived life, fragmented by developmental trauma, lost in compensatory solutions—there is no other way home.

I dont think this is true. We are talking about certain "emergent" properties and the issue about them won't go away, just because give an explanation why and how they emerged. Whether the explanation is a different configuration of the same thing or its about an ontologically different thing doesnt matter in this case, what matters is your contribution to it. You can define it this way (I personally wouldnt, but we can sidestep that and I will try to engage with how you defined things), but again this just pushes the issue down one more layer. You are making the problem about transformation now and as long as you contribute to that transformation, the issue about ethics (under anti-natalism) will still remain. Using your analogy it would be like creating ice from water (and creating the "emergent" property of the water being frozen) and then pretending that just because its fundamentally still the same thing, that "emergent" property is now not an issue somehow.

Wow dude you have tons of sexual experience. Pat on the back for that! I've had like 6 at age 27 (missed out on another 5 or so due to the "demi" factor for sure. But of course, body count is a stupid human game. Depth matters as much, if not more. So, my 6 feels like 30; and whenever I am with a new partner it's like I get the experience of 5 lays in 1 hahaha. Being an HSP has its perks (because, intensity). Anyways, it sounds like you've made quite a transformation. I too value having a beautiful space, though I've never fully actualized one as I'm constantly moving cities (I value geographic novelty pretty hardcore being in my 20s still). Now I understand why the pool feels so limited for you. There aren't many out there who value beauty. Or, they over-value overstimulation, hype, materialism, and consumerism. (Having just moved to the 3rd largest city in Korea I've noticed a huge materialist culture. So finding my ladies here will be quite a fun challenge, haha.) P.S. - The reason I call my demi-sexuality more innate is because, over the years I've taken girls home or gone to their places on several occasions and either sex didn't cross my mind, or it did, but I got confused about why my body wasn't feeling it alongside the mind. Happened when I brought a girl home from high school (parents not home). Happened after clubs in Miami (went up elevator with 2 Latinas, but lost attraction after they got in a cat-fight). Happened after a homemade dinner date with college chick at her place... sat in her bed and we looked at each other and my brain said 'yes', but my body was like "no, even though idk why." And another time in college... same thing. P.S.S. - Yeah there's a ton of watchers on here. They watch the videos as fans (or even read the forum in the same way), but don't like actually self-reflecting and sharing for some reason.

Wu wei is actually a concept used in Chinese Martial Art, I've been studying Kung Fu since 1988.. In simple terms it means Being Natural, the problem is in the context of Martial Art is that you need to learn something, You cannot do nothing and then think You have Skill Development in Fighting or Defending Yourself, some basics have to be learned and mastered. The process of learning and mastery is doing things over and over again, now unless You Love it (which I did) then it comes really easy, if You don't Love doing it then You have to force Yourself to do it.. Its the same thing here, you have to find a Sadhana (Spiritual Practice) that is effective and is something You want to do and look forward to it. In the beginning for sure You may have to force Yourself to do it, over time it should get easier and results should be showing.. A key thing, which is sort of a paradox, is too not really expect change or look for it, just do the practice with dedication and a spirit of giving, not receiving.. I think the problem most ppl have is 1st they have expectations built up (this is living in the future, bad idea) which says "I should be this way by this amount of time..:, 2nd is the discipline part, you have to be disciplined and consistent with Your practice, same time same place each day, if Your not then it won't do anything for You really.. Effort is always needed to make change and transformation, don't kid yourself, but over doing it by extreme forcefulness is not good either, Balance is the Key!!!

