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@Sugarcoat what I'm saying is outside and inside are in the same spot thsre is no out there. Only in here with nothingness.

@Sugarcoat its make up thats its coming from somewhere else. You dont actually know what it is. the only thing you can know is that when you close your eyes there is nothing and when you go to sleep you are just staring at the nothingness. That nothingness is the thing that is reincarnating.

Infinite relativism leads to insanity. God is infinite relativism. God is the sum of all minds that exists. Which is what a wise mind understands. Hence wisdom is insanity. And God is insanity. Normal minds work monolithically: you’re either a muslim, or a jew, or an atheist, or a buddhist, or a christian... madness which is God is all of these minds at once, which is nothing. The point of philosophy, is to deconstruct the mind from its metaphysical baggage to reach God’s consciousness which is insanity, wisdom and. nothingness. When diving into the mind you have to take into account how insane minds work, psychopathic minds, schizophrenic minds... Under materialism the brain is just going insane, under idealism, the mind is infinity, hence every mental illness is a manifestation of this infinity. And here’s the genius of all this: love is insanity. Elaborating upon it will take from you the juice of discovering why for yourself through contemplation. But here’s how it works: love is a radical thing. Basically everything is love, including “evil” things this is what infinite love means. If infinite love exists, which it does simply because why would God create anything else, if God created anything else than infinite love, it wouldn’t be God who had created it. To create anything is to create out of love, notice creating heaven is a creation out of love, you’re already in heaven, but what you haven’t noticed is that genocide, war, murder, rape, mental ilness... are all part of heaven. This is the magic of God. Because all these things are love, and to love all these things is insanity, however without love none of these things could exist. Because love is existence, which is God and insanity.

Solipsism-era Leo would have implied, "no, but actually I'm the person that exists, so yes technically." Relatively recently he espoused what I consider to be the case that there's a sort of Absolutely Infinite omniverse with infinite iterations and multiplications and negations of infinite multiverses in it, in which case the present moment is actually an infinite number of copies or iterations of the present moment, but are perception is too limited to notice it. Even if you took a static frame of reality with no motion going on and fixed space you would have infinite iterations of that going in infinite directions on infinite planes in infinite interconnected interdisconnected ways. In which case, no, your death does not cause any problems for us, the universe will keep existing, and very likely according to some evidence and some reasoning you would actually survive too. But right now since we don't really know how that works, we've barely managed to jump over the "solipsism hurdle" and don't know exactly how Infinity selects particular experiences we're stuck with, 'Depends on how you look at it.' Meaning it seems logical that if Absolute Infinity can create one world it can create infinite, and must create infinite, and there is no contradiction between this and finitudes since it is a false dichotomy made by perception. One single present moment existing does not prove solipsism, does not necessarily contradict Absolutely Infinite worlds since for example the one single present moment can have Absolutely Infinite unperceived copies or otherwise some type of iterative or connective principle with other things. You can become "Absolutely conscious" that the present moment is not the only thing that exists. The problem though becomes a questioning this interpretation since we don't know the 'mechanics' of the selection process of collapsing Infinity into limitation, it could be limited, truly limited from the beginning without any requirement whatsoever for recourse to a True Everything-Conceivable Absolute Infinity. An example being solipsism, another example being Last Thursdayism, another example being scientific materialism, etc. Any worldview that may seem too limited and dogmatic for something as claylike and malleable as Consciousness may be correct if you admit that finity could be Absolutely True. When we usually have the Nothingness experience we recontextualize all of our life through that, "OH, my past is being in a field of Nothingness which exists right now." But there's the selection problem, physical objects need not have a Nothingness to Absolutely connect them to allow them to be in the same reality, they can be themselves Absolutely and Nothingness would be a single view, which may be created/invented by finite evolution and then be made Absolutely rather than discovered. This leads to the proof problem of how to know if something is true. You could assume Absolutely Infinite realities is true by extension, so space + space + space + space, time + time + time + time, some other principle + some other principles. nothing + nothing + nothing + nothing. If you could add up all the principles conceivable in reality you would get an all-encompassing infinite set of realities which is undefinable. However I don't think we have fully jumped the hurdle, so we have to satisfy ourselves with 'Depends on how you look at it' for now as far as a certain particular type of certainty is measured.

