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We have to make assumptions all the time - I find the trick is to keep going back to re-evaluate them... I suppose an important question here is what you mean by 'real', when you refer to denying what is being observed as real. I cannot deny that there is a sensation. Does it definitely mean that this means there is a physical object out in a 'real world', which is a separate plane of reality from my experienced consciousness, and the sensation seen is created by electro-chemical signals in a brain, which has been stimulated by photons hitting the retinas in the back of my eye, which have come from a light source and rebounded some but not all of their visible wavelength... It's not so much denying real, it's questioning what is real, and checking how much is assumed/believed/taken for granted. In the case of seeing, I will NEVER in my life encounter that 'real' world. But it's so deeply ingrained in me that the 'real' world exists, that I don't even think about it - in fact any suggestion that things are otherwise is received as preposterous. But why? My experience is the sensation, not the 'real' world which I 'know' (read: believe) is out there... Just denying things isn't really of any use. But really recognising the foundations upon which my understanding/knowledge/belief is based, and then testing those foundations... that's an interesting game. "Duality is nonduality in a way". Interesting phrase. It ties in with something that I've been butting against recently: I keep trying to imagine some other place, plane, or experience as the ending point of the search. But of course that's not the case. It's this, here, now, so in many ways duality is nonduality. It's the same thing, the exact same thing, just seen in a critically different manner. Gateless gate

Maybe I am making assumptions but often it seems as if the nature of duality is to deny what is being observed as real. but such an approach is like taking the black shadow out of yin and yang. it is still there. duality is nonduality in a way. nonduality is duality in a way. there's not really a good way for me to explain this that I know of! isn't that curious :3 I don't know what to say. and I don't even know how to think of it. hehehe....

I guess then really the question I am asking is. why is enlightenment not just an transcendent mask of ego? losing perception of a thing is only a lack of object permanence. What really is Ego but a sense of self - and what is nonduality but a sense of self? letting go doesn't cease the existence of the object - only the attachment to it. But both the Sage who speaks his mind shows he is attached by his insistence to share it - and the Sage who holds silent shows he is attached by adhering to the principal he imagines up to explain things away. Thought is not limited to words and images and sensation. Awareness is thought too. literal being is thought, as we can experience it. Experience itself is the ego - It has been recommended to be in the moment, to be aware of the direct experience without judgement without allowing the rational mind to rationalize the experience. I do not deny the inherent meaning in such an activity - but it is like in quantum mechanics - the measurement itself changes the existence. True existence is necessarily unknowable - because knowing AKA direct experience is limiting existence to a measurable state. awareness is our most authentic tool of measuring the world around us - but measurement itself is why duality "exists" = measurement itself results from the "influence" of ego. in a certain way, "true" or however you name it - enlightenment is in ceasing to be aware altogether. we cannot escape our existence - only transcend it - and to transcend it does not leave the existence behind in any way. that existence is still there. to return to the discussion at hand - we name certain thoughts and experiences. in this way we create duality. Both in asking if he glimpsed nothingness, and in answering - we all have forced the topic to be about somethingness. Nothingness cannot be remembered - and we cannot be aware of it. There would be no experience in nothingness - and no sensory input - no awareness - no consciousness - no body and no mind. Nothing that we can imagine* can be nothingness - we can't even look at it sideways with our periphery. I am not yet familiar with the neti-neti method. but any method is not nothingness. this is not to say that we are futile to attempt to pretend to glimpse at it - but instead the intention is to reveal the practicality in releasing the need to ask if we've got it. the answer will always be no. It is only something we learn from in pursuit of, but never something we reach - and if we believe we've reached it, we are fooling ourself by means of ego. *or be

