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@Serotoninluv that sense of depending on reward or “bliss” seems to lead to illusion. As the self clings to such an idea of bliss as that “future state” to be attained. Ego seems to project its reward in time. Such as projecting enlightenment as a fixed thing in time/future.

That’s why I prefer “nothingness/emptiness” over “bliss”. Seekers seem likely to associate bliss as satisfaction and trigger the self to chase. The self is unlikely to chase “nothing/empty”

"Peace" and "Bliss" are loaded terms for my self. Would it be ok to rephrase it as "If these thoughts are simply happening, as if automatically, in an atmosphere of total nothingness/stillness/emptiness, well, no problem."

@Mu_ If you actually did read the discussion that you call good you would have noticed we did discuss the different words that could be used so why make that a point of contention. Whether one prefers to use craving or suffering or desire it doesn't matter really since they all stem from an existential yearning that appears to be what disturbs our peace and contentment. Much of the rest you talk about to me is the ceremony and adornment of the path but for my own experience I am a minimalist with regard to the path. Too much complication and complexity in the path appears to distract a very many from the genuine purpose of it, the cessation of this existential yearning that manifests as the craving, suffering and desire in us. I have found from decades of being in spiritual circles of seekers that the monkey mind wants to mentally masturbate over the complicated complexity of the ceremony and adornment along the path as a distraction so that the cessation of yearning gets lost or ignored in favor of the path to it. They become attached to the complex ritual of the path. This attachment quite often is cultivated by seeking 'understanding' expressed as the direct insight of the complicated path instead of that direct experience of being present in peace and equanimity. Once I did have direct experience of being present in peace a sense of bliss and fulfillment quenched the existential yearning and I realized the attachment to the complicated ritualized path is what was keeping me from it. @Emanyalpsid Contemplate your own experience, couldn't it be said that the deepest and clearest insights come from those moments when the clarity of the unattached awareness is perceiving reality without the veil of self identity obscuring it? How can we have genuine and clear insight with the conditioned self identity filtering our perception? So it seems that attachment doesn't lead to insight but it is liberation, unattached perception, that leads to insight.

Good discussion, but thought I'd just chim in with on thing. Many awakened teachers from different traditions and even within the Buddhist tradition talk about awakening in different ways. For example you seem to have a strong opinion that liberation is the end of suffering, which I've heard as the end of craving, but not the same as actual discomfort, sadness, pain, struggle, frustration, pretty much the span of the human state. Suzuki Roshi said its like normal everyday life but about 1 inch off the ground. He aludes to there being more energy and warmth of heart. I believe some Hindu religions point to state of awakening that are like BOOM constant bliss, ectasy and and direct connection with the consciousness of life itself in which you understand all information, can fly, make gold appear. Neo-Advita I believe is seeing the radical truth that Self is never not the case and no need for the cultivation of the human being. One can do what ever they want and its all the play of Self. Your an asshole, you can stay an asshole and being free because thats what is the case. Bliss may come and go, love may come and go, you may hate, you may suffer, but your hands have been freed from believing you are the doer. The list goes on and on.... This is why I've never said I'm enlightened expect in a recent post in which someone asked if there were any others on the forum, but I tried to put clear indicators of what that meant, but dont think I did a good job. There's definately something to this spiritual/seeking/enlightening/awakening thing but where you draw a line and define what makes someone or knowing in ones self what enlightened is, is slightly difficult, because there are no objective standards. I guess for me its knowing without a shred of doubt what you are and the craving to seek has seized. Its almost kinda funny because one could describe it as almost where you started. someone would ask you who you are and you would know without a shred of doubt that your one with Self, and they would ask well how do you know, and the best answer you could honestly give is, well its obvious what are you talking about, just like you would when you had no idea that you were anything other then just a guy who was born with no connection to Self, it would just be obviously so to you. The coming and going of expansive states of consciousness come and go, bliss and love would come and go, struggles and challenges with normal every day life will continue to happen, inifinity and explosion into area's that are mysterious come and go, new insights into human/scientific functioning and capacity continue to form, the body will still decay, Alzheimers may still happen, a heart attack could be around the corner, but a steadiness, equanimity, non-clinging and understanding remains.