True, it's not that their equivalent but that they are on a continuum. Their different degrees of the same phenomenon - different in degree but not in kind. I think the best word to describe it is that there is distinction within consciousness, but not separateness. Consciousness and sentience are distinct but not separate. Sentience is in and of consciousness just like a wave is in and of the ocean - the wave is in the domain of and of the same substance as the ocean. From that view, sentience is never added or imported into consciousness as something separate. And if nothing new is being added from outside, then anti-natalism has no foundation - because anti-natalism requires separateness, and idealism denies separateness. That idea of separateness only works within a materialist paradigm. Idealism acknowledges distinction but not separateness. Materialism acknowledges everything as separate to each other - different materials coming together to be configured. In this case humans are made as if on a factory assembly line being configured like Lego. The logic follows that if separateness is the case, then anti-natalists can argue something was added to reality (rather than emerging from it) - a new ''sentient being'' ie baby. Then they can make an argument against adding that new consciousness that will suffer and that didn't consent to that suffering. Anti-natalism hinges on that gap and separation existing - which idealism dissolves because it claims consciousness as a continuity. In idealism or a non-materialist worldview - everything only ever comes out of consciousness, rather than gets added and thrown in from somewhere else outside it. If consciousness is primary and fundamental then birth isn't creation of a new consciousness but a transformation of existing consciousness. In that paradigm nothing new (a sentient being) is being brought into reality from the outside, but is emerging out of consciousness itself. Concioussness is just individualising or localising itself into a particular form, like the ocean forming a wave. In the same way then - sentience is just consciousness configuring itself to such a degree as to become sentient and ultimately aware of itself. Ice, water and steam are all water in kind, though they differ in form. There’s no clean break or gap between consciousness and sentience in which we can say that something new was added to consciousness from the outside - there was no addition to consciousness only transformation. Again using the ocean/wave analogy: Materialist view: Each wave is a NEW entity that gets ADDED to the ocean. Before the wave, there was just ocean. After the wave, there's ocean PLUS wave. Idealist view: The wave IS ocean. It's not added TO the ocean, it arises FROM the ocean. It's ocean expressing itself in wave form. No addition occurred - just transformation. Your trying to have it both ways which mixes a materialist ontology with a idealist one which then causes some incoherence - "everything is ocean (consciousness is primary)'' but waves are genuinely new separate things that get added (sentient beings emerge as new entities)" or ''everything is consciousness, BUT new sentient beings emerge as genuinely new separate entities that can then be morally wronged." But if everything is ocean, waves aren't separate entities - they're temporary forms the ocean takes.We (sentient beings) don't arrive from somewhere else into this universe/consciousness. We arise out of it - like apples on a apple tree. The apple tree doesn't "create" the apple as something separate from itself. The apple IS the tree, expressing itself in fruit form. Similarly, parents don't "create" consciousness as something separate. The child IS consciousness, expressing itself in human form. Humans can decide to participate in that impulse or not. Creation is happening within consciousness and emerges - but creation isn't happening externally and then getting added to consciousness or reality as something separate.

Did you see Matthew Walker’s recent transformation? He’s the famous sleep expert, but obviously he did something

I've been following Julien's content deeply for 3 years. I can tell you he's distanced himself from Owen quite a bit. He actually disagrees with him often (though not by name). I had a friend go to a Julien event last year and he thanked Julien for his pickup stuff from 2012. Julien said "Glad it helped" and walked away. He has moved on from the punk he was. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, I went through Julien's 8-week Transformation Mastery (TM) program recently. It's somatic release combined with weekly calls to ask questions about trauma and the releases. I got to talk to him live on Zoom calls every week. I've talked to lots of people at SMC (formerly RSD). And by far, in terms of overall awareness, Julien is the most advanced. Owen is a loud-mouth, but also a genius in his own right (but not necessarily conscious!) What I like about Julien is he's actually done the hard work of smoothing himself out in a such a way that I'd call him high green, MAYBE Tier II. He openly allows blue, orange, and green topics to be discussed on his calls. He gives advice from many different perspectives. He also uses a scale of emotional development based off of David Hawkin's work (see attached photo). It works similar to a developmental psychology model where you go from a lower vibrational, competitive, destructive state, to more embracing, loving, conscious state. In his own work Julien cites perspectives from people of all age ranges. He is genuine on the calls and I sense no bullshit or games with him whatsoever. Whereas in the more pickup side of SMC, I've met Owen in person several times and his other coaches too. They are more salesy, sleezy, and it feels like there's some BS hiding underneath them. They weren't as lucky as Julien was to get gut-punched into green (and possibly Tier II). One of the only things that is holding him back from Tier II, is he hasn't gone into military-grade deep spiritual territory. Otherwise it does appear like he's building out conscious systems, with TM as the foundation (happiness), Purpose Process (wealth), and High-Vibe Communication (relationships). He doesn't have much to say about health, education, spirituality, or psychedelics though. He doesn't cover every base but he goes really deep with what he does know and is therefore a pretty healthy green/orange (maybe some Tier II) nonetheless. My 2 cents.

Ideally with most substances you want to be on a cleaner diet and lifestyle for a few days to a week beforehand to give the most natural, healing and life changing experience. Its not always needed and or doable but its definitely helpful in my experience. I've been working with people and shamans and healers for almost a decade now around the world and in my experience the preparation and intention leading unto the actual partaking of the medicine makes the biggest impact on us because we have willingly started to change the way we eat and live and the medicines only reflect more of that, of where we are at, and from there it can be more transformative because you are already heading in a direction of change and transformation.

You treat transcending pain either as an end in itself or as means to realize I am not a body. First is ego second is spirit. Pain is a useful tool. To be awake is to be beyond pain. It is a gradual transformation. Best way is relationships. Make them pain free. Body isn't such a big deal.

