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Well since I’ve been having Alan watts in the background of my mind I’ll give you a poor mans version of him. Hahaha. Since words only get so close to something or close to a comparisons of labels and experiences in your own mind. I’d say bliss is not a orange ?, Probably won’t make you laugh, may remind you have a drug rush, satisfies most minds for the period it’s there, at greater intensities your mind may vanish and some truths may poor through, but in general it’s more of a pleasant background that I don’t give much relevance to. But yes it’s very enjoyable non the less Unconditonal love I’ll find my video I made on it to answer. Although I could say a lot more about it still.

@Mu_ How would you describe bliss, and unconditional love?

Chakra related stuff isn’t an area I paid much attention to. It did become obvious that there’s something going on in those regions as consciousness shifted and old ideas passed but I never made much conclusions. For me despite lots and lots of bliss peace and unconditional love there wasn’t not much I’d say was coming from heart chakra areas. At a time this confused me a little because in the subconscious there was some ideas from texts that the heart area is responsible for some of this. Although even that varies.

I just wrote this in response to another thread but I think it explains her methods really well. Yes, she's a trickster. She seduces you into thinking that you're going to get sex, money and fame in the future and when you fully embrace the desire of those things, in a way that really feels like you actually have them NOW... then you realize that all you ever wanted was that feeling. And that feeling is the vortex, presence, enlightenment, love, God. It's timeless. Your future desires melt away into a present moment feeling of bliss. Also @Serotoninluv When I awakened/leveled up recently it was really painful. Physically painful. It was because I had no education about yoga or chakras. I was too busy for it, I didn't accept it. it didn't resonate with me. I paid dearly for that. Still do really.

Yes, she's a trickster. She seduces you into thinking that you're going to get sex, money and fame in the future and when you fully embrace the desire of those things, in a way that really feels like you actually have them NOW... then you realize that all you ever wanted was that feeling. And that feeling is the vortex, presence, enlightenment, love, God. It's timeless. Your future desires melt away into a present moment feeling of bliss.