I had to pass around 1 year of agony and confusion to a depression like level, suicidal feelings, and unworthy existence. The same pain you can identify in the body, that is your guide, the numbness in a limb per example or a gnot in the plexus or a high pressure in the skull in the right side. Dwelve into that pain, into that confusion, into that agony, into that numbness, don't be afraid to be lost, there is only bliss behind.

Felt this sub forum was the correct one to honor a true creative who followed his life purpose. I’m not much of a comic book guy (nor have I really been - just never got into it) but just wanted to say RIP to a guy who truly and relentlesy followed his own bliss.

@Nadosa Perhaps. Yet perhaps it is only as difficult as you make it out to be. Regardless the outcome is well worth it. Every human being has the god given right to live a life of bliss.

Then why complain about the depression and the sadness? After all, these fleeting states amount to the excitement and drama of life. Give it a try. What you call boring might end up being bliss instead.

For who do all those thoughts/emotions/feelings arise? Who is the subject? Saying that "I seem to be stuck..." amounts to saying that I am a thought, which in case "thinks" accepting reality seems unfair. Being stuck in the egotistic paradigm is what causes you to not realize your enlightenment. The word "I" and believing to be this "I" is what creates duality in the first place. Realize this and all worries disappear in a blink of an eye, and is replaced by bliss.

The Self's very nature is what I'm talking about. The Self's nature is to know itself nondually. That's what it is to be Self. No, I don't think it's a great analogy, but not for reasons I can explain. I get the sense you are trying hard to intellectualize the realization. Your mind is working overtime to try to conquer this problem, to digest it, to "know" it. Not gonna happen. Thinking and the mind must, in the end, be given up to see the Truth. Yes, it is bliss, yes, I am aware of it all at times -- but it is not the bliss that you think of when you think of mental bliss. It is not mental bliss. Mental bliss exists in contrast: "I wasn't blissful, then I did this (say, self-inquiry), then I was blissful." That's mental bliss, the bliss that comes and goes. That's not what I'm talking about. The bliss I'm talking about has never stopped. The mind is not aware of it at all times. I am, though, but not in a mental (that is, dualistic) way. When you realize that the very idea of forgetting the Self doesn't even make sense... that's Enlightenment. Look, we could say that the mind is still active, that the enlightened person also has vasanas that arise. In one sense that is true. In a deeper sense, however, it is not, since the enlightened person does not acknowledge the reality -- or even the appearance -- of the mind. Yes, this sounds correct. Good work. Keep going. Just to be clear, I wouldn't describe it as looking for your consciousness but as looking for the "I." It's a small difference, and they are very related, but I would emphasize the "I." "Here's what I'm doing," you write. Who is this "I" who knows what he's doing? You're already enlightened, so it doesn't matter. But that stream of me thoughts may seem to be quite unnecessarily unhappy. I don't know, sorry. As far as I am concerned these are not related to enlightenment.

I have a long history with psychedelics. Having done Ayauasca many times. Each time has been a smooth experience, full of love, surrender, oneness and bliss. But, when it comes to 5-Meo, I find myself terrified to do the first trip. I fear my death. I regularly have debilitating panic attacks. I fear my first time, I will get a bad panic attack and then have no way to let go, to surrender. Just 30 minutes of pure hell. Then I doubt I'd have the courage to try it again. No enlightenment, no liberation. So I find myself at an impasse, not able to find the courage to 'pull the trigger'. So I had an idea. Since the Ayauasca was such a beautiful experience, if I took Ayauasca just before doing the 5-Meo, putting myself in the right space (pure bliss, love and peace) I'd be much more capable of fully letting go with the 5-Meo. So my question is, how long after doing Ayauasca should I wait to do 5-Meo? Could I do it the next day? @Leo Gura

When a human being enters the journey of self-discovery it is a very painful process, due to the re-routing of the physical an emotional processes that lead to genuine awakening. Remember! No Pain, No Gain. Those who deluded themselves of a pleasurable journey are stuck in their heads. Only in pain, one encounters the bliss.

