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as i said before there are no levels to self realization ( enlightenment) they talk about levels because they have no understanding of what it really is, and what happens when one is, what most are experiencing is personal growth. Personal growth may never lead to enlightenment, meditation may never lead to enlightenment. Most of this site is not about enlightenment, or attaining enlightenment, it is about dealing with issues of the human identity. You can deal with human identity issues forever and you may never be enlightened. Enlightenment isnt about personal growth, its about being and functioning as something other than the human identity. Most will refute this but it will do no good, because most are not enlightened, and in this world of religious fanaticism, newageism, and liberalism, warped thinking, the world has tainted the word enlightenment until anyone can be on a level of enlightenment. Those who are know better, and you cant tell those who have a belief based on speculation, and other people's thoughts and ideas. Most of the people writing and talking about enlightenment , are not enlightened, this may sound harsh and judgmental but sometimes reality will seem harsh in the face of nonsense, belief, programing, speculation about things that humans know nothing about. As for the path, there is none that is another misconception, where do these paths lead, when are you supposed to reach your destination, most have no expectation of arrival of the path that they are on because they have been taught, that its about levels. journeys, and paths. How can one go to a place they know nothing about, when everything they know came from others, most of whom didn't know just like them. I have written a lot of things on this site but not once was it about taking a journey, a path, level, it is always about one thing, and that is self realization and how to attain it. I know there are a few who have considered those things, and they will profit from it, the rest will hold on to their beliefs. Beliefs are the most destructive thing you can put your hand on, it imprisons you for a very long time most often. There are two kinds of experience, one is the experience of the human identity, which is always controlled by programing, false belief and the warped perception created by those two. Then there is the experience of the awakened being, they can see the reality without programing, false belief, and warped perception destroying it before it can be experienced. So looking at experience one should examine the quality of it and where it came from and what perception influenced it. For the human identity this is hard stuff to face, and most likely impossible for most but for the few who can, mastery awaits them. For the few, the mundane answers of this world will not fulfill the desire to know the reality of themselves, and the world and universe around them, and to experience liberation in a way that everything outside of them is not what controls them and their destiny.

This is not about reason. When were an ego all we have is reason and morality. Awakened people feel deeper than unawakened people. The reason for this is moralizing cripples our capacity for compassionate action. We don't need morals. We need to wake up.

@Dustin Dustbin Hi Dustin, The way I see it is your reaction is also part of the divine. At the moment however your relationship to this cosmic dance is the problem. That's the ego. The part that thinks it's in control of any of this. Who knows how you would handle it in an awakened state? Life will live the moment through you. However, I imagine that whatever you do will be perfect for the moment. That's mastery. Mal

I work hard, and enjoy socialising with friends, which usually involves a couple of bottles of wine, and a good chin wag, so to speak. I have been working on self development for a number of years, but have only felt 'awakened' shall we say, for about 3 years, and only making time to take it more seriously, in the last year. Can there be a balance in the socialising and wine activity, with effective self actualization ?

Yes. And this is why you can still have all kinds of addictions and delusions and at the same time be enlightened. Trungpa and his alcoholism and womanising spring to mind here. Very low on the self development hierarchy, but as long as you can make the gross realm an object then youre awakened. In fact, this can become quite dangerous because of the careless nature of realization.

Yes, this happens all the time. This work is called awakening for a reason. You are starting to see who is living in a dream and who is for real. That includes you most of all. Have compassion for yourself and that will naturally spill over to others too. What is changing is the way you see things. The external world has not changed at all so you can't get angry at it. Realign your awakening awareness with it. Some old ways will fall away to make way for the new. Growth is always the hardest thing for the self when we have to admit that what we were portraying before may have not existed in an awakened state.

