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Yesterday I had another profound Neti-Neti practice. 5 min: Basic inquiry, reminding myself from first hand experience that "I" is a collection of different thoughts. 10 min: I noticed two types of thoughts: Classical (like the ones accompanied by inner voice) and Maya inducing thoughts (the thoughts which try to disguise themselves as "outside reality/world" and "inner mind" which are thoughts but NOT "obvious perceptions of reality". 15+ min: My intuition guided me to focus on the nothingness state, it was outrageously clear how "I" disappears together with the elimination of Maya inducing thoughts. For example, when I get rid of thoughts of past and future (the ones with inner voice) my mind immediately focuses on "hey, your body is here in this world" sensations/thoughts, "this stillness is inside your mind". To make Maya even stronger, it focuses on body sensations as to affirm it's own existence in the absence of classical thoughts. However, it was possible to focus on complete nothingness in short bursts (back and forth from Maya to No-Maya). Which made clear the Grand Illusion. A question arose, where are thoughts coming from? Where are they taking place? I realized that everything is thoughts, coming from thoughts and taking place inside thoughts. Fucking mind-blowing. After the practice I just laid on the floor in awe and astonishment of how "clever" the illusion is. Like Leo said, the most perfect illusion of all. Also after the practice, I simply couldn't "grasp" the "obvious" definition of self. I had a scared faced, eyes wide open, simply shocked... PS By "everything" I mean stuff from the relative level, which impose upon the raw manifest of realm (non-dual).

Language is created to simplify life. Can there be toughts without language? It's solely a human invention and we use it to describe reality and ourselves taking it to be the actual reality, in truth it is not. Toughts help navigate life but cannot give an apsolute correct interpretation of what reality is, what I am, what another is. What we call reality are toughts (the mind), this is a very important realization. Beyond the mind lies emptiness, stillness, and nothingness, the true nature of reality. The mind is empty and there is no more interpretation of what reality is, you become it. And this is what the ego is afraid of, emptiness. Because it goes beyond toughts and language. Beyond illusion and delusion, which is basically all we have been taught, basically what all toughts are other than navigating life.

There will come a time when "observing" will end. There will only be Being,Nothingness,and/or, Isness left. Contemplation will be for contemplation's sake. A kind of learning in silence,for learning's sake. No other reason.The Inquiring of a question,letting it go into silence,and then waiting. If you've ever watched someone like Rupert,Osho ,Tolle,Krishnamurti etc.,,this is what's going on. There is a question from someone,and then there is the waiting,the gap of silence,and then they will answer. That answer is coming out of the emptiness and silence of the Absolute. Not "learned" or retained knowledge. What the Absolute gives them, is the answer they give. This is the same when inquiring/contemplating. That silence/emptiness in which to inquire,has to be there,otherwise it's untrue or "colored" knowledge.

For example, let's take the object computer. The term computer is created in the mind, that it has this or that color, that it has this or that shape, that it has something inside it like atoms etc, all of this is created in the mind just like language and concepts are created in the mind. But what actually is it existantially? The actual thing in itself? From our direct experience we can't really know, unless maybe if you snort 5-meo. All there is is a seeing of this ''object'' and you can also touch it and feel that you have touched it, that's pretty much it. The rest is the mind. It's not a computer, you are just seeing something which appear in your experience. You are touching something which appear in your experience. Even saying that it is ''something'' is created in the mind, actually there is just seeing and touching. We can't know or understand using the mind what this something actually IS. Saying that it is this or that is a creation of the mind, no matter if you say it's nothingness or God or infinity or a computer. There is just seeing, and everything just is or at least appears to be in your experience. It can't be what your mind says it is because that's all language and concepts used to navigate life and simplifying it, the mind cannot know existantially what anything truly is and therefore Kant's conclusion that the thing in itself remains forever unknowable.