Is this ''non-objective experience'' bliss itself? Are you aware of 'it' all your waking hours? This really resonates with me. Everytime I've had lightbulb moments through self-inquiry, it always felt blissful...for absolutely no reason at all. It wasn't an experience, there was really nothing special going on. The first thought that arises is, ''oh crap! this is soo obvious. How come I ever missed it? How can I ever loose this?'' But then again, this 'stateless state' would eventually be forgotten due latent mental tendencies/Vasanas/thoughts. When you never forget that Self no matter what, is that permanent Enlightenment?

@Serotoninluvif I find some psychedelics to be in my reach I will be happy to jump on board However just the one has led to some radical realizations @Jack Riverunderstand ?? you spoke of distinctions ending and this was in no self while you were out on the water? Was their sounds? You make it sound like a trance. The first memory I have of no self I was literally gliding around in total bliss ? complete oneness being awareness

I appreciate your thoughts but I disagree. I'm not particularly interested in getting into a debate about it, though. Thanks, but the truth it doesn't really matter all that much one way or the other in the end. There is a direct experience of the Truth that is more important than the theories. 1. Whether there is pain depends upon your context. There may appear that there is, but there is not, actually. This can only be understood when you know your true nature yourself. 2. No, enlightenment is a matter of piercing the illusion of personal identity. The best way is Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry combined with other practices to quiet the mind. There's no real use trying to understand the enlightened state beforehand, except to know that it is pure truth and bliss. It is beyond words and concepts, actually, and best not to weigh yourself down with expectations. You cannot fully surrender on your own. You can only partially surrender -- that's the most you can do. What that means is that you accept whatever happens -- both in the outside world, and in terms of your thoughts and emotions. Let it go. Let it all go. Let decisions go. Let pain go. Let the need to change things go. Or if you feel that need, let that go. Whatever you do, think, or feel, let it go, let it go, let it go. Whatever pain you experience, let it go. Whatever desire you have, let it go. If you feel like you cannot let it go, let that feeling go too. That is the continuous effort of surrender. This will turn into full surrender but you cannot control when that happens. The other possibility is to practice Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry at all waking moments, which will automatically turn into full surrender at a certain point.

I believe that every single living being is entitled to everything they need for everlasting bliss. When it comes to human beings, there exist models and theories which outline the needs that all human beings must get met in order to live the longest and happiest life possible. One of these models/theories is Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid.

I doubt the Ananda part. At least i can't feel it. That existence and consciousness are essentially the same thing, makes totally sense to me. I literally can see it. But the bliss part is absolutely missing for me.

Love is so powerful, you could experience eternity passing by so smoothly, so easily, in the blink of an eye, in the bliss of the moment Love is magical, feeling the hundreds of butterflies fluttering in your stomach, feeling the support from people far away from

"Ultimate Truth is Wordless. The Silence within the Silence" "Darkness within darkness the gateway to all understanding" "Silence is truth. Silence is bliss. Silence is peace. And hence silence is the self." There's so many beautiful quotes, for the direct path. I think the problem is most people just don't like the silence and dont want to melt into it, ego death is also very scary in the silence and can bring out existential fears.

I see that spiritual seekers negate physical processes and other perceptions linked together with intelligence. An advanced teaching includes it. In fact we know how awakening looks like in the brain and the reasons for bliss. What we don't know how the body and perceptions come to be in Atman (or how Atman comes to be in the body). If ever we do, if we judge consciousness to be primary and not matter, then the brain is a receiver. It's a glass half-full, half-empty thing.