Thanks for your reply ranzo, the only people who are qualified to talk about enlightenment or as i call it self realization are those who experience a transition from the human being to the kind of being that existed before the body and will exist after it has decayed. 99.9 % of the human population function solely as the human identity, which basically functions in an unconscious manner controlled by programing, false belief, and desires of the identity body. That which existed before the body (consciousness, which is the creative source of life), created the body to experience this life in, when it tires of it, it will step out of this body and continue on to other creations. In the 99.9 %, consciousness is lost in the identity body that it created, basically forgetting its true state of being. For the 1/10th of one percent, consciousness has awakened from the dream of the identity body and retained its ability to experience its true state of being, even while functioning in the identity body, but not controlled by programing, false beliefs and desires of the flesh, basically the identity body and its ego are in the back seat, rather than driving the car. The 99.9 % will leave the body with all its programing, false belief and desires of the flesh that it will have to deal with somewhere, sometime, because all of that is rooted within consciousness and will remain until liberation from it can be achieved. The 1/10th of one percent have become liberated from those things in this life and when they tire of the body they will simply step out of the body, as a liberated being of consciousness which is our true estate. I understand that the human identity cannot understand this, but when i speak of this in relation to the human identity, I am speaking to the consciousness, rather than the human being, in that it might create a spark within the consciousness of the individual, at a point that may lead to the awakening or a greater awakening. Even though you cannot fully grasp this now, contemplating these things may lead to a better understanding of yourself, understanding more about yourself and the real you that is possessing the body will bring greater change in your life. The answer to your question is in this. cheers

@abrakamowse From reading your posts it's evident you've been initially self-realized/ awakened. This is a good place to be, so don't feel discouraged. Leo will be posting a video on the stages of enlightenment soon, so we can learn and grow into yet higher awareness. As he said to take this process in baby steps and to enjoy the journey. Also, keep referring to Ayla's 'Mind Attack After Initial Seeing' when it feels tough. Helps me a lot. Hugs

Birds of a feather flock together. I have lived this aloneness all my life, when you don't follow the crowd in life you may sense that you are alone as you awaken,and because you are awakening it doesnt mean that everything around you is awakening with you, it isn't. Consider the feeling a good thing, and know that once awakened you are connected to everything in a way that really counts. As you awaken you will see those around you in a more clear way, fully self realized you will know them better than they know themselves. That feeling of being alone is just a thought, how can you be alone when in your realness you are the creative source of life.

@abc Not everyone who's self-realized becomes a yogi. There are thousands of awakened people on earth just living regular life, work, pursue their passion, raise families, etc. Self-realization is a perspective. But like @Arnie said above, work on rooting out neuroses (like fear, etc) and build yourself up first. This process is a journey that can take years and decades. My list above is a long-term endeavor. You asking these questions is the starting point, grow from there. Hugs

@Actualizer Hi Actualizer, Your question seems to indicate, sadly, quite a serious if not dangerous misapprehension about the true nature of the self. Let's imagine for the sake of this inquiry that you and your partner were both awakened beings. At this stage, granted, you are not going to be able to make the same meaning as a 1st tier deficiency centred person who craves and needs another person or object to complete their existence. However, you are indeed going to feel the effects of inauthentic and abusive intentions if your partner "cheats" on you. Cheating is an unconscious motivation. It reeks of inauthenticity, deception, mistrust and lack of communication. Moreover, it spells out the very notion that there is no real relationship there to begin with if there is a need to go behind our partners back in order to get some deficiency need met in the form of a secret affair or one night stand. This does not mean that enlightened relationships should be bound by conventional monogamy. On the contrary, enlightened relationships can indeed be polyamarous and open relationships with the conscious consent of all individuals involved can now be a real possibility because of the lack of attachment and neediness of the 1st tier perspectives. But in amongst all this conscious consent is also the wisdom, compassion and sensitivity towards all parties concerned. No self means no "ego", it does not mean no feeling. In fact, it's only enlightened people that CAN feel and function properly because they no longer hold any of the intellectual views of the unenlightened stages, but they certainly hold all of the structures created while their body developed through those levels. I hope this sheds some light on your question. Mal