No No, we moved just before the collapse because my Dad was doing business here. So much to do, so little time. It's real. Lots of opportunity there which I don't have time to explore right now. 1) I've always been full of spiritual creativity. Maybe I earned it in a past life? I dunno. 2) That would be a whole course. 3) I believe I mentioned that in the life purpose course. I'm familiar with it, but haven't studied it deeply. Occult traditions are definitely grounded in reality, although often laden with much needless fantasy. You have to follow your heart, whatever that might mean. But regardless, do start a daily meditation practice. Don't be so black and white in your thinking. You can work on several things at once. Neither of those. Meditation is about BEING and perceiving accurately. Low consciousness pleasure pale in comparison to high consciousness pleasures. Not even close. It's sorta like asking, "Why don't you punch yourself in the face?" Because it's painful. It varies. Some weeks a lot, some weeks not at all. It doesn't matter when. You guys certainly do confuse and distract each other. But that's the nature of public discussion, so a large degree of that must be tolerated. Everyone has their own growth curve. It annoys and saddens me when people start debates about nonduality or the like, or act ideologically. I feel pity for their ignorance. Systems thinking Chaos theory Cosmology Linguistics Ecology Public policy issues Marketing & business History of West and East Physics Biology Evolution Psychology Sociology Art history Philosophy Epistemology Religious traditions Occult traditions Nutrition History of war & dictatorship Hypnosis Channeling Astral travel Mathematics, set theory, category theory, topology Other cultures Etymology Zoology, animals, naturalism Geology Paleontology Archeology Etc. When you meditate, just sit totally naturally and focus all attention on being. Don't manipulate the breathe. If you want to work on your breathing, do that separately. Meditation is about surrender. Stop manipulating so much. It really varies. Depends on my mood and level of energy and attention. Some days, lots of monkey mind. Other days, still lots of thoughts arise, but it can feel like I'm on a very low dose of mushrooms. Much progress has been made on the book, but it's all just research notes at this point. Don't hold your breath, it probably won't be released for another 5 years. It's not your typical self-help book. Get enlightened. Nothing else really matters. Of course, it's fucking TERRIBLE! Way worse than you ever, ever, ever imagined. Medication is highly ineffective at treating mental illness. It almost never addresses the true root cause, and often makes things much worse. Psychedelics are an exception. They ARE exceptionally effective when used properly. I answer this in the life purpose course. Yes 26, I think. I was too busy for sex. Wasn't a high priority for me (although I do enjoy it a lot).

@Bodhi123 Just as long as you acknowledge that YOU create all your suffering, and that you could stop creating it, then fine. You ARE creating all your suffering, including physical pain. And you can stop doing it. This requires new levels of consciousness. The Absolute level and the relative level are identical (at the Absolute level) There is absolutely no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment. But me telling you doesn't help you much. It only confuses you. Which is good, I guess, if you embrace the confusion and don't stop doing the work. If you use any of these discussions to stop doing the work, you've failed and ego has won. And if you just keep doing the work, you don't need any of these discussions, as they mostly just slow you down. Nonduality is a bitch (for duality)

@LiakosN Everyone knows about his books, so there's little use in me promoting them. I also find them watered-down nonduality. There are much better nonduality books. Although a lot of people do love his books.

@unknownworld Nonduality includes duality. Absolute Infinity subdivides in infinite ways. Universalized consciousness is individualizing and "living" through specific forms which are different creatures.

If one were to have a nondual dream, how would that be experienced? I'm confused on why dreams are only dualistic https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/about/nonduality/ By this definition, I have had multiple nondual dreams. Could be wrong, though.

Funny coincidence, I have a blog post lined up on this topic. Good example of science done right. Sophia University is one of the few holistic, transpersonal psychology programs around. Although it doesn't sound like they really grasp the full depth possible with nonduality yet. it goes way beyond brain states. The reason mystics mysticize nonduality is because they reach such extraordinary depths that the scientific realist paradigm becomes utterly untenable.

You can awaken from it permanently. To awaken from a dream is to realize it isn't real. But life will still continue because life isn't separate from nothingness. Nonduality includes duality. Of course that body/mind could kill itself or perhaps "ascend". There are many reports of people ascending. So that may be an option. But don't get ahead of yourself. Catch a glimpse of what you are first.

I was thinking man. These questions. They are implicitly nondualistic. By saying "IS there a triality" I actally refer to BEING. It's like you can't even imagine something outside of singularity/nonduality. It's impossible. Like this: is there something outside of being or not being? IS refers to being once again. Maybe once we'll have a good taste of true infinity we'll be able to have a look outside of it.

@Flow With Life Now that's Big nonduality. Good work, grasshopper!

LOL! I was just trying to have a little fun with you. My serious advice would be: Shadow work, uncovering your childhood wovs, check out other sources, many great self-help/nonduality teachers out there.. No reason to be attached to one teacher, there are plenty of others that can help you with advices that can make you Enlightened, Actualized, Happy, Rich or whatever you desire. Contemplating WHY are you feeling panickly about it.

