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I don't believe that platitudes are responsible for the suicide . . at best it was probably neutral and didn't changed the outcome.

@Carl-Richard That Nahm dude cannot be defended. He replied with non-dual platitudes to someone that was seriously about to commit suicide. And that someone did commit suicide in the end. I'm not saying Nahm was responsible. But he was clearly unwise and irresponsible.

My mother overdosed to death when I was 5. This has been a deeply ingrained imprint in my psyche. I'm now 24, NEET and shut-in for the majority of the past 8 years. I find myself wanting to follow in her footsteps. Suicide has long been a fantasy for me, it's the only imagined future I find solace and believability it. I simply do not want to work, I do not and can not exert strain on my mental and physical system. I've walked out of four jobs thus far, all of them because of a culmination of stress and future oriented dread. Before I was prescribed my adhd medication in my 20s my depression got to such a level where my skin was growing layers of dirt I could scratch off, only after my prescription did I get the kick to my system to get the 4 aforementioned jobs (all in retail). I really just feel like I'm not on the same level as other humans functionally and this is an intrinsic part of my life. Just extreme brain and psychological damage from my gestation and formative years. I realised Oneness, me as the Godhead as the Universe dreaming me on LSD and DMT last year. So I can't buy into the "after death is a nothing void forever" cop out. And even tho I've learnt a lot more forgiveness towards other people I still don't know how to relate to others when interacting with them, I've just only ever derived trauma and discomfort in my interactions with others and we never are on the same footing in regards to our values and interests and sensibilities. I'm just so not built for physical survival, every movement of my being is averse to practicality, health and prudence. I find myself wanting to extricate myself from being a leech on my aunt and uncle and just go homeless and see how I fare, it might give me the sober urgency I need to get my life in order or maybe I'll find I don't mind it, homelessness runs in the family anyway. I don't know what I'm looking for here, advice I guess. I know outsourcing responsibility on how to decide my life is counter to the ethos of this site but I'm just not that guy... The mental health system on this island has also been terrible, I was even in the psych ward for a few weeks and couldn't get seen by any psychologist because they're just too shortstaffed all around. Any therapy I've tried has been trite lifestyle advice I was already implementing at the time and there's just a preoccupation with diagnosing over investigating.

If I would have to bet my money on it, I would bet that Connor, during those last 6 years, was more happy than the average person. I don't think it was a suicide. I think it's likely that his death was actually caused by not enough neuroticism rather than too much.

Who is to say they aren't the ones who will lead to your downfall? Why would you believe in psychiatrists? They are ideologically captured by the state. They do not serve you; they unconsciously serve the organism that maintains society. -- If Connor was doing so many drugs, it's because he was looking to die and melt into nothing. He suffered. It’s not because he didn’t look like a cliche suicidal and depressive person that he wasn’t one. To me, it’s quite clear he was longing to die and finally succeeded. You don’t need to take a bunch of direct killing pills to attempt suicide. What he was doing was a slow call for death because he never ever healed from the trauma of not being enough.

Right now, I have no wounds whatsoever. It felt painful before awakening to my true nature and during the process. But those were healed as awareness crept in—I could sense how the pain subsided. I did not have to heal myself—the higher level of consciousness did that for me. And I remember how much pain I was in before starting to meditate: Toxic shame, insecurity, no discipline whatsoever, and unable to keep a basic job. I was addicted to social media, junk food, weed, and so forth. All that had to go away, or my life would have been ruined. While it is true that I sacrificed my ego and other forms of pleasure, that doesn't mean I lost something. Because the bliss of awareness is much more enjoyable than anything in the world or of the ego. I'm not saying that all people should do what I did; I am only saying that force was necessary sometimes, and that it's no easy game to overcome the ego. And the way I see it now is that it's not a tragedy or something bad that happened to me. I see it as a little bit of ego an struggle. That's it. And that's true, Elliott. For some people, because they struggle with heavy mental health issues, they will experience horrible side effects as a result of meditating. But they can be transcended and eventually healed. I went through that because I come from both families with harsh intergenerational trauma. My grandfather committed suicide.

