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I had a bit of ketamine, which is pretty darn good at making things feel like a dream. Still feeling it as I type this. I think it happened for a second, I felt for a moment that everything is just a dream happening for the sake of it. That nothingness created a dream that is seen through Sam. Is ketamine making me full of shit or is this really it? Nothingness just dreaming because it can? I am typing this as Sam, just want to know if I'm not falling into a solipsism trap or anything. How can Sam know if he is really making progress on the path when 'his' experience is the only thing that is known? This experience among many others that have been known, when conceptualized by my mind seem very identical to other awakening experiences I read or listen to on the internet. But how could I possibly know that it is truth? If experience is the only thing that is true, how can an experience that feels 'non-dual' be any more truthful than the experience of being fully immersed in Sam? Can truth of experience be verified? I feel as if my self-realization is regressing just by conceptualizing my experience into word and sharing it with you all, but I can't find any other way to verify that my self-realization is progressing. Is this just one of the paradoxes that are supposed to be encountered on the path? Am I thinking about this too much? Love you all, thank you.

Not sure why, but I thought Coral had to do with becoming one with the emotions and states one experiences? As in becoming "anger" or "sadness", similar to what an animal might be, without any resistance of morality, but a complete immersion into reality, not as an observer or actor but simply as reality itself. So I guess instead of sitting there and appreciating the infinitude of nothingness, one would again become immersed into the being of certain aspects of reality. Kind of like a loop?

Update: I've come to realize that there is a huge difference in quality and vividness of dream when I do some form of meditation or breathing before heading to sleep. Relaxing the body and mind and staying focused rather than going to sleep while being stuck in monkey mind as you drift off makes for much more detailed and long lasting dreams. I had a very detailed dream recently and it felt like I was in that "world" for three days. I think this is crucial if I am to gain lucidity - I need to spend more time in the dream world in order to observe the differences between it and the "real", waking world. Also, I've been considering that it might be possible to be self-aware (as consciousness), while the body and mind is in deep sleep (not dreaming). I remember reading someone's post here on the forum about that. In terms of spiritual work it may prove useful to play around with sleeping conditions so that such a state could be achieved - it may be the case that ego drops off when the body/mind falls asleep and non-dual consciousness may be more apparent without the illusory phenomena arising within it being a distraction (i.e. you will be aware of yourself as a void of nothingness, in "deep sleep"). All of this is just speculation so I will see what I can do and report back.

What you described is devils advocate. You still don't understand existence itself is meaning. You can't write meaningless in a book without creating meaning. You can't paint a painting about meaningless without creating meaning. To convey meaningless you need meaning. You can't point to meaningless without existence to convey it. There is only existence inside nothingness it's a paradox, it's not a something neither is it nothing.

@Telepresent Oh im very aware this is just for fun, hence the titel "a rant" and my comment: And thanks for steering the conversation back to track. It seems quite common for people to first try to destroy an idea instead of just playing with it, even when asked to (Creative people seems to generally play first) My Idea is a bit similar to your alien idea in a way. Guess there is alot of talk about us living in a matrix like simulation. Thinking about it...if we create AI that can know human experience and God create human that can know Gods experience and teach itself about itself then, what to say There is something that created God? Maybe it goes back like that into infinity? Not sure if you can get "above" nothingness thou if that is what God is... @ivankiss Interesting. But we do tend to divide and group stuff together, human creations for example into: art (for enjoyment) and technology (for survival) which can be subdivided, and some stuff is inbetween. Otherwise we cannot communicate well, as all is nature and nothing needs to be said. Similarly the creation of AI is a subdivision of technology that is completely new...similarly to human mind is a completely new technology of reality. Guess all I am saying is that it is a big shift, something big is happening.

@EvilAngel Maybe we can start saying "Nothingness is totally identified with the false sense of self in that body-mind" instead. Let's see how long it takes before we all get locked up in a padded room.

@EvilAngel yes indeed, but conscious experience of being pure nothingness will answer your question!

pure nothingness, pure awareness or pure being is what you are, the rest is just an idea..

@Jack River exactly right. Closing your eyes feels like a less authentic and fluid way to become stilled. I actually find staring into nothingness with eyes open distracts me less than with eyes closed.