Place your skeleton body in a comfortable position Prepare to DIE Tell yourself you are dying and that there is nothing more to worry about or care about There is no pain in death, just peace Accept your death as a release of all the anxiety and bad things that may be plaguing you Feel the peace of letting go to death. Feel the lack of peace of letting go in death feel the anxiety release as you let go into death. Feel the anxiety rise again as you die. Watch the cycle of rising and falling. Let it die with you Accept all the thoughts in your head but realise that they are useless to you now that you are dying Feel the tension leave your body as you surrender. Feel it melt into nothingness as you leave it all behind. If tension returns accept it and realise the futility of it as you die and it dies with you Do not resist any thoughts or sensations. Do not resist any resistance to the same. Do not resist resisting resistance. Just let it exist without judgment. Let it die to when it is ready. Everything dies whether you will it or not. Let it happen Your body might feel like it is melting or disappearing. No problem if it does or doesn’t. Let it die either way Whatever arises, let it melt into death when it is reqdy to do so You may or may not feel bliss arising. Either way just let it melt away There is no point There is no destination or path there is no permanent enlightened person, just a a bag of bones on the floor melting away Just keep doing this for however long you want. It doesnt matter. Just let it go. And if you can’t let go, don’t worry, let letting go go too Rinse and repeat forever

@Saumaya Emotional development and human maturity is something you can work on even after enlightenment. Yes. I meant this as higher levels in my original post. And also, I wanted to know it like this, so I can understand what I may have missed Thank you So just to understand, what does spiritual seeking mean? As in... Isn't awakening just a 100% beyond doubt confirmation that nothingness is our natural state? What does spiritual seeking refer to after that? Working towards staying in the easily 99% of the time? And all the while human maturity and emotional development continue along side.?

I'll never ever be green then LOL. And I always be against orange. In fact I was green when I was a child ( until I transcend to nihilism ) I always protected nature, until people started to run on me and my "green childish way of thinking" I always wanted to cure everyone, to be kind to everyone. But society fucked all this, at 13 I probably shifted to Orange for many years. ( you helped me transcend yellow, so thanks you, even if I m still tainted with many orange in myself ) I have a tons of work to do to live from a true yellow perspective. ( if this mean something ) I just buy nothing, if this is possible. I put 2000€ in my computer on 10 years and I m still having the power to destroy a current mac at 1500 buck. so being green is starting to be holy fucking stupid, cause Apple is made by evil himself. Job > Gates ( it's a joke, I do not believe one of them is better ), they both did LSD btw. ( just a note ) They are both "yellow" living in a orange society. It's not because we all need to act orange to be understand that we all are. ( be aware than when I m saying stupid or smart, it's just talk ) I don't mean it. Everyone is fucking stupid and smart. I m yellow af ( this is why everything is a joke to me ) absurdism and nihilism is largely above green. Green is silly, and I m not talking about a orange perspective, as orange is aswell stupid af to me. yes blabla, what if leo you never transcend green and delude yourself being "yellow", you did display what I would call a yellow thinking, but this day you're abusing acting like a green. ( to my sense ) ( And orange aren't nihilist at ALL. they are egocentric, self centered, they are hedonist at their best ) Nihilism isn't red neither. what do I mean by nihilism ofc, I mean someone who can see the world from ALL perspective and give a sense of meaning at their life from nothingness ) like a computer programmateur, without emotion about the code, just watching how it is working. ( I do not need yoga to have faith and value ( sometimes ), I just pick what I want, like a character in a videogame ), it means, accepting life even to the point of thinking that all the yoga thing is just a path to truth. ( not the truth in itself.. just a way ) like suffering and being an outcast is another one. self reflection is all I was doing since a child, for a lifetime, cause life even on drug ( I mean computer / internet until 21 ) then weed. And even baked off, everything still sounded borring to me ( needed to find meaning in myself ) I never was aware that it had a name ( "self reflection" ) of course I have a tons of work to do on myself as I rush everything. I m not sure all green are open minded, many of them act like it to get profit from society. Like Nietzshe told in his writting ( I m reducing ), there is many philosophers who talks, but all their talks is a dream they create because of the disease in their soul and their feeling of insecurity. Human is incredible to creates solid shit meaning from nothing. Deny it all you want, green/orange. I want to help everyone, so for me all the moral is a human thing, it's not how I conceptualize yellow, and If I m not yellow, it's simple, I'm not at all in the spiral. Tell me now that I m orange if you want, I probably is, like fucking everyone we are born into it, look at your own recent post leo, they all sound orange/green, nothing yellow there. ( or I don't get it, or you're starting to be deluded because of all the dmt : with all my respect and I respect you very much leo. maybe not you to me, though. ) you're just all green thinking you transcend something, it's normal lower stage demonize people at higher tier, so people at lower stage can't get me at all. ( can you see it ? ) [joke] if you was a real turquoise, as it's in the spiral, you would just quit the whole forum/youtube. This forum is the proof you can't transcend green/yellow. ( or leave it ) you need it to walk I conceive. Yellow are creator, yellow are artist without bondary of creation. Artist are above green, but artist comes all from green/orange. green and orange are the same pattern thinking, instead of projecting their ideology on themself they project on dream/associated to their feeling with the world. if this is not a delusion, what is it. If starting to be a hippie was a thing. And I m talking in a life of electronic music maker, everyone around me use drug. And believe me whole those green could all be orange if you really watch deeply everyone. I can't even tell the difference between someone orange or green, they are all egocentric in their way. when green start all to want your green ( weed ), you know they are all a bunch of orange fa* in disguise. ( for the joke ) Hippie/green ( most of you are on the forum ) I don't very like the idea of color though, it's a quick ordering, who isn't very accurate, but not accurate. It's like a big map astrology, of course we see meaning in it. It has been made by guy who believed in budhism firstly. what If I create a spiral dynamic with 3 stages : Idiot, no that idiot, very smart. I could put the whole human race in those case aswell. I'm not denying spiral is a good map, but it's fucking absolutely not the territory. It's over reducing thinking to a meaningless affair of categorizing people by what you perceive . difference with orange, is only that : they are hypocrite, orange are not. They are "evil" but they assume it 100% to being egocentric. now you're all triggered, I liked watch this forum, you're all funny. But you have my respect, it's not easy to work on self and delude his mind at this point. We all have work to do. if someone now come and hang my hand and tell me, all of this was a joke and a dream, I would say, ok .. what's next lvl ? I m not sure many of you would do that. I would be sad that I loved my mother though and that she wasn't real. would makes my body and mind very sad, but I already accepted my faith. If god is all and powerful, why fight against his music ? do your own, god makes all of us musician, god doesn't have judgement he likes everything ( even hate and war ). He just like them beating the world. the dream program us to fight that is clearly the case.. survival/transcend call it how you want.. No matter how. Nietzshe call it the "will of power" and this is accurate. You should focus on the fundamental tone you can hear, not on the cover that you see with your eyes and brain. If there is no evil, god created it by giving us the power to create light or darkness, we should stop the assumption that god want the world to be "perfect and stable", there is probably nothing more than the music, and music is a flow a stream, it never ends, why transcend anything ? transcend all the things you want, but turquoise or red, we all end in the void/infinity call it how you want. So why fight ? study music instead of reading. everyone play his role.

