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@Max_V The ego wants enlightenment, yet as it slowly moves towards it it realizes that it’s its demise. It still thinks enlightenment is something that will feel good to the ego or separate self haha. It’s a suicide mission. When you take an elevator up to the highest floor of the skyscraper you look down the window and say “oh god why did I go all the way up for this?” You jump! This is just an example, please don’t do this.

@Alexandru Take ownership of your ‘suicidal thinking’ so you can then realize it for what it is, and let it go. No one is talking about physical suicide but you. One the last mindfucks, is that it is a dream, and psychedelics are in the dream, waiting until you’re ready to let go of the delusion. It’s a pradox, without direct experience, just like everything else. It initially appears that reality is real, or you, and psychedelics are just drugs which cause hallucinations. LMAO. Paradigms are funny. You could justifiably say, when I am truly ready to experience my source directly, that’s why I put the psychedelics here. Takes balls to die though. Great progress.

Hello Everyone, First off, thank you to any and all kind souls reading this right now. I would gladly appreciate your thoughts on my situation, no matter how short or long. Please comment if you can because I think I'm at my wits end, to be honest. I just have no idea what to do anymore. I don't want to make this too long, but for reference sake - I'm a lady in her mid 20's (25 basically), single, a virgin, been suffering from Depression for years now. Been in Therapy for literally the past 6 months, have chosen to NOT medicate myself (despite being asked to many times - and never had been before), been dealing with very strong feelings and emotions of suicidal thoughts. Especially the past 2 weeks (have been suicidal in general for about 4+ years). I consider myself Spiritual, not religious. I feel like I honestly have no emotional support system, other than from my own Therapist. As a Psychology student actually studying the topic of abnormal psychology recently, I had the chance to further understand where I stand in regards to my depression. I basically found out that I suffer from MDD (Major Depression Disorder) and thankfully, my Therapist said so himself on our last session (about time tbh, was a relief). He was always against labels, so hearing him confirm this was a major breakthrough for me. I have gotten to a point where, I feel like I don't care anymore. In the most neutral yet sad sense of the word. I feel like I don't care anymore about school (University/my education), about a career, about a job, about having a relationship (never had a real one), about having kids, about having a social life (have been lonely for months and lost all the love or pleasure I had in going out with my gf's, literally does nothing for me anymore). I have no motivation anymore and I don't know what to do really. My Therapist advised to me to take responsibility of my life, which I respect and understand. I feel like I know what I SHOULD do, but I just don't really care deep down when I really think about it. It's gotten so bad at times that I'm literally just laying in bed in this emotional pain that feels like white noise in my soul...like I cannot even feel my emotions anymore, I cannot even FEEL MYSELF. I just lay there, not being able to even cry or open my mouth to speak or even drink water (despite being SO thirsty). I feel like I'm losing my humanity and everything that made me...me. I feel like I had such BIG dreams about becoming a Clinical Psychologist and despite that never going to come true, I settled with wanting to become a Therapist instead. I feel like THAT sustained me for a long while, having such dreams...and yet I feel like everything fell apart. Like, no matter how big or how passionate I am about my dream, it doesn't seem to matter anymore. I can still appreciate the beauty in my dreams but feel like I'll never get there because I don't care anymore, or enough... about anything. My Therapist even told me in my last session that "you're born alone, you die alone, and everything in between...even if you're in a relationship, you're actually alone. Even if you have kids, they'll grow up and you're alone again". I was very taken aback by this but ultimately understand and believe him. I broke down in tears and couldn't stop crying, saying how could he say such things to someone who is suicidal, but he said this is the truth of life, sadly. I feel like I have so much potential to do good in school and become an awesome, professional and loving Therapist that truly cares about her job and clients and ultimately to help people in need. I feel like I had such potential to be a soul loving partner and fall in love with a possible soul mate. I feel like I had such such potential to be a Mother too. I feel more than heartbroken by all this, I feel heartbroken to my very soul. To the core of who I really am. Like such a failure in life. I have no idea what to do, I feel so empty and like there is NO solution for me. I refuse to take medication as I believe that even though it MIGHT help me function better, I still believe in my heart of heart's that it won't help with my "I don't care" problem, because let's face it - even if my concentration is better, the fact that I DON'T care, just means that I won't get things done anyway. That's at least how I feel and truly believe. It's born out of me knowing myself enough. My Therapist suggested that, me feeling like I don't care...might be born out of a sadness at the realization that no one can save me. Not my family, not the men I fell in love with, not even him as my Therapist (all his words). I think that's TRUE and I agree with him...but wonder if there might be more than that. I just WISH I could convey how deeply in despair I am by all this. No matter what I do, my heart isn't here. I keep on feeling like suicide is all I have left, in a sense. I cannot study, I don't care about everything which breaks my heart. I have absolutely no idea what the solution is and feel like there is NO solution for me at all. In all honestly, I don't know what to do anymore...even my Therapist told me that he thinks that this is bigger than I, bigger than him and talk therapy. He suggested I take medication but I refuse, like I said. I ask, with all kindness and humility, to please tell me what you think I should do...