How many different levels are there that frequent this site. do you think it is possible to speak to all levels with one statement. What is an awakened person to you, if i could ask. you said: your description of a fully realized person sounds more like a dysfunctional tool unable to consciously adjust to the real world. are you self realized? no you are not, so how would you know what a fully realized person does or does not do? you said: I also harbour great suspicion for those who claim to know they are in contact with the absolute truth, who find reasons to argue instead of integrate and display an air of low level disrespect and a whiff of bitterness toward "ordinary" people who function at different levels of truth. I am also averse to people who seem to have lost the ability to speak to people on their level and give them the answers they need. I never said anything about absolute truth, and i never argue or debate. I state what my own experience, knowledge and understanding that came from experience, to debate that would be foolish because i would be debating with a human identity that was still functioning unconsciously and trying to debate me with their programing and false beliefs. You harbour great suspicion, and you are adverse to what i am talking about because you are functioning as the human identity, i am not. I cannot make one statement fit everyone here, when its one on one, i can make it fit but not in an open forum with people on many levels, I have to say what needs to be said, and the ones who are awakening normally as a rule make an effort to understand rather than, harbour great suspicion and have an adversion to people they know nothing about. I can assure you if and when you become self realized, you wont be making these statements, and you will at the very least be trying to understand that you haven't or can't, until then i understand and it is ok. cheers

@charlie2dogs Hi Charlie, I have to admit I am somewhat lost as to where you are leading us/people with these insights. Yes a more awakened person does not live in the head exclusively identified with memory and anticipation of future events based on that memory. But I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe your claim that any sane individual (enlightened or not) would not be adjusted to reality in that there is indeed a past that is real and a future that needs to be planned for. Your description of a fully realized person sounds more like a dysfunctional tool unable to consciously adjust to the real world. I also harbour great suspicion for those who claim to know they are in contact with the absolute truth, who find reasons to argue instead of integrate and display an air of low level disrespect and a whiff of bitterness toward "ordinary" people who function at different levels of truth. I am also averse to people who seem to have lost the ability to speak to people on their level and give them the answers they need. Excuse me for my frankness but your posts are not resonating. -Mal

This is an interesting and important question. Where does this answer come from, some say from inside, some say other things. It is the human identity that decides the life purpose for the human being and not the consciousness for most all people. The humanity identity is controlled by everything outside of itself, programing, their involvement with society, friends and family, its creates beliefs from all these things, it has desires of the flesh for material things and pleasures therefore the identity chooses what it thinks will fulfill itself as far as a life purpose goes, and that is all good and well for the identity. but If and when one becomes self realized, then none of that can exist, because none of those are now in control of the destiny of the consciousness that possesses the physical body, once consciousness has fully awakened. For the self realized being, there is no future, no past, no identity, so where does this life purpose question fit in then. It doesn't, as a self realized being one is functioning in the moment of life, without thoughts of future or past, and living what life brings before the consciousness as the observer of events, one at that point functions in a conscious, aware, present state of being. So if the being of consciousness is functioning only in the moment of life, then how can it have a life purpose, which is a planning for the future, which in reality does not exist ?

Leo has it in a video http://www.actualized.org/articles/the-grand-model-of-psychological-evolution At the yellow stage (1st stage of Tier 2) you're aware of the previous stages; no fixed beliefs, but rather integrate knowledge and experience; self-realized/ awakened (full enlightenment is not a requirement at this stage); not a conventional thinker; priority on self-actualization/ reduced neuroses and need for external stimulation; no fear of being alone/ emptiness; you adopt Being-cognition. There are more characteristics, these are just the changes I've observed in myself.

the reality of your question is this: you as the identity are not going to choose self actualization or enlightenment, your ego, programing, false beliefs, and the desires of the flesh body is not going to choose anything to disrupt that. The other part of that reality is this: it is if and when the consciousness begins to awaken that you may pursue these things. Now if that is happening in you, then you might add to the awakening by slowing down, taking time to reflect on what really is important in life, who and what you are, how you got here, what will happen when you leave, what is really important in the daily events of your life, contemplating these things opens doors to more perceptions and understanding. It is possible that the addictions of the physical body, the programing and false belief and ego can be so strong that it can resist the calling of consciousness that may be attempting to remember its true state of being. My advice to you or anyone else is this, if the voice of consciousness is calling , respond as much as you can, for continually resisting it may shut that door. There is no guarantee that everyone is going to awaken, that is a newage philosophy, and many believe that you will continue to live over and over until you get it right, but again, that is newage philosophy, there is no proof for any of that, once awakened you will discover that most of what is taught in the world has nothing to do with reality or the reality of your very own being. the number who actually becomes self realized or enlightened are very few. Most are not seeking enlightenment, they are seeking and into personal growth. The majority of topics on this site is about issues of the identity and resolving those issues, there will be no end to issues of the identity, the end game for the victors is liberation from the identity, ego, programing, false beliefs, and desires of the flesh. To do that one must become self realized, and that means becoming something other than the identity and all its failing attributes. Being self realized isnt about giving up anything, its about becoming another kind of being, and as that other being you will do what keeps you in liberation, It is entirely possible for one to finish out their existence here as a self realized being, finding happiness, joy, peace, love and living a constructive. These thing are for your consideration and contemplation, you cannot fully understand until after the experience of these things but contemplating them may open up some things for you.