A true guru is like a psychadelic in that both reveal they don’t exist. You can continue believing they are enlightened, and you are not, but that won’t hold up to scrutiny. Any twoness is oneness - youness, Nothingness. They’re you. It’s futile because its false, so you have to repeat resistant thoughts to continue to believe this lie. Of course you’re depressed. You’re attempting to reduce what you are to finite. Stressful “path”. Lighten up. You’re in the set up. Try to see the punchline. Life is not serious. Don’t listen to me either. Ask yourself what’s true.

Based from my direct experience,this experience it's like floating on nothingness, the time & space exist within it, as i turn my head around look at the room, the substance underneath the wall ,flooring,ceiling seems dissapeared, and then i walking around and observe, feels like i din't move at all, its just the experience changing and morphing, i look around the object in my room, it comes very clear to me there is no saperation, everything is just one thing and its the same thing.

Yes,there was a me but the me i am reffering it's not only the ego, but the totality of nothingness and everything, hence i perceiving things as not me and the object over there are saperate,more like sensation arising to consciousness. I would like to know more about what do you mean by no experience and experiencer in non dual

I do psychedelic occasionally, but this non dual experience makes no different when i was on sober mind or tripping, as i look on the floor ,intellectually i know there is substance underneath the floor, but based from my direct experience its only surface that floating on nothingness