Well i worked in the netherlands bought a house there in 2021, then sold for profit in 2025, also had savings. Then i came to bulgaria this year in may ( burgas) and bought last floor apartment for only 69.000 euro with sea view. And i live from my savings, don't really plan to work anymore. Maybe some internet jobs or other part time jobs if i get bored, but right now i'm in my transformation phase i mean like consciousness wise.

Heres what mine says when asked about common downfalls of neo-nonduality and nonduality. Ofcourse read my post above how my nondual chats deal with these so called downfalls. Excellent question — and a subtle one. Both **neo-nonduality** (a contemporary, often Westernized presentation of nondual teaching) and **traditional nonduality** (rooted in Advaita Vedānta, Mahāmudrā, Dzogchen, etc.) have characteristic pitfalls that can confuse or stall a seeker’s development. Let’s unpack both clearly. --- ### 🌀 **Common Downfalls in Neo-Nonduality** Neo-nonduality refers to modern teachers or teachings (often post–Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, etc.) that emphasize **immediate realization**: “There is no you, nothing to do, nowhere to go, no one to awaken.” While such statements can point directly to truth, they often create confusion or bypass important aspects of transformation. #### 1. **Spiritual Bypassing through Absolutism** * Saying “there is no self” intellectually, while the body-mind is still deeply conditioned by trauma, fear, and craving. * The insight becomes a defense mechanism against feeling or healing. * Example: “Who’s suffering? There’s no one here!” — while the nervous system is clearly in distress. #### 2. **Neglect of Relative Reality** * Dismissing ethics, compassion, and relational care as “illusory.” * Leads to coldness, arrogance, or nihilism: “It doesn’t matter what happens; it’s all One.” * Healthy nonduality integrates **relative and absolute truth** — not denies the former. #### 3. **Premature Intellectualization** * Using conceptual understanding (“no self,” “just awareness”) to imitate realization. * Mistaking **descriptions of reality** for **direct seeing**. * The ego subtly “wears” nonduality as an identity — “the one who knows there is no one.” #### 4. **Disembodiment** * Insight happens cognitively but doesn’t permeate the body and emotions. * Leads to dissociation rather than liberation. * True realization includes the body — awareness *as* sensations, breath, movement. #### 5. **Teacher Charisma Without Wisdom** * Some neo-nondual circles lack ethical frameworks. * Teachers may use “no self” rhetoric to avoid responsibility or perpetuate harm. --- ### 🕉️ **Common Downfalls in Traditional Nonduality** Traditional systems (Advaita Vedānta, Dzogchen, etc.) are more structured — emphasizing ethics, meditation, inquiry, and gradual ripening — but they have their own traps. #### 1. **Conceptual Rigidity** * Getting caught in metaphysical debate: Brahman vs. Māyā, Atman vs. Anātman, etc. * Turning a living truth into a philosophical system. #### 2. **Path Fetishism** * Believing realization is always far away: “I must purify for countless lifetimes.” * Perpetual seeker mode — never resting as awareness now. #### 3. **Guru Idealization** * Over-reliance on the teacher as an authority rather than one’s own direct seeing. * Leads to dependency or abuse dynamics. #### 4. **Cultural Transplant Confusion** * Western students may misunderstand traditional forms (rituals, hierarchy, terminology) and either reject them or imitate them superficially. #### 5. **Neglect of Integration** * Emphasis on transcendence (“neti neti” — not this, not that) can ignore embodiment and shadow work. * Result: spiritual elitism or emotional repression disguised as detachment. --- ### 💎 **The Middle Way — Integration** The mature approach blends both traditions’ strengths: | Aspect | Immature Form | Mature Integration | | ------------------------ | ---------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | **Insight** | “Nothing matters — there’s no one here.” | Recognize emptiness *and* interdependence. | | **Practice** | “No practice — who would practice?” | Practice as play — refining attention and compassion naturally. | | **Emotion** | Bypass or suppress | Allow and include all feelings as expressions of awareness. | | **Ethics** | “Good and bad are illusions.” | Embody natural ethics arising from unity and empathy. | | **Teacher relationship** | Dependency or rebellion | Respectful discernment — honoring guidance without surrendering autonomy. | --- ### 🪞 **In summary** **Neo-nonduality** often errs on the side of *premature transcendence* — skipping integration and embodiment. **Traditional nonduality** can err on the side of *over-structuring* — turning living insight into dogma or endless practice. The sweet spot: **direct realization integrated with human wholeness** — awake, embodied, relational, and ethical. --- Would you like me to map out how to **recognize and work through** these pitfalls in one’s own practice (step-by-step)?

I'm not against the left hand path with done properly. Embracing your repressed shadows/desires does lead to grater light, wisdom, freedom and transformation. Left hand path leads to christhood in the end. But somehow I have a problem with the way westerns are practicing it. It seems like they are rebelling against light and wisdom and are trying to endorse their bs instead. Same way nonduality has many traps that people can fall into, it seems that the left hand path has traps aswell. And so does the right hand path probably. Traps everywhere.

