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Psychedelics are awesome when done together with meditation. I believe that efficient meditation systems (like for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown), explained in an efficient way, plus Psychedelics (but with coaching from somebody who has walked the path to the end and knows the traps) is the future. Where there is potential, there are (as ususal) also risks and traps. Let's look at Wilbers perspective on the risks and downsides: Main Points from Wilber: The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. That somehow it just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it doesn't quite cause the transformation. It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David data will say that you know for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation permanent transformation it has to be basically in endogenous and not exogenous it has to be has your own. See my Endohuasca-Theory and Links to it above. The people that do use both and use it as a sacrament I think an enormous bit out of it. My personal opinion: When you think that the meditation path to make it permanent is not doable for you (for whatever excuse, like genetics) , or seems to unpleasant, maybe you use an inefficient meditation system. Try the one a mentioned above (Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown). I get no roalties or kick-back-paymanents by the way, just love the method/system Agreed, most meditation system on the market have an abysmal "success" rate of Enlightened Ones. But there are some really good ones also. And non of these efficient systems have used Psychedelics + good coaching on top. That is where I believe is the future. Exploring the Multiverse is all nice and important and a wonderful pioneering effort. But as soon as you draw your love/happiness out of the sublime beautiful experiences/understandings, you are playing the same samsaric game of every unenlightened sentient being chasing good emotions to avoid suffering, the usual merry-go-round-cycle. But on a very high level, with quite a show . When psychedelics boost the narcissm/grandiosity of the separate self, well: Best regards from Maya, she just loves you too much to let you go... If you can be "gaslit" on any realization from psychedelics and need to put your foot down: Well, probably the realization of your True Identity (Reality itself) is a bit shaky, or a bit preliminary. The Real Thing can't be shaken. Because You are It, like in "never can not be It". And if you dragged home an alien from I don't know where, and feel like you have become the special-alien-of the day, maybe check if you have received a very seductive love-letter from Maya herself, and consider ordering the Men in Black for the Alien, together with their Flashthing/Neuralyzer that can make you forget: https://meninblack.fandom.com/wiki/Neuralyzer And maybe that Neuralyzer makes you full empty, makes you get rid of the last filters of the separate self, which are just a very very empty, already nondual/mere appearance "feeling" of individuality, a vastly intelligent, potentially "alien" nondual nothing, understanding a lot of the mechanisms of God and the Universe, but still a nothing with the last filter attached to it: Individuality-Arisings (in Wilbers wording, the Transparent Witness, see Religion of the Future), "seeing/looking at" a vast mere appearance Multiverse hovering in Nothingness. So not fully empty yet. And that is the "last few percentage clouds" blocking stable realization, or the sudden Full Enlightenment. Because if the last filters/elements of the separate self go, you can sustain the realization/bliss sobre in daily life.... . Because, if you understood/got rid of all separate self filters IN the psychedelic state, why shouldn't you be able to keep that Realization in daily life? The world gets a shimmering lucid hologram like imagined appearance-illusion-show when you have engaged your Endohuasca-System, which is done with getting rid off these last separate-self elements, see my previous post. At least my experience, and that of countless others in the history of mankind. Why should exactly the Psychedelic-Aficionado not be able to do that? No Endohuasca-system? Well, the receptors in the body seem to be working just fine... Or maybe a different Buddha-Nature? Sorry, just kidding... And if there is no Neuralyzer around, maybe try an efficient meditation system, get to the last stages of Nonmeditation-Yoga (spontaneous automized meditation without a doer still active) And after having used the Neuralyzer or an efficient meditation system, after having looked deeply into the Empty Abyss of your own True Nature/Nothingness, when you are really everything because you are really totally Nothingness (with no 5% clouds remaining), maybe then go hunt for the alien again. But this time, not for getting the love and sweetness of Understanding-experiences or whatever to break the cycle of suffering, but to express the bliss and love of your True Nature that you have then 24/7 going on from your own core. And if one feels gaslit about what I have just written, see the point above: "If you can be "gaslit" on any realization from psychedelics and need to put your foot down: Well, probably the realization of your True Identity (Reality itself) is a bit shaky, or a bit preliminary. The Real Thing can't be shaken. Because You are It, like in never can not be It." And if in doubt: Call these gentlemen, let them take care of the Aliens, look at the Neuralyzer/Flashthing, and get fully empty. But still, the Psychedelic pioneers, facing the unknowns of the Multiverse, exploring Alien intelligences, some even catching an Alien beast or two and dragging them home, going alone boldly to where no one has gone before, facing dangers that nobody else faced before... If there is some material for the movies of the future looking back to our time, where if not there is the true hero's journey to be found... I just hope that they get back from the trips, integrate their experience, get their mindstream awakened all the time, and live happily realized ever after, radiating the love of their own True Being, and maybe even getting the roalties from the upcoming movies of the Psychedelic Heros Journey based on their biography! Bon voyage! In the meantime, It’s for sure one of the most interesting shows on this planet to be seen. At least, it for sure has my attention! Respectfully Yours & mind the possibility of the Bear Manoeuvre in the signature-link below Selling Water by the River

Beautiful post, agree on all of that. Enlightenment is both a state (Understanding/Realization and certain energetic nondual/mere groundless appearance state) but also a waking up/removing the clouds to the Reality/True Self/Enlightenment that is always here, that is Absolute Reality itself, and when called Buddha Nature the core of each sentient being, and knowing that to have always been the case. Like with many pointers to the Absolute, the pointers highlight only one side of the coin, like Advaita True Self/Absolute Consciousness (positive definition), and Buddhist Madhyamaka Emptiness (negative definition). And in Absolute Reality, these paradoxes collapse, since they all point to the same Reality/"thing/referent". Absolute Reality contains the pointers. Once realized, there is no paradox or contradiction left, it makes fully sense and couldn't be any different. It doesn't stay paradoxical. I also believe (but I can't proove it) there is a kind of "Endohuasca-System", that when one is (1) proficient enough with the separate self arisings (like knowing them, even the most subtle ones, like a separate self feeling/sensation/localization/concept/... ), and (2) is fast enough in spotting them/cutting them off (since they arise much much faster than normal thinking, like maybe 20-30 arisings of separate self sensations per second, while thinking "against" these arisings brings maybe maximum 1-3 thoughts elaborated per second, if at all). that explains why you can't "think" your way to shutting off the separate self, thinking is just too slow. It has to be automized, Nonmeditation Yoga-style of the Mahamudra-System. Spotting them when you know their nature as Emptiness/Consciousness/Suchness