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Would you really be discussing anything, or trying to make a point, or having an opinion, or arguing, or debating or.....

I put it like that from their POV. That is how they see it. But also, I do have a worldview. Everyone has some worldview, even if you are Awakened.

Big furry friend, somehow an apex predator but also one of the cutest animals , right behind seals , lol. What would be the difference between logic being discovered or being perfectly constructed? When I awakened to timelessness I became conscious that the absolute is both absolute stillness but also contains every possible form , which would mean that form and formlessness are equally absolute . Logic / math how these eternal forms relate to one another .

I'm not anti siddhi but I'm anti comparing yourself to genetic freaks who do superhuman things. It is possible to be fully awakened and not have any special powers , in fact this is very likely the norm.

@Inliytened1 @ExploringReality You, gentleman - I would cook lamb shanks, mash & beans. A good meal and hearty existential chats 🙏❤️ I know I do enjoy a mental clashing of the minds, but behind that I genuinely adore intellectual conversation and there is always MUCH respect. I also know exactly when to switch from savage mind jousting to warm compassion. I don't like walking away with a bad feeling. I suppose that's the women bit 🥹 I have never met one woman into serious spirituality. A few men for sure. And I really to try with those around me. I give them little truth biscuits to lure them in, but it is rare someone really begins to ask the big questions with the lead in. I suppose you would find truth seeking women in the last place you would expect. Because who would predict an awakened, female construction manager? Sounds busted 😏

I just want you to be happy. I have found that when you are so awakened things become too mundane for you and it is difficult to survive that way. Just be happy

We agree although I would state that the first thing to dissolve for me was the self. And I understand where you are coming from as well. See the Jim Newman video posted here. Hes awakened but the problem with it is others can take this on as a belief without directly dying. As he did. Same goes for you by the way. Listen to it.. Anyway - the God dreaming is important from a metaphysical and ontological standpoint. The understanding of reality is fundamental. So, while you claim enlightenment you do nothing to explain or set up a metaphysical framework from which to work. Enlightenment does not come without an understanding of reality as a whole. And here science must come into play. The typical neo-advatain however completely dismisses science. Did Einstein? Should you? I would beckon that you should not.

I am not arguing with you brother. Actually I am not awakened, but I or entire story is gone. Therefore, never born. Entire enlightenment shit is just completely disseappearing, and body moves it's own. That's all. That's what living as enlightened being is. What You are before birth, that's what You are now and will be after death of the body. Never move, began, always.

Indeed. I have no argument with you brother. You are one of the few awakened left here to dwell in i don't know what

I don't know about that. Hopefully it's real for you. In any case, it's very easy to deceive oneself in all kinds of ways. We seem to do that all the time. Often, thinking oneself enlightened or awakened most likely comes from a conceptual world - we just have a hard time discerning what is thought to be true from what is actually true. Something other than oneself - the truth - would have to be the arbiter of that assessment. This trips us off in part because we confuse a claim about what's believed to be true with whatever is actually the case. As for the "natural" part, not sure what to say. A psychedelic experience or a particular state may not be awakening, so that's that - if that's what you were implying by "artificial."

Reflections; it can go. There is massive wisdom impardoned on you after awakening. So its really if you want to take it. I can tell you this. You are so awakened that if you do dumb shit you are directly aware that you are fucking up. If you still choose to do it that's on you.

Well said and I absolutely agree. Even the identity of “one who has awakened” must eventually fall away. Otherwise, spirituality becomes just another costume the mind wears to avoid disappearing.

I take a stress test everyday its permanently relaxed. It hasn't moved past this state since I awakened. Its like the fear in my brain just stopped and isn't turning back on.@Sugarcoat I feel like I'm brain dead. I have had like 6 others use it cause I thought It was broken and every person that has used it is high stress.

When gurus say that I am already awakened what does that mean? I am clearly not

@MuadDib You can be Awakened and still working for Satan.

The only other awakened beings i saw was Ralston and Marcus Aurelius. Ralston's book of not knowing was stellar but I didnt even finish it because I awakened from Leo's stuff alone. The other books I read from his list were Gandhi and Marcus Aurelius- also enlightened. There is nothing from Rupert Spira or Spinoza on the book list either. These teachers will only take you so far but they cannot take you as far as full awakening/solipsism as God

The halo assumes that the person is awakened or enlightened.