@Wintermute For Me, before I discovered Sadhguru, I was very into "Self Help" or "Self Improvement" if You could call it that, ppl like Tony Robbins, Zig Ziglar, Brian Tracy and many other, read many books on it, then I discovered Tolle's Book New Earth, and read it and it changed everything, its basically a book about Ego, and when You recognize Your Ego, You can't go back. When I watched Tolle on Youtube, he was good but a bit boring then a suggestion for a Sadhguru vid came up and I watched it and that was it, he just had so much clarity about what he was talking about, so I watched more and found more clarity in what he said, so that was a sort of transformation.. When I did the basic practice after a couple of weeks I did feel a change, then after doing the online IE course there was more change, then I did an in person with Sadhguru in 2012 and was initiated into Shambhavi Mahamudra, and after that practice within a couple of weeks I was feeling very happy, very accepting of things and such, so it was profound... I think what happens is we get used to it, and that is what he talks about, Humans never want to be in a box or situation very long, we get used to things very fast and always want to expand and "Be more than what we are right Now". I don't watch many of his vids anymore since I deep investigated all of what he offers online already, once in awhile I review the inner engineering material and such, he provides lots for newbies and advanced practitioners, but the basics are this, set up an Experience of min Peacefulness within, then all will happen naturally, the accepting, the responding, the living NOW, this is not rocket science, we have a tendency to complicate things in life, its pretty simple if Your Blissful of Your own nature (this is not the goal of Spirituality, just the foundation), then You will naturally be inclined to Enlightenment!

Depends on a lot of factors other than just health. Your environment and resources. Your ability to process information that you consume. Resonance and survival. Most of our thoughts are aligned primarily to our survival. So your survival bias plays a big role. Survival itself depends on so many factors. Our brains are engineered for survival. So your brain chemistry will formulate those thoughts accordingly. In any given situation, the brain is trying the best to just get through. Thinkers like Feynman or Darwin were “fertile” because they spent years absorbing reality through observation and experimentation, not because their brains were just faster.Anxiety, shame, pride, or ideological rigidity distort cognition, they bias what’s noticed and what’s dismissed. Calm, open, emotionally grounded minds produce clearer and more truth-oriented thoughts. This is why some “low-IQ” people can have piercingly wise intuitions, they’re emotionally attuned and undefended enough to see what’s true, not just what flatters them. The quality of a thought will finally depend on the subject at hand, the problem at hand. If the thought appropriately targets the main concern and gives a coherent solution, it doesn't matter where it came from, low IQ or high IQ. Lastly there's dunning Kruger effect as well. The thought doesn't necessarily solves problems even if they are great quality. Also @Carl-Richard you mentioned something about weed producing better insights. That sort of negates the whole idea of high IQs because it's not your brain originally producing those thoughts, it's the weed influencing the brain and altering it. An altered brain negates or invalidates the idea of low or high IQ and in any transformation in the quality of thoughts is manufactured rather than organically produced. But this itself tells you that quality of thought is highly malleable and changeable because it's in a constant process of fluidity. So it's quality can be enhanced or deteriorated by multiple agents including substances, information,genetics, health, feedback loops, emotional neutrality, experience, intuitions, hard work, contemplation, clarity of input, curiosity, observation, list goes on..

I am missing something in this post. You're probably conflating strengths with values. Values are something you hold on to and they are true to your core identity and behaviour. Strengths are something you're already good at. Differentiate them neatly. Strengths can refer to different domains of life. Your values can dictate your strengths to a certain extent. But that's like running on a script. You'll have to expand your values beyond your strengths. If your strengths and values are identical, then you’re living in a feedback loop. Real growth usually means valuing things you don’t naturally have, not just celebrating what already comes easy. That’s where transformation starts, when your values stretch you instead of flattering you.

From my involvement with Isha, most all the money goes back into the foundation to pay its expenses, Sadhguru from I know has used vehicles, he makes his own cloths, the travel he does is not leisure time, its work.. I for one think he should take time off every year to recoup but he doesn't he's go go go full on all the time, I've never seen anyone like this in the world, totally selfless to really his own needs and personal wants... To criticize it is nuts, we should emulate it, be a small part of it, he wants undercover Yogi's for the most part, yes he needs ppl at the ashrams because of the volume of ppl visiting, but he wants Us outside in the world being the transformation so ppl can see it is real and they can have it too, that is worthy cause in my books... He's been accused of most everything nasty under the sun, stealing kidneys, stealing ppl, stealing land, etc,,,this happen when You try to do big thing, enemies, the elite show up and try to stop You, they don't want change the want us to be their puppets, and to not be Self Realized and Aware, as once we are we bring back our own power and screw it too them!