In Obsessive Compulsive Disorder there is a branch called "existential thoughts" and also "existential anxiety". But some people assume you should think deep and find an answer. I have existential thoughts since I am 13. They all without an exclusion give me fear, discomfort, depression, demotivation and etc. I have been meditating since June. My state deteriorates day by day, I feel like being on the edge or close to it. Want to cry. Because am so fed up of it. It has been 17 years pain. Do you think I should involve in them and seek an answer or stop thinking (at least trying)? I doubt I will ever find an answer by thinking, I even doubt there is an answer. I watched Leo's video about unconditional happiness. I would say I have unconditional unhappiness and my successes and gains dont give me happiness. I feel trapped. But I also dont want to commit suicide. (That is the reason I have endured it for 17 years). But I am afraid I have limits and beyond that limit I will commit suicide if I dont get relief. I have endless questions in my mind. Should I stop seeking answers and just live and observe the life? What can I do besides meditation for raising awareness?

Osho's approach was different and unconventional. But by that approach, he was able to make more people open to him. I am just including what I posted in another thread: I was exposed to very deep teachings when I was too young. And I totally misunderstood them, until I came across Osho's books when I was about 18 or 19 years old. And he indeed was a genius. He was also probably the only teacher who has created different impressions about him on different people. One group would think of him as a dangerous, fraudulent cult leader who was as evil as devil. Another group would think of him as the greatest spiritual guru of this century. In fact, if a person reads a random page from a random book of Osho for the first time, it is very much possible that he would put that book down and hate him for the rest of his life. But after reading Osho, everything that I had learnt before made perfect sense to me. And three years after reading Osho, everything that I read from Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Eckhart Tolle and many others made perfect sense to me as well. And let me tell you what Osho did and how he taught. During his initial years, he talked about Jesus; Christians gathered around him and became his disciples. He talked about Krishna; Vaishnavas became his disciples. He talked about sufis; many muslims became his disciples. He talked about yoga; and many people who were inclined towards yoga became his disciples. He did that for every tradition for many years. Then suddenly one day he stopped giving public talks. So much illegal things happened during two years when he was in public silence. Many people committed crimes and many people left. After two years he started to talk again. And his talks were so different this time. Do you know what he said? He said that he couldn't talk directly to people because each person was conditioned according to his own tradition. Nobody listened when he started to talk the first time. So, he went their way and started talking about their traditions. People were attracted. Once he found enough people to pass his teachings to next generation, he wanted to get rid of unwanted people. So, he went silent for two years. Many people left as he expected. He then started criticizing about everyone, including Jesus, Krishna and even Buddha. It is a trick again. But this time no one left! And he could teach them directly and bluntly. This way, he appealed to many people and he also busted many myths. I will talk more about him when I find time. The only way to show my gratitude towards Osho is to keep passing the light he gave me. He saved me from suicide and I want his vision to come true.