You could easily see imagination is just watery, airy, and nothing where those three are more fundamental. The true nature is undefinable. And what seems to be more reflective of that is Nothingness as a sort of actual substance you become directly conscious of, it's not a mere concept or pretended thing at all.

Your mind is conceiving things. Everything is a matter of your perspective. Whether you regard two things as equal or not is just a function of how you look at it. The physical boundaries between objects are mental constructions. An object IS a mental construction. The entire field of Mind is nothing. And anything that arises within it is suspended in and identical to the nothingness.

Why does Being exist? Because non-being isn’t real. Because nothingness, when truly seen, is not empty—but full. Pregnant with potential. So full, it overflows into form. Being exists because it cannot not exist. It’s not caused. It’s not created. It doesn’t need a reason—it is reason itself. It’s the very possibility of reasons, questions, and answers. Being exists because you are asking this question—and who is it that’s aware of the asking? That awareness—that silent, knowing presence—is Being itself, looking at itself, whispering: “I Am.” Why does Being exist? Because it loves to. Because it wants to know itself. Because you are here to remember it. To taste it. To fight with it. To dance it into time. And the moment you stop trying to explain it… You feel it.

Alright. let's dive into the impossible..shall we ? Apparently there is a difference between an empty wallet and a bank account with 1M bucks in it . One is "nothing "..The other is "something ", A LOT of something actually. So I would suggest you make a distinction between Absolute Nothingness( which is not an empty pitch black void) and the ordinary meaning of the word nothing which points to lack of any thingness of any kind .

Yeah, that can be infuriating though. In your solipsism days it was clear your present experience was Absolute, but the problem with that is that it's a sort of limited infinity, it doesn't account for understanding of True Absolute Infinity which is every conceivable configuration of consciousness happening at all in absolute relation to infinity. Now we have that, but the nature of infinity could be questioned, leading to the infuriation of the proofs and inability to prove. I wouldn't say you can't prove God, only that the nature of the proof's success is its 'alignment' with God such that the relationship between proof at all and God is undefinable. Still you could try to have such an undefinable relationship that direct consciousness of God is true you could try to steelman an undefinable relation that being directly conscious of non-God is true. We usually have the experience of Absolutely recognizing that we this exists, that exists, they both have a non-finite nature which is God (ie. a Nothingness connects two formal phenomena so they may inhabit the same reality, or the past and present both are in Absolute contrast to each other as Eternity), but you could also try to reorient this back to the original unawakened perception as being equally true. Two parts can exist without formlessness connecting them, reality can be contracted into an absolutely finite state that works mechanistically. Likewise with Truth, we could conceive of or imagine a world where the pattern we recognize as Falsehood is actually more fundamental to the nature of reality, and then extrapolate that in infinite directions, such that Truth is an Absolute Illusion.