immedeately cuts them off, at least with some proficiency in the Skill of Reckognition of the Mahamudra-System (see Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown). funny thing is: When one tries to do that, the emerging of thoughts frequency gets much faster. Like a protection-mechanism of the Illusion/Maya. When I learned to finally be fast enough and got faster than this increased speed of thought-emergence, and didn't get distracted or "captured" anymore by the high-speed-emergence-flow of thoughts, the following happened: (1) and (2) trigger some kind of "Endohuasca-System" in the body, which removes the solidity of the visual field, makes it increasingly luminous/hologram/mere appearance/groundess floating in Infinite Nothingness, like Psychedelics do. And it also bring a lot of bliss. https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ That was at least my experience: first major parts of the separate self Gestalt Structure/emerging thoughts go, then the visual field/world becomes nondual/luminous/mere appearance hovering in Infinite Nothingness and with that as a basis, more and more subtle separate self elements/clouds go and all of that in a funny merry-go-around (meditation experience/state -> Realization/Understanding -> Deeper meditation experience/Luminosity/... -> Deeper Realization/Understanding of more subtle separate self element, ....) , like a positive feedback-loop, slowly burning away the clouds. Which can sound maybe harsh or bad or unpleasant, but it is exactly the opposite. Somewhere along the path it was learned that these separate-self arisings are to a large part all the unpleasant stuff, suffering, dissatisfaction,... , and that evaporated as well. And while resting in a very mindful, empty state, when the mind-stream starts getting nondual (and even before that), I learned that I can produce my own good emotions/states, like directly getting the bliss from within. That disabled then slowly all the separate self arisings that didn't feel well. So actually a lovely process, best thing that has ever happened to me. In the beginning, its difficult, but at some point it becomes quite pleasant and continues by itself. Pushing the rock over the mountain-pass, and then it rolls downhill without effort. Please excuse the length of my musings. Selling Water by the River

On a relative level, maps make sense. From the level of the Absolute Level, they are just appearances. Did you notice that you yourself just "drew" a map with your post? Giving higher importance to "no map" on a relative level? Good maps on a relative level can point to the Absolute (and how you can rest in your True Being) as long as they never claim to be more are more than a finger pointing to the moon. If we take the moon as a metaphor for the Absolute. A good map is your boat to the other shore. The finger pointing to the moon. A signifier pointing to its referent. Cast your boat/map into the stream when you are there (or directly before, Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra-system for example), but not before.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Yes. I thought for a long time that the Absolute is maybe somehow "behind" space, or being bigger than the Visual Field (that was already at least sometimes nondual at that point in time). Or that it encompasses the visual field. At some points, it dawns on oneself that all of these "probings", attempts, investigations.... are just more arisings happening within you. And the space is imagined IN YOU. If you try to looke for this line, drawing this line, imagining this line, you imagine it WITHIN the space you imagine. It all appears or is being imagined. You will never find the Absolute in any object, any arising, any location. Any self, any appearance, any anything. But this process of "emptying out" everything, to fully BECOME it, to see each an any arising (thought, appearance, understanding, whatever,n+1) as arising in YOU, you have to become fully empty. Nothingness. But yet, that process has to be walked earnestly to the final end, and can not be shortcut. Also because the Absolute is also infinite, IN-FINITE. Nothing you can measure, find, define. Nothing finite. No arising/appearance, however subtle. Even formless arisings (thoughts, formless subtle level lightshow, whatever), are not it. Because IT is timeless. Always there. Formless arisings also come and go. Nice book on that topic: Szyper, Infinite Consciousness. And then, when You are fully empty, you can be fully everyting, nondual. A more concise formulation, and much more beautiful than my ramblings above: “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.” ― Kalu Rinpoche Perfect. If the thinking can solve all open existential questions, you can rest in the Suchness that you are. Nonmeditation-Yoga. You cut off all separate self arisings in real time (since you are proficient enough in that "cutting off" immediately when these "thought-capsules" arise out of consciousness. They havent even been elaborated out, that comes later. Funny thing is, at some point you notice they emerge with the full content of the thought already "in there", and that gets elaborated later and more slowly. The Skill of Reckognition in Daniel Browns "Pointing Out the Great Way". Getting that high-speed cut-off in place triggered for me the step from just cutting thoughts/separate self arisings, aka emptying the mindstream while the "external" world is still solid & out there, to the visual field getting nondual, centerless, luminous mere appearance. So that transforms the Visual Field slowly to mere groundless appearances. You feeling localized ends, the localization dissolves. My theory for that (but I have no proof), is that the Endohuasca-System of the body gets activiated. To cut off efficiently all "Great Doubts/Questions", as I termed them for myself, like the questions above on the nature of space/time/separate self, you need to understand the answer and "how it works". Or you push through with Koan-Meditation concentration-style. That also works, but I feel very sure that this would have taken me 5-10 times longer, and would have been much much (!) more unpleasant. How to "finish" time Mahamudra/Pointing Out the Great Way Style, and end up at the so called "Always Here Mind", the eternal or rather timeless Infinite Consciousness, thats another topic. If you are interested let me know. That is described for example in the Yoga of Unelaboration Chapter of Pointing Out the Great Way. Assumption/Theory: Meditation-induced and body-produced Endohuasca (DMT, 5-MeO, ....): What I assume is that a certain level of proficiency of cutting/transcending of the "harder/deeper" searate self arisings, and the "hard/deeper" existential questions (like space/time/....), or transcending and letting them just play out, but being aware of them as objects, being able to cut them anytime, see their arisings out of consciousness, their flow with in, and their disappearance, triggers probably some kind of Endohuasca-System, your body producing similiar chemicals (DMT,5-MeO, MAO-Inhibitors....) that you can also trip with when supplying them externally. To trigger that means staying in full mindfulness for a long time, having taken the meditation off the pillow and not getting distracted. The effects are very similiar to Psychedelics (nonduality, luminous mere appearance, groundlessness of all appearance, Infinity, timelessness, even shutting off the separate self/Ego (although not completely mostly. Some quite subtle feeling/filters/lenses of perceptions of Individuality (sth watching sth.) often remain): https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ and that gives you the multiple hundreds/maybe thousands of hours that one needs in the "nondual timless infinite mere appearance visual field state" to get aware of every last subtle separate self arising. But that can be done in everyday life, at least while not being distracted too much. Of course, getting previews by psychedelics to confirm that there is something to be reached, to get to know the Nondual Infinite Field of mere appearance, maybe even visiting the causal Whiteout-Godhead of Infinite Potential: Awesome. But probably will not suffice in most cases to get one "on the other side". Then, finally, at the very