@Joseph Maynor I am not sure anymore if I understand the stages correctly. There are state-stages which are stages of themselves and the growth stages of development which for me include the multiple intelligence(especially including the cognitive perspective-taking aspect) theory, including things like values which is mapped in spiral dynamics. So, I want to differentiate these two aspects. Or one could look at them as two separate structures of development. State stages are independent of structure stages, yet can be reached as a permanent, yet are interpreted through the lens of one's growth stage development. So, a blue experience of a non-dual experience would be most likely interpreted as mythic literal. God did do this to me. There is only one god he told me xyz. God gave me this book and told me to create this religion, all other religions are false, if they don't believe in one god. etc. I bet there are better examples. I can write down how it is mapped out, but the only reference point I have is the ones I chiseled for myself and the ones I am copying from the book now. Preface/Preliminary remark Vision-Logic (which includes teal and turquoise)" Not very important for those not familiar. Moral span is considered as what is deemed worthy of moral consideration. Above teal (turquoise) World view: cross-paradigmatic, developmentalism as a world process (integralism) Moral span: all humans without exception. Seeing not only hierarchies but healthy hierarchies and in total holarchies. Detects harmonics, mystical forces, pervasive flow states that permeate any organization. Unites feeling with knowledge. Universal order in a living conscious fashion instead of a blue or green external rule and group orientation. Holding up the mirror to society. Values: global order and renewal. Experiences the wholeness of experience through mind an spirit. Self-identity + What is important: Highly aware of the complexity of meaning-making, systemic interactions, and dynamic processes. Seeks personal and spiritual transformation and supports others in their life quests; creates events that become mythical and reframe the meaning of situations. may understand “ego” as a “central processing unit” that actively creates a sense of identity; increasingly sensitive to the continuous “re-storying” of who one is; may recognize ego as most serious threat to future growth; continually attend to interaction among thought, action, feeling, and perception as well as influences from and effects on individuals, institutions, history and culture; treat time and events as symbolic, analogical, metaphorical (not merely linear, digital, literal); may feel rarely understood in their complexity by others. Reframes turns inside out, upside-down, clowning, holding up a mirror to society. often works behind the scenes. Affect levels: world-centric altruism teal-centered (yellow) Integrates multiple contexts, paradigmatic. Moral span all humans without exception. (counts also for green in total, green, yellow, turquoise). Self-identity + what is important: Life is a kaleidoscope of natural hierarchies (holarchies which include heterarchies). Flexibility, spontaneity, and functionality have the highest priority. Differences and pluralities can be integrated into interdependent flows (integration and disintegration instead of association and dissociation IMO! see politics especially germans diversity of parties in context with the true "meaning" of pluralism and dissemination of power) Egalitarianism is complemented with natural degrees of excellence where appropriate. Knowledge and competence should supersede, rank, power, status or the group! (yes please). World order is a result of the existence of different levels of reality (memes) and the inevitable patterns of moving up and down the dynamic spiral. Good governance facilitates the emergence of entities through the levels of increasing complexity (nested hierarchy). Comprehends multiple interconnected systems of relationships and processes; able to deal with conflicting needs and duties in constantly shifting contexts; recognizes the need for autonomy while parts of a system are interdependent; recognizes higher principles, social construction of reality, complexity and interrelationships; problem finding not just creative problem solving; aware of paradox and contradiction in system and self; sensitive to unique market niches, historical moment, larger social movements; creates “positive-sum” games; aware of own power (and perhaps tempted by it); seeks feedback from others and environment as vital for growth and making sense of world. Affect levels: "compassion"(green), all-human love(green-yellow), world-centric altruism(yellow-tourquise) IMO or I am retarded reading the map. THIRD TIER! Psychic: (which is coral in my humble opinion and has been called indigo in the past) Characteristic: union with world process, nature mysticism, gross nature unity. Main focus: Being, non-controlling consciousness; witnessing flux of experience and states of mind. Emergence of a perspective that is ego-transcendent or universal; people holding this stage of consciousness seem to “…experience themselves and others as part of ongoing humanity, embedded in the creative ground, fulfilling the destiny of evolution” (Cook-Greuter, 2002); consciousness ceases to appear as a constraint but rather as one more phenomenon that can be foreground or background; an integration of feelings of belongingness and separateness occurs; multiple points of view can be taken effortlessly; the pattern of constant flux and change becomes the context for feeling at home; one is able to respect the essence in others, no matter how different they may be; one is in tune with their life’s work as “a simultaneous expression of their unique selves” and as part of their shared humanity. Affect levels: awe, rapture, all-species love, compassion Moral span: all earthly beings without exception Subtle: Characteristics: union with creatrix of the gross realm; deity mysticism, subtle realm unity. Moral span -> all sentient beings without exception in all realms without exception ( saintly) Affect levels: Ananda, ecstasy, love-bliss, saintly commitment. Casual: Characteristics: Union with source of manifest realms; formless mysticism Moral span -> all sentient beings without exception in all realms without exception ( saintly) including all manifest and unmanifest reality. (Self-liberation in primordial awareness). The habit of observing the self cease to observe imo. Affect levels: infinite freedom-release, boddhisattvic-compassion. Non-Dual: Characteristic: union of form and formless, Spirit and World Process, non-dual mysticism. Moral span -> all manifest and unmanifest reality. (Self-liberation in primordial awareness) Affect levels: one taste, compassion. I can or did not find more on the topic so far besides reading the traditions who actually practiced it to these levels. But, this even more complex IMO, since it then has to be abstracted towards the development of the most important lines. Cognitive, interpersonal, moral, self-identify, etc. Whatever is the most important. Hopefully, this is useful. Would love to read a summary from others. In case they found different information. Here is the link from the pdf, the rest is from the book integral psychology. https://integralwithoutborders.net/sites/default/files/resources/Overview of Developmental Levels.pdf

Yea, I didn't mean to jump in and be all "spiritually correct". I now better understand the sentiment of your question. I would say that there is a certain type of happiness a person can experience. You asked whether a person could experience "true happiness" along the path. Are you asking about a deeper true happiness than standard personal happiness most people think of. Like the happiness of getting a good job, having free time to watch movies, having a good meal etc.? I would say there is a deeper true happiness than this. Ime, I had "glimpses" of this deeper happiness - a type of peace, stillness, bliss. Yet only glimpses. Ime, "transcending" the self is necessary because it is a more expansive happiness. If I am contracted within the personality construct, happiness will be limited to within that construct. Yet when consciousness expands beyond the personality, a deeper more expansive happiness arises. Perhaps I am just using the term "transcending the personality" and you might be calling it "enlightenment". I don't mean to be a stickler on terms. The sentiment is more important. . . I would say that some type of personal transcendence is correlated with the arising of that deeper / expansive happiness. At least ime. It seems to be the case from what I read about others as well.