What has helped me is read chimpanzee politics and our inner ape by frans de weal. Just understand that people are no different than you and you accept all people without trying to trying to convince them or persuade them because they perfect the way and they mission in life. Some people's mission to hurt others, some people's mission to alleviate others pain...etc. This will give you charisma and make you lovable. Avoid talking anything deep with people unless they show interest but reveal as little as possible so that they don't you look like you are insane or stupid (when in reality this applies to them!). Accept and surrender to the cosmic and universal power. The cosmic consciousness that created everything(also known as nothingness or allah or god or Yahweh or everything or supreme or The I am or any name) denied by logical positivist(scientists) has set the destiny for others to behave the way they behave. The cosmic consciousness pick specific people and deliberately block others. That's how its always been. The supreme consciousness speak in Leos tongue to reveal sacred knowledge to you and me and other priviledged self-actualizers while many people don't want it. You have freedom of choice to choose at particular instant and circumstance what to choose and do and how do you behave but you can't choose your circumstances that fall upon you. 1.Accept all people for who they are even if they totally have different values to the point of annoying you 2.Understand you are social animal and part of your health is socializing and if you are uninterested You have two ears and one mouth so that you can listen more and speak less 3.If you truly want to influence those people and help them succeed, then you need to become a prophet of the consciousness. Learn how to be charismatic and leader. People will simply not listen to you if you are in same level as they are or below. Prophet work is very tough, preaching is very tough. What leo is doing is unacceptable for most people except the open minded. Most of my cousins and family members hate leo when I sent his videos in our family group, they started schooling me on how he is wrong and evil and I should stay away from him because he will wash my brain. rest is yours to find out,

Why is it so impossible to formulate what consciousness is with help of the (analytical) mind. I end up with 'nothingness' as the best description of what consciousness is. Consciousness doesn't impress me from the analytical mind's point of view. And really, if some authority in spirituality, art or science would like to fool me and say that consciousness doesn't exist using good persuasive arguments, I would probably let myself be influenced by those arguments, and I might think to myself.. That's one side of the coin. Other times, often when I contemplating spontaneously, often when I am all alone, maybe I'm running in the forrest or do some other activity, or when I just do nothing at all. Anyway, then it might happen, I'm become strucked with my own intuition, and I go something like.. Now, mind and intuition have kind of polar opposite take on consciousness, one side(mind) might even not admit that there is something as consciousness/awareness, where as the other side, the intuitive side, can go crazy about consciousness, and recall it as something infinitely mysterious, something truly Godly. Two different takes on the same subject to say the least, why is that do you think? Is mind too stupid to grasp what consciousness is, or is the intuitive side of me too naive, maybe it even fool myself completely?

What happened so far: "I" had lovely discussions, especially with @now is forever and @tsuki: "I" never had such deep discussions before, but then again, they were just words... nothing else really, or were they? It felt blissful and then "I" fell deep, very deep (yet again) facing "my" dark sides: Why do "I" dare to post this here? Because you=I=we could learn, watch and learn! (if "you" are ready for it, "I" guess, and if "you" happen to resonate with what "I" write about ;-) So, "I" hope that "I" will never make these mistakes again (let "someone" or "something" trigger "my" ego). The world is ok as it is - only half dragons are dumb enough to try to pick a fight with real dragons. So, "I" faced the nothingness even deeper this time. "I" faced it head on and after meditating the heck out of it, it feels like "I" can walk through the mirror now, hopefully with a bit more grace.

i came here at the point one story ended and another began. came here because nothingness called for eternity. came here to close a circle by braking it. i came here for magic in life. i came here to understand myself while trying to understand others. i came here to make others understand through understanding me. came here for empowerment, came here for the reason of self-illumination and illumination of the world. i came here because i'm a functioning paradox in a paradoxic universe. i'm a catch 22 in a catch 22 i'm a catch 44. what doesn't mean i have no problems. it just means i found a solution of how to make sense of my life while caring for others. realizing i need them the same as they need me. 4+4=8 and 8 is the symbol of eternity.