I'm coming to the realization that altruism was likely a false life purpose for me. I didn't always have this leaning. For me there is something that resonated from Buddhist traditions in that altruism is a form of self punishment in that it is self sacrifice for a perceived greater cause. In my case the sacrifice felt worth it because my identity was already destroyed, so whatever identity I sacrifice is a miserable one anyway. However, this is a set up for self destruction regardless of any noble acts I ever do. I'm now trying to figure out a purpose that is independent of altruism. I'm trying to figure out how to define my self worth in some way other than my utility to other human beings. No matter how many children I save from kidnappers or victims of predatory loaning I help it doesn't feel like it's enough to fill my inner void. These acts are designed to be proof of my inherent goodness and worth which I am still not convinced of despite the acts. Furthermore, the reason I am drawn to changing systems and understanding social structures is because I am looking for ways to help the maximum number of people. This is why I am drawn to politics and "the greatest good for the greatest number." However, in my case I was happy with practicing to become a professional chess player. The reason I didn't do that is because of a series of obstacles I seemed unable to overcome. Therefore, I needed to create an alternative life purpose beyond chess. In order to compensate my misery and justify my continued existence despite the years of my life lost pursuing a false hope of joy and fulfillment, I increasingly emphasized my utility to others. I can't make a living off of chess because it is not valued by others in the same way I loved it. The outcome is that following my passion was never really an option, but trying to change broken systems is even more unrealistic than becoming a grandmaster in chess. If replacing things that made me happy with altruism doesn't work, then I'm in new territory. I genuinely don't know what other type of purpose to pursue. If I can't get fulfillment from career, impact, passion, and things of that nature, then what other purpose should I have? I could try relationships, but it requires building a new support system outside of my family. Maybe fulfilling relationships are possible, but I would need to move out to the right location with the right support systems. Furthermore, the only other logical choice for meaning and fulfillment might be spirituality. The problem is that Truth and God transcend the self and meaning altogether. This would probably be spiritual bypassing if I tried committing my life to these things. Part of me doubts that I would be good enough to be a sage given my kind of track record and what goes on in my head and what I have been through. Of course I know I keep saying "I" even though I don't exist and it happens because I have a hard time describing things without contextualizing them within the framework of the ego self. Without "I" I don't know how to think, so no need to remind me that I haven't awakened. If spirituality really were a path to some kind of acceptable existence, then meditation and psychedelics seem like they might be an answer, although the outcome may not be practical change depending on how it is executed. I unfortunately don't see any other paths to meaning and purpose. If altruism isn't the answer, then I need to rethink this whole situation in terms of what my goal should be. I have no idea what other sources of meaning I could be using.

A group of people claim that a certain person is "awakened" or "enlightened." You go visit him/her. What do you see?