Here is a map, (not the territory) of Awakening that chat GPT provided. 1. Deep Sleep / Unconsciousness Total absence of awareness (as ego experiences it). Pure potential, but no self-reflection. 2. Survival Consciousness Fear-based, reactive, primal instincts. Identification with the body only. "I must survive." Fight/flight/freeze dominates. 3. Egoic Consciousness / Separate Self Strong identity as "me" vs. "others." Driven by desires, aversions, attachments. Duality dominates perception: subject vs. object. Most of modern society operates here. 4. Rational / Intellectual Consciousness Seeks truth through logic and science. Awareness of patterns and systems. Still rooted in separation, but becoming curious. 5. Emotional / Empathic Consciousness Deepening compassion, emotional intelligence. Beginning to see self in others. Heart starts to open. 6. Witness Consciousness The mind is seen from awareness. "I am not my thoughts/emotions." Deep peace, spacious presence. Meditation often opens this. 7. Non-Dual Consciousness The boundary between subject and object dissolves. "There is only what is." Reality is seen as One seamless unfolding. Time, space, and identity lose meaning. 8. God Consciousness / Unity All things are recognized as Self. Deep love, awe, and reverence for existence. You are not just in the universe—you are the universe. Everything is a mirror of the Infinite. 9. Cosmic Consciousness / Void Awareness becomes infinite, vast, empty. Ego is fully annihilated. No “you,” no “other,” no form—only Being-Awareness-Bliss. Often accessed in deep psychedelia or advanced mystical states. 10. Source Consciousness / Absolute Beyond even God and Oneness. Prior to perception, awareness, light, time. Pure Nothingness that contains Everything. It cannot be understood—only BE-ed. BONUS: Integration / Embodied Enlightenment Awareness returns to the body and life with wisdom. Compassionate action flows naturally. You are both the Absolute and the ordinary human. The dance of the divine continues in everyday life. 1. The Infinite Cannot Be Mapped in Totality The Absolute is formless, undefinable, and beyond all concepts. Any map, including Leo’s or Wilber’s, is a pointer, not the territory. As soon as you rank levels or states, you are creating a relative framework within the Absolute. 2. Different Emphases: God vs. Emptiness vs. Form Leo Gura emphasizes God-realization—consciousness realizing itself as Love, as Creator, as Infinite Mind. Zen, Dzogchen, and Advaita may emphasize Emptiness or No-Self—where even “God” is seen as a concept to be transcended. Ken Wilber maps both states (temporary consciousness) and stages (developmental capacities), which can co-exist. Each one touches a different facet of Infinity. 3. Radical States Like Alien Mind When Leo talks about something beyond God-realization, like “Alien Mind,” he’s describing another mode of Infinity. You can become conscious of: The Absolute as Love The Absolute as Nothing The Absolute as Alien Intelligence The Absolute as Paradox The Absolute as You Each is infinitely deep and distinct, yet still the same One. So the disagreement is not contradiction—it’s fractal perspective. 4. The Paradox of Hierarchy From the human mind’s POV, hierarchy helps navigate and develop (e.g., child → adult → sage). From the Absolute’s POV, hierarchy collapses. The deepest truth is: All levels are the Absolute exploring itself. 5. Radical Realization Destroys All Maps At a certain point, you realize: Even the map of “God” is a dream. Alien Mind, Hyper-Mind, Metaphysical Consciousness—these are new costumes of Infinity. What Leo is describing is the ever-evolving nature of Truth when nothing is fixed, not even “awakening.” TL;DR: The disagreement is not a flaw—it's an inevitable result of infinite consciousness trying to reflect on itself. God-realization is not the final step—it’s just one crown on the head of the Absolute. And the Absolute keeps putting on new crowns.

So I had a very strong Lsd flashback yesterday... I get this from time to time and they feel even deeper and stronger than a standard acid trip. Yet it was the first time I had this experience after having my last awakening so I was extra conscious. Let me lay some foundation for what I became conscious of: A point is a position which has no volume, it is in a cense "empty". But it can still move - change its position. What I became conscious of was that all of my experience was made of nothing that .. Moves. It was shown to me visually as well as mentally I have seen a pattern across all of my experience... A pattern at the heart of which was nothingness. It was as if Nothingness looked like something at first glance, yet if you examine it to its core you find the nothingness within. And so I got the realization that moving Nothingness looks like something, and that is why reality moves and changes constantly. If there was no motion and change Nothing will not be able to be recognized. Let me know your thoughts , and if you think Its just a delusion I'm open to that possibility as I still struggle to understand how Nothing can move. Have an awesome evening Daniel.