Nope 60-70 BBC https://www.bbc.com Do we really live longer than our ancestors? Back in 1994 a study looked at every man entered into the Oxford Classical Dictionary who lived in ancient Greece or Rome. Their ages of death were compared to men listed in the more recent Chambers Biographical Dictionary. Of 397 ancients in total, 99 died violently by murder, suicide or in battle. Of the remaining 298, those born before 100BC lived to a median age of 72 years. Those born after 100BC lived to a median age of 66. (The authors speculate that the prevalence of dangerous lead plumbing may have led to this apparent shortening of life). 2026 The median age of death across Africa roughly mirrors the continent's overall life expectancy at birth, which stands at approximately 64 years. However, the media The average life expectancy in Africa is approximately 64.2 years. While this is a major increase from 53 years in 2000, it remains over

@LifeEnjoyer yeah he played the character so well he needed to die exact the same way. The "Drug Overdose" Connection The mention of a drug overdose is tied directly to a real-world musical that inspired Connor's online stunt: Dear Evan Hansen: Connor explains that his entire online persona over the previous year was modeled after this Broadway musical. The Character: A key character in the musical is named Connor Murphy—sharing the exact same name as him. The Overdose Plot: In the play, the fictional Connor Murphy struggles with severe mental health issues and ultimately dies by suicide from a drug overdose. Connor states that he used this coincidence to stage a real-life version of the play on YouTube. As part of this "act," he pretended to be heavily involved with psychedelics (like Ayahuasca) and feigned a drug-induced psychosis online to simulate the character's downward spiral and raise mental health awareness.

@Lyubov yes it looks more like a drug induced incident than a planned suicide.

Well, the only way to truly eliminate it is to die. Ego death is that. The more ego death, the less fear of death. Kriya yoga is the best practice I know. Note: I am not talking about suicide.

Has he talked about suicide in the past?

That friend's channel is gonna get nuked with hate if that video turns out to be a hoax. Kind of a suicide move. But perhaps Connor's friends are suicidal. I notice that you guys love to challenge and mock my intuition, but my intuition is almost always right in the end, despite the lack of data. That's because my mind sees data you don't.

@Hojo I have been doing a lot of research hoping it would help. Most of what I built were psychological models that serve to protect me from things lime suicide. It was part of my plan to move out, but the weight felt unbearable. This did at least serve as some psychological preparation for making such a radical decision. I think the thing that is keeping me holding onto them is the fact that I wanted to be a professional player, but I required a robust support system in childhood in order to achieve it. They undermined that goal and my relationship with chess isn't the same anymore because the future isn't there. Thank you for paying attention and noticing. I had a problem I didn't solve. I have considered the homeless possibility already. I spend most of my time outside anyway. I'm usually wandering the streets looking for somewhere to go. I found a Buddhist temple in southern ohio that I liked. I walked some pretty far distances. I have some buff legs. Part of me wonders what would happen if I just walked to one of those organizations in Massachusetts or Wyoming. I would prefer to have bike though because it would make traveling so much faster.

@Zenterus thats why she is getting attached she has to make you interested so you will take her in bro. She playing a game she has probably played with many other people. She needs a place to stay this is survival to her. She knows how to make men take care of her. When you say no all hell breaks loose because the first plan didn't work and this is the next plan. I love you let's have kids means let me stay at your house. That didn't work then she says she will kill herself if you dont let her stay at her house. You being manipulated the whole time the woman dosent care about you specifically if it was someone else she will pull the exact same thing. Its how she got her hotel probably. There are many men that will let her stay after threatening suicide its a tactic but you still said no and call the cops. This fucked up her plan again and she get more mad. Its like a toddler. The content of what she is saying can not even be considered as real shes just saying whatever to get you to let her stay at your place.