Here’s the essay I put together after clarifying what I was trying to articulate here. I’ve added the audio recording for convenience. It’s just over 20 minutes long After Awakening: Multiple Ego Dissolutions, Burnout, and the Limits of Insight Several years ago, I underwent a genuine non-dual awakening through sustained contemplation and meditation, later contrasted with psychedelic experience. Identity collapsed, reality became dreamlike, and the familiar insights followed. This is not a story about awakening itself. It is about what happened after — across multiple phases of deconstruction — and why those phases ultimately led not to liberation, but to exhaustion. This process did not involve a single dissolution of ego, but three distinct dissolutions, each operating at a different level of the system: intellect, psyche, and nervous system. First Dissolution: Intellectual Deconstruction and Awakening The first ego dissolution occurred through intellectual deconstruction. Years of philosophical inquiry, epistemological rigor, and contemplation dismantled identification with self, body, and thought. This culminated in a non-dual awakening: the recognition of awareness as primary, reality as constructed, and identity as illusory. This stage was driven by intellect — not belief — and required discipline, focus, and cognitive capacity. At this stage, the ego was not destroyed; it was used. It functioned as the engine of inquiry. Without it, sustained deconstruction would not have been possible. Awakening arose through egoic effort, not in spite of it. However, this phase privileged understanding over embodiment. Insight was clear, but its impact on lived experience was limited. Second Dissolution: Psychological Deconstruction and Shadow Work The second ego dissolution occurred through psychological insight. Attention shifted from metaphysical truth to the mechanisms of the psyche: subconscious conditioning, emotional triggers, attachment patterns, cognitive bias, trauma responses, and survival strategies. This involved learning how belief forms, how emotion drives behavior, and how unconscious loops perpetuate suffering. Through this process, old narratives dissolved. The reasons I believed I was the way I was repeatedly changed as deeper layers were uncovered, until the very idea of a single causal explanation collapsed. Responsibility was taken seriously — perhaps too seriously. Patterns were interrupted. Behavior changed. Relationships temporarily improved. It was during this phase that autism was first suggested. That possibility was dismissed — not out of denial, but out of a belief that behavior could be changed through awareness, effort, and self-regulation. Labeling it as autism felt like excusing or solidifying something that could otherwise be transformed. For a time, this worked. An adaptive personality formed. Functionality increased. Masking was successful. But this came at a cost. Third Dissolution: Midlife Collapse and Autism Masking Burnout The third ego dissolution was not chosen. It occurred in midlife through burnout. The ego that had formed to sustain meaning, purpose, and trajectory — to regulate emotion, maintain relationships, and function within cultural expectations — ran out of energy. It could no longer justify itself. Motivation collapsed. Executive function declined. Emotional regulation failed under cumulative load. What was revealed underneath was not emptiness, but a nervous system shaped by autism and neurodivergence, one that had been masked for decades through intellect, adaptation, and effort. When the mask fell away, what remained was a system not designed to survive — let alone thrive — in its cultural environment. This was not spiritual failure. It was biological and neurological reality asserting itself after prolonged compensation. At this stage, meaning could no longer be generated intentionally. Purpose could not be chosen. Engagement was not a matter of attitude or belief — the capacity itself to do so, was gone. What had once been interpreted as ego dissolution now revealed itself as ego exhaustion. Consequences: Overwhelm, Isolation, and Misinterpretation With the loss of masking and regulatory capacity came heightened sensitivity: to emotion, complexity, relational dynamics, and informational load. Awareness now spanned multiple levels simultaneously — personal, relational, societal, political, metaphysical — without the filtering mechanisms that once made this manageable. The result was overwhelm: emotional stacking, executive paralysis, withdrawal, and periods of shutdown. Not depression in the conventional sense, and not nihilism as a belief, but a sensitive nervous system exceeding its limits. At the same time, the need for co-regulation, connection, and unconditional support became explicit. Not conceptually — biologically. Childlike needs surfaced: safety, presence, touch, attunement. Yet the surrounding environment lacked the capacity to meet a human being in such an open and vulnerable state. Most people were themselves overwhelmed, defended, or absorbed in self-development frameworks that bypass relational responsibility so there was no one there. Spiritual communities, in particular, often responded with abstraction: non-dual explanations, absolute responsibility, or minimization of lived experience. Pain was dismissed as illusion. Burnout was reframed as resistance. This only deepened isolation. Relational Catalyst: Heart Opening and the Cost of Vulnerability There was, however, a specific relational catalyst that accelerated and clarified this entire phase: falling in love. During this period, I fell deeply in love with someone — Sarah — and that experience marked a decisive shift. It was not romantic idealisation or projection in the conventional sense, but a genuine heart-opening that dissolved long-standing emotional defenses. For the first time, vulnerability was no longer optional or suppressed by intellect. The nervous system opened into felt connection, care, tenderness, and longing. This heart opening had immediate effects beyond the personal. It deepened the emotional bonds within my spiritual circle. Love became more explicit, more embodied, more present between us. There was warmth, affection, shared presence, and a sense — briefly — that something genuinely human and reparative was forming. People felt safer. More seen. Less required to perform or be anything in particular. It also filled me with self love when I directed it at myself causing an expansion of self confidence and unconditionality. But this same opening also revealed something painful and unavoidable: love without reciprocity is destabilising. As sensitivity increased, so did the capacity to feel absence, inconsistency, and lack of follow-through. When people did not show up, did not respond, or could not meet vulnerability with responsibility, the pain was no longer abstract or philosophical — it was visceral, relentless and continued for over two years and continues even now. What had once been buffered by detachment or insight now landed directly in the body in waves of pain from the top of the neck and shoulder, down across the chest to the sternum. Any time I got overwhelmed I found myself curling in a hall, clutching my head and screaming because I could not stop the sensation once it started. No amount of CBT or regulation techniques were working. No one was around to catch me when I fell, no one knew how or how to recognise it, my authenticity that deepened and intensified the way I love and express was disturbing and rejected by those closest to me. This revealed