I wish there was an easy answer to that but it isnt, it could be very quickly and it could take some period of time, it all hinges on you but you should see some results rather quickly at least in feeling more centered, calmer, when consciousness becomes so attached to the physical body that it thinks it is the body, it has become disassociated from its true state of being. Then it has to awaken to the reality of its true state of being after some period of time, most often after a very long time as the identity, but for you to have the interest in your personal growth that you do is a sign that the consciousness is awakening. The single most important thing that you can do now is, to take short periods of time and simply be still and be quiet and feel the presence of the life force within you, this is the key. Don't try to do this for long periods of time, keep it to fifteen to maybe thirty minutes, but really focus on the life force within. You can also spend time contemplating yourself, seeking the answer to things like, who am I really, what is this force that is keeping this body alive, how did i get here, did i exist before this body, what will happen after i leave this body, direct these questions and others toward the life force within you. It will bring changes, but the whole idea of self realization is to drop the attachment to the identity and experience the real part of yourself and that is the life force that is guiding your body and life. It is your attachment to the body that is keeping you from the experience of the self. The most simple way of regaining your true state of being is to intentionally spend time with the real you, it will cause a greater awakening. You will have to trust what you are dong, be faithful to it, and it will bring results, there will be a lot of things that try to interfere with what you are doing so the desire must be present for change to come. Believe in yourself, everything you need to succeed in life is within your own being, tap into it. There will come a time for you when you will no longer seek the teachings, philosophies and doctrine, paths, writings, of others because the master within you will be your teacher and guide. In this process be careful how you subject yourself to the ideas and beliefs of others, because most all of the people you know have not touched upon this themselves and the most they can give you is ideas and beliefs about what they think. Everything you need to self realize is right within yourself. The real master is within you, seek it, spend time with it, it will do the work for you. Save this text and read it often, I am not trying to teach you philosophies and doctrines here, i am only pointing you to the source of your own being and that is the key to self realization. Those who would hinder you in this work you may have to walk away from for period of time, because if you subject yourself to the negativity of others it will have an affect on you, when you are stronger what other people do won't bother you. You are only responsible for your own awakening, but once awakened you may be able to point friends or family in the right direction for liberation also. Set your eyes on the life force within and dont stop until you are it, functioning as a being of consciousness and not a human identity. Trust yourself, be strong, and never give up.