Y'all better strap up cause this is one of the craziest experiences I've had in the game so far and I don't mean that in a positive way. First and foremost: I'm so done dealing with these girls, man. Not only does dating take time away from my purpose and self-actualization journey, but the quality of women that I'm meeting are not even worth the sacrifice. There's always something fucked. Either she has multiple children at a very young age, or we're incompatible in our love-languages, or the sex is terrible, or she's just blatantly irresponsible, or she has some mental issue or crazy STI, or whatever. There's always something! But this last situation takes the cake for one of the WORST experiences I've had in the dating game in the last 10 years, no joke. Funny thing is that I took the entirety of June off from dating in order to reground myself and build a lifestyle that felt good for me independent of outside forces. Come July, I decided to get back in the game again with this new foundation established and literally the FIRST girl I get involved with leaves me completely traumatized! STORY-TIME -- literally shaking while I'm typing this -- Met this lady through daygame on the 1st of July. It was a short interaction where I found out that she was visiting my city from a nearby country because she wanted to check out the vibes and decide if she wanted to move here. She's beautiful, petite, in the mood for an adventure with the possibility of something more if she decides to stay, so "Sweet," I thought. We exchanged numbers and made plans to see each other this weekend when I would show her around the city. Unexpectedly, however, we spontaneously met later on that same day, after a little bit of texting, and she ended up spending the night (no sex, though, she was a virgin so we decided not to rush it). Fast forward a couple days and I end up seeing this girl yesterday again but this time I spent the night at her hotel and also spent a good chunk of today with her, too. The vibe was very sexual, romantic, sweet, cuddly, adventurous, open, vulnerable, etc. I wasn't even thinking about sex much because we were having so much chemistry together. Awesome, right? Well.. come to find out, this girl migrated to my city because her family basically disowned her, she has no friends, has a pending court date because she amassed MASSIVE debt due to using credit cards to buy shit for herself without the intention of ever paying it back, has stolen her parents' car without having a driver's license, has no money nor ANYWHERE that she could possibly go after she checks out at her hotel -- which basically means she might end up homeless yet seems very unbothered about that -- and keeps joking around that she wants to get married and have babies together. As I progressively learned more and more of the above points of interest, I went from empathetic, to sympathetic, to worried about her, to then suspicious of her, then straight up afraid that I may have ended up with a girl who is looking to move in with me, to horrified that I am dealing with a very unstable person -- that last part, I came to when I excused myself to the bathroom this morning to rub one out in order to harness the divine wisdom of post nut clarity. We had plans to spend the whole day together exploring different free festivals in the city but it was becoming obvious that this isn't a girl that I want to get super involved with but that I also couldn't just let her fend for herself. I literally had to reprimand her multiple times about the fact that she's not taking her situation seriously and that she should be coming up with a plan for what the hell she's gonna do when her checkout date (tomorrow, on sunday) comes! I did a shit ton of research on her behalf to find woman-friendly shelters and various organizations that could help her. When I finally came up with a plan for her, I took her back to her hotel room pre-maturely and basically let her know that this aint gonna work out but I wanna help her by accompanying her to the shelter and assisting her in getting in contact with the right people. She denied my offer, understandably, because she was hurt that I didn't want to be with her and after a fucking hour of trying to comfort her enough so that we can discuss the VERY URGENT PRACTICAL MATTERS AT HAND, I decided that we weren't getting anywhere and I should just leave and go home -- which I did -- only to receive a suicide note in the form of a whatsapp message from her, saying that she's gonna hurt herself and wishing me the best! Holy %$^# shit. Now I'm freaking out. I call the police, asap, and give them whatever info they need to intervene before anything happens to her. After 20 minutes, they call me and they start asking me very specific questions about "my side of the story" and I'm getting a weird vibe from the officer. He's asking me where I live, my social security number, the nature of my relationship with this girl, the extend of our physical intimacy, etc. And I'm thinking to myself now "ah, shit... what did this crazy girl say to the police, man.." Anyway, I know I didn't do anything wrong so I answer truthfully and then ask the officer if there's any way he can assist the girl by getting her to a shelter or something. He's like "Nah, dude, we're police officers not Green Peace" (he didn't say that, but that was basically the subtext behind his words). Anyway, we hang up and now this girl is blowing up my phone freaking out about me calling the police on her, me not wanting to be with her, accusing me of manipulating her, then begging me to come back to her hotel and talk, then she switches back to anger and accusations and I'm like "Dude... What. The. Fuck. Did. I. Get. Involved. With." I'm leaving a lot out because I could write a whole paper on the events that transpired but I basically ended up having to block her because she kept fucking texting and calling me. Before I did, though, I did send her all the info that she needs to find shelter and get help in case she does end up homeless. And now here I am, in the peace of quiet of my room, with my cortisol levels spiked to infinity and contemplating my entire life. I literally took a break from all dating and socializing in order to ground myself in love and build a life that fulfills me, which I successfully did, and the MOMENT I come back to the game, this shit happens. I'm so upset, man! I'm seriously contemplating staying single for life at this point. Women may have brought out the best in me in the past and have been present during some of the best experiences of my life, but they have also been responsible for some of the absolute WORST and now that I have experienced the level of fulfillment that is possible when one is just doing their own thing in isolation, it makes no sense to risk ever dealing with shit like this again in the future. If you read this far: Thank you, so much. I needed a listening ear.