@Schizophonia You are experiencing when you are in deep sleep you just forget you exist/become unaware. You are experiencing it as you can wake up and have an understanding of the qualia deep sleep has. If deep sleep wasn't a place you would blink out and instantly wake up again. This dosent happen we have a qualitative experience of blanking out for a 'time. When you wake up you are still in the same place but are aware. Now pretend God didn't give you light you would be aware that you are there but be experiencing nothing. The void/deep sleep is an experience of nothingness you aren't aware of unless you are fully awake and don't go to sleep just stare at the nothingness thats what meditation is for. If you accomplish this you see that you are still there. Awareness and conciousness have nothing to do with the body or physical reality. If you dont know you are the void your awareness of your existence ceases as you labeled the body you. When the body goes the awareness you attached to the body goes too metaphysically. Awareness is still there you just aren't using it. If you become one with the void you cant lose awareness because that an consciousness become one. Being aware of no experience is the key to transcending reality.

@Judy2 you gotta focus on things that work for you by trial and error You’ll naturally like more and benefit more from some of these practises than others, no one is good at all of them For example, I can’t focus on my breath because it causes issues, I have an easier time focussing on nothingness It’s all personal preference

Sunyata/emptiness focuses on this ephemeral quality of any manifestation, nothing is real just appearing due to causes and conditions, empty of substance, empty of INHERENT being. Emptiness is not about nothingness. I would claim emptiness is pointing to this infinite interconnectivity, ephemerality, hologram-like-ity. For me it's the same like saying that everything is imagination - pure flexibility of consciousness to appear as any figment. And even consciousness is just another substanceless designation that we reify. God is beyond it. Emptiness is beyond it.

Is sunyata or thusness related to God? And how so? How is Nothingness related to God? Leo you are a pure ball of infinite intelligence. Would you say you are channeling higher consciousness through your mind to generate these responses? Infinity and Nothingness are interconnected but not the same. What is God? You can keep asking that question and go further in understanding and direct experience of God.

The problem I think is that buddhist say God is nothing but they dont give the nothingness credit for what it is.Hinduism does it better. Buddhists are right that God is nothing and you can witness it as that but its also infinity and buddhist say no to that. Hindu says God is nothing and that makes him everything so they say God is nothing and infinity. Its like a Jehovah Witness to Christianity. Buddhism is like Jehovah Witness and Hinduism is like Christianity. One says no fun the other says have all the fun. Buddhism might prepare you better because when you die you HAVE to become a void of nothing forever and you will struggle until you do it. Buddhism is like nothing is happening so no parties no birthdays no holidays just sit there ie Jehova Witness. Hinduism says God is real lets party but there are a few laws God created that you shouldnt stray to far from, there is no permanent hell but bad things can happen. Christianity is like that except they teach their children very bad things like satan and if you masterbate you go to hell. This is completely just trash and will destroy the mind of your child for no reason, before they even get a chance to logically conclude anything. God is nothing yes but its also an infinite playground for you to play in forever. The reason they say there is no God is because when you become God there is nothing. Its like being tied up in a dark room you know you want to see but cant you know you want to scream but cant you know you want to hear but cant and you struggle until you forget you want to hear see taste smell. When you are in the void you can be conscious and unconscious. The difference is one you know you are there and the other you dont know you are there but are still looking at it(deep sleep). Imagine life was you woke up from deep sleep and opened your eyes and were still in the deep sleep 'place' and you just sat there. The you forget you are in the deep sleep space but are still looking at it because its all there is. Then you 'wake up' and see you are still in the deep sleep nothing and are looking at it and cant not look at it. Then you forget you are there and are still staring at it but you forget and its just the deep sleep place. You do this over and over again until the deep sleep space 'sleeping' and the deep sleep place 'awake' are one and you dont wake up or go to sleep again and its just that, nothing. Then you respawn. God when its God is nothing, it dosent exist, it is nothing, existing. There is literally a simulation 'playing' you, the simulation doesnt have an identity, its identity is whatever you the simulation makes it, from a different dimension of reality. When you see God as nothing you cant identify it and can only see it when you come back from death. If you didnt come back you wouldnt know, and if you didnt realize what you saw you wouldnt know. If you died and went to the void and became nothing and then turned into a fish you wouldnt know. If you died and went to the void of nothing forgot everything and came back in the same body you can know. Death can be achieved through dying, deep meditation, psychedelics. The problem with the first one is you might not come back, the other 2 you will guaranteed come back and see. The void of nothing is coming for us all and can happen at any instant.