Ok, so I feel a little destabilized. Maybe you can help me resolve the confusion somehow. So let's say you work as a cashier at a supermarket and you have all these metaphysical concepts in your head (that Leo keeps talking about), like god is nothingness and all that. You go to work and the mind keeps repeating: This product doesn't actually exist etc. Sometimes maybe the ego gets into a fearful state and you need to take a pause because the mind needs some cooling. Is the problem here too much inquiry/contemplation and too little meditation? Leo said somewhere that most people need a few years of meditation before they are able to do even 5 minutes of inquiry, because their mind is so rampant. I am 21,tried to cut back the inquiry/contemplation to focus on mindfulness meditation and emotional mastery as I have frequent anxiety attacks, but as I'm working from home all day, my mind naturally tends to go towards existential questioning, which most of the time freaks the ego out and can't focus on work. What should one do in this case? Is avoiding spirituality for a while but keeping a meditation practice the way to go for a while until the mind becomes more equanimous? Or am I just resisting feelings too much? Or am I not going out enough and just lost in the mind all day, losing touch with what is actually in front of me? I calm down a whole lot when I hang out with people or when I have a dog nearby that reminds me that I take things way too seriously, or when I workout at the gym and not think about nonduality for a while. As a personal assessement of my case in the spiral dynamics, I suppose I'm halfway into Green but needing to focus a lot on Orange as there is not nearly enough integration done there. I was much more loving, calm, easygoing, at peace with life and generally flowing, not taking any problem too seriously and comfortable with confusion before having all these spiritual concepts in the mind. Even my meditation was much more powerful before having a lot of nondual concepts making the mind restless. I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

I feel my mood fluctuating, but it doesn't scare me anymore. I know the emptiness now, I know the nothingness of things. nothing is permanent, everything will fade (emptiness remains) I think I can overcome sadness and devastation more lightly now. I try not to be afraid of them anymore, I try to welcome whatever arises. I try to embrace whatever negative emotion may arise. I know that it will make me more humble and more compassionate I'm becoming more and more aware of the mechanisms inside my mind: how all my problems are actually self-created and, really, nonexistent. wow. it's all in my mind, isn't it?

Emptiness is a necessary prerequisite for any objects to exist; without it, the object would be impossible. Basically, emptiness corresponds to two distinct scenarios: 1. It corresponds to the inherent existence (due to unchanging nature) that all conventional phenomena lack. 2. It corresponds to the dependent arising (a conditional phenomenon) i.e. subject to the same lack of inherent existence as every other object or phenomenon. This is referred to as the emptiness of emptiness. In Buddhism, there are two types of meditation - one is samatha and the other is vipassanā meditation. Samatha meditation is to calm or tranquil the mind by means of concentration. Whereas, vipassanā meditation is to mould the mind into seeing all things as they really are – an insight into the true nature of reality. The main focus of vipassanā meditation is to attain pure awareness via mindfulness. Vipassanā is often preceded by samatha but nonetheless, both types are inter-dependable throughout the practices in order to achieve favourable results in meditation. Microscopic analysis of things (Samatha) If one were to zoom in the analysis of a solid ball by gazing into its core contents i.e. atoms, one could realise that the ultimate result would yield to the absence of things (no unchanging elements). At the end of the day, one could declare that form is empty in a real sense because there is no core essence within it except for the elements of energy that evolve constantly under the influence of the external conditions. In other words, one could mention that the form entity has a delusive nature i.e. it is an appearance, though not illusive, but devoid of inherent existence and constantly varies under the influence of conditional phenomena. Macroscopic analysis of things (Vipassanā) If one were to zoom out the analysis of a solid ball by receding into a long shot distance indefinitely, the solid ball would appear to be shrinking into a tiniest size and one could realise that the ultimate result would yield to the absence of things (no things). In other words, the broader the perspective that one engages in, the lesser the multiplicity of things would appear to be. For example, the viewing of the earth from far and near would yield a different result to the observer’s perception altogether. Emptiness <-- Micro-perspective (multiplicity & definite) <-- MIND --> Macro-perspective (uniformity & infinite) --> Emptiness As a conclusion, the emptiness of phenomena is both the cause and consequence of the dependent nature of phenomena. It is the inherent quality of existence and is considered the ultimate truth because it inherently exists exactly as it is perceived when it is perceived directly by an enlightened mind. However, we shall not confuse emptiness with nothingness. Emptiness cannot be meant as nothingness. While we say that form is emptiness, there are still basic elements enfolding it. Just like when we do declare a vessel as empty, it does not literally mean nothing inside the vessel – there could still be air, radiation, dust, viruses, etc. that cannot be discerned by our naked eyes. At the end of the day, we could declare that form is empty in a real sense because there is no core essence within it except for the basic elements that orientate and evolve constantly under the influence of the external conditions. What our naked eyes view as form is actually the matter that is also known as concerted, aggregated or concentrated or wrapped energy. Since we can’t see energy with our naked eyes, we would say that the innermost of form is empty rather than nothing.