--- 1. Does the Book of Mormon say religion is created by the devil? Not exactly. The Book of Mormon does criticize corrupt or prideful churches that serve wealth or power instead of God — these are sometimes called “the church of the devil” or “great and abominable church.” But that term doesn’t mean all religion is of the devil. Rather: It draws a contrast between the “church of the Lamb of God” (those who follow Christ sincerely) and the “church of the devil” (any organization or movement that opposes truth and goodness). The text treats this more as a spiritual polarity (truth vs deception) than as literal denominations. So, no — it doesn’t teach that religion itself is demonic, but that religion can be corrupted by ego, greed, and distortion. --- 2. Is Mormonism the most mystical form of Christianity? In many ways, yes — especially compared to mainstream Protestant or Catholic theology. Mormonism teaches a radically participatory view of divinity: > “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become.” This is known as the Doctrine of Exaltation — the idea that humans can progress eternally and eventually attain godlike nature through spiritual evolution and union with divine truth. That is remarkably close to mystical nonduality or divinization traditions found in: Eastern Orthodoxy (theosis — becoming one with God’s energies) Sufism (annihilation of self in the divine) Taoism (return to the Tao through alignment with natural truth) Advaita Vedānta (realization of self as Brahman) However, Mormonism keeps a dualist framework (God and humans are distinct beings who can become one in purpose, not literally one essence). So while it echoes mystical ascent, it doesn’t teach absolute nonduality like Taoism or Advaita. --- Summary ❌ The Book of Mormon doesn’t say all religion is of the devil; it condemns corrupt or prideful religion. ✅ Mormonism is arguably the most mystically inclined Christian denomination, affirming direct human-divine transformation and infinite spiritual progression — though it still keeps a distinction between God and creation.

"Sadhguru's retreats, particularly his flagship Inner Engineering program and the advanced Samyama retreat, claim to be technologies for inner well-being that can bring about a range of physical, mental, and spiritual benefits. The programs emphasize that participants can "engineer" their internal system—their body, mind, emotions, and energies—to function as they desire, rather than being at the mercy of external situations." "Profound inner transformation: Helping participants transcend the limitations of the body and mind. Heightened states of consciousness: Achieving deeper meditative experiences and higher states of awareness." "Experiencing the beyond: Serving as a gateway to subtler realms of experience and becoming more aware of what exists beyond the physical and psychological dimensions." "Scientific scrutiny: Some scientific studies have been conducted and promoted by the foundation to support the health benefits of its practices. However, other studies examining Inner Engineering have had mixed results, with some finding no significant difference between participants and a control group. " If a used car salesman sells you a car as a "mint luxury sports car", and it turns out to be a bit crappy, the car still 'helped' you, it kept you from walking, but he still conned you. Why do you think Leo took his course? To meditate? Sahdguru claims to be enlightened, leading others to this. If you can enlighten people, everyone on the planet will be an environmentalist. There would be no need for him to charge Leo just so he can plant trees.