end, the separate self is just a very very subtle feeling of individuality. Body, Location, Duality, time, all have gone a long time ago. Its just an Infinity of groundless mere appearance visual field showing up, limitless, already nondual(!) and luminous/mere appearing. And "a" nothing that is only aware of that. Like nearly nothing at all. Very very subtle and murky. Roger Thisdells No-Self, stage 4. And then you are ready for the Big Bang, that then can happen all by itself. Sudden Awakening. One can not force it. Crossing over happens by itself, resting long enough in that state, and letting it ripen. If one wants to do that only by tripping... well, I never read from or about one case where Full Enlightenment/Realization actually worked. But maybe there are cases. It takes too much time to get rid of the last subtle veils of the separate self, and by tripping you can also be distracted by the show/understanding/whatever. It always reads like some separate-self elements still well and alive and not transcended, no fully empty "No-Self" having looked totally in to the Abyss of Nothingness,but having had the hell of an infinite nondual mere appearance experience of a (for sure) very interesting visual field bubble or God or Alien or I don't know what. Plenty of stuff in the Multiverse to explore and understand, especially considering that it goes upwards the Holon-Pyramid forever (Planet-Monad creating/maintaining all perspectives on it, Galaxy-Monad, Universe-Monad, Multiverse-Monad, n+1). And plenty of stuff of the properties of God to project on the remains of the separate self... You are very welcome. I believe there are two elements installed in the universe, in order to not give Maya every advantage (she already has enough): 1.The radiating bliss/love of the Realized Being. 2. Any separate self teaching "down from up high" with any "superiority-raditation", marveling at its own ingeniuty/superiority is normally just keeping the illusion going, because: If you are all, how can you be superior to anything? Compassion and humility, and helping "others" look around the next corner of their own path, is indicated. Not sustaining the illusion with "I see the Matrix", and its "Saul Goodman". Sorry And luckily, that attitude isn't very sexy for the fellow seekers, see point 2. above. On the other side, how are realized Dzogchen-Realizers depicted in Tibetan Buddhism: Radiating great humor. Why? Nothing "other" holy anywhere.... at least nothing where making jokes is forbidden. But not a condencending/superiority humor that has fallen in love with itself. Because what is there that a "you" could be "superior" to? Superior to another aspect of Your Own Being? Easy way to cut reality in two or create duality, so a rather not so smart idea.... To tell the difference between these two kinds of humors, the hard-wirings of humans are usually quite well calibrated. Selling Water by the River

Hi Mike, I am not sure if I fully get your questions. If my answer below is not on topic, please excuse, and let me know. Below are some ramblings on the topic of space, and how it developed for me going from "self-existing-reality-aspect" to "imagined in Reality/Infinite Consciousness". which was one of the deciding steps boosting nonduality/mere groundless appearance in everyday life, making the constant intuiting of fundamental Nothingness/Reality much more proficient. At least for me, space itself was one of the last things to go from "self-existing" to imagined. "Time" as concept goes before, and is replaced by the Always Here Mind/Reality. Space is one of the first "Archetypes" necessary for manifestation in this dimension, and one of the last things to be seen through. Space is not fundamental (or self-existing), it is also imagined. Space (any kind, 3D, 4D, non-euclidian, whatever. Infinite amounts of different space-dimensions in Mathematics) is not any kind of Absolute Reality. It took me a long time to get this, thinking along quite similiar lines of thought as these you write above. Space is normally seen as such a fundamental that (at least for me) didn't even considering questioning that, or rather wondered how space "fits into the picture" of Ultimate Reality,which has cost me quite some time. The perspectives of Consciousness/Reality of the Leavitt picture (hyperbolic Euclidian Space of Visual Fields Bubbles, see previous posts) are not situated in any kind of space. The "Absolute or Nothingness/Primary Consciousness/Reality unaware of itself when no arising is imagined" is more fundamental than space. It is fundamentally totally spaceless. Space is imagined in it. As one of the first arisings. If there is nothing, there is no kind of space. Just Infinite Potential. See the Massaros Waterpistol example (Conversations with a Skeptic) I wrote about in previous posts. With space, I mean any kind of space, 3D, non-Euclidian, n+1 dimensions. Also, Indras Net is not situated in space. Leavitts Picture is a version of Indras Net. Both taken together are a nice working model. An Infinity of perspectives are imagined, and all but your own perspective forgotten in space. Psychedelics can loosen that quite a lot, you get access to more than "your" perspective of this life. But One Absolute Consciousness/Reality is aware of them all (since there can not be anything else than THAT, which is also a direct realization), and "that" also happens to be the stuff/material of all appearances, totally nondual. Perceptions perceiving themselves. And with no appearance/arising, this Reality is unware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. To make it more practical: If you have ever remained aware while going from Dream Sleep to waking state (or the other way round): There is a spaceless state in between, with NOTHING arising. Infinite. No Space. "vast", but not even vast. Just infinite. It is not 3D-Space. Just Nothing. No separate small you. Only Infinite Potential. Similiar to Deep Sleep (blackout), but like an infinite Nothingness/darkness suffused with light, timeless since there is no movement, just nothing. Your perspective is not situated in space then. Space gets imagined in the dream, and in "waking-life", so "before" or "after" THAT (and to be more precise, since there is no time/change in it, it all gets imagined IN IT). And of course, waking life is also a dream, just more coherent, happening in IT/You/Reality. With enough meditation/practice awareness can carry into these states, and instead of the usual Deep Sleep Blackout it can become something as described above, which of course makes the structure of reality more clear. Maya-Deep-Sleep-Blackout replaced by something more revealing (Infinite Darkness suffused with light, and not just a blackout). And I know, all of that is imagind right now, but these states still can occur. And its quite beneficial for understanding to experience them. All this logical reasoning can't get you to the big Awakening into what You really are. But a coherent explanation can help calm the thinking-mind during meditation (on or off the pillow), especially when its no longer only concentrative meditation, but meditation without concentration-support-object, and make it "compatible" for the Realization. And can help you boost your nondual/mere appearance visual field during that. With that goal, I write these lines. Not to logically get you to a conclusion/reasoning that you are IT, but to open the door to be available for that Realization in certain fully nondual states when you are fully empty of separate self arisings, and all perceptions appear as mere appearance. But I agree that the Zen-guys are way smarter than me: They would just mainly stay shut up, smile at you and make you meditate (boost nondual states), and say something like "go looking for the face before your parents were born". Which is actually the same thing I try to point to above. It is up for the reader if these ramblings of mine are of any worth. The Realization is a direct insight/understanding, Consciousness/Reality understanding itself, since there is nothing else. It is not "I always come to this conclusion, that is why I can rule out the rest, so that must be it". That is all nice and good (and necessary), some of the preliminary Awakenings/Enlightenments coming before the Big Bang, necessary