@MarkusSweden no, true love and heaven are the biggest things of reality as far as I can imagine. and maybe even god = love. absolute truth might tell u all you need to know but also it won't really tell you how it all works really. so you will know u are god but u won't know the mystery behind the manifested creation or uncreation. how big bang started etc etc.. so what if all is dream? as long as you are being you still have something that pushes you to go on. even if you are being absolute god. even if u see all as illusion. something pushes u.... once you have absolute truth, theres no more fear, life, you, duality, death. What then that thing that really makes you to doubt killing yourself? If u realize there is no you, death, life, and all illusion. What makes u to still doubt that really? You might say you have love which will push you through life. and also higher purpose stemming from love, which is helping others (going to heavens) coz otherwise u don't really have to live right? so, if you think about it, once you have divine true love and heaven, imagine what you gonna do next? (we can speak about heaven as higher realm OR as something that can emerge on earth when humanity will evolve their bodies consciously) ok maybe deep inside you can't really settle yet unless you saved everyone else, even demons in hell. you also need to save all the aliens and any entities in the universe. there's just something pushes you to go and save them. maybe thats love n truth, maybe thats love n truth + some secret? so what is that secret? lets say you already have full enlightenment, you know you are god, you are love. but one thing u don't know is some mystical secret of how exactly you came to be. coz u can be god, buddhahood, but how it all happened really? u don't need to know that. but still something pushes u to go on living, maybe there's something which can be known. maybe its not enough to say that nothing ever happened or that its just is. so lets say you saved all of them, that will probably take infinity, and lets say you all are in the highest possible heavens now and thats the only thing left. there you will already be something other than current human or current soul then what? I guess once thats done, you will see how heavens emerges into singularity, and how you became god and created yourself and all there is, how big bang occurred, atoms occurred, how you dreamt this whole myths, how life on earth appeared, and how one cell organisms became Marcus after billion years! coz there is hero's journey which is central topic of all stories, where hero saves everyone because of love and higher purpose. hero always driven by love, salvation, purpose (immortality or gold or god or saving others) but I think this trinity together make ups something more, something bigger that pushes him to do all of that. coz purpose and saving is in future, love is in present. but what exactly kicks you in the butt to do anything and doubt just killing urself? coz sometimes u have no purpose, no love, no need to save. no fear of death.no meaning. but something still wants this whole show to go on. u commit suicide and be no more. but maybe.. u will just be born again and play it again from worse realms... think why suicide considered as the biggest sin.. u can die naturally.. but maybe u will born again.. u can escape samsara.. but buddha didn't say he will or he won't reappear, because there is no u to escape something. but infinite stream of consciousness is what u are so maybe the motive of heaven is real thing. maybe motive of merging into singularity is real thing and maybe u complete circle anyhow, u will be there in the end anyhow. its not up to u maybe! but the difference is that u can hold back or go forward. if u hold back u suffer more. if u go on then less probably. maybe thats all difference that there is. but everyone will merge into singularity anyhow. what this thing is? Maybe its that secret which cannot be known unless you complete full circle of infinity. maybe you are continuing your life only because otherwise you will stop before you became god, so nothing will be created! you have longing to understand that. if you still being you got to become that. if you no more, if you are in non-existence, void. then nothing was created really because world stopped for you. then theres no questions anyway. maybe u can just have absolute truth and escape all the non-sense of going in this endless cycles. but maybe u can't? maybe u need to make circle and u will do it, want it or not? in our case u got to make infinite circle, because you cannot settle for less if you are god. if you settle for less and have love and heavens you will see that there are more callings. these callings will push you to do more until infinity, until even satan is saved thats hercules going to olimp, he can't stop making his 12 deeds until he is god again maybe jesus did full infinite circle? thats where his knowledge stems from I can have love and heaven, I can have no fear. I still can kill myself why not, I might even see everything as illusion, so why I am still here? maybe thats why evolution of consciousness is important. it is to make a circle. and then u create the world like u want and it will have no suffering to begin with. maybe u will make up some new game or some next level and so on till infinity. it will be even better. 'u create ur own reality' goes on new lvl of understanding. sorry for that perverted imagination. but what if thats how it works. strange loop makes sense now. oh my goshhhh

