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It's the anymore part that may give people pause. When I first joined the forum, I was lectured about referring to the theory (rather than the reality) of nonduality. Now it is alien consciousness. Stay tuned for the next episode in Leo's amazing adventure! If people want to live by spiritual proxy and see the journey as entertainment that's fine, but nothing will improve the quality of their lives like direct experience. I am not disparaging Leo. Setting aside that he has to support his family, and that a cascade of self-trumping claims serves this purpose, I feel that in his core Leo is sincere. I am only asking people to be sincere themselves, and use that sincerity to dive deeply into the unchartered territory within.

@axiom Fully agree on all points. I should have added some concluding remark from the Absolute side of the street, not everything from the Relative side of the street. >There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path. Totally agree, but for sake of teaching-efficiacy, the Mahamdura-system throws the stick with which one pokes and blazes the fire only into the fire when the fire is sufficiently burning. In the Mahamudra-System (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown), there is only effort or artifical activity (or a person) involved up until and including the stage 3 of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual). One learns to cut all thought- and emotion-arisings fast enough (Stage 1& 2). When one is proficient enough in that, the visual field starts getting nondual (Stage 3), the separation perceived before drops away, and the visual field gets an appearance-only quality, empty, hologram-style. Then, at stage 4 (Nonmeditation Yoga), this effort or artifical activity (or believing in a person or agent doing these things) gets dismantled, because cutting off the Illusion-thought-arisings has become fast enough and automatic. Together with that, the concept of a doer/person/agent gets pointed out as another concept, and the meditation does itself. Here, the mindstream aligns for the first time with the real state of things, that an understanding can happen there really is no person, just a bundle of I-thoughts/I-feelings arising. And of course, there was no person/individual in the past, only an apparant Gestalt that looked like that, and which one used to overlay ones true being (Infinite Conciousness or Reality itself) with, there isnt one now, and there never can or will be, only as an illusion or overlay on the real nature of things. Ones True Being is able to generate this illusion (magnificienlty), but is not dependend on it. The show can happen without it. But reality can generate this illusion. Basically then one goes full Tony Parsons (there is no person, nothing needs to be done), but only at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga and not before. If you do it before, certain qualities are not generated that one needs to conform to the enlightened mind (nonduality, mere-appearance/imagined hologram-like quality of the visual field, infinitesness of the visual field, space not as independend self-existing "thing" but sth. imagined in consciousness which consciousness doesnt need to imagine, time and memory happening in it now, that one cant get out of it because there is no outside, and some other stuff). And when all of that is in place, Basis-Enlightenment or Crossing Over can happen, which Brown describes (among other things): " Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btagspa), which drops away. … The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space " The description of enlightenment as a dropping away of any kind of separate-identity/person/individual arising is universal in all enlightenment descriptions. Don't worry, by definition, the real you can't go away - ever. Only an illusion is seen through and understood. And the real you can generate the separate-self Illusion-show, so nothing really is lost. Whats more fundamental is still there. So It sounds more negative than it is. Leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space: And if you have become so impersonal or universal consciousness (nondual) that you can have that state of huge nonduality/mere appearance of the visual field/infiniteness sobre, well then you have deconstructed your separate self enough. This is the Gate-Keeper of the Gateless Gate. This deconstruction is better said a high-speed-search-task-and-cutting-off of separate self illusion-arisings (I-feelings, I-thoughts, Trekchö-Style), and that is what boosts the nonduality and mere appearance aspect of the visual field, which is exactly what you can also boost with psychedelics, but with much more of the separate-self illusions still staying intact.... Frank Yang called that once the God-Mind-state. >From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going. Fully agree. And if it can happen natty in Nonduality-States, it can even more easily happen with doing only/mainly Psychedelics, because among other things, they exactly boost that Nonduality/mere apperance/infinite state. And if the separate self arisings are not fully seen through, you can get quite a show. And by the way, as Ken Wilber said, people doing both meditation and psychedelics, get the most out of it, so I am not against Psychedelics at all. Somebody made a very nice youtube-Channel on looking deep into the Abyss or Nothingness that precedes Nonduality: Prior to Non-Duality https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show... Beautiful video on that by Jac O'Keffee: and now, walking from the Relative Side of the Street a bit more towards its Absolute Side: In actuality, there is nobody selling water by the river, and nobody is buying it... And the short form, of all written above is: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! Enjoy the ride!