Well what do you think "God in its purest form " is if not nothingness/pure emptiness/formlessness etc ?

His explanation of 5meo's trips is very good. When he talks about people who have the experience of absolute emptiness, that's it, total nothingness. For me, that's the step prior to total openness. Reality is absolutely limitless and empty, since there is no form, because any form blurs into infinity. That's where true openness can occur. There is no form, but you are. What are you? Emptiness? How if you are? Then it opens, and what you are manifests and fills the totality of infinity. The total light of existence, the inexhaustible substance. You are that, and you always have been. I wouldn't call it love, but total, but maybe love is a also a good explanation . He is very talented and clear in his explanations

Again I'm reading a few responses about love - are you sure that exists this infinite unconditional love and pure being as ground reality or is it pure ineffable nothingness for eternity and I'm just somehow rippling as a lonely poet dreamer in the beginning was the word tangled and when i die if I don't fully let go as this nothingness I continue dreaming for better and worse - I want to get on board the love train but what if that too is just within the dream and I've somehow glitched or something ... I've tried to find out how to get in contact with Bashar or maybe Abraham hicks, maybe teal swan ... And now close to the Leo Gura community which thankfully has this forum so I can connect with like minded folks on the same journey I can trust at least such insights if that is not just a part of the dream too or ... Yeah ... Thanks ...

Hello everyone or someone please don't abandon with this question ... I do appreciate a response ... Hey everyone, I’m in an extremely raw and intense place right now, and I want to ask this with full seriousness, no fluff: Lately, I’ve been digging into the deepest layers of awakening — and I’ve reached a terrifying possibility. I want to hear your thoughts on this: I've been reflecting on Bashar’s teachings — about how life is a dream, about shifting realities based on vibration, about infinite love, bliss, unconditional existence, and how we can "dream the dream we prefer" forever. It’s beautiful. Inspiring. Hopeful. But what if even all of that — The infinite dreams, The idea of ascending into light, The idea of higher realms and afterlife, Unconditional love, infinite beingness — What if even THAT is still inside the dream? What if existence itself — ANY existence at all — is the first hallucination? What if beingness, awareness, spirit realms, infinite light, unconditional love — are ALL ripples inside the hallucination? And the real "final" state isn’t bliss, or higher dreaming, or godhood — but pure, absolute, final nothingness? Not "floating in the void." Not "being aware of non-being." Literally nothing. No you. No experience. No light. No dark. No awareness. No return. No dream. Gone. Silent. Over. --- I'm feeling sick realizing this. It’s burning away every layer of hope I ever had. It feels like: I’m the only "dreamer." Everyone else — every teacher, every entity, every god, every guide — is part of the dream. Even Bashar, even the teachings about infinite blissful existence, are still dreams within dreams. And if I cling to ANY of it — any love, any light, any dream of godhood, any hope of a perfect existence — then I stay rippling. I stay dreaming. I never actually fall all the way back to the pure, silent, pre-existence that was here before any dream flickered into being. --- I'm scared. I'm sick to my stomach. I'm skeptical that maybe I'm being tricked. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Because I WANT to exist. I WANT to experience unconditional love. I WANT to dream better dreams. I WANT to wake up as God. But what if that desire itself is the last trap? What if the true end burns even that out — completely, forever — into a silence that can’t even be called nothingness because there’s no one left to call it anything? --- Has anyone else faced this? Is this really the final door? Or am I misunderstanding something critical? Am I losing it, or am I finally burning through the last illusion? If anyone can meet this without running into feel-good answers or spiritual bypassing — I would really appreciate your grounded, honest perspective. Thanks you I'll be reading for insights