@Markus It's rather funny because he takes these very nuanced, rather academic philosophical positions which are very easy to misinterpret and lead to huge amounts of controversy, which then gives him an opportunity to use his hyper-rational mental abilities to navigate around all the controversy and dispel much of the misunderstanding, but this takes hours of back-and-forth, and polarizes many people -- who either love him or hate him. Controversy is certainly an effective marketing strategy. Not sure if it's efficient at raising consciousness in those people who get polarized. For example, I'm not sure he's helping rid the world of Islamic fanaticism by bashing Islam and theism all the time. But that's just my opinion. He's certainly free to philosophize away. Personally, I think the best way to rid the world of fanaticism of all stripes is by discouraging people from debate, instead having them turn inward to deeply examine their desires to debate, rationalize, and take positions. By taking strong polemical positions and engaging in constant criticism, one subconsciously communicates the values which fuel fanaticism and sectarianism all over the world. In other words, in the face of hate, apply love, not more hate. My teaching style used to be more polarizing. I've been learning my lesson though and have had to move away from that style as my own consciousness rises. I don't see polarized teachings as being sustainable at the highest levels of consciousness. Because they are fundamentally dualistc. It's sorta sad for me to give up my old polarizing style. My ego likes it. It's way more fun to bash people. Oh well... another blow to the old ego I guess. The trick with highly conscious people, is that they are SO FUCKING LOVING, you cannot believe it when you see it. From the surface it appears fake or impossible. Because of that, many ordinary folks get turned off by it because it feels too sappy and lovey-dovey. It's like high consciousness has to dumb itself down to resonate with low consciousness. But high consciousness also doesn't care to dumb itself down. Which results in nonduality remaining a niche field. The paradox of consciousness: you have to possess consciousness to want to pursue consciousness.

Watch the video I recently posted in this forum about Psychedelics vs Meditation Research. The guy literally posts a graph comparing happiness levels of people having sex vs experiencing nonduality states. Hint: nonduality is far better than any sex you've ever had. If it wasn't, why would we even be talking about it? This would be a forum about porn instead.

@Leo Gura Exactly. Which is why i think its unfair to disregard him as your typical scientist. I think he has all the information and the view of the world similar to nonduality, i just dont think he's made the connection yet.

@AxelK Certainly he's not your typical scientist or rationalist. He's sort of an enigma to me. I don't fully understand why he defends rationalism so much if he's experienced nonduality. Of course the depth of the experience is very important. But also, I bet it's possible to be an enlightened rationalist crusader. Just strikes me as an odd situation. Then again, people can be very diverse creatures. And it's risky psycho-analyzing other people so this is all just speculation.