It's more like YOU ARE the source of the power and the ego is a toy you get to play with. Hell is a frame of mind, and this is heaven which is not the afterlife. Most actions you might perceive to be bad in this life are not, you are simply mistaken. The most evil bastards experience the same bliss as Mother Theresa in death. (Not to say there are NO fundamentally bad things) I don't think there is massive value on dwelling on the devil.

It's a challenge to find people who are in a similar space along the path since we are all at different intervals with many variations of 'path' we are taking and modern life doesn't always offer up the opportunity for mystical 'fellowship', So in the absence of deep metaphysical connections in a spiritual community setting I allow for simple interactions to express some 'bliss' with. I have some really amazingly magical moments with random people in the course of the day which carries a feeling of connectedness to the time in solitude. Transcending our own ideas and often expectations about what a spiritual 'setting' should be opens us up to it being present everywhere in every moment.

@who chit I've never heard that quote before. I like it. Good to meet you. @Serotoninluv Thank you for sharing your observations. Very helpful. It seems like I'm cycling between #2 "like seeing the most amazing sunset of your life and wishing someone could appreciate and share it's beauty with me" and #3 "stillness, peace, bliss, nothingness" though #3 only seems to happen for me when I'm in solitude. I'll keep practicing. Good to meet you. @Nahm You're right. The word "alone" is part of the problem. Thank you for pointing out that block. Those are great suggestions and I appreciate the offer. I may take you up on that. I feel like I have come to the right place on this forum. Good to meet you.

@Javfly33 "Is enlightment the only way to escape from being chained to states of mind?" I suppose people have different definitions and concepts of "enlightenment", yet the closest I could come is just an ISness. It would be like asking "Is enlightenment the only way to escape from what IS?". How can what is be escaped from? This was one of the most uncomfortable direct experiences I've had. I realized I couldn't change what IS. Anything I did was ISness. Anything that happened was ISness. I was in nature and went into an insanity zone. I wanted to jump off a bridge "ISness". I was afraid I'd start screaming. ISness. Yet if I didn't scream, ISness. I could throw things and break branches. ISness. I got online to send Leo a PM for help. ISness. Anything Leo would say to me: ISness. He couldn't not be ISness. He couldn't make it stop either. If I was chained to mind states of the mind. ISness. If I was unchained from states of mind. ISness. There was no escape. Period. And it was terrifying. After about two hours there was a type of surrender to what IS. There terror turned to joy. I started laughing and singing. I pointed to ducks gleefully saying "A duck is a duck!". "Hello cloud! A cloud is a cloud!". Yet the joy and bliss was equally IS as the terror. Enlightenment just IS. It doesn't care about whether or not my personality is happy, sad, blissful or crazy. What IS will always be what IS. Even if I try to think about things differently - it's one IS or another IS. IS always IS. There is no escape. You are zero steps from enlightenment right now. With this type of awakening, the min-body body changes. The relationship with reality changes. Many mind-body's many settle down and experience life differently. The realization may relax some blocks. Or maybe not. What if someone had that realization and went insane? Or the mind-body had a nervous breakdown? It's still ISness. It's still enlightenment. There is no escape. For my mind-body, there has been a major relaxation of the mind-body. This has opened up realms of experience I've never knew existed. Now that my mind-body realizes there is no way out of ISness, it chilled out and is much better going with the flow. At the human level, a curiosity about the personality dynamics has arisen. Much of the internal personality has been deconstructed, yet not all. As well, a desire to explore body sensations and connections to energies has arisen. There is much less wanting to get "my way" or to reach "my goals", or become something or to avoid something. One insight I've had is that I'm chained until I'm not chained. And it can happen in an instant. I've sat and just observed those chains. Sometimes they just disappear. There is noone that comes in and removes them. There is no guru or spiritual text. No achievement. No getting there. It always occurs in the moment. It's there and then it's not there. It's impossible. Yet it just happened. Once the mind realizes the impossible is possible a whole new reality opens up. Currently I am working to rewire my brain. Parts of me thinks "that is impossible" or "humans won't be able to do that for hundreds of years". Yet here I am, seeing the impossible arise.