to a certain degree and profiency to make the Mindstream "compatible" for the Big Bang. It is more like something undeniable, like a punch in the face. It is an unmistaken insight into what the True You/Reality are, no doubt/error possible. Self evident. Dead-certain (literally). The possibility that one can be gaslit on that Realization is something like a joke occuring in You/Reality. Or, as said in Zen: You can smile the devil in the face, and not be shaken in your certainty of What You are. Or: Who knows the spring does not drink from the cup. If "you" still can doubt it, it is not It. The more compatible your mindstream is with the Enlightened Mind (meaning no possible concept not seen through as thought arisings-in you, the last to go after space is "individuality" of a separate anything), the higher the chance for the Big Bang described above. Small "you" can't force it, but create circumstances where IT can happen (That is a large chunk of the essence of Nonmeditation-Yoga in Mahamudra). You become the whole Infinite "Thing" afterwards, with nobody watching "It". Perceptions perceiving themselves, Steven Norquist style. See my last post if you are so inclined. And yes, that haunted emptiness is the price to pay. But it just happens to look like there is a "real" price to pay, looking like that from before that Gateless Gate. Having gone through it, there never was a price to pay. To the opposite, you win It all. Everything. Everything there could ever be. What you "loose" is just the grip of the separate thinking/feeling arisings of the separate-self-Gestalt, which was nothing more than a a pattern of illusion-arisings (technically (and beware, reductionism ahead): patterns of phenomena-arisings of a separate self=structure=probability distribution of arising, a process of arisings with a certain systematic to it). Arising in you, but not self-existing: You can happily exist without it. What remains is Reality itself, and a person that isn't less functional than before, but more so (because you are not standing in the way of the optimal rollout of Consciousness/Reality). Short form: "I am not a human, I have a human". To fully get it, you need to awaken to it. Or said differently: If you would fully understand all of the above, you would be realized. On how long its stays "haunted", and how much this haunted reaction lasts: I write more about that in my last post. Maybe that is interesting for you, and I hope I didn't miss the questions too much. If I would have known that back in the day, I would have been faster and could have avoided some time-consuming mistakes. That is why I write it, not to lecture anybody or proove any fixed ideas of mine. The Ego is in large parts a cluster of beliefs, which it has to defend life-or-death style, because for the Ego its exactly that (at least with important core-beliefs). Similiar to what the bear does in the video in the signature of the post. If its not useful for you, just disregard it. In case I rambled on, please excuse the deviation. Selling Water by the River PS: If anyone feels inclined to comment on the post, please check if the bear-move in the link below (signature of the post) is being performed or not, and preferably the Blackeyes Peas and "Where is the love" (or something similiar) is being played in your emotional continuum. Then, any questions, comments, and suggestions are even more welcome than when the song is not playing. PSPS: "If God as you say are exploring though us does that mean those two bodies in that conversation is not looking at each other but that God is imagining and holding both of them within itself? And all these ideas of eyes and perception that aren’t actually in my direct experience are the ways I’ve been taking a false ownership of what’s really God’s experience of the other body as something belonging to my body?" Yes, pretty much like that. Various aspects: 1) Leavitts Non-Euclidian perspectives style, and most perspectives forgotten + 2) Indras Net that any perspective reflects all others + 3) aspect that for example even an atom or molecule has some kind of proto-perspective, reacting on similiarly leveled perspectives (=Holons in Ken Wilbers system, and similiar leveled = other molecules). And Holons/Perspectives all the way down (to infinity, quarks, ....) and all the way up (to infinity, like Galaxy-governing-monads, Universe-governing-monads, Multiverse-creating/sustaining/governing monads, and infinitely higher up n+1, and also completely "OTHER" realms, unimaginable to human mind with space/time/.... For that, see Jac O'Keeffe). And then one could start wondering of how much of that one can have explored/understood of all that manifested stuff in one single human lifetime. Next to Nothing. Infinitesimal so to say, if one is mathematically-prone. So maybe instead one fully realize ones essence and structure of Ultimate Reality/True You as Infinite/Nondual/Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness, and LIVE THAT as much as possible? With the bliss it brings? Not to talk about the "hang-over" of the (imagined of course) good Karma/tendencies that brings for ones next imagined manifestation (only if one is inclined to believe in that, which is of course not absolutely real, but part of the imagined show). But that would still be nice for the big show that "we" are all celebrating here So basically, with that model above, you don't need space as self-existing reality. Any maybe consider replacing the God word with some bundle like "Infinite Consciousness/Reality/God/True You". Just to not project/make God some self-existing external reality outside of you. Ultimate Reality is nondual, Infinite Consciousness Nothingness perceiving its own manifestations, perceptions perceiving themselves without separate self elements "clouding" the true state of things. God is not somewhere outside. God is right here. What imagines all of that? Biggest possible accident: Projecting/Confusing the Individuality-Arisings of the Separate-Self-Gestalt on God/Reality/Infinite. That is the worst possible seductive kiss from Maya imaginable. Yet, quite a show....

Try an efficient meditation system, like for example "Pointing Out the Great Way" by Daniel Brown. Get your meditation going first on the pillow, Learn to spot any thought/concept arising directly when it emerges from consciousness/emptiness, see it move in that, and dissolve back into that. Then get the meditation "automized" Nonmeditation-Yoga-Style without any effort or artificial activity, the meditation doing itself (advanced stage). That gets the separate-self-arisings "doing" the meditation out of the way (they are just more thought-arising). Then move it into every-day life (Postsamadhi-Meditation). Then, your visual field will start becoming nondual and empty, like a hologram. Bliss without any cause starts to flow, the normal feeling good- feeling bad cycles of the separate self stop. Then, remove all remaining subtle filters/lenses/centers of the separate self arisings, learn to see/spot them fast enough and not "see through them"/"not looking out from them", until only the Nondual Infinite Awareness Space remains, and all perceptions appearing as mere imagined appearances, empty, lucent and hologram-like, moving in "It", perceptions perceiving themselves. And then check "WHO" is aware of that Infinite Nondual Field of mere appearance, with thoughts and world-objects moving and appearing in it like the wind, moving through You.Then, at one point, suddenly even the last feeling of an empty nonlocal witness perceiving a kind of Infinity/Totality will drop, totally becoming one with field. One without a second. Maybe even the One Hand will give you a clap then. The One without a second, initially unaware of itself when no arisings move (Nirvikalpa, Cessation, Deep Sleep,...), but with the potential for sentience. Always eternally right here now. And then, maybe consider the Empty Mirror Job Opening. Selling Water by the River PS: @GLORY "No they can be awake Or maybe even Awake But they are not AWAKE™" May I borrow that somtimes from you? I just love it PS: And whatever precisely the latest definitions of God Realization/awakening/alien awakening/.... are for Leo these days, the writer of these lines probably respectfully disqualifies for that.