@SOUL @Heart of Space Something that I want to add here.. I was exposed to very deep teachings when I was too young. And I totally misunderstood them, until I came across Osho's books when I was about 18 or 19 years old. And he indeed was a genius. He was also probably the only teacher who has created different impressions about him on different people. One group would think of him as a dangerous, fraudulent cult leader who was as evil as devil. Another group would think of him as the greatest spiritual guru of this century. In fact, if a person reads a random page from a random book of Osho for the first time, it is very much possible that he would put that book down and hate him for the rest of his life. But after reading Osho, everything that I had learnt before made perfect sense to me. And three years after reading Osho, everything that I read from Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Eckhart Tolle and many others made perfect sense to me as well. And let me tell you what Osho did and how he taught. During his initial years, he talked about Jesus; Christians gathered around him and became his disciples. He talked about Krishna; Vaishnavas became his disciples. He talked about sufis; many muslims became his disciples. He talked about yoga; and many people who were inclined towards yoga became his disciples. He did that for every tradition for many years. Then suddenly one day he stopped giving public talks. So much illegal things happened during two years when he was in public silence. Many people committed crimes and many people left. After two years he started to talk again. And his talks were so different this time. Do you know what he said? He said that he couldn't talk directly to people because each person was conditioned according to his own tradition. Nobody listened when he started to talk the first time. So, he went their way and started talking about their traditions. People were attracted. Once he found enough people to pass his teachings to next generation, he wanted to get rid of unwanted people. So, he went silent for two years. Many people left as he expected. He then started criticizing about everyone, including Jesus, Krishna and even Buddha. It is a trick again. But this time no one left! And he could teach them directly and bluntly. This way, he appealed to many people and he also busted many myths. I will talk more about him when I find time. The only way to show my gratitude towards Osho is to keep passing the light he gave me. He saved me from suicide and I want his vision to come true.

Well, it might seem rather obvious, since they find truth they can rest it and nothing rock their boat so to speak! But let us make a comparison with art. Art is also about finding God or truth. Many people become enlightened trough art not even knowing there is a concept for these experiences. However, the art world is full of mental disorders. Just the other day I was listening at a radio station that plays classical music, and covered the work of one particular composer. I don't remember the name, but he was one of the well known composers in history, just below the giants or Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. Anyway, he faced depression in many occasion throughout life, one of his depressions lasted for 5 years where he wasn't able to do anything basically. Also, those giants mentioned above, one can argue that all of them had mental disorders, at least Beethoven who would have had bi polar disorder if he lived to day. But Mozart were highly childish throughout life, had no capability to handle money and face difficulties with when life demanded responsible behaviour. Bash was probably the most sane of those mentioned here. But he had 20 children and was a social catastophe. And look at those painters. Was it Rembrandt who cut his ears of? Salvador Dali was awkward, Picasso was notorious disloyal to his wives, and he had no interests in his own children and grandchildren. Take a look at writers. Dostojevski had severe gambling addiction, Hemingway was an alcoholic and committed suicide. Stig Dagerman(most famous writer is Sweden) killed also committed suicide, so did Karin Boyd(another famous Swedish writer) Take a look at music industry. There is a club, called club 27. Some of the greatest musicians died at that age. Jimmy Hendrix(drugs), Janis Joplin(drugs), Jim Morrison(drugs), Curt Cobain(suicide) and the list goes on. But with spiritual people it's different, although there is a huge link between art and spirituality. All those we like to listening to, Mooji, Tolle, Leo, Sadhguru, Spira etcetera seem like polar opposites to the highly respected artists regarding mental stability. Coincidence?

If everything is Maya, then surely suicide accomplishes nothing (the concept of death is a part of maya, is it not?).

I'm just realizing there is so much material here, and I'm just starting, so I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive, it will be welcome if you pass me some links in that case The thing is: I am afraid of following the spiritual path; I'm no longer sure if I may incline for God or for the devil, and altough I know it is a duality, it generates terror in me to think that I could get stuck just in front of it, face to face with Nothing, without being able to trasncend it. My question: how can I do then to get to iluminate myself and not to derive to desesperation, psicosis or suicide? But I am 21 years old on the other hand, I did not finish my university studies, I am not financially independent, should I not be more focused on my ego, on art, as an artist who creates works, instead of going to meditation retreats and taking psychedelics, for a while? A little bit of context: I had a really strong trip with mushrooms; it was also an enlightment expierence. Nothing that happened me before

@Shir I've been down the stupid road before. Depression is a bunch of bull shit. I feel bad for you. I could give you a bunch of advice on what to do. But in truth, no therapist, no forum post, will likely save you. I find the depression is made up of arguments and reasons (not 100% sure). If you can find these arguments and reasons, then you can fix your depression. I find that most pessimistic arguments are full of shit. Also btw you do care. Because if you didn't care you wouldn't be here writing this post, and you would consider suicide as an escape option. You just don't feel the emotional baggage of caring.