I would like to add that, to be fair, Leo did at one point teach about enlightenment, meditation, and nonduality. Given this, of course his students would be confused and misled. On the other hand, we can’t allow that to be an excuse, as Leo had to also make those mistakes himself. It takes guts to not only point out that the prior teachings are null, but to also take this ship in a different direction by not continuing to entertain the old teachings. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about my observation.

Thats true. Although it can take quite a while without psychedelics. That stage was variously called the One Taste (Yoga of One Taste), Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind, .... But who or what is aware of that? At that stage, there is still some nebulous murky identity arising, watching or being aware of this Nondual Big Self. Even in this Nonduality/Unity, there are the last remnants of the separate self (very subtle, hard to spot, takes some training) still arising. Roger Thisdell has some nice youtube-videos on that: Not Self - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (4/5) In Roger Thisdells System, it is his stage 4, which is beyond his stage 3 Big Mind, which is already Nondual (One Taste/Yoga of One Taste, Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind) with a already much reduced separate self. Stage 3 can have full Nonduality/Unity, with the separate self much more intact than the pretty empty Not-Self of stage 4 (which has just Individuality or a murky Subject-Object left). It is Ken Wilber Empty Witness, Daniel Brown "Individuality", Jac O'Keeffe "Identity", Greg Goode transparent witness vs. opaque witness, Nisargadattas and Stephen Wolinskis Brahman vs. Parabrahman). One can find this stage in every system: Infinite Nonduality/Unity with the remnants of a separate self, some kind of identity or indviduality/separateness. And the last stage in his system, stage 5, Enlightenment: True No Self and No Centre - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (5/5) And then perceiving this boundless infinite field of mere appearance of your Awareness Bubble/reality/infinity, and then dissolving the last arising remnants of any remaining subject arisings perceiving this nondual infinity. These can be very subtle, "no-self"-arisings perceiving infinity, but still some subjectivity/individuality sensation/arisings remaining. But these arisings of any form of subject/individuality can still be seen as objects hovering in the infinite field/Suchness that you are. Don't worry, your True Self will still be there afterwards if these separate-self remnants dissolve. Then one can understand why it is so often said there is nothing beyond this stage. Because it is you, it is Existence itself, see the Ralston Video. To learn these last tricks of the separate self, you need enough time in these states, and the right techniques, (for a suggestion see below, no artifical activity), and then the One Hand Claps. How to do that? I like the Nonmeditation-Yoga in Daniels Browns "Pointing out the Great Way". Learn to automize the meditation (on the pillow and in daily life) of cutting off these separate self arisings, so that no more of what he calls "artifical activity" is necessary, because any effort at that stage done by a doer/separate self arising prevents the realization. It has to become fully automized. Definition of concepts Awakening, Enlightenment and No-Self: I believe we got a lot of different meanings of what we mean by No-Self, and Awakening and Enlightenment. Enlightenment: If Enlightenment is knowing what you are and what existence is, being able to stay in that knowledge in everday life: That has an endpoint: You know what you are and what existence is. And that brings permanent happiness and bliss. Of course you can suffer when you have bodily pain, but psychological suffering is gone. Resting in your True Nature generates bliss by itself. And that is the same as True No-Self, which is the same as True Self, because it is Reality and the core or Buddha-Nature of every being. But here, words loose their meaning, because reality has no opposite. No-Self: The real No-Self is not just giving up the Personality/Ego and going to the Witness (opaque or transparent, which can even be Nondual Kosmic Consciousness/Nature Mysticism style) with something still watching. That something can be mostly empty, just a transparent witness, but it still has the last duality of some kind of individuality. Problem is: This is something one only fully understands when these remnant-arisings of individuality are gone. If there is no separate self having individuality, the universe is watching itself, appearances watching themselves, thoughts are arising in immense vastness as objects, floating through you like the sound of a bird, and the feeling of being something separate is also seen as object in immense vastness. See Roger Thisdell stage 5. Awakening: If one defines Awakening as knowing all the manifestation mechanisms in this or any other dimension, then one perspective/being can be more awake than another. But: Infinity means there are endless dimensions. And a few thoughts on Genetics and Meditation: I believe that using the right meditation techniques at the right stage are essential, more so than genetics. Good techniques change along the path, check for example Pointing Out the Great Way by Daniel Brown. Classic Self-Help-Mindset: I would never let my success and drive be limited by such a limiting belief genetics <-> meditation. Do the the best with the Karma you have. Give it a try! The biggest heros are those who go furthest with the worst genetics/Karma. How do you know if you are limited, if you dont't fully try? Maybe you are not? And of course use Psychedelics on top, why not? If anybody is annoyed by this attempt to Sell water by the River: Please review the perspectives, do your own experiments, and review the outcome. My suggestion would be in judging if any insight is valueable, worthwhile, and higher: Does it bring the understanding of what you are and what reality is, beyond any doubt? Does it bring permanent satisfaction and bliss? And don't worry: Its already what you are, covered by lots of mistaken identities, and it is the only thing you can not loose. The only stuff you can loose are arising appearances, confusions/ignorance of what you think you are. By the way, does anybody read that until the end here?