Learn cutting off (or seeing them for what they are, as objects moving in you) your separate self arisings (thoughts and feelings) in your mindstream. They will get/arise faster and faster, and you can see them emerging out of consciousness as consciousness, and being elaborated in language afterwards. I had to read "Pointing out the Great Way," by Daniel Brown (chapters Skill of Reckognition and Yoga of Unelaboration) ten times plus to get it, and try a lot in implementing it. Pointing out the Great Way is a synthesis and summary of the Mahadmudra-System of Tibetan Buddhism. If you learn to cut off these mental arisings, at first they get faster and faster (Skill of Reckognition). That is some kind of protection mechanism of the separate self/Ignorance/Maya. Look into their nature, they arise out of empty and aware consciousness, they are not separate from consciousness, and they return to consciousness. But the tricks of the separate self mindstream arisings are limited, at some point you know all these separate self arisings (thoughts and feelings). The first shift comes when you can cut them all off and stay in the Awareness that you are (Skill of Reckognition). From that point onwards, bliss develops just from doing that. And later, it starts getting vast spaciousness and nondual. And you realize the Always-Here-Mind (Yoga of Unelaboration). That You/Mind/Reality doesn't come and go on time, but is always here, eternal and fundamental. And then you develop full Nonduality of the Visual Field as mere infinite appearance (Yoga of One Taste), and from there on fully "empty out" the separate self in Nonmeditation Yoga (Awakened Awareness being Reality itself). Up until this first shift (Skill of Reckognition, see above), meditation can be pleasant or unpleasant. After this shift, you generate your own happiness, on the pillow and off the pillow. In Mahamudra its called the three special states of bliss, clarity and nonconceptual stillness. And try some Psychedelics as preview for Nonduality/infinite Visual Field of mere appearance, and to empty out/transcend the separate self. Just don't expect that you have enough time in these states to empty or transcend that last remnants of the separate self (very subtle feelings of individuality/separtness watching some kind of infinity) fully. If it all gets transcend permanently, great and Namaste! But if you can't sustain that state sobre, maybe some separate self arisings still happen to cloud over the infinite mere appearance awareness-space that You are. All the best ( : Selling Water by the River

Selling Water by the River, todays water batch: Difference between Awakening and Enlightenment: Enlightenment: You had to cut/transcend every subtle separate sense feelings/thought (very subtle ones, very hard to spot). Then you are fully empty, which is your True Condition. Then, all separate self arisings arise in you, and move in you, but you are not only them. They move in you like the wind. The wind is also you, but you are not only the wind. They are fully transcended. Why is that necessary to fully understand Absolute Reality, or what You are? What you are can be fully empty. Like, nothing at all. Total Nothingness. When no arising is there, Absolute Reality/You is unaware of itself. But with the potential for sentience if something appears (for example, check Hawal and Massaro books). You are still there when all arisings disappear (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, your face before your parents were born). And if you want to understand what You are while forms still arising (like, in normal life), there can not be a subtle separate self/anything cutting the one infinite Unity of the Real You/Reality into a felt subject (Awareness) watching Infinity, even if it feels nondual or infinite. It has to become perceptions perceiving themself, no separate self anywhere to be found. You can not have separate Awareness separated from the field. The infinite field watches itself, literally does. And your body-mind moves in the Totality that you are. The thoughts and feelings of the former separate you are moving in in the True You like the wind. The bliss/love you generate in that state without needing anything external gives you autonomy from chasing externally generated bliss via experiences. It gives you total absolute freedom and love (Bassui below: You will be entirely free) If you understand that for your perspective, you understand that this holds for the structure of all perspectives/beings, for the whole Absolute Reality. Why? Because all perspectives are only form arising in the Absolute, any boundary from one perspective/being to another is either forgetting or form arising in Awareness, seeing itself. The advantage if do that sobre: You need a high developed state of nonduality/nonlocality/centerlessness/mere appearance of the visual bubble. You get that via meditation done correctly. Which doesn't need to be unpleasant or hard (although it normally takes quite a while), at least if done correctly, see for example Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown. If you feel centered in your head, and the outside world appears as solid, you can not understand the Nature of Reality, impossible. So this state is necessary for Enlightenment. But not sufficient. From that stage (Yoga of One Taste) for example, you can continue to dissolve the last remnants of the separate self (for example, Nonmeditation Yoga). And then you can have Insight into what you are. You will not miss that, its definitive. Also, and most important, you got a built in safety check/quality control: You will not cross over to full Enlightenment without fully transcending any and all separate self arising coming up (and the visual field being Nonduality, centerless and infinite). You can't fool yourself here. And you will understand when you are there. Why it is absolute. Awakening: The energetic state of Nonduality/Unity/Infinity with some remnants of separate self still not fully transcended, you can also get by Psychedelics. Which of course is useful in order to have an idea of the goal, a feedback loop to build this nonduality-state via meditation, on and off the pillow. But here, you get the nonduality/mere appearance with subtle remnants of the separate self still intact. You don't have the build in quality/safety mechanism of classic Full Enlightenment. So it is very easy to confuse these experiences for the final Realization of what you are. Everyone having experienced it claims this on the difference between Awakening and Enlightenment, see for example Frank Yang/Ralston/Wilber/Jac O'Keffee/Steven Wolinsky/... (anticipating certain feedback: "they are not awake, but enlightened". Well, with the definitions above I could agree). Enlightenment is in a different ballpark. And you can't imagine it without it fully happening. So it is not some mild form of "God-Realization", or Nothing. It is something of a different category. It is, to quote Ralston, fully understanding what You are and what Reality is. Without any separate self filters, however subtle, still active. So what happens if you value Psychedelic Awakenings or Understandings higher than fully being and realizing what you are? You guessed it: Reality doesn't let you off the hook, you still have psychological suffering. The separate self arisings cut you off from the full flow of love of your True Being for itself. So you need experiences to get this love flowing. For example the love you feel when understanding-experiences of the exquisite beauty of the design of Reality/Dimensions happen. Is anything with exploring Alien-Godminds wrong? For sure not, this understanding is probably among the most beautiful experiences you can have. I just feel it becomes problematic if you value getting the love the unenlightened separate self needs from these experiences, and valueing these understandings of Alien-Godminds higher than classic Enlighenment and fully understanding your True Nature, and resting in it. Why not pursue and value BOTH endevours on an at least equal basis? Not downplaying Enlightenment as somehow not on the same level or lower than any other insight into the appearance or form side of Reality (which is infinite). If what is stated above is correct, with one path one is lead to salvation (Enlightenment), and with the other path (Understanding/Awakenings), well.... best regards from Maya, but you get a medal from her with distinction for playing her game on the highest level possible. For the readers: You will probably not achieve higher level of bliss and love than your teacher using his teachings. And how these levels will develop: Well, we are in the prime seats here to see how it will continue. I don' think I have a high chance of convincing Leo. So that means that the job of convincing to develop via suffering (or hopefully only not being as happy and loving than one could be) stays where it always has been, and ever will be: Maya, CEO of Samsara. All the best, enjoy the ride and the show, and Namaste! Selling Bullshit Water by the River. PS: There is already water by the River, so I am too lazy to carry Bulls**t there. ( : Bassui: “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. ... If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none.