After all what I read about him he was not narcistic at all. Society wants to put this picture on him to make him more evil. He wanted to make suicide many times in his life. He even did not wanted to be called "the fuhrer" in close circles, he just acted normal and dressed like normal when no cameras were put on him. He had a very simple life and no luxury his whole life. He had respect for every people around him and loved children. This is not fake if you see videos about him You put your version of moral over his. Moral is relative. It depends on which time you live, what circumstances you are in. In his view there was no excuse for not destroying the financial system running by jews. He recognized all the suffering in this system trough human history and he wanted to destroy it

One thing that I never understood was why bother doing literally any of it when suicide is a more expedient alternative. Its like an insight I had one day when I realized I don’t have to or need to live. It’s optional

How are you sure there is no self and everything is an illusion? Then why not to have a reckless life and commit suicide?

Ok...I was watching Leos enlightening video...then he said...you dont control your arms and stuff and you dont have free will. And my mind which is still very fragile went into full delusion mode and I again felt like I am destined to commit suicide and that nothing will change that. I tried to explain it with my mind, I tried searching in my mind for who I am and that brought me in this state again. I know I shouldnt have done it, stick to my methods of finally getting on a healthy path, and Ive been I guess, but now I feel traumatized just by my stupid mind and my reaction to the thoughts. I instantly lost all of my connection to my loved ones again. Dont we have free will in a sense of reacting to events and thoughts? I am shaking so bad at the moment. I have an identity issue, I cant identify with a self anymore, for example, I cant imagine the observer oberserving the thoughts anymore, it just doesnt work anymore, and I dont know who I am, why am I a body if I am not it and just awareness observing it? I feel very suicidal at the moment...wait I cant die anyway, can I? All I feel is the person I think I am wants to die. Maybe I went a bit too far this time. I feel like even if I recovered I would never be functioning delusional-free after this experience. Ok I really really need to know how to have a healthily working ego again, it is mentally destroying me.

In the case of a kundalini crisis this can happen. I hope you are doing better. One thing I see from your post is a lot of anxiety and panic. This can often be a bad combo with kundalini. Even legit spiritual practice and meditation can spark up a kundalini as it did me so the prior post suggesting it, just an f.y.i. it can spur it on. I never had such an experience until I began meditating. I did have some experience, however, when I had mine to know better what to expect were it to occur and to stay in a positive mindset. I also do agree to cut out new agey material and to be careful what information you listen to. Also, if you're still meditating as it said from your link I'd put the breaks on for a bit and pace yourself as it seems like you've overloaded yourself with this. Just like exercising too much your body needs a break. My head hums constantly as well like tinnitus but more hum like. It's not distracting or unpleasant or anything and it'll probably never go away but I'm ok with it. It seems like just a symptom of a nervous system that has sparked up. My whole experience with kundalini has been very pleasant with none of the more negative side effects but I think that is in large part due to me not having any amount of fear or panic throughout the experience. If I had to pinpoint anything it'd be the darker more panic stricken thoughts. Meaning no offense, but I think you gotta relax and chill a little bit. Panic and darker feelings and emotions can cause psychosis to take over and it sort of controls you rather than you controlling it. In a similar way that people can have either a good experience with things like ayahuasca or a negative experience depending upon their emotions or mental state. Maybe try more positive activities and try keeping a more positive mindset. Take it from someone who has experienced intense kundalini, being so anxious and panicked often only makes it worse and it can spur on psychosis if one is not careful. Also, try to avoid darker thoughts like suicide. I never had the thought of suicide and I seriously think that could make this a lot harder thing to go through. I'm sorry to hear you're going through this. Yes, it's bizarre, probably one of the most extreme experiences one can have, but I always viewed it as more of a natural occurrence than anything to be worried about. It's also an extremely intense experience so you're going to need to rest a little bit. I think releasing that fear and turning to a brighter mindset is a big one on this. Please try and stay positive and I really hope it does get better.