i have not been in pursuit of this awakening...it has been more of something that is just happening for me/ to me...however you wish to say it. i am not sure one can get to the awakened state by trying to get there, i don't know. what i do know is that once realized that it is happening, it gains momentum with no trying from me. everyday there is something new by the shedding of the old. the ego dies...and everything that it knew and held important dies with it. i tried to keep it on life support...thought i could...but...it's not working. it's dying along with everything else. here is something that one doesn't see untill one see it. here it is; Alone in Enlightenment by Howdie Mickoski Realization is a very misunderstood...I was going to write achievement, but it’s not an achievement, just a happening. It is like making a long, steep, tough climb up a mountain, only to get to the top and go, “mmmm, nice view.” Then you walk back down. That’s it, nothing special, but it revolutionizes everything. Enlightenment is the shocking realization that there is only one. Not one thing, or all is connected, just one. It sounds like a simple re-ordering of words, but the meaning of that word order is profound. Everyone has the constricting belief that enlightenment or God is over “there” somewhere and their job in life is to “find” it. The problem is that we are “here” and will always be “here” – but if enlightenment is over “there,” how can it be found? Actually enlightenment/God is also here, always was here, but what it is, is actually not what 99% of seekers really want. Seekers want the enlightenment they have been sold: being happy, important, full of love, no more problems. Like a continuous orgasmic or drug high. That is the reason they are seeking in the first place, the wished-for, blissful finish line. If anyone really understood what awakening was, no one would want it. Enlightenment is about “alone.” A true encounter with the Absolute/God reveals that no one is doing the experiencing, only the absolute revealing itself to the absolute. Nothing exists, yet there is the appearance of existence. Realization is alone (all-one). But everyone fears alone, so they run to spiritual practice, patterns, lovers, food, booze, any distraction to avoid the only true fear. The fear of no self (often called emptiness) is the fear that “I” do not exist. Fear of no self is not the fear of death, but the fear that you as a human being do not exist at all. That is where all the “spiritual groups” get caught, they are looking for what’s in it for “them” or “us.” Realization is one and alone for there is no other. Everything that tells you that you are separate from anything else falls away. Thus you are alone, with the appearance of others. The initial glimpse of this is so terrifying to ego it responds with the emotions of meaninglessness and despair. But as soon as the mind falls away, those emotions go too and all that is left is What Is, and the marvelous curiosity about the dream and what is going to happen next. Suffering is the belief in the story of me. The question is, who are you without your story? Too frightening is this thought, so everyone keeps struggling because ego wants to keep the story of “me” going. Seeking becomes the strategy to overcome this fear, for as long as there is seeking, there is a seeker. Asleep people have experiences to confirm their existence. I am good, I am bad, I am in love, I am working hard, I am eating ice cream, I am suffering. All are defined with I, but if there were no more I, then who are you? This is the question that takes us to see there is no True Self. Only false self and no self. You don’t try to improve self, you kill it to break free of the illusion of the dream state. You kill it by finding out it was never there to be killed. The trick to this is to die while alive and then see what is left. Form will still be here, but now you will no longer be a person, just look like one, but who can you tell this to? And that can make this process a lonely one at times. We can be in a room full of people and still feel alone. The deepest truth is that everything is a dream or a movie, nothing exists, not even you. Connecting and relationships are the way fictional dream characters hide the fact that nothing exists, and if anyone pulls away, the other characters (your friends and family) will do everything to pull you back into the dream to confirm with them that everything exists and has meaning. Waking up is willingly drifting into that fear to see what will happen, doing it because we can no longer stand the alternative of not doing it. The road to all of this is a most solitary thing. Even if a few people walk together for a while, each one knows that they are alone and that they cannot expect anything from the others, nor can depend on anybody. The only thing he can do is to share his path with those who accompany him, and know that accompaniment could end at any moment. So it is normal to look for silence in the mountains or forest or the desert. These periods are like a lover’s retreat, to be with his own inner silence. Silence becomes their lover. The world for the awake is a rather solitary place, and learning to be comfortable in this state takes some work because our conditioning to be social is still in strong effect for the body/mind. Once one learns to enjoy themselves just as much with a group of friends as totally alone, that is when they have reached a new plateau in their state. Most people are simply social because they are so alone and want to do anything to avoid that feeling, while awakened realize that loneliness was just the core of what they are, went into it – and now they are like with a lover whether there are people around or not. They know there is no longer an other, so they need no other to feel “connected.” Hard to explain in words. Loneliness can also affect the newly awake because it is very draining energetically to spend a lot of time around the asleep and their make believe dramas and hopes. It gets hard to play that game, and you wish simply for more time alone. There is still the appearance of other forms, so we still interact with things like we used to – it just gets very hard for the dream to trick us anymore into thinking “something” is happening with some “other person.” But still, you have to act like things are real. It may not be a real rainstorm, but you go inside if “you” don’t want to get wet.

Saarah, You wake up each morning...you have awakened. Where did you come from when you awoke this morning? Where were you in deep sleep? Unlearn all the conditioning of how to be happy. An unconditioned 5 year old child Inhabits bliss with a rubber spatula for hours. "Pee" as Ajax mentioned, question yourself as Corte has, charlie2dogs has offered help as well. Quiet the mind, the hair on your head doesn't require thoughts to grow.