Reading that, it sounds like you naturally have just so much intense energy, I also have in some way but for me it's kinda the opposite of the sort of extroverted tendency im getting from you. For me, the intense energy inside makes me struggle to engage with the world at all, even sometimes with basic chores, or just with replying. It has been very exhausting at times, so ive always sort of had this tendency where I try to release the pent up energy. I also recently from this kundalini rising energy (it seems to be that, based on descriptions), have developed another thing keeping me "imprisoned " and its this "forced sleepiness". I can literally, it happened as I was writing this, I just get"wave" of sleepiness that feels like I dont have it in me to fight back, but I tend to naturally find way to wake up again (not literally but it reminds me of it) , for example saying something more authentic than what I said before the sleepiness wave. Very random but basically to sum this up what I said: I am so "inside", that I can feel very limited in my engagement with the world because if I do something that isn't properly "aligned", I either get sleepy or zone out. One of the most craziest examples I have of how strong it can be for me, is that one time when I was talking to my mom (she is textbook definition of neurotic, and people lose their shit on her so its not just me saying this) it felt like I literally "lost consciousness" for a few seconds. I mean like going unconscious and even losing vision for a few seconds. It was a bit disturbing to me actually because it fed this thought in me of feeling like I have the potential to be controlled if I dont do the right thing (for example in this case, trying to engage with someone with "bad energy"). Not controlled from outside by entity or something , but literally just like the most extreme versions of "zoning out" that I didnt even know was possible before i experienced it. I got the thought, what if you can just be transported into some other realm to "learn a lesson" and then come back here. Ok maybe later I'll read this again and regain some sense of "theres people around that can see this" and chose to delete, but whatever. I mean, you went on absolute rampage talking about your life, so then I feel theres not much rules in what I say, I can deviate off topic however much I want. Ok back to the topic ahaha. Or no idk what to say at all. Idk about you but when I write authentically like this without much inhibition I feel increasingly "emptied", maybe I said it before. Ok I can mention some thoughts I thought was funny when I read you insane life story. One of the first things I thought when you mentioned the sailing, was that it reminded me of Christopher Columbus😂. I dont know the details of what he did but I remember he sailed to America or something and thats insane, because in history class in school, even then I thought it sounded unbelievable. I almost couldn't comprehend that a human can do that, survive, and actually, just keep themselves attentive to what's happening for so long, because I imagine it requires so much attention, how do you not lose yourself in it, is what im thinking. Also the mentioning of military. I nearly had to go do it too, but I had epilepsy when I was younger, and it had healed, but the tapering off the meds took really long. So when I was filling in the form with the questions for the military screening or whatever it's called, I realized that being on the meds was this one single thing that prevented me from having to go. Actually, my memory tells me I even had quit the meds, but the question was "have you taken meds for one of the following conditions lately", so I was hanging on a thin thread with the hope of not having to do the military. Because I didnt want to at all, it would be such deep waste of time, is what I thought. So when I realized that the only thing that saved me from it was taking those meds recently, I thought to myself how the epilepsy was a literal blessing. "thank you lord" hahahah. I can also relate to this thing about people having suspicions , but not nearly as severe as in your case. But it is so ingrained in people, to judge what's outside the norm in a way that makes them uncomfortable, that even if im not argumentative barely at all, someone can still be creeped out or something and say judgey things. Its not a problem to be judged for me, but when they are involved in my life and I care about them and they have ability to affect my life happenings, then its relevant issue. In your case with your sister, thats next level. If I lived like that I would feel like id have to be vigilant every day or something about every move I make . But also the opposite could happen, what if you kind of came up with some "speech" or something ., You speak so much here on this forum, youre good at writing, what if you could channel it into some spectacular soul crushing speech to them. Basically gathering as much of those people that resent you for living like you do, perhaps bring them onto your boat if they dare. Then you tell them everything you want to say, and if they aren't convinced, if they still believe youre a psycho etc and you feel they could call police at any moment if they wish, then you could just throw them in the water maybe? Like the opposite of Noahs Ark (im not planning this writing idk where im getting these analogies from 😂) Because you wrote in that first sentence that the people in the forum could commit suicide, but what have they even done , at most maybe called you a charlatan or something?? It sounded very harsh to me that sentence, and im not an easily offended person. Consider, that there may be some discrepancy between how you think youre being percieved vs how youre actually percieved , and how you sense judgment that may not be there much at all from someone. I hope it's not too difficult to read, but I dont feel like revising it right now so. But just, you may be exceptional at this ability to access the open nature, but consider that you may very well be flawed more than you realize in your ability to percieve "self" in both yourself and others. Maybe you are good at describing the very basic structure of it, basically "the nature" of it, but then the things that are more about how it expresses itself, then there may be some misunderstandings there, hence why I get like a little hostile sense from you sometimes but it doesn't seem from my perspective that the other person is judging you barely at all (im thinking mainly of two users, you know, the white man with the suit that writes romantic sounding poetry and ends it with "inshallah" only to write "namaste" the next day, trying to be some kind of "mr worldwide". Then we have that one vegan, who wouldn't even hurt a sardine, and has written cute emojis at the end of some non dual texts, but still somehow you manage to percieve these two as if theyre judging you, rather than just finding it stimulating to discuss or something??) I could elaborate but, I feel I am putting myself too much out there now perhaps. Might revise later, but its good sometimes to just write whatever comes up, then post, notice the engagement or sometimes lack thereof (maybe feeling embarrassed, could pop up) but its okay for now. If you can write 17 k posts about nature of reality and that crazy reply you sent me about your life, then it's fine I write this soup I just wrote. Hope youre well, and perhaps also someone else out there who even bothered to read this mess