@EmptyInside Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I also live alone and can relate to the emotions / experiences you describe. I used to group all the emotions into "emptiness / loneliness", yet as I've observed body sensations, I've noticed some nuances between the emotions. 1. Generic loneliness: sometimes my mind-body gets uncomfortable, bored and discouraged being alone. The mind may think things like "why don't I have more friends? Maybe I should go out more and try to be social. Chuck and Stacey look so happy together, maybe I'd be happier if I lived with someone". 2. Then there is a deeper loneliness and a yearning to connect deeply with someone. To really open up and explore who we are and bond. To share depth of experience - not the trivial noise of the rat race of life. I've felt this more as I've gone deeper into consciousness work. There are less people I can connect with. I've searched in my area for a year and found one person I can talk to this about. This type of loneliness is more of a deep sadness. I may have a profound insight and there is no one in my life who would understand. There is a profound yearning to connect on these deeper insight levels. I've tried to bring people along, like a gf, and it doesn't work. It's sort of like seeing the most amazing sunset of your life and wishing someone could appreciate and share it's beauty with me. 3. Then there is what I would call true emptiness. The stuff buddhists, mystics and spiritualists speak of. This transcends the above two forms of loneliness. This is an absolute emptiness that comes prior to all descriptions and emotions. Some people call it stillness, peace, bliss, nothingness. This is independent of external conditions. It transcends all. It is present whether I am alone or with someone.

Lisa Cairns spoke around this issue and was deeply healing at one point to understand. There's waking up to what you are and knowing that which can have its own side psychological healing effects on ones self AND then theres the persistence of habit/body/trauma/brain-nervous system stuff which there are methods and things that can be done/learned/time put into that will heal those things which leads to less suffering, more natural states of bliss. And yes there are HUGE, lol, awakenings that can happen that heal everything in one go, and everything in between these two paragraphs (but you can't try this or any type of awakening to happen like this). To "do" or put effort in either of these forms of discovery does not equate suffering either. And yes there are those that will be very fulfilled, still have arisals of discomfort/trauma and what not and have no interest in changing and be fufilled/not-at odds with the choice. This is a really good question and more spiritual people should really understand these subtitles because many spiritual ego's are stuck as a result of this question since a lot of "ego's" are about abiding by certain rules and if its not obeyed, they are wrong or others are wrong and this generally equates to a type of contraction and suffering.

To an extent, her situation seems to be relatable. Her meditative states are like that of after tastes from enlightenment moments, which tend to not last too long, as they always talk about. When the after taste disappears, she's back to her normal ego self. Seems like there's an on and off button between her ego state to her meditative state; as if her meditation doesn't even affect her ego at all and always sees life as the same levels of torture (being the victim in life). I personally doubt that's the case. It may only be a matter of time until the ego starts to change. And if it is the case, some variety in her types of meditation might help. It feels like her type of meditation is a way to feel instant bliss than actual ego work. And if it is trauma, meditation still seems like a good solution. Me no doctor. Edit: Fk me, pretty sure i still mis understood the situation. So, the problems lies in the fact that she's not able to get into a meditative state when she shits. And the fact that she can't get to that meditative state when taking a shit, pretty much brings back her ego.

I don't think this is a unique situation. I only have two people in "real life" that I can talk nonduality and one of them is a bit unstable, so really just one person I can talk with on a regular basis. And that is after about a year of searching. . . I spent two years with nobody to talk to about it in real life. Just people online and I traveled to Peru to live in a high conscious community for a while. The question about personal identification is hard to answer. I would say about 70% of what most people consider the "person" has dissolved. For example, in the past when I went out with people, I would talk a lot about me and my story with an underlying intent to serve self needs - to look good, get approval, get the gal to like me etc. I was really immersed and identified with the story. Now, it just kinda feels like a movie I watched or a book I read. Somebody might ask where I grew up or what I do in life. It just sounds differently to me now, like I am talking about a movie character. I also don't have all the opinions and beliefs I used to have. There isn't such a desire for things to go "my way". I'm much more fluid with the flow of life. Yet, I talk about "my" story often in spiritual contexts - yet it is more like talking about a movie I watched. I tell "personal stories" as examples, because I know them best. They can be useful for human interaction and connection. Letting go of the attachment and identification was really hard for me. My mind-body experienced a lot of anxiety and fear. Especially about the unknown. Yet walking through that and letting go, is sooo much more peaceful and easy-going. Trying to protect and maintain a psychological self is sooo draining and causes so much suffering. I would say that the personality is still around in a sense. I used to think that I needed to get rid of anything "personal" and I needed to be like some empty no-self monk that was in a state of empty bliss all the time. . . That isn't my experience. My mind-body still gets grouchy. It still gets annoyed. It still experiences fear, love and sorrow. It is part of the human experience. Yet the attachment, identification and desire to meet self-needs and wants has greatly reduced. This opened up a whole new realm I never new existed. I should also probably add that my environment is pretty calm and peaceful. I have a steady job and feel financially secure. I live alone in a quiet house and neighborhood. I don't have the responsibilities of being a parent. So, in that respect it may be easier for my mind-body to relax and go with the flow. Who knows, I'm just following intuition and "winging it" at this point. . . It's just getting created out of thin air and I don't know where this train is heading. . .