@AnthonyR In the absence of perception there is no 0 either. In fact there is no Nothing either. Just Pure and Absolute Silence. So the VOID or the nothingness experience that people reach when meditating is that pure and absolute silence? But that pure and absolute silence is ALIVE AND AWARE? Is that it? To lose the 5 senses (temporarily) and have the truth be revealed?

Yesterday, I finally deeply understood this point I heard during one of Rupert Spira's video. He says that when we pause and really look 'back' at our experience since a very young age... starting from our oldest memory, then you can explore and realize the fact that you do not have a single moment of non-experience. Sure, when we go to sleep at night, and wake up in the morning... Our body does not have any experience... But in our consciousness' experience there is no pause... that deep sleep almost feels like it was a "gap" with the duration of "zero" seconds... it almost is as if it did not exist at all. If we break our life-experience into frame by frame as can be done for a video file, then in our direct experience, we have a continuous flow of experiencing... never non-experience. The last thing we remember before sleeping is a last final blimp of a thought you might be having, or just shutting your eyes and laying there, then that quick blur of sleep happens which is a non-existent dot and assuming u did not have a dream, the next thing after closing ur eyes to sleep is opening ur eyes to wake up (with "time" passed in the real world) but you see, YOU DO NOT HAVE A PAUSE OR A STOP IN YOUR EXPERIENCE. And experience is existence! There is no non-experience aka non-existence. This is so simple! but it's overlooked so easily. I am not sure what other insights i can understand as a result of seeing this thing to be true. other than the fact that as Leo says "there is no where to go" there is just experieince and always will be. non-stop even if say u were in an accident, got knocked out and went into a coma for 1 month sure ur body is out cold and in other's experieince around you, your body was laying motionless for a month. but in ur experinece, if u just went black lets say, last thing u saw was car hitting the barrier and next thing u know is ur opening ur eyes. u dont have a memory or experinece of the blackness/nothingness - because there were no thoughts in that state and mind only knows thoughts/objects. so that memory is not recalled because it was just pure existence experience you had while u were out.

Yes, consciousness is Nothingness. Which is why you can't grasp hold of it. The Absolute is not an experience. It is Absolute and Mooji don't matter at that point. You are Mooji talking to yourself. Mooji was pointing you to Nothingness. I am not enlightned but I have seen the Absolute many times at this point from a variety of angles, deeper than some teachers. I have seen the Heart Sutra's truth for myself, and it is true as fuck. Realizing the Heart Sutra is what you want.

@DoubleYou Form is identical to formlessness. The Heart Sutra says it perfectly. The only trouble is becoming so insanely conscious to see it. It's right there under your nose. Don't go looking elsewhere. You are inside Nothingness at all times.

15/08/18 Beautiful discovery. Was browsing the forums, stepped on the thread something titled like "how come something come into being from nothing". Out of nowhere, with just this title give this enlightenment to me. I've been (universe) always there. Alone (not sad, loneliness on human level). IT"S SO BEAUTIFUL. I"M (UNIVERSE) SO BEAUTIFUL. WORDS CAN'T EXPLAIN THIS. I (universe) wanted to experience how's it to be with others, OTHERS (human beings you me different awareness) I wanted to create and experience love because I can, I'M THE INFINITE CLAY (As Leo told in his consciousness video), I guess on the human level, my mind is not remembering something such enlightened gurus used to tell but rather getting to understand all these. There still ego persist within me. I agree upon It's like my child. It's all up to the grace, the nothingness itself to unfold this whatever destination. I won't be bitching about ego. It's how I'm manifested into this world. Beautiful. My human body just wants to burst into tears, burst into my pant and burst every liquid that can come out from my body with emotions filled up. Just stay here. Stay within this. It's so beautiful

@Leo Gura What do you think of the distinction between the words nothingness and no-thingness? As in, one pointing to the absence of anything altogether and the other pointing to the absence of "things" and objects. Rupert Spira for example says; It's not a thing, but it's not nothing. Would you agree with that?

Because when you finally realize it, you'll say, "OMG! It's NOTHING!!!" There are many words for it that we use: Nothingness Formless Everything The ALL Oneness Nonduality Absolute Emptiness Void Mu True Self No-self God Brahman Infinity Absolute Infinity Apeiron Etc.