"That spacious, groundless sense of being, needs to become part of our nature, to be familiar territory, and then awakening arrives by itself. The ultimate cannot belong to anyone, nor can there be someone who is awakened."

i want to offer you an idea to consider. the sole purpose of meditation is to be one with the life source within yourself, nothing more, nothing less. If your consciousness has begun to awaken, then it is giving you thoughts and ideas out of the norm, when you take those and contemplate them they expand within your own consciousness and change takes place more and more, so to be still, be quiet within and be one with the life source within yourself is the key to your own liberation, which is what consciousness is or may be seeking at some point. Your consciousness created the body you now exist in, it became lost in the identity that it thinks it is, for some an awakening begins to happen by the consciousness, Many become trapped in religious and newage nonsense, this hinders the awakening, if it is possible for you, begin to drop your belief system, examine what you believe and why, and understand that belief is never real, it only creates a prison for your mind. Begin to examine your programing that you have been programed with since birth, these two things are controlling everything that you do, think, feel, say, is it real or just something you have been taught or believe, all you have to do is just drop it, stop believing. Once thoroughly awakened belief is not an option. Truth and reality of anything can only be had within consciousness itself when functioning as a being of consciousness, your identity will never experience reality or truth, the identity can only experience programing and belief. It is not some teaching, theory, or practice, or guru that consciousness is seeking once awakened, it is seeking liberation from all that it has become entangled with.

your core values are based on the identity, its ego, and desires what do you consider an authentic life to be? Do you really think that the identity can choose to go all in enlightenment as you put it? you are the paradox, man whatever will be will be, that makes the identity and ego feel great. the real issue here is that your consciousness hasn't awakened from the dream that it created to play in.

why would an awakened being want to debate with belief systems, they dont. when you have living experience of your core being, there is nothing to debate.

hello everyone Basically from childhood i was a quiet kid and and from around high school up until college didn't really speak much was kind of lost and really shy . i did not really socialise and only had a few close friends and was isolated and probably seen as a wierd by most people. i started to realize as i was growing up that i was insecure about the way i looked, the reason why i felt insecure was that i was not getting much attention from the opposite sex and was seeing the cool kids picking up girls and talking to them and there was me chatting to a few friends and not being outgoing. i wasnt really into education most of my childhood like from 7th to 11th grade i used to always give up and never really put the effort, i would get good grades sometimes but hardly ever and was quite average on an academic level. i dont want to go really deep into my childhood but i had really bad childhood and horrible memories that i try to forget but sometimes it does creep up in to my mind but i always just attempt to brush them off. when i got to university i thought of joining the gym to bulk up as i was a really skinny guy and needed to gain some weight as i felt like i needed to improve someway to strengthen my confident and appearance . then i have my family who are really controlling as i was growing up , i did not feel like i was treated well and mentally i was not in the right place at times.As i was growing up and did not get the love i deserved as a child and my parents would tell me to get good grades and i just wasn't putting in the effort as a kid and i wasnt a violent kid however i was actually a really good kid , ive always believed in being well behaved and helping people and staying positive but i was never really getting the help that was needed mainly because ive never really opened up to anyone . So i was going through a on and off depressive state most of my life then one day my way of thinking changed i started to forget because i started to socialise in university more and was just distracted by the life of meeting new people then suddenly one day i felt a new me ( i think i was enlightened or awakened) and felt like a new born baby, this was mainly because i was getting the attention and love random people would show me, it was truly a magical experience and ive never felt so powerful in my life i would literally get approached and people would look at me and be like wow youve changed'' you look so different and happy'' etc. so then 8 to 9 months later i hit depression again and it really took a big chunk out me like this time the depression was 10 times worse then ever before, i felt like ive been deprived of true happiness. this really effected my education and had to drop out due to this depression and i just really need to find a solution. i hope someone can give me some advice on finding my self again. i do apologize for any spelling mistakes and etc

when you have no desires you will no longer be on this earth. Even those who have awakened from the dream and become self realized and are staying here for the purpose of assisting human beings, have to maintain a little desire in order to stay in the physical body,