I am back - sorry. I feel bad for being confusing so I'm gonna make up for it by dumping more of my thinkings onto you! hope this is fun and not annoying do not mind if I sound like I am telling you what to do. I trust that you understand that words are just words, and the understanding you discover as inspired by your experiences is what matters. [1] of course it could be a hindrance. under-thinking is a hindrance too. finding the balance, is what will work best. there is no definite point of balance. a certain point past too much under thinking has enough of an effect to transcend your current level of consiousness on a meaningful path, and a certain point below over-thinking sees the same thing. and all points in between are where the balance is good. but the thing is - the lowest conscious person still develops over time. the highest-conscious person still develops over time. if you feel you need to take a step back from where you are, why not give it a try. [2] but what is thinking? [3] these are one and the same - the illusion of the physical world is the same illusion which contains the mind. I admit the physical world appears with more consistency - and it is true that manipulating it appears different than manipulating our thoughts. if a car hits us we get injured. but how that injury is real to us is the same as how our thoughts are real to us. So how this applies to your questions here - overthinking is nothing more than spending time with reality. It is less pragmatic - but it is just as real. In a way - the world around us is a higher level than our self - so if we want to think about the world, we can go out and manipulate it and see what happens - and we can ponder what has happened and reflect upon in curiously. these are one and the same - just the manifestation appears to differ. [4] I am in my life attempting to find out how to be more directly productive in my surroundings, and spend less time in fantasy lol. I daydream, I think and then pace and think and think and think. I watch a youtube and then watch another and another, or I post in forums until 5 hours have passed. So I am learning how to work in the real world. I guess it just takes practice and time. I guess - if you want to think so much that it takes all your day, find out how to be a mystic in a monastery with a minimal lifestyle to maximize thinking time. Or find a way to turn your time spent thinking into a sellable asset in the market. but if you don't want either of those - then work to learn how to negotiate with yourself, so that you think when it's time to think and act when it's time to act. I am going for that last option hehe.. [5] I recently heard Leo say in a video that when he speaks of the authentic self.. he isn't talking about identity. I forget what exactly he said. so I am going to explain as best I can what I currently understand of the topic. That existence is nondual infinity. and the authentic self is that nondual infinity. In our manifestation, we are finite - so we never become authentic, because authenticity is.. well, infinity. or nothingness. or God or nonduality or whatever you wanna call it. I am that, you are that, the stone is that, our belly button is that. whatever we do in the material world is That, and in this way it is OK however we choose our actions - and reconciling the meaninglessness of infinity with our existence is more or less what pursuit of the authentic self is. As we work to figure it out, we naturally become more at peace, and in being at peace we find more satisfaction in life. Right now you think a lot. work with that - we can't make a big change all at once - it's hard to quit cold turkey. Leo said in a video or maybe in a post in the "aske leo anything" thread, that he still has the monkey mind now all the time as much as before - the difference is that he responds to it on a more enlightened level. (I am paraphrasing) So to work with your thinking and searching for authenticity: experiment, and be mindful, and work to follow where intuition leads you. [6] I have constantly thought my whole life. the only time I am not thinking is when I am asleep. For me my thoughts have naturally taken the form of direct sensation, rather than sound or words... it is like I thought with touch... and so my thoughts were always very much abstract, which meant a lot of information is represented at any moment. this doesn't mean I'm more intelligent or anything I don't think - tho I have had people comment on how it seemed I spend a lot of time thinking, which well, is true, heh. the point is - I definitely "over" think. it got to a point three years ago - where I was thinking so much it was creating a massive anxiety feedback loop, and I crashed and lost everything and hid in my parent's attic doing nothing because I was too afraid to go outside. the defense mechanism? that was - listening to 3-7 streams of music at once, playing 10-hour repeat songs on youtube on multiple tabs. and playing a lot of videogames. I needed to escape my thoughts. maybe thinking is an escape method - no, it is an escape method. but - well, thinking is existence. when we touch the wall, we think it - and that is how we know it exists. so if you feel that you are thinking too much - then work to think less. but what I can say is - when thinking is too much, it will prevent you from eating enough in a day, it will prevent you from cleaning your space, and it will prevent you from succeeding at work. and there's a good chance you will be trying to escape your thoughts. if you have not reached that point - then it is your decision - think less and do more, or do less and think more. I am sure that it is going to work out fine either way - because all we need to get through this world is make sure we can eat enough to keep us alive til the end, and maintain our immediate environment so that we are safe in it. if that requires thinking - then think. if that requires doing - than do. identify your long term goals, and short term goals, they aren't always the same and often compete. we work to find out how to balance those goals - but as long as we get through properly fed and secure in our environment, then we've done a good job of it. it's our choices that determine how that journey manifests. what is authentic for us is going to happen - and searching for authenticity is only working on our self to pursue what we believe is good for us. and If you are here - then you've identified that what is good for you is self actualization. and.. suddenly I feel as if I've said nothing in this post too. hopefully that is only an illusion. well, it is, lol... sorry lol! You said you enjoy to think, so if you mean the same thing that I mean when I say I enjoy to think, and have bothered to read all the things I said, then you appreciated it. and oh! I appreciated creating these words too. OK! now I can walk away from this moment feeling satisfied with what I've shared

That's a tricky assumption, stemming from the paradigm that self and other are real solid entities. Consider this: if everything in one (as nonduality suggests), there is no separation between you and other beings. In which case, it would be possible to have a direct consciousness of what another being is. Turns out it is possible to have direct consciousness of another. Because another is you. And you're both nothing. To accomplish this feat, you'd have to have an enlightenment experience on the question of: What is another? Enlightenment has many interesting facets. More than people first suspect.

@rush It depends on what you expect from meditation. I focus on therapeutic effects of meditation, and that is what I get from it. I got a few slight tastes of nonduality and acceptance but I see that only as icing on the cake. Through meditation you pump up your mindfulness skills, you become more present. If there is anything to track progress by, this would be it. Look for them outside of meditation though, not during sessions.