a critical asymmetry. Love had opened the system, but the relational environment did not have the capacity to co-regulate at that depth. Some were still processing trauma. Others were absorbed in non-dual excitement or personal development. Many valued connection in principle, but lacked the embodied availability to sustain it in practice. The result was increased sensitivity paired with decreased support — a dangerous combination. The very openness that made connection possible also made neglect, dismissal, or inconsistency far more wounding. What looked from the outside like emotional fragility was, in reality, a nervous system operating without armor in an environment not structured to protect it. This was not a failure of love. It was a revelation of how rare genuine co-responsibility in relationship actually is — and how costly it can be to remain open without it. The heart opening did not cause the burnout. It exposed the conditions that made burnout inevitable. It showed, unmistakably, that insight without relational infrastructure cannot sustain vulnerability — and that love, once awakened, cannot simply be closed again without cost. The Core Realisation Non-duality may describe an underlying structure of reality, but human life is relational. Awakening does not negate the need for nervous-system regulation, belonging, and embodied connection. Applying absolute perspectives at the relative level collapses relationship and places unbearable responsibility on the individual. What became clear to me at this point was the ontological error being made around the concept of “other.” In absolute terms, other collapses into unity — but at the level of lived human experience, other does not disappear. It remains operative, causal, and relational. I had attempted — both personally and experimentally — to apply absolute responsibility at the relative human level. Conceptually, it sounds coherent: if everything is one, then I am responsible for my experience. But embodied reality revealed the flaw. When “other” is erased at the human level, responsibility becomes asymmetric. The individual absorbs not only their own regulation and integration, but also the emotional impact, projections, avoidance, and limitations of everyone around them. This leads to exhaustion, not liberation. Human beings are not solipsistic processing units. Our nervous systems are co-regulatory by design. Meaning, safety, and orientation emerge between beings, not in isolation. To deny the causal role of “other” is not awakening — it is a form of dissociation that masquerades as insight. The paradox is this: At the level of source, unity is real. At the level of life, relationship is real. And refusing to honor both simultaneously fractures the human capacity to live. In my case, this refusal led to a progressive carrying of responsibility that was never meant to be borne alone — explaining, adapting, regulating, forgiving, understanding — until the system finally collapsed. Not because insight was false, but because it was misapplied beyond the level it was meant to govern. True integration, I now see, does not eliminate “other.” It requires learning how to be with other without erasure — without domination, bypassing, or self-sacrifice disguised as transcendence. One cannot know itself or define itself unless there is something against which a distinction is made. Self does not exist without other. This is not a flaw in reality — it is part of the whole. Awareness knows itself by creating contrast within itself. A fold. A differentiation. The appearance of “other.” This distinction is not separate from awareness, nor does it ever truly leave it. It is intrinsic, inseparable, and necessary. The illusion of other is still an expression of the one, not a deviation from it. In absolute terms, awareness is infinite, whole, and complete — needing nothing. But once projected into relativity, it cannot sustain itself through fragmentation alone. A living system cannot survive by isolating, dismissing, or denying its own parts. The one awareness unfolds into many perspectives in order to experience itself. These perspectives — these “others” — are not disposable scaffolding to be discarded after awakening. They are the means by which awareness continues to know itself in motion, in relationship, in life. When too many folds are isolated, dismissed, or treated as unreal, the system loses coherence. Unity without relationship collapses into sterility. The dream stagnates — not because it is false, but because its own internal harmony has been broken. True integration, then, is not the erasure of other, but the restoration of relationship between all parts of the whole — without hierarchy, bypassing, or denial. The entire point of the dream was awareness projecting itself into embodiment — not as an error, but as an experiment in sustained existence through relationship. Consciousness unfolds into form in order to experience itself as life, and that life can only be sustained through harmonious expansion, not fragmentation. A multiparty system emerges by lowering entropy, not increasing it — through cooperation, inclusion, and mutual regulation rather than isolation or dominance. Each part stabilises the whole by allowing other parts to exist as they are. This is not metaphorical love, but ontological love: the condition that permits complexity to persist without collapse. When awareness attempts to deny, dismiss, or overwrite its own projections — treating embodiment, relationship, or difference as illusory or expendable — entropy rises. The system destabilises. The dream does not end through awakening, but through loss of coherence. To allow everything to be — without hierarchy, bypassing, or erasure — is love. Not sentimentally, but structurally. It is the only condition under which the dream can continue to unfold. Love is why it is at all. What has unfolded here is not regression, and not a refusal to integrate. It is the recognition that integration requires infrastructure — biological, relational, and cultural — and that insight alone cannot provide it. At this stage, there is little interest in further deconstruction, peak states, or metaphysical explanation. What remains is a need for slowness, safety, and real human presence. Not to transcend life, but to make it livable again. If there are moments of withdrawal, silence, or apparent disengagement, they are not expressions of apathy or despair. They are signs of a system protecting itself after prolonged overextension. Awakening revealed what is true. Burnout revealed what is necessary. Integration now depends not on insight, but on care and embodiment. reality is reasserting itself after the mind has exhausted its capacity to mediate it. Trying to navigate and cater for infinity when we were never designed to navigate that level of complexity. When the conceptual scaffolding collapses and there’s no energy left to rebuild it, the lived world stops being buffered and reduced into nice navigable packages and choices. Sensation, absence, time, otherness — they arrive raw. No commentary. No meaning creation. No protection. That’s why it feels unsettling rather than peaceful. The whole thing is there in its totality screaming in your face. The missing piece wasn’t intelligence, rigor, or honesty. It was contact. Not conceptual contact, not metaphysical contact — human contact. Nervous systems, bodies, presence, co-regulation. Love. The thing the mind can describe endlessly but cannot substitute for. Once the mind burns out, reality doesn’t argue — it just is, and it is violently silence.