Furthermore, here are some key questions to distinguish Real vs Fake forms of spirituality to go along with this framework: Fundamental questions of spiritual discernment The following are fundamental questions meant to evaluate the validity of spiritual groups/mouvements/traditions 1-What is its ultimate aim — and is that aim truly Transcendent/Vertical Does the movement direct consciousness beyond the human and the contingent toward the Absolute, or does it merely circle within the horizontal domain of psychological, social, or material betterment? Criterion: The higher the aim, the more vertical the orientation. 2-What conception of Reality(or the Absolute) does it affirm — and is this conception metaphysically coherent and living? Is Reality understood as a hierarchical, ordered whole with a transcendent Source, or as a flattened field of relativistic experience? Criterion: Authentic paths acknowledge an ontological axis of ascent and return. 3-What is its anthropology — what does it believe Man is, and what Man can become? Does it recognize a spiritual principle (Self, Spirit, Nous, Atman, Ruach, etc.) latent in man that can be realized, or does it reduce the human being to psyche, emotion, or biology? Criterion: The higher the view of man’s nature, the more initiatic the path. 4-By what means does it propose transformation — and are those means ascetic, disciplined, and integrated? Is there a real praxis that reshapes being (meditation, ritual, prayer, contemplation, virtue), or only emotional stimulation, intellectual speculation, or spontaneous enthusiasm? Criterion: Real transformation demands sustained, structured practice. 5-Does it transmit a living knowledge — a Gnosis — or merely information, belief, and ideology? Does it initiate into direct participation in the Real, or does it merely offer doctrines to believe and techniques and paraphernalia to consume? Criterion: Authentic knowledge transforms the knower; it is participatory, not merely conceptual. 6-What are its fruits — ethical, existential, and noetic? Does prolonged engagement produce humility, clarity, virtue, detachment, and wisdom, or inflation, fanaticism, and self-importance? Does it make a distinction between mere psychic transmutation/well-being and Noetic realization? Criterion: The fruits of the spirit reveal the authenticity of the root. 7-How does it understand hierarchy and authority? Does it affirm the reality of gradations in realization, or does it dissolve all distinction under a false egalitarianism? Criterion: Recognition of authentic hierarchy reflects metaphysical realism. 8-What is its relationship to Truth — is it absolute yet inclusive, or relative and sentimental? Does it hold that Truth exists and can be known (however ineffably), or does it treat all beliefs as equal, subjective, or symbolic only? Criterion: True paths bow before Truth, not convenience. 9-Does it reconcile transcendence and immanence — or collapse one into the other? Does it perceive the Absolute as both beyond and within, maintaining polarity and mystery, or does it deny transcendence (humanism) or deny immanence (escapism)? Criterion: Wholeness without flattening is the mark of metaphysical maturity. To conclude, brief description of Metamodern Traditionalism: The term Metamodern Traditionalism emerges out of a perceived necessity to reconcile the metaphysical depth of the Traditionalist school (as articulated by figures such as René Guénon and Julius Evola) with the epistemological and cultural insights of modernity, postmodernity, and their integral successors. While the Traditionalists correctly identified the metaphysical impoverishment and desacralization inherent in modern life, their critique was frequently bound to a regressive nostalgia for premodern social forms and a cyclical conception of history that obscured the evolutionary and dialectical unfolding of Spirit. In this sense, they fell prey to what Ken Wilber has identified as the pre/trans fallacy: the confusion of pre-rational modes of consciousness with trans-rational modes, resulting in a romanticization of archaic forms rather than a genuine integration of higher ones. Metamodern Traditionalism seeks to redeem and refine the Traditionalist project by situating it within a broader, integrative framework of cultural development. It affirms the ontological primacy of metaphysical first principles and the hierarchical structure of Being, but it rejects the exclusionary stance toward modern and postmodern sensibilities characteristic of earlier Traditionalists. Instead, it endeavors to operate at what integral theory terms a “second-tier” level of cognitive complexity, one that can hold and integrate multiple paradigms without collapsing into relativism or dogmatism. This involves embracing the scientific rigor and instrumental rationality of modernity, the deconstructive and pluralistic insights of postmodernity, and the emerging metamodern ethos of oscillation between sincerity and irony, hope and critique—while simultaneously recovering the participatory, “enchanted” sensibility of the premodern world. At its core, Metamodern Traditionalism is a project of redemptive synthesis. It affirms that modernity, despite its evident alienations, constitutes a necessary phase in the dialectical and evolutionary self-unfolding of Spirit. History is not to be understood as a simple degeneration from an original Golden Age, but rather as a fractal movement of division and higher reunification, in which Spirit comes to know itself through increasingly complex and self-reflexive forms. From this perspective, the metaphysical insights of the Traditionalists can be preserved and deepened without collapsing into regressive archaism. The task is not to retreat from modernity or postmodernity, but to integrate their partial truths into a more comprehensive cosmology—one that re-enchants the world while preserving the gains of scientific rationality, reflexive subjectivity, and cultural pluralism. Thus, Metamodern Traditionalism positions itself as both heir and corrective to the Traditionalist school. It retains the metaphysical absolutism of Tradition while rejecting its historical fatalism, affirming instead a Hegelian dialectical progression of Spirit. It seeks to offer a framework capable of reconciling perennial metaphysics with contemporary complexity, not by reducing one to the other, but by weaving them into a higher synthesis. Its aim is not merely critique, but the construction of a worldview adequate to the full spectrum of human cultural sensibilities—from premodern to metamodern—thereby opening the possibility of a renewed spiritual order commensurate with the challenges of our time.