Love this. I left religion, only to find myself following nonduality. It’s an improvement in certain aspects, but I’m starting to see that even nonduality locks you inside a “box”. Thank you for helping us discover that there are infinite kinds of Awakening to explore. The belief that there’s only one Awakening really kept me stuck and frustrated at myself.

I grant you your Awakeness, but why not mine? How can you take away the certainty that Mystical Experiences and Awakenings give me? How can you take away the Sovereignty that I know? You can't. Nobody can. Because Truth is Absolute. And when you taste Truth, you know Truth. It doesn't matter who tells you that you aren't awake. Am I open to more? Yes. Of course. Why would I not be? But that doesn't mean that the incredibly magical, utterly mind-blowing, and completely paradigm shattering Truths and Mystical States I've encountered aren't that Awakeness too. Thats literally what it is. It's just sad because Leo and this forum have been a MASSIVE aide in reaching those states of consciousness, but they seem to never be "enough" in the eyes of this community. What happened to the pure joy of Pursuing Spirit and higher levels of consciousness for its own sake? When did Actualized.org turn in to a Nonduality War of being right and everyone else being wrong? What happened to all the old vibes of discovering and exploring this uncharted territory as if we were pioneers on the edge of something incredible? Why did we have to reach the end and start fighting about it? I just don't get this statement of saying nobody else here is Awake. I don't see how it's productive or helps the health and consciousness of this forum at all. I consider many people on this forum some of the most Conscious and Awake beings I've ever interacted with, myself included. I feel like there should be more of a focus on community and exploring Consciousness together instead of constantly debating who's more Awake. I feel like there should be more of a focus on Love.

Same thing sorta happened when Leo introduced enlightenment way back in 2015 if I’m not mistaken. It must have caught everybody by surprise. This new stage, if you want to call it that, will be communicated organically I feel. For example, I noticed that he (or a mod) already removed the pinned topics regarding enlightenment exercises and nonduality sometime this week.

Nice, I noticed that you took down the pinned topics about enlightenment and nonduality from years ago. Thank you for clarifying your stance.