This where I feel there are levels to awakening and enlightenment. I feel you can awakening mentally, emotionally, physically, but who are those who have mastered and awakened and stabilized all three? Maybe that's what is the spiritual perfection Jesus talked about. This is what I am starting to realize after over a decade on this path. Awakening the mind without awakening the heart is no awakening at all. Most people will experience one kind of awakening and settle there, because they never experienced anything beyond that, but i feel that's the trap itself, the moment we think we figured it out, the moment there's more to uncover.

Not at all. Scientific knowledge does not help with Awakening AT ALL. It actually hurts. Of course. You think Jesus was a math nerd? Haha Most Awakened people are not scientific. The reason I talk about science is not because knowing science is needed for knowing God, it is to highlight the epistemic mistakes of science, to help scientists think better, and to free your mind from the shackles of science.

When you said "I do not have my shit together, I struggle with career, I don't quite master my emotions, I struggle with finances, I am depressive and sometimes suicidal ect.." That's most people on this forum, so your not alone, including Leo, don't put him on such a high pedistool because you only reinforcing an illusion. People who truly "have their shit together" are consistent, in all areas, both in presentations and in comments. The average forum user here is quite similar to how you described your "challenges" in life. Some more refined than others yes, but most are still learning to walk on their own two feet, as you can see from the comments, some even act like screaming babies wanting mama to give them their nipple Its absolutely ok to be interested in these topics, follow what feels right and true to you each and every moment. Anyone can Awaken at any given moment. I think awakening is misunderstood, rather following your "true north" and being your "authentic self" is paramount. Then that is an awakened life, because you are being your individual self and not copying one another.

Stings? Why? Obviously if it advances mankind's Awakening it also advances your Awakening. These are not mutually exclusive. Plus, what good is it for you to Awaken but then live amongst a bunch of cavemen? Obviously you want to live among others who understand you. So this goal is not just good for mankind at large, it is good for you. Do you want to be Awakened and living among a bunch of materialist Nazis? So obviously we need a larger goal of advancing the entire culture.

I had terrible panic attack my whole life. Probably thousands of them. They never went away until I awakened. Panic attack is higher self awaking up imo. Your ego says oh my God Im dying. Its like a massive burst of gamma waves coming into your brain. Its a good thing. If you are to slingshot yourself to heaven panic attack is like pulling back the slingshot.