We're running in circles and I'm over here explaining how basic influence works because you failed to answer yes to this question: "Would you agree that suicide-permission messaging broadcast at volume to a receptive audience pushes the number up?" And if you don't like that one, omit the descriptor: "Would you agree that suicide messaging broadcast at volume to a receptive audience pushes the number up?" Yes or no? If your answer is "no", then for the argument to continue, I would have to explain how influence works, but I'm not super excited about that, lol. Not sure how you deduced my logic leads there. Do you think I'm saying Leo is directly responsible for specific suicides? I'm making an entirely different argument: Leo's and AO's stance and rhetoric is "contributory". Was Netflix DIRECTLY responsible for suicides? No, it doesn't work like that because suicide is a process. If the suicide motive is to end suffering, that process is largely a building up of courage, reasons, and other collections of ideas and thought experiments like what-if scenarios and things like this. The process is unpredictable and volatile. Say you're online and come across someone who says they want to end it and you tell them "stop bitching and do it already", then they do it. Are you responsible? Not DIRECTLY, but you contributed. I'm simply saying to stop contributing because you never know where someone is in the process or how they’ll use your ideas. Leo's "only one way to find out" was tossing a match into a tinderbox and if the user was at a low enough point, it could have supplied them the spark they needed, depending on their circumstances at the time of reading the message. Maybe they just finished fighting with their family and maybe they were drunk and then someone they respect says "only one way to find out", then that's enough for them. This is how this stuff works. You can rarely, if ever, point to one specific thing. If you don't think Netflix is responsible in any way shape or form, I'm not going to be able to get through to you. Lol, nah bruh, too much mess.