Anyone here who claims to be AWAKE, or to understand what AWAKE is, or what GOD is, or what CONSCIOUSNESS is -- is fooling themselves. The only one here who understands these things is ME. This does not mean, however, that I cannot sometimes be full of shit myself. I can. I am not perfect. But not on this issue. Enlightenment is not AWAKE. Buddhism is not AWAKE. Nonduality is not AWAKE. No amount of meditation is AWAKE. There will be a lot of bitching and moaning over this issue. But I simply told you the truth. You've been warned. This is way more tricky than you ever imagined. My function here is to guide people through every trick. But the problem is, they don't want to be guided because they already think they've figured it out. Don't be that guy.

Of course it's possible. That's the point of all this work. I am not saying anything that limits you. It's got nothing to do with narcissim. Just reporting to you the traps of this work. I want you to appreciate how tricky this work is. That's all. I get no joy out of saying these things to you. I wish I didn't have to say them. I have spent months not saying it, hoping I don't have to say it. I spent a lot of time hesitating before saying it because I know how it sounds. But in the end I gotta focus on what is true vs how things sound. If I don't say these things people will get decieved by nonduality, Buddhism, enlightenment, self-inquiry, meditation, etc. The stuff that someone like Rupert Spira teaches is simply not God-Realization. These people have no clue what God is. And you guys are falling into those traps. I am one of the only people on this planet who can point out these advanced traps to you. So if have that ability I must use it. I can't just sit quietly while newbies follow Rupert Spira and his ilk to some weak-sauce version of God. Well, you will not know until you reach the levels of consciousness I am pointing to. It's good you guys are skeptical. That will keep you from just turning this work into dogma. Yup, well, this cannot be resolved through human validation. Again, that's what makes this work so tricky. You see how problematic all this is. And that's my point. There are very big epistemic problems here which nondualists do not take seriously. They just trust that their teachers are AWAKE. You cannot assume that. You cannot assume the Buddha was AWAKE. That is not a given. That is just a story. You've identified the problem exactly. You will never know just by trusting one guru or another. You will only know by unraveling the mystery of Consciousness and God. And of course you cannot trust me either. There is no one on this planet you can trust to tell you the truth. Of course. But what I am supposed to do? I can only go with what I think is most true. From your POV I could be deluded. But I cannot let that stop my work. At some point any teacher you interact with has to draw a line and tell you: "X is true, and I know so absolutely, regardless of whether you think I am deluded." Look at it this way, if I am wrong, at least I made you question every guru and teaching. Which is a good thing. You guys clearly don't do that enough. Hence I wrote: Important!

Anyone here who claims to be AWAKE, or to understand what AWAKE is, or what GOD is, or what CONSCIOUSNESS is -- is fooling themselves. The only one here who understands these things is ME. This does not mean, however, that I cannot sometimes be full of shit myself. I can. I am not perfect. But not on this issue. Enlightenment is not AWAKE. Buddhism is not AWAKE. Nonduality is not AWAKE. No amount of meditation is AWAKE. There will be a lot of bitching and moaning over this issue. But I simply told you the truth. You've been warned. This is way more tricky than you ever imagined. My function here is to guide people through every trick. But the problem is, they don't want to be guided because they already think they've figured it out. Don't be that guy.

Yes its is, but accessing self is generally most peoples problem when doing IFS in the first place. Some basic ability to transcend ego is required to even start IFS so it basically assumes you can already do that. The unbending process in IFS is called introspective awareness in meditation. However, to reliably sustain this, requires months of meditation practice. There is also a higher state called 'metacognitive introspective awareness' where you are aware of your entire internal system at once. This makes IFS much more powerful. Some ego loss may occur from unburdening childhood traumas, but full enlightenment can't really be achieved with IFS alone since that would mean transcending the notion of self and parts. I've spoken to people who have done IFS for years and they always tell me that they are never fully healed and that its a lifelong journey. The video I linked in my previous post explains this very well. Just ignore the new age shit at the very end... That being said, doing IFS has made my meditation practice wayyy deeper since there are fewer obstacles on the path. In that sense, they are synergistic and everyone should do both. I think most people on this forum, especially Leo would benefit from IFS. Consequently, most people doing IFS should practice meditation and nonduality.