God or nothingness is there because its just there, how can it not be there? It exist and doesn't exist. It can be otherwise. And otherwise is infinite chain which boils down to that it cannot be otherwise, and cannot not to be otherwise. If you ask HOW, then you can come up with tones of explanations. Its like how rain occurs? Well you can come up with exact process, but it also has many aspects at play, and that can go ad infinitum if you wish. But if you ask WHY. The answer: its just is. And also its just isn't. lal But if you want to know about why there's this very moment. Then think why universe is the way it is. Because its the most sustainable or stable way in which it can exist. Think why earth is round and circling around sun, and sun's going around milky way galaxy. Why gravity is there as it appears to be. Coz its the most sustainable and stable way to exist. Think why universe will collapse from heat one day, because thats how things work, its the most sustainable way. And another word for stable and sustainable is good. Good in a way that allows everything to be. You might say God created world for his joy. Not good and joy in a sense that absolute infinity has special feelings like humans, but joy and good in some way which is beyond our imagination. And in the same time its within our imagination because that joy and goodness is manifested and seen in our feelings that drive us and in literally anything you see around. Why kid plays? For his joy. Why kid cries? He experiences something which doesn't allow him to have joy. Why do we survive? it feels good to survive. Why do we die? For creation to continue it needs to be changed and recreated, otherwise its unsustainable. Why we suffer? We experience something that makes us afraid and doesn't allow us to have joy, Why fear exists? So we can survive and have joy afterwards. If there's no fear, no animal would survive hence evolution would end. Why we go to work? For joy or because we think it can bring us joy. Why we fall in love? Its joy. Why lion hunts antelope? Survival feels good. Why someone's survival goes together with someone's being dead from that? Thats from our human perspective, but from absolute perspective its just how creation can be continued in the most sustainable way. Why people kill people? To survive. Or they think it can bring them joy in the end Why commit suicide? Coz there's no joy, and suicide can save you from no joy. Why hitler was the way he was? He thought its good for him, his ppl and his ideas. Why attain moksha? To escape life, don't have experience anymore so no more non-joyful things. Or because liberation from existence is more joy even compared to joyful existence. Why some ppl seek truth? Because its good for them. Why some do not seek? Because its good for them. Why ppl lie? Coz they think it will do good or they need to survive. Why live? Coz it feels good. Why don't live? Coz its better compared to life which can be non-joyful sometimes. Why we do evil to others or to ourselves? Why we cant stop doing bad even when we know its bad for us? Because our instincts or motivations or thinking that are designed to survive and they assume that its good. Or you can say its god that doing all shit to us, then god thinks its good thing to do. Why we label something as evil? because we think its good for our life to do so. Why say absolute consciosness has no reason to be? It feels truer for some hence better. Why say absolute consciousness has some good reason to be? It feels truer for some hence better. So we can say that consciosness is just is. We can also say that its just good. We can also say its all bad, and god is asshole. And why do we say that? It feels good for us to say it. It can also feel bad, and want to feel bad sometimes because its just how our survival machine works to survive. We can also say there's no meaning or good, its just silence, and we say it because it feels truer and better. Man you can't abstain from being. Language of god is silence, everything else is translation. Doesn't matter what you say or do, you always driven by infinity which has its only aim - TO BE and NOT TO BE simultaneously.

Actually you got it wrong. Life is suffering but what he meant by exiting the cycle of suffering (in this case rebirth) is to become enlightened and then when you die you aren’t reborn again. Of course this assumes that rebirth is an actual phenomenon and not just something they made up to keep people from escaping through suicide. Second, any claims of joy after enlightenment is pure speculation. We are assuming a state exists and that they reached it and didn’t just stop at something that felt good. There is something to be said about enlightenment being detachment, the only way to be happy is to ignore the hard reality we live in. While Buddha did say there is a “way out” there isn’t evidence that it’s the case. Ultimately the claims and argument of enlightenment boil down to “because I said so” and that just doesn’t fly. I can say that existence isn’t a joy after enlightenment after speaking with others who claim to reach it. Finallt Leo isn’t worth asking jack about. Ever since I saw his view on skepticism his credibility took a nose dive. Not only did he butcher pyrrhonism but selectively applies it to things that contradict him. Reading books by zen practitioners or Osho don’t prove anything, all you are getting is their view on life.