If Ramana Maharshi was a kid in a western world in the 21st century, his path wouldn’t be as direct and wouldn’t have had the results he had. Ramana Maharshi was a raised in a very different environment and culture. Yeah he did absolutely nothing. He sat in a temple for days and weeks with little to no food where rats ate into his thighs and he sat there in bliss. Didn’t need to do anything. Can you do that? Probably not. You don’t appreciate the depth of the problem and the deeper of a hole people western countries are in spiritually in terms of how much harder and longer I t can be for them to get enlightened. This is a self deception from lack of seeing the greater context of Ramana Maharshi’s time and setting.

I am still a noob on the path to some degree, but after 7 years of pretty consistent practice, quite a bit of psy use, and the last few years of obsessive practice. I can't help but to think how I feel like the destruction of 'separate self' is a bit of a sham, dishonest. - Yes can have conscious complete dissolution in meditation, in sleep states, etc. And you can experience deep empty-ness/freedom when functioning in a body-mind as well. And I don't know how far that goes.. But afaik, as long as you are functioning through a body-mind, you will experience yourself as separate to some degree. You are only the full substratum in these glimpses. If you were it out of those glimpses, I don't see how you could function or even experience life. Nor what would the point of it be? Wouldn't it make more sense to be able to transcend it, rest, know, and then go into your life again? (I guess from a POV of disliking yourself/life, that that would seem desirable, but hating one's life, albeit popular on earth, isn't some standard or built-in state (it can really seem as if it's all negative, if that's your state of mind, it can distort the whole universe, I've had many times where when I was feeling good again, that I've been: 'oh wow, it's actually really possible to feel good', it totally seemed impossible at times, I know)). - So anyways, as long as you have relative functioning.. You can have relative joys and pains: when someone leaves, when someone comes, when someone likes what you do, when someone dislikes what you do. (And yeah, pain doesn't have to be as painful as we often think, can be beautiful even, and masters aren't beyond this, I've noticed myself, and that's only normal, and some speak about it openly, like David Spero.) And to know that Peace/Self-Opening can never leave you, that you are also inherently untouched, that is of course a world of difference, and sometimes you may be even so high it doesn't matter at all. Though I think to strive to be beyond emotions all together is a trap. Same with striving to be in a state of constant 'bliss', love can hurt as well, it's just part of it, good times, bad times, or good times, challenging times). So I would say, don't go around, thinking you are not enlightened if you get hurt (nor think you are enlightened..) or that you need more 'fixing'. Though we can also use our pain to know more of our nature of freedom and grow, certainly.

@Leo Gura Was Ramana Maharshi a developed human being from your understanding Leo? Even though he didn’t know about the stages of development, he is stage turquoise. And he lived his life in meditation, surrendered to the will of God in a state of complete bliss, from the age of 16. There is no improvement to be done there on top of utter perfection. There isn’t even such a thing as development when it is all subjective. There is no more developed or less developed. There is just the Self. I haven’t seen the Self so I’m really talking out of my breadth. In meditation there is bliss for a few minutes, and there I see that this is all I ever wanted. So I say no more until I am more mature and developed in this way. I could be wrong about all of this. It’s nice to share perspectives with you. @Rilles We can’t stop action because that’s the nature of the universe, it creates through us, with us, and all around in infinite directions and depths.

@Leo Gura How can you develop something that is absolutely perfect? The Self is this. How can the question of development arise when we experience this divine love or steady stream of bliss within ourselves in each moment? Paradoxically I’ve experienced dozens of times that development will happen when we live in this state of perfection faster than ever before because there is no more fear holding us back from change, and massive growth Also it is worth contemplating, who is the one developing? This implies that there is an “I”, a doer. This is why I say and the sages and Jesus, find the Self first, and all else will be shown, all questions will be answered. Most importantly we find Happiness. The mind then falls silent, because the only reason it wanted to develop itself (had a need to or desire) was to find happiness.