3a.so where am i on the path? i'm pretty lost, i understand i haven't fully surrendered to the emptiness/ nothingness. 3b. have i atleast caught glimpsed the whole ox or glimpsed a full enlightenment is what i would like to ask, but my opinion is there's no telling from another individuals prespective what i have experienced in my direct experience, you can only guide to what sounds right and what doesn't, because then theres no next steps but to embody it consciously to a mastery level, if i had to put it into an anology, i'm trying to create an imaginary ledge to stand on, on the mountain of nothing, because i'm lost in absolutely nothing. even the word enlightenment is not real, because it's pointing to this absolute nothingness which is not what my conceptual ideas of enlightenment were. but its very relieving and peaceful to know that its all an illusion, (well i say illusion, but its not even that, it's just nothing) 6. thank you 7. thank you

@Cortex yes, you are. You are nothingness (no-self). Then, you transform into everythingness. From there you transform back into your ego. While this is taking place, you are at peace--no suffering at all. You're completely detached from what is occurring. You're complete and free (even while making such a transformation). When you go back to your physical ego and this physical world, you'll think that this experience is absolutely amazing! Oh wow! It's so massive being that infinite black hole and collapsing into myself! Because you felt a love (bliss) when you became embodied again--which indicate that you're in the to love realm--earth. However, even though it's amazing to the ego, it's really nothing. Later, if you look carefully, life itself (you) operates on the "principles" of an awakening. Yes, sometimes life may seem hard. You have to struggle to work. Some ppl really are in a "horrible" situation. But, "horrible" is an illusion and it's temporary. This is just a scarcity mindset. There is no distance between you and success. Your awakening points out that distance is an illusuion. Everything is temporary. There are always ways to learn to get out of it and go with the flow of life. Transformations in life are flows. Flow into love. You did that in your awakening. Learn to love yourself first and eventually others. Teach them how to live and love. When you mastered this, you become "enlightened." Beautiful life lessons from the deepest awakening that can be applied to living life to the fullest: Easier said than done. Sometimes we have to unlearn many things.

@CreamCat @Sahil Pandit Just a thought for ya’s, also illusory, but, thought is dualistic seeing one side or the other, which always reveals you are the one, aware of the two-ness. Also, odd reminder perhaps but, pupils are nothingness, you. Notice the eyes you see are twos, but as you see, it is one, and all are emptiness.

Yes, it is one and the same. During an awakening, you'll actually see yourself as the entire universe (aka, no-self, nothingness, infinity, whatever you call it) going back into your "small, little" ego. If you include such a description in your LP, be tactful in how you say it. That's all I'm saying.

Pursuing this will only set you up to fall. You do not need a relationship. It is impossible to form a relationship that is not based on an illusion. If you want to live within an illusion, press ahead. Otherwise forget it, and surrender to the infinite beauty and bliss of the nothingness of now.

@cetus56 I never said I live off bread and water. I said it can be done. There is no need to desire foods the egoic mind would consider to be more 'pleasant' than others. I think you have a lot of growing to do, Cetus. I don't want to hijack this thread. The Truth remains, you must submit to the bliss within the nothingness of Being. Anything else is an illusion.

You are not submitting to the bliss of nothingness. While you still have thoughts, you are not Being.

You can't be proactive within an illusion. The universe will deal with those who chose to be unconscious, as it has so many times before. And any desire is not your true Self. No matter what it is. Your only 'calling', if you will, is to spread the message of awakening. Which is why I am here. Submit to the nothingness. Do it now. Just Be.

There's no such thing as depression. It is a concept in your egoic sense of self. Submit to the nothingness. What is wrong with just Being? No wants, no desires, no feelings. Just Be. You are wanting something that is an illusion. Stop the wanting.

While you do not submit to nothingness, you are chasing an illusion. Socialising is an illusion that leads to suffering. Just Be.

Is it illusory bliss and amazement of nothingness?

Enjoy. A Loaf holds many grains of corn And many myriad drops the Sea: So is God's Oneness Multitude And that great Multitude are we. The All proceedeth from the One, And into One must All regress: If otherwise, the All remains Asunder-riven manyness. God is an utter Nothingness, Beyond the touch of Time and Place: The more thou graspest after Him, The more he fleeth thy embrace.

Yeah, in a sense I think so. When you surrender to being you do also discover what the lens of No Ego points to. But that's a very specific case. In most cases Meditation and Self-Inquiry function very differently. I still Meditate but I don't really do Self-Inquiry anymore. Self-Inquiry became moot for me a while ago. When you discover "being nothingness" you don't really need to cling to the question 'what am I?' anymore. And also 'what am I?' is an unnecessarily Egoic question because it's designed to point an Ego to No Ego. You don't ask 'what am I?' after discovering being. It's the Ego seeker that asks 'what am I?'

This is a great question. Kudos for thinking of it. Being is not a knowing or a doing. No Ego, or as Adyashanti approximates it as "resting as Awareness", is a being. Being is a surrender to nothingness. This is No Ego which you might discover when you meditate.