@axiom Fully agree on all points. I should have added some concluding remark from the Absolute side of the street, not everything from the Relative side of the street. >There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path. Totally agree, but for sake of teaching-efficiacy, the Mahamdura-system throws the stick with which one pokes and blazes the fire only into the fire when the fire is sufficiently burning. In the Mahamudra-System (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown), there is only effort or artifical activity (or a person) involved up until and including the stage 3 of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual). One learns to cut all thought- and emotion-arisings fast enough (Stage 1& 2). When one is proficient enough in that, the visual field starts getting nondual (Stage 3), the separation perceived before drops away, and the visual field gets an appearance-only quality, empty, hologram-style. Then, at stage 4 (Nonmeditation Yoga), this effort or artifical activity (or believing in a person or agent doing these things) gets dismantled, because cutting off the Illusion-thought-arisings has become fast enough and automatic. Together with that, the concept of a doer/person/agent gets pointed out as another concept, and the meditation does itself. Here, the mindstream aligns for the first time with the real state of things, that an understanding can happen there really is no person, just a bundle of I-thoughts/I-feelings arising. And of course, there was no person/individual in the past, only an apparant Gestalt that looked like that, and which one used to overlay ones true being (Infinite Conciousness or Reality itself) with, there isnt one now, and there never can or will be, only as an illusion or overlay on the real nature of things. Ones True Being is able to generate this illusion (magnificienlty), but is not dependend on it. The show can happen without it. But reality can generate this illusion. Basically then one goes full Tony Parsons (there is no person, nothing needs to be done), but only at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga and not before. If you do it before, certain qualities are not generated that one needs to conform to the enlightened mind (nonduality, mere-appearance/imagined hologram-like quality of the visual field, infinitesness of the visual field, space not as independend self-existing "thing" but sth. imagined in consciousness which consciousness doesnt need to imagine, time and memory happening in it now, that one cant get out of it because there is no outside, and some other stuff). And when all of that is in place, Basis-Enlightenment or Crossing Over can happen, which Brown describes (among other things): " Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btagspa), which drops away. … The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space " The description of enlightenment as a dropping away of any kind of separate-identity/person/individual arising is universal in all enlightenment descriptions. Don't worry, by definition, the real you can't go away - ever. Only an illusion is seen through and understood. And the real you can generate the separate-self Illusion-show, so nothing really is lost. Whats more fundamental is still there. So It sounds more negative than it is. Leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space: And if you have become so impersonal or universal consciousness (nondual) that you can have that state of huge nonduality/mere appearance of the visual field/infiniteness sobre, well then you have deconstructed your separate self enough. This is the Gate-Keeper of the Gateless Gate. This deconstruction is better said a high-speed-search-task-and-cutting-off of separate self illusion-arisings (I-feelings, I-thoughts, Trekchö-Style), and that is what boosts the nonduality and mere appearance aspect of the visual field, which is exactly what you can also boost with psychedelics, but with much more of the separate-self illusions still staying intact.... Frank Yang called that once the God-Mind-state. >From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going. Fully agree. And if it can happen natty in Nonduality-States, it can even more easily happen with doing only/mainly Psychedelics, because among other things, they exactly boost that Nonduality/mere apperance/infinite state. And if the separate self arisings are not fully seen through, you can get quite a show. And by the way, as Ken Wilber said, people doing both meditation and psychedelics, get the most out of it, so I am not against Psychedelics at all. Somebody made a very nice youtube-Channel on looking deep into the Abyss or Nothingness that precedes Nonduality: Prior to Non-Duality https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show... Beautiful video on that by Jac O'Keffee: and now, walking from the Relative Side of the Street a bit more towards its Absolute Side: In actuality, there is nobody selling water by the river, and nobody is buying it... And the short form, of all written above is: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! Enjoy the ride!

Thats true. Although it can take quite a while without psychedelics. That stage was variously called the One Taste (Yoga of One Taste), Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind, .... But who or what is aware of that? At that stage, there is still some nebulous murky identity arising, watching or being aware of this Nondual Big Self. Even in this Nonduality/Unity, there are the last remnants of the separate self (very subtle, hard to spot, takes some training) still arising. Roger Thisdell has some nice youtube-videos on that: Not Self - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (4/5) In Roger Thisdells System, it is his stage 4, which is beyond his stage 3 Big Mind, which is already Nondual (One Taste/Yoga of One Taste, Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind) with a already much reduced separate self. Stage 3 can have full Nonduality/Unity, with the separate self much more intact than the pretty empty Not-Self of stage 4 (which has just Individuality or a murky Subject-Object left). It is Ken Wilber Empty Witness, Daniel Brown "Individuality", Jac O'Keeffe "Identity", Greg Goode transparent witness vs. opaque witness, Nisargadattas and Stephen Wolinskis Brahman vs. Parabrahman). One can find this stage in every system: Infinite Nonduality/Unity with the remnants of a separate self, some kind of identity or indviduality/separateness. And the last stage in his system, stage 5, Enlightenment: True No Self and No Centre - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (5/5) And then perceiving this boundless infinite field of mere appearance of your Awareness Bubble/reality/infinity, and then dissolving the last arising remnants of any remaining subject arisings perceiving this nondual infinity. These can be very subtle, "no-self"-arisings perceiving infinity, but still some subjectivity/individuality sensation/arisings remaining. But these arisings of any form of subject/individuality can still be seen as objects hovering in the infinite field/Suchness that you are. Don't worry, your True Self will still be there afterwards if these separate-self remnants dissolve. Then one can understand why it is so often said there is nothing beyond this stage. Because it is you, it is Existence itself, see the Ralston Video. To learn these last tricks of the separate self, you need enough time in these states, and the right techniques, (for a suggestion see below, no artifical activity), and then the One Hand Claps. How to do that? I like the Nonmeditation-Yoga in Daniels Browns "Pointing out the Great Way". Learn to automize the meditation (on the pillow and in daily life) of cutting off these separate self arisings, so that no more of what he calls "artifical activity" is necessary, because any effort at that stage done by a doer/separate self arising prevents the realization. It has to become fully automized. Definition of concepts Awakening, Enlightenment and No-Self: I believe we got a lot of different meanings of what we mean by No-Self, and Awakening and Enlightenment. Enlightenment: If Enlightenment is knowing what you are and what existence is, being able to stay in that knowledge in everday life: That has an endpoint: You know what you are and what existence is. And that brings permanent happiness and bliss. Of course you can suffer when you have bodily pain, but psychological suffering is gone. Resting in your True Nature generates bliss by itself. And that is the same as True No-Self, which is the same as True Self, because it is Reality and the core or Buddha-Nature of every being. But here, words loose their meaning, because reality has no opposite. No-Self: The real No-Self is not just giving up the Personality/Ego and going to the Witness (opaque or transparent, which can even be Nondual Kosmic Consciousness/Nature Mysticism style) with something still watching. That something can be mostly empty, just a transparent witness, but it still has the last duality of some kind of individuality. Problem is: This is something one only fully understands when these remnant-arisings of individuality are gone. If there is no separate self having individuality, the universe is watching itself, appearances watching themselves, thoughts are arising in immense vastness as objects, floating through you like the sound of a bird, and the feeling of being something separate is also seen as object in immense vastness. See Roger Thisdell stage 5. Awakening: If one defines Awakening as knowing all the manifestation mechanisms in this or any other dimension, then one perspective/being can be more awake than another. But: Infinity means there are endless dimensions. And a few thoughts on Genetics and Meditation: I believe that using the right meditation techniques at the right stage are essential, more so than genetics. Good techniques change along the path, check for example Pointing Out the Great Way by Daniel Brown. Classic Self-Help-Mindset: I would never let my success and drive be limited by such a limiting belief genetics <-> meditation. Do the the best with the Karma you have. Give it a try! The biggest heros are those who go furthest with the worst genetics/Karma. How do you know if you are limited, if you dont't fully try? Maybe you are not? And of course use Psychedelics on top, why not? If anybody is annoyed by this attempt to Sell water by the River: Please review the perspectives, do your own experiments, and review the outcome. My suggestion would be in judging if any insight is valueable, worthwhile, and higher: Does it bring the understanding of what you are and what reality is, beyond any doubt? Does it bring permanent satisfaction and bliss? And don't worry: Its already what you are, covered by lots of mistaken identities, and it is the only thing you can not loose. The only stuff you can loose are arising appearances, confusions/ignorance of what you think you are. By the way, does anybody read that until the end here?