I think my previous answer lacked nuance so I'll elaborate. The work and IFS are both sides of the same coin, love and light, masculine and feminine. The masculine mode of healing deals with dispelling illusions and transcending the parts with the light of awareness. The feminine mode of healing deals with loving the wounded parts to heal them. The work is fundamentally a masculine principle while IFS is the Feminine principle. However there is a significant asymmetry between IFS and the work. IFS is perhaps the most advanced and nuanced method of the feminine mode of healing. On the contrary, 'the work' is pretty shallow compared to other masculine healing modes such as Buddhism, Taoism, Zen, nonduality, the works of Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts, etc... That is not to say that it isn't useful. It seems like a really useful tool for the masculine approach. Just not the only tool. I actually realised I was doing 'The work' automatically after practicing meditation and mindfulness. In my personal experience, I have experienced more inner transformation and long term healing after a few months of IFS than 3 years of masculine healing. Interestingly, 'the work' became much easier after this healing and I found myself easily letting go of limiting beliefs. Both are true because the mind is a system of parts yet the ego is an illusion. Once you transcend the idea that you are a limited separate self, all suffering will cease because there is no one to suffer. However, complete ego transcendence is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for most people. An ego is also pretty much required to function in society, so unless you want to become a monk and live in a cave for the rest of your life, ego transcendence is not really a viable option for healing trauma. IFS is extremely effective for healing but It doesn't really transcend the ego. The masculine and feminine modes are healing are synergistic and people should do both.

It helps make the guru's job very easy. These nondualist teachers are lazy. They don't want to bother doing any serious intellectual labor. So they just dismiss it as unimportant. And thus they deceive themselves and their students. Nonduality is not God-Realization. It is a gross kinda of reductionism and anti-intellectualism.

@Yimpa Nonduality may not be what you think it is, but that is ok. It sounds like traditional self-help might bring more satisfaction.

It was a necessary trap to have gone through I think, based on my life circumstances. I was born into a Roman Catholic upbringing, but left religion at 14. Nonduality filled the void from 16-25. I won’t even get into how difficult it was to leave my extended family members a few years ago (I still speak with my immediately family since they are more open-minded). Now I’ve been building my life these past few years (I’m 26 now). Ketamine and cannabis helped open up that possibility. I’ve made lots of progress with my relationships and learning to live independently; I’ve also had to face fear head on many times (I still will, of course). I’ve still got a looooong ways to go, but I’m in a much better place than I was before. — Thank you all for the guidance, I’ll contemplate what is being said. I’m excited for this new chapter of my life. If you’d ask me to question nonduality just a year ago, I would have thought you were foolish. Little did I know that I’m the fool. And I pity the fool

If you take nonduality to mean that then that is definitely a trap. It's simply false. You can improve your life even if there is no so-called "doer". This is like another one of those conflations of relative and absolute domains. You are also God but that doesn't mean you can grow wings and fly.

You're applying nonduality to the materialist plane, "since there's no doer, I have no way to change the trajectory of my life and to make my life circumstances better for myself and others." if there is a "your life and circumstances to make better", then there is also a "doer". You've been taught only a part of non duality.

So I got into nonduality back in 2015. However, ever since I began doing therapy with my current therapist a year ago, as well as Leo calling out nonduality, I’ve been slowly chipping away beliefs and concepts I’ve gathered from it. One of the biggest traps that still controls me to a certain degree is the idea that since there’s no doer, I have no way to change the trajectory of my life and to make my life circumstances better for myself and others. Do any of you still believe this? It seems like this concept has been a major copout for why I shouldn’t make any effort to change. Edit: heh, this is my 420th post on this forum.