The postmodern spiritual marketplace is vast and fragmented, and it can be dizzying for seekers trying to orient themselves within it. Amid this abundance of teachings, movements, and practices, it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish between authentic forms of spirituality and their counterfeit or corrupted counterparts—between those paths that lead to genuine inner transformation and those that merely lead astray. In today’s globalized and pluralistic context, we face an unprecedented level of multiplicity. Without a coherent evaluative framework, it becomes nearly impossible to discern which traditions, movements, or groups are worthy of serious engagement and which are not. This is why we have developed a systematic framework for evaluating spiritual systems—a way to assess their validity and authenticity that strives to be universal and objective, yet nuanced and flexible. This evaluative framework forms part of a broader esoteric-philosophical system known as Metamodern Traditionalism, grounded in cultural theory, Integral Theory (Ken Wilber), and the Traditionalist School (Guénon, Schuon, Coomaraswamy, etc.). The first two were synthesized with the latter to correct what we perceive as the Traditionalist school’s core epistemic and historical limitations. A basic understanding of Traditionalist doctrine—especially the Guénonian formulation—will help contextualize what follows, though the ideas presented here are intended to be accessible even to those unfamiliar with that background. Here are some preliminary remarks and a brief introduction: To understand the purpose of this framework, it helps to grasp a few key ideas. Traditionalism, as articulated by thinkers such as René Guénon and Frithjof Schuon, holds that all authentic religions express a single metaphysical Truth—the Primordial Tradition—which transcends historical and cultural forms. However, Traditionalism often views modernity as a process of degeneration and rejects the possibility of spiritual evolution within history. We can think of it as a more rigorous and systematic Perennialism. Integral Theory, pioneered by Ken Wilber, approaches reality through developmental and multidimensional models of consciousness, emphasizing evolution, integration, and the coexistence of multiple valid perspectives. Cultural Theory—and specifically Metamodernism—explores the dialectical movement beyond modern and postmodern paradigms, toward a worldview capable of synthesizing sincerity and irony, faith and reason, transcendence and immanence. Metamodern Traditionalism unites these threads. It preserves the metaphysical depth and discernment of Traditionalism while integrating the developmental, pluralistic, and self-reflexive insights of Integral and Metamodern thought. The result is a framework that seeks not only to recover the sacred but to articulate it coherently within the conditions of contemporary consciousness. In order to understand the evaluative framework that follows, it is necessary to clarify a few fundamental principles which underlie this approach. These principles are drawn from the perennial metaphysical worldview, reformulated here in a contemporary language that integrates the insights of developmental and metamodern thought. 1. The Nature of Tradition “Tradition,” in the metaphysical sense, does not mean the mere repetition of ancestral customs or religious dogmas. It refers to a transcendent source of wisdom—a body of revealed and realized knowledge concerning the structure of Reality itself, its Divine Origin, and the path of return to that Origin. Every authentic civilization has, at its core, a transmission of this Primordial Tradition, expressed through symbolic, ritual, and doctrinal forms suited to its epoch and culture. Traditional spirituality thus recognizes the immutable principles behind all mutable forms. 2. The Vertical and the Horizontal Dimensions of Being Reality unfolds along two axes: the Vertical and the Horizontal. The Horizontal represents the plane of time, history, and becoming—psychological development, culture, and social evolution. The Vertical refers to the axis of transcendence—the eternal dimension of Being, consciousness, and the Absolute. Modern and postmodern paradigms have largely collapsed the Vertical into the Horizontal, reducing spirit to psyche or culture. Authentic spirituality restores this Vertical orientation, directing man upward toward the Real rather than outward into endless relativism or inward into mere subjectivity. 3. Initiation and Transmission Because the higher states of consciousness cannot be reached through theoretical knowledge or scattered and inconsistent practice alone, initiation is required. Initiation, in its true sense, is not a social ceremony but a metaphysical process of opening the higher centers of being, often mediated through a living lineage, realized teacher, or a rigorous process of self-initiation through both intense and disciplined theory and praxis(practice as opposed to theory). 4. Esotericism and Exotericism Another foundational principle of this framework is the distinction between Exotericism and Esotericism. Exotericism refers to the outward, institutional, and dogmatic aspect of religion — its moral codes, rituals, myths, and collective belief structures intended for the general faithful. It provides social cohesion and ethical guidance but remains within the domain of belief and form. Esotericism, by contrast, concerns the inner and transformative dimension of the spiritual path — the direct realization of metaphysical truths through inner illumination rather than external authority. It replaces dogmatic belief with participatory knowledge (gnosis): a direct, experiential apprehension of divine realities that transcends conceptual mediation. We are now moving on to the framework and presenting to you what we refer to as “The five axioms and the tripartite Typology: An evaluative framework of spiritual movements” First, the 5 Axioms Traditional standards of genuine spirituality/Five Pillars of