I stated this in the other post about suicide. Leo is sloppy here on the forum. But I doubt he will be anymore.

The coke example is a repetition of the same strawman argument that I responded to by saying permission is not promotion. You are equating the two again, even though they are completely different and their effects are completely different. No one is advocating that you should commit suicide. In fact, you are told to avoid it at all costs. But if you've exhausted all of your options, then suicide might be a possible solution. That's very different from marketing coke. You cannot compare the two. The permission is specified with rules and conditions, while marketing plays on your basic desires unconditionally. Interesting example. Reminds me of when "13 Reasons Why" first came out. I watched it and thought it was stupid as all the reasons were silly from my pov. Hannah had no real reason to commit suicide. All that's happened to her was high-school scandal and some light bullying. And yet she killed herself and recorded 13 reasons for why she did so. By your logic, Netflix is directly responsible for many suicides. Yet, the law gave Netflix the right to broadcast it even after it was sued for it. If you have a problem with the law, that's another story. Yes, I'm serious. I'll take that as you conceding. Message is not delivery. Someone can be bad at delivering a message. That doesn't make the message false or harmful, just the way it's delivered.

I'm confused. I wonder if you've misinterpreted something I said because what I'm saying is very basic. Why does Coke pay Kim Kardashian 100k to sip on a Coke during her live stream? And why is it that the more influencers you get doing that, the more Cokes get sold? If you're trying to say something like "We can't prove that any one specific individual is drinking Coke because of Kim Kardashian's influence", then yeah, you're right, and I don't need to because that's not my claim. My claim is that the more influencers drink Coke, the more Cokes get sold. This is not up for debate. Now, swap out Cokes for permissive-suicide messaging. The more influencers offering those messages, the more suicides will occur. This is a provable fact in behavioral science literature. It has to do with your specific claim of "No one would even consider suicide unless they're going through unbearable suffering." And I gave you a specific example that makes the falsehood clear. I could provide many more examples. For instance, a man crushed by debt and worried about his family and so he offs himself so they can get the insurance money. Or he offs himself because the thought of being a failure seems unbearable because he doesn't yet know how to deal with the feeling of being a failure. Or how about Hitler, was he in unbearable suffering when he pulled the trigger? How about a 15 year old girl caught up social media and feeling like she's not beautiful and she's isolated and wants the suffering to stop. That's not unbearable, inescapable suffering. It's a hard time that she can make it through, and her environmental influences can either contribute to seeing her through or contribute to her ending it all. Obviously, there are different motives for suicide, but you're right that I'm specifically talking about suffering. But it seems you're collapsing or equivocating "objectively unbearable" and "subjectively unbearable". The majority I've been speaking of feel that it's "subjectively unbearable", as in, they can't imagine a way out. They're suffering from thoughts and feelings, not from truly unbearable, debilitating pain. These are exactly the types of people most susceptible to harm from suicide-permissive messaging and they can, and obviously ARE influenced all the time. Lol, you serious bro? I ain't even touchn' this one. See, this is why I've been confused this whole time. When you look at Leo's response there and call it terrible, as in "the messaging has a negative effect", you're AGREEING with me because you know that it's exactly what I've been calling it: common sense. That's what it is, and you just arrived at it without a study.