Yes. What helped me here, since its always a question of definition (for example of the Supreme Witness): You are that which is aware. And the Totality of Reality itself, since it can only show up in that which is aware. But the Totality of Reality is often only seen as that which appears (The appearance side). And that can totally disappear (Deep Sleep), and the real you is still there, unaware of itself, but with a latent capacity for sentience if something appears again (the emptiness or consciousness/aware side). So the question is: How "empty" is the Supreme Witness. When it is so empty that no arisings/feeling (very subtle I-feelings/I-thoughts) arise and appear in the Totality (call it Reality, Infinite Consciousness, God, Dharmakaya, whatever you want), or you clearly see them all as objects/arisings/movements within you, then what you realize yourself to be very obviously is the Totality/Reality/Infinite Consciousness,... . The stage before that is the Supreme Witness, or Empty Witness: Ken Wilber calls that the Empty Witness: Personality, and especially time and space are already transcended, "you" feel the infinite reality as mere appearance, timeless. And always here. But there are still some clusters of sensations arising IN YOU that feel like individuality, or that you are not the unbounded whole, but a feeling of watching it appears in you. You are not all of it, the sensation of "other" still arise a lot in daily life, you dont feel that you what looks from all eyes is the same consciousness that gets clouded by feelings/thoughts of I/me, exactly like how it used to get clouded in you. The realization is neither stable, nor complete. And then at some point you realize that (learn to spot) these arisings/feelings/building blocks of the Supreme Witness or Empty Witness are still left and arising/moving in you. You learn to spot them in a sort of High-Speed-Analysis, recognize them as arisings/objects appearing within you, and you can stop them immediately (subject->object), or just watch them. Then they drop, the Empty Witness drops, and the real you stays. But that is described by some as impersonal, a formulation that I am not totally happy with. Yes, its impersonal, its not the you you thought you were, but its the real you. And that real you "has" or "contains" the personal you moving in it. Then that boosts the nondual state, makes the whole world appear just as mere appearance, an imagined illusion, infinite, groundless, a mirage happening within you (that also starts before, but gets boosted a lot the more the Empty Witness drops). Pretty much a state that Psychedelics cause, but sobre. And with it comes happiness and bliss independend of what happens at that moment, which is the most beautiful aspect of it. If you dont have nonduality and nonseparation and are not aware of the Ground of Being in normal life (while not meditating or tripping), these very subtle arisings/I-feelings/I-thoughts still arise in you and are not spotted with high enough speed to see them for what they are: Sensations of separation arising within the real you. In my experience, you can not force real Nonduality/mere appearance of the totality/world, its an energetic state that gets influenced "indirectly" over how fast you spot these I-thoughts/I-feelings. Here I am fully in line when Leo says you need the right state (of enought nonduality, illusion-like mere appearance of the world, directly feeling it all as mere empty consciousness appearance mirage-arising). When you spot these subtle arisings (building blocks of the separate self and even Empty Witness) fast enough, they arise in you. But you can't force it with willpower, that would be what Daniel Brown in Pointing out the Great Way calls "artifical activity" during the stage of Nonmeditation Yoga (last stage of the 4 Mahamudra stages). It becomes automatic once you understand it at that stage. Its one of the Illusion-Mechanism of Maya that you can't force your way through it with willpower, but you can do it indirectly with understanding how to rest in your true nature. The energetic state of nonduality follows. Its some kind of positive feedback loop, sloping "upwards" if done correctly. I agree with Leo that Nonduality (which ripens) is in its early stages not realization of Ultimate Reality. Daniel Brown for example also. But realization of Ultimate Reality has to be nondual, since its a unity and infinite. And this development can pretty easily stagnate (especially before nonduality even begins to start), and stop if you do something incorrect, or understand something incorrect. Which pretty much happens with 99% of Buddhists. So the separate you disappears, but the real you as Awareness AND the Reality/World stays. So the Illusion-You disappears, but the real you is of course, as always, there. It can not "not be there". That is the Unborn, Reality itself. The real you. And in that area/stage definitions of different authors and traditions get very slippery, since these "feelings" of the Supreme Witness (as you intuit) are very very subtle, and its very easy to identify with them and not notice it. Over the years, I ended up with a metaphor for myself: Zen is like axe to cut a tree. Very robust, works if you do it long enough hard enough pretty foolproof, doesnt need a lot complex theory/stages, but normally takes a long time and is not so pleasant (and in practice for most doesnt deliver the final results, because it takes extreme willpower). More sophisticated versions of Buddhism, with a more detailed map, like Mahamudra/Dzogchen (see for example Brown, Pointing out the Great Way), are like a Forest Harvester: If used correctly very fast, quite pleasant (for the user, probably not for the forest) and comfortable along the path, but quite hard to understand and learn, since language is so slippery in these areas. Like if you want to use a Forest Harvester, and if you dont get explained how it works (like put gas in it, how to drive it, its controls), delivers no result at all. Zen = robust, sit long enough with a Koan and you get it, not much to misunderstand, but neither very fast nor pleasant Mahamudra/Dzogchen = very sophisticated with techniques and details and pointing out descriptions for every stage, but if used incorrectly (like not putting as into forest harvester) no result at all even if you do it a long time. Some Material for that stage I found useful: 1) Massaro, Spiritual Conversations with a Skeptic: "Imagine a formless, space-like void that's indestructible, sentient, awake, alive and aware, but has no form. You could almost say it has no self awareness. It just is. Russell: So wait... A void? A vacuum? Nothing? Bentinho: Yes. Just imagine it. Russell: OK, go ahead. Bentinho: The point of the analogy is that there is no object. Imagine infinite space with no stars or planets. Suddenly, you introduce a toy; let's say a water pistol. Or it could be a body even. But let's say... Russell: An object. Bentinho: Yeah, an object. A water pistol. Russell: With water in it. Bentinho: Maybe with Coca-Cola in it. Russell: With Coca-Cola in it. OK. Bentinho: Ah! Now there is something. Something is created. First there is this space, which is like the pure subject with no reference points. It's like space, but it's not actually space. Russell: Wait... where am I in relation to this infinite space? Bentinho: You are it. Russell: I am it? Bentinho: Yes. Russell: OK. But there is nothing in it at first. Bentinho: Correct. There is nothing in it at all; there is just Infinity. Russell: But I am in it. Bentinho: You are it. " 2) How other perspectives/beings work: A Human is aware of only his perspective (normally). But Infinite Consciousness can forget in time (what did you do exactly one year ago), or to be more precice NOT imagine that memory, and it can forget in space (metaphor of Francis Lucille). To get an idea watch the cover of this book of Marc Leavitt. Notice the hyperbolic geometry of the awareness fields shown. Reality is made of perspectives (Ken Wilber, Concept of Indras Net). Reality is a giant mind (Leo, and more or less all traditions). https://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Behind-Scenes-Marc-Leavitt/dp/1495398218 3) How to Approach Phenomenal Consciousness, Jac O'keeffe. She calls Ultimate Reality Totality Primary Consciousness "the fundamental primary phenomenal consciousness (her name for Ultimate Reality, Infinite Consciousness, the real you), it has a capacity. It doesn't even know itself here. However, it has a capacity to show up with a sense of emptiness (a subtle arising