I think that largely depends on your brain chemistry and genetics (that call needs to be made on a case by case basis). Suicide is most certainly an option for certain people. Sometimes life is shit and solutions are incredibly improbable. Sometimes it won't get better. Sometimes it will. I think most humans vastly underestimate how painful life can be. But at the same time, there are genuinely people that do enjoy life as a whole (winning the genetic or upbringing lottery). I personally don't do it because of fear. It's that simple. I am also aware of how pleasant life can be when the ego gets out of the way. If I can get to the ego-less space in 10 years, I think it'll be worth the pain. On the other hand, if no progress is shown as I get older, I wouldn't be completely opposed to ending it.

As Camus wrote in the Myth of Sisyphus, committing suicide because you can't see a meaning in life is absurd since that claim implies that some absolute truth about the nature of existence is available to you. Which is false, because you are merely a human being, with all the accompanying cognitive limitations. I would comment that you're operating based on logical assumptions. But why does existence has to be logical? Human capacity for reasoning seems to be a by-product of evolution, which we use today for the oddest purposes like justifying one's existence - or suicide. If you want to alleviate suffering, you can devote your life to hardcore spiritual practice, become enlightened and live in a constant state of bliss away from society. Why not get the best of both worlds? I am not particularly interested in entering this deep and murky discourse of meaning and purpose. It would probably take years to master, and what for - to satisfy my need for logic? So that my life would be logically impeccable? I couldn't give less shit about it. I should admit, however, that looking into these things helped me clarify my position towards life. Knowing that I will die and that I want neither to kill myself nor to become a mystic/hardcore philosopher/scientist (who might believe that science will find meaning in the future, when humanity as we know it ceases to exist), I'm choosing to play the game, even though I didn't ask for it. And to get as much happiness and fulfillment as is available to me. Luckily, the problem of happiness is much more down-to-earth and can actually be solved.

Such statements are made from a position of luxury (especially from the context of modernity). As it stands the majority of the population lives in a form of poverty and illness (just look at India). Not to mention the “worth living” is a bias, as humans have a tendency to remember the good aspects of life and downplay the bad. A “life well lived” is highly subjective as to be a meaningless counterpoint to existence as a whole. One merely has to look at nature to see a constant cycle of pain and death, but also birth. Even “making life worth living” speaks to the undesirable nature of existence. One has to actually do something to make life worth it, while it takes nothing to invite pain. Even as we age the quality of life goes down as the body breaks down. Overall the score isn’t in favor of “life being worth living”. Even some animals commit suicide when the pain is too much, or through grief. Making the point about trees is moot since they can’t take their lives.

@Thanatos13 I had the same insight. Out of curiosity, I'll try to word this question as best I can, what is your intention right now? Not for this forum but your intention you feel underneath everything. In other words, what goal do you intuitively feel deep down in this moment? Edit: I'll also add.. I don't think people really answered your question. It looks like they're mostly just telling you that you lack perspective or that you're overseeing something. Maybe that's true and depending on how you want to interpret it, it can be useful. But looking at what you said, everything aside I do see where you're coming from. Actually it's where I'm coming from to, to a degree. And I'd say you're right. Living is optional. That's all there is to it. Whether you do it or not and why is a whole other can of worms. But everything beyond answering you directly seems gratuitous and an overstep. The one part of your statement I'm a bit confused about though is "suicide is a more expident alternative". To what goal do you mean by this?