I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again: ketamine done under medical supervision is a legitimate way to wake someone up from their nightmare of wanting to die from suicide. One trip isn’t enough, you need to do it a handful of times. I died on Ketamine multiple times and realized myself as God. I will never, ever forget those experiences. It saved me and made me realize how powerful I really am.

This has nothing to do with my personal metaphysical views or feelings. I'm making a logical argument for harm reduction in a community that often deals with suicidal desire. I believe rhetoric around death and suicide in such a community should be highly controlled. And I believe that anything that even hints of suicide permission shouldn't be allowed, which is why I said the default position should be "it's always bad" or it shouldn't be spoken of at all. I'm not trying to optimize for what is philosophically true. I believe some suffering suicidal humans going through a rough patch are better off not having access to thousands of pages of text that glorify death, because I think that leads to more harm than good. If it led to more good than harm, I'd be for it. I'd have a different opinion if this community wasn't filled with suicidal people. If you found a way to keep all suicidal people out and if your metaphysical discussions involving showing interest in death were kept behind a wall, where only mentally healthy members could view it, I think it's totally fine to discuss whatever you want. But of course that's not possible and you don't want to cut suicidal people out of your community. So the only way to handle it is to moderate it. There's a reason why WHO and every major news organization has strict protocols around how they report on suicide. They never put it on the front page of a newspaper because if you do that, you increase suicide rates. It's called the Werther effect. They follow protocols like this: They don't avoid this shit because they're "woke". They do it because otherwise, they'd contribute to suicide and suffering.

I agree. I'm saying the existence of positive or permissive suicide messaging increases suicide rate. This is absurd (best term I could find, not trying to be insulting). Is a 14 year old having a temper tantrum and who wants to kill themself experiencing unbearable suffering? Have you heard of the Werther Effect? I didn't know about the name until I started engaging on this topic, but I already understood it. Maybe this is something fundamental you need to understand about this topic. The opposite of the Werther Effect is the Papageno effect, which shows that creating space to acknowledge and discuss suicide while emphasizing coping and making it through is associated with lower suicide rates. But that's not what's going on here. Also, if "permission" helps, then it also harms. You can't say permissive messaging doesn't emotionally impact the majority (because if someone is going to do it, they're going to do it anyway) and then say it does impact the minority. Everyone already knows there's an end. It's just a matter of making the decision. Of all the people who are contemplating the decision, a very small minority should hear the permissive messaging, because to broadcast permissive messaging to the majority is common-sense reckless, and there's no paradox to resolve here.

I agree, but we're dealing with some complex mental gymnastics and self-deception here. Leo's and his supporters on this claim not tightening up on the death/suicide rhetoric makes space and provides compassion for the stuck minority. This is their justification. My thinking was that by highlighting the prevalence of the majority, the cost-benefit would become clear, because it's just common sense. But Leo's supporters on this can't see it. I've since realized no argument would work to change Leo's behavior because this isn't really about making space for the stuck minority. It's about being free to make any statement you want. Figured this out from my armchair, lol. If it were truly about compassion, you'd be like "oh shit, yeah, that makes sense, I definitely shouldn't be saying things like this: "Only one way to find out" in a forum post titled "suicide consequences" where members are venting frustration and desire to suicide and asking questions about the afterlife. Everyone here should be able to look at this and call it reckless and irresponsible. And given the patterns, deduce his rhetoric on this topic is not about compassion. A compassionate person would not act like this.

Does it really matter what the percentages are? If even one individual can be saved by a less lax position on suicide then it's worth it. The problem is it's not 100 percent one way or the other. So there is a dilemma for guys like Leo who teach over you tube. The audience could be anyone. Notice with his retreat there is heavy screening. You can't do that here so you should be much more careful in what you put out since you can't regulate the audience. But ask yourself why he doesn’t just accept anyone for his retreat but he will teach his deepest stuff to anyone. Well..until a certain video was pulled. So he gets it... It's a matter of keeping to that standard.