feeling/perception happening in you). To show up as one. To show up as a one who can reflect on itself and recognize that it is, and we have the concept of existence. And it can go from that sense of vast spaciousness and that unified field into time, which appears as a dot. " "We're left with consciousness (-> Primary Consciousness) that cannot know itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually can't know itself. However, it is known. You can drop back there and it is known, but you can't bring yourself there or your capacities to know it. It's almost like it's so fundamental that it can't turn around and see itself. It doesn't see itself. That's too much movement (arisings, objects, subtle I-feelings/I-thoughts, not fully empty/infinite). That's movement such as space, time and identification and me, myself, I, and the building of my movie that happens" Here she describes how Primary Consciousness is so empty that it cant turn around to see itself. Because that turning around would already be a movement, a arising, a subtle object within Primary consciousness/Real you. 4) Stephen Wolinsky, or how Empty is your Empty Witness or Supreme Witness: from Wolinsky, Nothing Comes From Nothing " Knowing or being aware of or consciousness of who you are is “one step” away from being who you are. This is why the Buddha said, “You might not necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment. Why? Because there is no aware-er or awareness or knower or knowingness, to be aware of or know or know about or be conscious of the Absolute. And why Lakshamann Joo said, “Whenever you perceive something, you perceive it from one level lower.” (remark: You can never see the Absolute Reality/Consciousness, cause looking or searching for it is a movement of attention WITHIN IT. But you can understand it, be it, intuit it, from one level lower. The Supreme Witness is one of the last movements IN YOU/Reality looking for absolute consciousness, inducing an experience of it, which of course is not it because it is you). Paradoxically As the Absolute there is no Absolute If the “I” or “you” “has an “experience” and believes it IS consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or that it IS an “imagined” infinity, then the “I” or “you” mistakenly assumes and projects that experience upon the Absolute. Once that occurs the “I” or “you” then completely believes and ergo experiences that the Absolute also has or IS the experience of consciousness has or IS the experience of awareness has or IS the experience of infinite potential has or IS the experience of presence has or IS the experience of an “imagined” infinite. Consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite are the most subtle of the most subtle states and veils which give the illusion of awareness, the illusion of consciousness the illusion of presence and the illusion of both beingness and being conscious. This “experiential belief” of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity, is an anthropomorphically projected experience of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity. Thus giving the illusionary experience of awareness, the illusionary experience of consciousness the illusionary experience of presence and the illusionary experience of both beingness and being conscious. Which are then Superimposed on the Absolute Nothingness. Simply stated, the experience of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity is an experience. This experience gives the illusion of a beingness, isness or existence to these temporary subtle veils and experiences which are made of nothing. The Absolute is without the Absolute Nothingness " 5) Prior to Nonduality Youtube-Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g Mechanisms of Creation/Imagination/Manifestation: Its important and nice to find out HOW you imagine this world with all of its infinite mechanism. And the first and fundamental mechanisms on how imagination/manifestation (in any universe/dimension) can occur can be understood (for example how the fundamental archetypes of space and time (giving "objects" or appearances that change in time), and the first "movements" (even if they are formless) of appearances in consciousness are spawned out from the Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That is for example described by Ken Wilber as the manifestation of the first Archetypes at the causal stage (he calls it low causal, while high causal being the empty ultimate Godhead). But since Reality/Spirit/God is able to manifest/imagine infinite Worlds, with totally different mechanism than our universe for example, by definition one will never be able to understand all of their mechanisms, since you dont have access to all Realities (and you couldnt while being human). And you can never explore all of them, by definition of what Infinity means. That is what God/Reality itself is exploring. Leo mentioned that in "Outrageous Experiments In Consciousness - 30 Awakenings In 30 Days.", there are infinite dimensions of awakening. Which is, as mentioned, quite shocking. But for sure its nice and important to grasp the fundamental mechanism of imagination/manifestation, which apply to all universes/dimensions (since all are appearances), and understanding that in your deepest being you are that one Reality. I believe these fundamentals are important to understand and realize and experience. Else "you" are stuck with believing experiencing Nonduality or Emptiness is it, while that is only the start to realize Infinity. And you can of course realize the Groud of Being, your true nature. But one can never explore all mechanism of manifestation, since a human in its limited time can never explore all realms of manifestation (and there are for examples according to Jac O'Keffee and Stephen Wolinsky some truly alien realms that are not build with the building blocks of this Universe. Yet they are also only appearances). So at some level one either says "Its details, and one can never explore all mechanism of manifestation, because even for God/Absolute Reality there are Infinite Realms of Appearances/Worls/Universes to explore", or it is a grasping for seeing as much as possible. Which is a high level recipe for nevery finding the constant peace/happiness independend of outer circumstances, the hallmark of the enlightened ones, and also nevery fully resting it. Maya is awe-inspiring, and her Illusion-Mechanisms (which are necessary for this Lila) go to the highest level also. But understanding the fundamental mechanism of how manifestation/imagination occurs, how you fool yourself (Maya), what ultimate Reality/God/Spirit is, what other is, how Maya works, what one really is and how one imagines otherwise, that is all essential. And of course humanity will go exploring all of that (manifestation/imagination mechanisms, mechanisms of Maya, "going Psychonaut" and exploring it, exploring Ken Wilbers subtle and low causal realms and mapping them. He even said in the next 1000 years probably many new substages will show up and getting formed & described during exploration). This understanding will grow. Buddhism has evolved in the past, there is not even one Buddhism, there are many different streams, some more developed/sophisticated/efficient than others. I don't think Buddhism will disappear, so it will change and evolve by definition. Buddhism happens in Infinity, not the other way round. And to conclude: I hope this is interesting and helpful for some of you. It took me a long time to understand why there are so many, often contradicting statements in the spiritual traditions/teachers/psychonautic explorers, and how Reality is structured (and the differing perspectives & statements it supports and brings forth on various stages/states) to enable and support all of these differing perspectives, experiences and viewpoints. For sure, this picture isn't complete, but at least for me tells a story that for me is sufficient to continue my practice in peace and enjoy what it brings into my life, be able to sort all these often conflicting messages in a large and hopefully integral perspective, and stay interested in how Reality is structured that all of that can appear in it (the psychonaut approach). And of course its nearly impossible to communicate all of that in language. In case anybody has read all of the above until here: A metaphor that, if I remember correctly, also Ken Wilber once used: Zen would deliver the much more precise summary, which is why I also like Zen a lot: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! Matsuo Basho (1644-1694)