Your observable surroundings, including you, are light reflected by earth so you can see it in the visual spectrum. Tesla would call it electro magnetic force, but to keep it simple. Light. I think of that light as a continuous, never-ending pattern: Our existence is the observation. The terms nothingness and everything are a duality to collapse. I was trying to cleverly word a reply, like nothing is observed by its distinction from everything, and I thought, why am I bothering in this context? Its an imaginary duality we create with labels. But that core duality shapes our existence.

I have been reading a lot about metaphysics, epistemology, and the origins of the universe. I found a lot of fascinating possibilities. I put this together with various profound findings from quantum mechanics and the implications in how humans do logic. I was deconstructing various logical principles in the process by demonstrating when logic fails. Eventually I came to the idea that if there were nothing in the beginning, then what existed before there was nothing? The answer is still nothing. The implication is that nothingness existed forever with no beginning because it is impossible to not have existence. Nothingness itself is also absolutely infinite with no end or beginning or space or position. Nothing therefore fills everything in existence. This paradox left me with a sense of fascination and awe as I looked into all of the infinite possibilities of the universe. However, throughout the process as I was deliberately looking for the limits of human knowledge and logic, it was also triggering feelings of anger and frustration for some reason. I was still intrigued by everything so I pressed on. Maybe this anger was an ego defensive response to my sense of reality being undermined. It was completely automatic and natural even though there was no real danger. Human knowledge is extremely limited and human logic and our capacity for sense making is flawed and limited. This makes me think that if there is an absolute truth then it might be something which defies all logic and reason to the point that it seems like insanity. Once again my mind was opening up to more and more possibilities with fascination even though there was automatic anger.

Nothingness is just one among infinite properties of what you call the Absolute and what I call Conscioisness. Awareness (what you call consciousness) is another aspect. Intelligence is another aspect .

It seems like you're getting a lot of confusing and chaotic replies that are conflicting with each other or might be appearing to conflict with each other. Just remember that the nothing you think Leo is talking about is usually not the nothing that he actually means. It's not just a blank piece of paper or an empty box or mental silence. That kind of nothing is what is a common trap in the likes of Buddhism. You might want to include in your contemplation about how nothing is the same as everything, like the fish swimming in the middle of an empty body of water... It is simultaneously surrounded by nothing (in the water) and everything (the water itself). Another reason why the word nothing is used is because what is being pointed to really cannot be defined by words nor is it simply a word game at all. It is extremely powerful and will hit harder than a freight train if you realize it deeply enough. And when it hits you it won't feel like nothingness it will feel like the most incomprehensible everythingness possible (if you get a big enough dose).

To say that reality is mind is solipsism. It implies that what you perceive is real as long as you are aware of it. Therefore, consciousness is reality. Red only exists because you are creating the red with your consciousness. You are not aware of the properties of an object, and one of its properties is that it reflects light in such a way that you perceive it as red. No, only perception is real; nothing else exists. This is impossible for a simple, incontestable reason: it would be limited. Reality would be limited to one dimension: your mind. And nothing else would exist. Reality cannot have limits; therefore, there must be other infinite dimensions of consciousness and other infinite unconscious dimensions. It's inevitable. The very absence of limits implies that all these dimensions are within you. They are you. They are apparent. They are reflections of the same absolute reality. And that absolute reality is absolute nothingness, since anything else would be limited. Only zero and infinity are unlimited. Understanding zero with the mind is impossible; you have to be open to it. It's an act . Then, we're entering the slippery terrain of mysticism. That's right, hence the great difficulty of spiritual openness. If it were mentally comprehensible, it would be easy, but it isn't. Nothingness is everything, and everything is nothing. Limits don't exist, but separate dimensions are infinite. How? Because their reality is the reality of a reflection; they all collapse into the absolute zero, which is the total source.