There’s always more to learn experience and go through. It’s a good attitude to have in my opinion. It’s not a should or a must. But keeps one modest and open. But really it’s always the beginning and the end. The total is in all places and in all views. There isn’t a spot and there isn’t a spot where everything is not fully there. In regards if there is emotional mastery or permentant bliss embodiments, I don’t see why not. Anything’s possible. But if you go out seeking and always frustrated that this has not been reached, your in for some unsatisfaction along that destination most likely.

In order for us to grow we have to deal with the pain, face and transcend our fears, experience suffering/darkness. You cannot skip all of this and be in eternal bliss/freedom/light. If i didn't go through all the darkness i went through i wouldn't be where i am today. The most peaceful and humble person has usually suffered far more than everyone else. You don't get to an enlightened state out of thin air. You have to face and make peace with everything you've ever done and go through and transcend all of it yourself in order to see and be the light. Why do you think most unconscious people usually have extremely challenging trips on psychedelics in the beginning then near the end of the trip they are in a peaceful/blessed out state. There is no short cuts to truth, if you never faced truth before it will be forced upon you the moment you accelerate on a higher level and in order to reside at a higher level and continue to grow you will need to transcend those lower energies patterns we usually try to run away and hide from. Hope this helps

That's merely a few hairs on the Ox's tail. You can't imagine how deep the bliss goes.

yah buddy! bliss layer is all the rage!

An epic drama has to have a villain. What's the fun otherwise? Gotta go through hell to truly appreciate harmony and bliss. EVERYONE HAS GOT TO GO THROUGH HELL.

David Spero is so real in this video, and I totally agree with regards to most teachers. When I started walking the path, I spent far too much time trying to force myself to see perfection/problems being a projection of the mind when it didn't match my experience. I've found that merely telling yourself that it's all good isn't very productive, and instead of attempting to negate suffering by some sort of focus on beyondness/bliss/ love, etc. it's better to see it for what it is and just be as honest as possible, which isn't the same as the opposite extreme of denial via spiritual bypassing in which you indulge and self-pity. Pain has been such a great teacher and its lessons in seeing what you fail to see as so direct if we only listen. It's a necessary part of the path.

Exactly! I shared because some of the things he said resonated with me, but I am one who benefited a lot of meditation to be more calm and think better. And much more. I agree a lot with what you say about peace and bliss from the personal POV and from the awareness POV.

Perhaps you are missing the bliss, the magic. Perhaps you have an idea what the bliss and magic "should" be like and are therefore missing what is right under your nose. You would need to let go of that thought story about what bliss and magic "should" be like. When one transcends the self, a whole new world arises. Beyond anything one can imagine.

Hi everybody, Sorry if this has been posted before or is being posted in wrong section. Feel free to move it around. I've been listening to Leo's lectures and various other sources. One topic that often comes up is the one of Absolute Truth, Love, Bliss etc. It is established that to reach that state often requires psychedelics, hardcore yoga, meditation etc. My question is: Why does Leo assume that the Absolute Reality of love is the true one? Why does he assume this material paradigm we live in to be 'maya' or 'not real'? Isn't it more likely that the Absolute reality is not the 'real' but an anomaly state you reach through various methods? Also, how do you know this craving for this 'absolute' state of 'perfection' is not just another devilry of ego? Perfectionist tendency of ego to be eternally happy?

It's tough guys, it really is. How can I go from having a lust for life to this. I just don't understand. I don't want to be God. I was me to be me, and you to be you. So life is precious but we make the best of it. I want us to have free will. Who created God? It just doesn't seem right. I spent the afternoon just fiddling about with some old guitars of mine. I loved playing my guitar. I love music. Now I just don't see the point. I kept just thinking why delay the inevitable. Just end it now. Where is the bliss in not exploring the world and just doing nothing? Where's the bliss in everything being the same thing? I just don't get it. I really don't.