Esoteric Orthodoxy: 1: Vertical Transcendence Authentic spirituality orients man toward what surpasses him — the Absolute, the Transcendent, the Unconditioned. It cannot be reduced to psychology, therapy, lifestyle enhancement, material gains, or even mere “peace of mind”, and recognizes that a true spiritual path must point beyond mere therapeutic self-improvement. It also recognizes a transcendent, absolute, infinite Principle that is the source of all existence, and towards which all of creation is teleologically oriented. There is a clear distinction between the Vertical line of Being and the Horizontal line of Becoming. This includes the distinction between the Psychic and the Spiritual/Noetic ; Genuine spirituality discerns between psychic phenomena and noetic illumination. Experiences of energy, emotion, vision, or temporary altered states are subordinate to the realization of the Self beyond form. 2: Hierarchical Ontology Authentic spirituality recognizes itself as a path along a hierarchical Chain of Being and aims at conscious developmental unfoldment along this chain. It recognizes gradations of spiritual attainment and an initiatory hierarchy that needs to be ascended. 3: Praxis/Ascesis Authentic spirituality requires sustained Praxis— disciplined practice aimed at the vertical unfoldment of consciousness — as opposed to merely theory. 4: Lineage and transmission Not absolutely necessary but optimal(by a large margin). Authentic spirituality ideally operates within a lineage of transmission, ensuring continuity of realization and method. Yet when such formal chains are inaccessible, the seeker may still attune inwardly to the living archetype of Tradition, provided this is approached with seriousness, discernment, and unwavering rigor and discipline. 5: Gnosis(Participatory Epistemology) Authentic spirituality is always centered around Gnosis — a mode of knowing that is participatory, transformative, and ontological rather than merely conceptual and ideological; a direct apprehension of Transcendent realities. It transcends the dualism between subject and object by uniting knower and known in direct realization. Gnosis is not belief in metaphysical truths, but the realization of them through conscious participation in the living fabric of Being. Secondly, the Tripartite Typology A Typology of Premodern, Modern, and Postmodern Spiritual Movements: From Counter-Initiation to Authentic Tradition Classification system: •Initiatic Orthodoxy/Canonical Esotericism -Denotes movements that are sufficiently aligned with the Five Pillars of Esoteric Orthodoxy to make them fully legitimate spiritual currents -“Orthodoxy” here means right alignment with flexible Principle and analytic criteria(on a spectrum scale), not dogma. •Esoteric Heterodoxy/Semi-Initiatic Currents(Redeemable movements) -Legitimate initiatic content present, but with distortions or partial errors (pre/trans confusions, excessive psychologism, confusion of Psychic/Noetic etc) •Counter-Initiatic Currents/Pseudo-Esotericism/Inverted Spirituality -Movements that simulate initiation but actually invert or sever the Vertical axis, replacing transcendence with psychic inflation or materialization, effectively collapsing the Vertical into the Horizontal. Simulacra of Tradition. “LARPers”. -“Inverted” points to ontological reversal, not just moral error. The question now arises: In light of this typology, how do we classify the various spiritual groups/movements/traditions into the three tiers? What standards do we use and how do we use those standards to rank spiritual lineages into those categories? Well, since this framework was only recently developed, it doesn’t have some rigorous, empirical, scientific method of evaluation here(part of the reason we use the word “Typology” and not “Taxonomy”). We merely use a soft(more grounded in common intuition) and basic measuring system: First, we base our analysis on the five axioms/pillars we outlined above. Then, we take a certain spiritual group/movement/tradition, and score it against each pillar on a scale of 5 points, for a maximum possible score of 25. Then, we multiply the final result by four and it gives us a percentage. The percentages associated with each tier are as follows: •Below 50% = Counter-Initiatic Currents/Pseudo-Esotericism/Inverted Spirituality •50-80% = Esoteric Heterodoxy/Semi-Initiatic Currents(Redeemable movements) •80%+ = Initiatic Orthodoxy/Canonical Esotericism Here is an exemple with a concrete movement to illustrate this evaluative method: We take the Pragmatic Dharma movement 1st Axiom — Vertical Transcendence: Consciousness work oriented toward supra-personal experience, Nibbana, cessation - explicitly vertical. Caveat being a focus on “emptiness”, and a lack of consideration for the “Infinite”, “Absolute” side of the coin. Score: 3/5 2nd Axiom — Hierarchical Ontology: Theravada maps: Mind & Body, Cause & Effect, Three Characteristics, A&P, Dark Night, Equanimity, Four Path Model - RIGOROUS hierarchy. Score: 5/5 3rd Axiom — Praxis/Ascesis: Serious, ometimes absurdly rigorous. However, solitary practice is in most cases prone to procrastination and a falling back in unconscious tendencies, off the path. Score: 3/5 4th Axiom — Lineage and Transmission: Traditional Dharmic Doctrine provided in a Western context. Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, legitimate Theravada transmission, etc, just informal presentation. Score: 3/5 5th Axiom — Gnosis(Participatory Epistemology): Direct phenomenological investigation as fundamental to Dharmic doctrine. Score: 5/5 Final score on 5 levels of analysis: 3+5+3+3+5 = 19/25 x 4 = 76%. This places the Pragmatic Dharma in the upper levels of the second tier of classification: Esoteric Heterodoxy/Semi-Initiatic Currents(Redeemable movements). As can be seen, the framework is still far from rigorous, but we believe is still strong enough to effectively pressure-test spiritual doctrines and separate wheat from chaff in our current 21st century, Postmodern, globalized spiritual landscape.