@Jack River Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I’m probably jumping ahead, but I think this goes into desire, want vs need, objective vs subjective, and even infinite intelligence vs self/brain desires, and if I’m not mistaken we don’t see that the same. I’m not assuming, so correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve expressed desire is of the ego, or (small s) self. But a decent case could be made that when desires of the self are met, experienced, known, and then naturally transcended, a foundation within is built, which enables one to fulfill desire of deeper unification through helping others. So a small decision, and wether it is understood / accepted / viewed as a want or need, is a piece of a bigger thing. And perhaps the fashion in which one goes about helping others is impacted by the desire path, or the nondesire path. I think this is also true for many occasions of sacrifice of one’s self desires, on a path of discovery of the greater desire. In the same sense, in the biggest picture, I would say Nothingness is without desire, so desire must be of the individual. But at the same time, a case could be made that nothingness has desire, because it is you and I, doing whatever we’re doing. So perhaps a notion of unconditional desire arises...? (Sorry, I believe I strayed quite a bit from the original convo. Not to mention, hacked yet another thread.) ? @EvilAngel (sorry)

I first tried 5-meo-dmt a year ago and had a classic "white out" experience. At the time, before I knew much about the substance, I thought this was just a normal occurrence, my conception being that if I was having a true experience of no-self, then there would be no self to remember the experience. I later became aware that this is not indeed the case, that many folks do in fact have fully non-dual, unitive experiences with God consciousness (or however you choose to language it) and remember quite well despite the individual self being absent. So, this time around, a month ago: Set + Setting: a ceremonial, group ritual with an experienced facilitator in a comfortable "temple" environment Dosage: started with 13 mg synthetic, vaporized. I held in as long as possible, laid back, exhaled, and as soon as everything in my visual field started to fractalize... BLACK OUT I came to, what felt like just a few moments later (not sure how long it actually was), feeling like things were a bit squiggly but had the sensation that I had missed the main event. I told the facilitator, who knew about my previous white out experience, "The same thing happened. Except this time it was black not white. I just wasn't there." He replied, "Right.... you weren't there because there is no you to be there." A little exasperated, I struggled to communicate something to the effect of, "No no, this wasn't a unitive experience of no-self, I just literally wasn't conscious." I was encouraged by him and the group to take more. So I did another 10 mg. Same exact thing happened. So he dosed me again, this time up to 12. (The idea being -- if you're still cogent and so little time has passed, you haven't broken through. Do more. Go deeper. But the medicine has accumulative effects apparently so that's why he wasn't jumping me to a 20mg dose, say). SAME DAMN THING HAPPENED. Black out. Nothing. At this point, I'm feeling quite frustrated, as well as deeply saddened that this experience of merging with allness infinity -- which I had seen several of the folks in our group go through by the time it was my turn -- just didn't seem available to me. I started crying, saying, "I'm just not there, I'm just not there," feeling again this sensation that something had happened but that I just wasn't there to witness it. Someone in the group then coyly remarked, "But that's the cosmic joke!" That, funny enough, triggered a dramatic shift in consciousness for me. Suddenly I was swimming in a dark, watery void of nothingness. There was still a very vague sense of a "me" experiencing "this," and every time this thin layer of "me" tried to reach for some stability, point of reference, or grounding, it just collapsed into the endless churning sea of arising and falling. I have a vague memory of laughing, feeling free from all the anxiety and pain that lives within the construct of my self, and I think I started to physically "swim" on the bed I was in, relishing the silky undulations of nothingness. As the stuff started to wear off, my typical sense of existential grief started to return. I "looked" at it (inwardly, not visually) and it appeared to me (experientially, not visually) as multi-dimensional and endlessly deep. Infinite. The grief is infinite. I said out loud, "there's just so much pain. There's infinite pain." The facilitator responded. "Yes, there is infinite pain. And there is therefore is infinite compassion." #buddhismpsychedlia And again, there was (and still continues to be) a sadness that I didn't experience non-dual consciousness. I'm wondering if anyone has any insights as to what's going on here. Why the black outs? Why no access to a full unitive/non-dual state? I'm sure not every brain's neurology responds to any given substance the same way, so is this just a sign that this particular molecule works within me in a more atypical way? Maybe it's just "not the right medicine" for me? Or perhaps I'm just super sensitive, and in order for my awareness to stay present and not give way under the weight of such intensity, I need a smaller dose? I'm curious about trying, say, 8 mg, and seeing what happens. Maybe I wouldn't black/white out. Or perhaps a different intake method could be useful -- plugging, for instance -- would that effect how the stuff works on/in me? The insight into emptiness has certainly left a mark on my perception and meditation practice, for which I am grateful. But I can't help but still feel that nagging urge to continue chasing the dragon, as it felt so incomplete... Any insights would be gratefully appreciated !