shadow boxing, part 42. I'm so goddamn depressed and suicidal and angry right now. At everything. At the world. At Dad. People should be waking up, not falling for this State of the Union bullshit! GAH! Is this true? Fuck yes! Spiral dynamics? The evolution of the psyche? This is the 21st century, and there's still racism! You've gotta be fucking kidding me! Why can't people be more like me? Is this really really true? Yes. Raising consciousness is the prime directive of life, and most people are asleep to it. How do you feel and act when you believe that thought? Furious. Especially at Dad, with his petty little unconscious ego defense mechanisms. My God, wake the fuck up so I can have a decent conversation with you! You're so damn rigid! It's like I'm stepping on eggshells when I talk to you! I have to purposely close myself down and be quiet and agreeable just to please you so I can stay in your house and be a good boy so that I don't have to live out on the streets because I'm too neurotic to support myself otherwise. In other words, Dad, why don't you change your ways and get into PD so I can connect with you instead of having to go out there into the cold dark world myself in order to find my tribe and risk failure and rejection in the process? (Wow, that one's an egoic mouthful.) Sad. This world is going down the shitter. Our ways are not sustainable. We're all going to die prematurely. Nihilistic. Why even bother in a world like this? What's the point? This is a fucking zoo that I don't want to be a part of. We all spiral in and out of nothingness, with a few peak experiences but mostly suffering in between. As human beings with a separate sense of self hard-wired into the brain, we are hard-wired to suffer. We huddle in tribes to avoid the black hole in the center of our existence, adopt beliefs that limit reality and create the illusion of security, and grow like a cancer. What's one stress-free reason to keep these thoughts? I don't have to participate in any of it. I can just kill myself instead. I said stress-free. The act of suicide is very stress-inducing. None. Who would you be without these thoughts? Just someone who does my own business with no concern for those who are asleep. They'll wake up when they wake up. I'd be at peace with it. I'd go elsewhere and find people I can connect with on a deeper level. Maybe I'd admit myself to some facility so I can at least learn how to talk with people without debilitating anxiety. I'd love mom and dad and let them do their thing, while I do my thing. You secretly believe you should be waking up. Yes... I've been distracting myself a lot lately. Not being present. Cutting meditation short. Not doing the work. You secretly believe people shouldn't be more like you. No, they shouldn't. I'm a neurotic mess. I don't accept myself as I am. You secretly believe you're not sustainable. No, I'm not. I would be terrible as a father. At the rate I'm unraveling, I will die prematurely, psychologically and perhaps literally. You secretly believe people who aren't ready shouldn't be waking up. No, they shouldn't. It's a long, arduous process that takes lots of emotional labor. Not everyone is ready for it in this lifetime. You secretly believe you're a fucking zoo that you don't want to be a part of. True dat. I feel out of control, my body feels like a prison, nothing seems to work for me or with me, and I want out. You secretly believe you should wake the fuck up so you can have a decent conversation with your Dad. Yes. I'm too enamored with my own projected bullshit to actually see the soul that is my Dad. Maybe if I let go of all my anger, we could joke around like we used to. You are rigid. Yes. I'm militant about PD and spirituality. Anyone I see who supports tradition and stagnation bothers me. And yet, by holding onto my militant views about PD and spirituality and expecting people to change, I myself am being rigid. Are you willing to let people stay asleep? Are you willing to let them fall for the "State of the Union bullshit," as you call it? Yes and yes. It's too painful to stay angry. If you get triggered in the future, you'll know your work isn't done. Understood. Can you let all of this go now? Yes. I'm sorry for all the bullshit. It's all okay, love. Will you let it go? Yes.

Perhaps this is a foolish question, but isn't suicide then the fastest way to enlightenment? Not if there is a movement of becoming. That’s the point. What this word enlightenment points to is a ceasing of becoming. The psychological entity I call the me is a movment in time/thought. The self “thought” and it’s fragmentary and divisive nature within the psychological field breeds conflict and desire. Any movement of desire is a movement of thought. If desire must cease to reach this “enlightenment” then how can the pursuit in becoming bring this transformation about? Do u see this friend?

@Vlad Ropotica Be careful. If you cannot meditate in a healthy way, then just stop. Don't play games here or act macho. You need to evaluate when you've bitten off more than you can chew, and take a step back. There's nothing wrong with that. You can always resume later. Don't make this into some kind of mad dash to enlightenment. Let it happen organically. We don't want people here hurting themselves with these techniques. It gives this entire field a bad reputation and turns people off. No responsible teacher or guru would tell you to continue on your current path. You're clearly overdoing it. There is a big difference between meditating hardcore, and actually considering suicide. Hardcore meditators are NOT suicidal.