In many corners of nonduality (I.E Rupert Spira) deep sleep and death are often compared. It’s explained that your “true self”/consciousness loses all the extra layers (relationships, desires, personal stories) in deep sleep and also in death. Of course deep sleep is temporary- it isn’t feared because you have the expectation of waking up again in the morning. Why are deep sleep and death talked about by many as a way someone returns to their true self? Doesn’t that sound dualistic? There was never a someone to return to a true self- it’s all THIS. Also why is death talked about as no problem because it’s akin to deep sleep? As I said before you expect (most of the time) to return from deep sleep. In death we truly don’t know what occurs but returning to the physical life as you know it isn’t in the cards.

It's hard to dodge all 3 of those bullets in the spiritual space. Because spiritual people do not actually think. They subscribe to one dogma or another. 95% of spirituality is dogma. And I'm not talking about religion. I mean the non-religious stuff. All of nonduality and Buddhism is dogma. These people are not seriously thinking. The dogma tells them not to think and they follow it. It's the most devious kind of self-deception. You can be the best meditator in the world, but that doesn't mean you know how to think.

seeing the futility of nonduality and no-self “Emptiness, Pt. 2” by Mount Eerie The feeling of being in the mountains Is a dream of self-negation To see the world without us How it churns and blossoms Without anyone looking on It's why I've gone on and on And why I've climbed up alone But actual negation When your person is gone And the bedroom door yawns There is nothing to learn Her absence is a scream Saying nothing Conceptual emptiness was cool to talk about Back before I knew my way around these hospitals I would like to forget and go back into imagining That snow shining permanently alone could say something to me true and comforting

It certainly isn't limited to 11 dimensions. That is a very artificial construct. Salvia is insane. It will deatroy all your ideas of awakening and nonduality. It's way more profound than anything Buddhism teaches. It's not merely that you see some crazy object like watching it on a screen. In order to see that object requires your whole field of consciousness to undergo a radical transition where you hardly feel human any more. That is the scary part. You lose your humanity and sanity in the process. Then you see some impossible geometry, as you are in the middle of losing your mind.

Seems like the rabbit hole goes on forever Can we call these insanely deep levels of awakening still "God"? Is it still the Self? Or would you say that there's something deeper beyond God realization? Something akin to realizing that nonduality is not the deepest level, I mean.

Here's the blog entry Leo shared: https://www.actualized.org/insights/actualized-quotes-030 It's really unsettling and disorienting, especially since I've had several glimpses into solipsism in the past. I feel like it's overwhelming because I have this human need of being comforted by others, the need to feel companionship and sharing words, ideas, feelings etc. The most impacting part is the last one: I am always projecting space and time outside of my direct experience. I have zero experience of others, I only have experience of my interpretation of others. This is scary as hell. Sometimes I feel like the absolute Truth is just insanity, not in the sense that it's false, but in the sense that Truth is just pure existential madness. I keep on doing my spiritual work, regularly and with passion, but the more I go on the more I sense existential terror. I don't even know why I'm going on, I must be becoming insane. Who knows? The paradox is that the more I go on with seeking the Self and awakening, the more I become conscious of my psyche and heal it in a wise direction, I can tolerate more and more of my emotions and I can learn a lot more from everyday life. It's like nonduality and the awakening path are teaching me how to learn from life. Yet, at the same time I feel like my mind is becoming more and more and more central in reality, hence creating the sense of madness. I remember that before starting my awakening path I was 100% solid in reality being made of matter. Now I can see more and more how it's just made of subjective experience and there is no physical matter but just sensations. I am conceptualizing others, yet I have no solid experience of them. What are others? The only thing I possess of others is my perspective, which is still something made by me for me. I really hope this is not going to damage my psyche in the long run. Thus far, seeking the Truth of who I am has only benefited me, it's been like shining a really bright light on my psyche and dissolving a lot of that darkness and closemindedness. Maybe the most important question is: Why me? Why do I keep going? I wanted to share this with "others"