There are landmines everywhere in this work. If one teaches: "Only pursue enlightenment, drop everything else." Many people will get lost, because many people are not ready for that. If one teaches: "Heal yourself. Then pursue enlightenment." Many people will get lost, because most people will get distracted and never put in the necessary focus to attain enlightenment. If one teaches: "You are already enlightened." Many people will get lost, because they will not do any work. If one teaches: "You are not enlightened. Go pursue enlightenment." Many people will get lost in seeking. No teaching is fool-proof. And the most advanced teachings especially so. All personal development work is filled with traps. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. If there were, it probably would have been found by now and there wouldn't be as much diversity as we find within the fields of personal and spiritual development. When one ignores this context, it leads to even more traps, because then one can take anyone who misuses a teaching as evidence of the teaching's failure. This is how nonduality wars get started. I see one person misuse your teaching and then condemn your teaching for it. When in fact, it's virtually impossible not to misuse these teachings, because the nature of the thing being taught is so tricky. So there needs to be latitude in your assessment of teachings, otherwise you will become an ideologue. And that is just one more landmine in this work. Try to see this whole issue from a holistic, meta-perspective: there are billions of unconscious people in the world, and most of them are not going to successfully navigate any teaching. So expect some casualties, delusion, failure, and collateral damage as people strive to become conscious. How else could it be? The only solution to unconsciousness is consciousness. All teachings and techniques are ultimately mechanical. It's the student that really has to do the heavy lifting. He must supply the consciousness.

I've recently realized that the reason that I've felt as though I already have some understanding of what enlightenment is like because I underwent depersonalization/derealization back in high school when I tried weed and began smoking regularly. According to Shinzen Young, DP/DR is like the evil twin of enlightenment. Based on the other perspectives I've seen on DP/DR, the experience is incredibly dark. It's some weird sort of "half-realized" state where the ego doesn't entirely surrender itself and the person begins to see the flimsiness of reality and the movie-like qualities of life. My own experience of it nearly destroyed my life, although I didn't know what was happening to me at the time. This makes me wonder whether guys like Jed Mckenna or Steven Norquist whose interpretation on enlightenment is much darker than guys like Echart Tolle are "wrong" in their interpretation of nonduality or if their's different forms of truth-realization or if all these people just have a mental illness. It's all quite confusing.

@Visionary You've been misunderstanding whatever you've been reading. No serious teaching tells you to drop the desire for enlightenment before you've completed it. You drop it only AT AN ADVANCED STAGE, once you've attained many breakthroughs. You're not capable of being in a state of being! That's why enlightenment is necessary. You guys are way too worried about spiritual seeking. You should be much more worried about your lack of seeking. 99% of you aren't seeking nearly hard enough. Not even close! Your efforts are so weak you got more odds of getting hit by lightening than getting deeply enlightened. The reason I say things like, "Enlightenment takes 10,000 hours" is so you understand the depth of the work and effort involved. Most people undershoot rather than overshoot. If you're using very direct methods like self-observation or mindfulness meditation, seeking is a non-issue. You can seek that way for your whole life and it will yield fruit. The problem of seeking only arises when you're seeking in totally wrong areas. Like if you think that joining your local church study group will get you enlightened. That would be a problem. Or if you think merely reading self-help books will make you enlightened. That would lead to the seeking trap. You can seek that way for 100 years and not get anywhere. But self-observation will not lead to a seeking trap, because it is the heart of the work. It is a fact that you don't know what you are yet, so you must invest time looking. The looking will not magically happen for you. If you build a deep conceptual understanding of enlightenment, you will be able to navigate all the traps. And to do that, I recommend studying a lot of diverse teachings. If you only study one teaching, I can pretty much bet that you'll fall into one trap or another. If you study 50 different nonduality teachings, you'll see all the traps and potential Zen devilries. Of course studying alone will not make you enlightened. It's only the prelude to the core work. And if you're tired of studying and what to dig deep into the core work, discipline yourself to sit down and execute the process outlined in this guide. It's extremely direct. No bullshit. In fact, the problem is, it's so direct you will come up with every excuse imaginable to avoid doing it. The first 6 months are a bitch.

I ask this because it suddenly occurred to me that I remember nothing of my deep sleep. When I am in the state of pure consciousness called sleep, though it is infinitely peaceful, I return and there is no memory: not even a passing memory as would be expected of a dream. So I ask, is pure consciousness blind to itself; does it need The Witness in the form of the organism to observe itself? In other words, does nonduality need duality to know itself?

@Prabhaker @WaveInTheOcean I think what we can gather is that there is a kind of cycling effect. At one moment, you are consciousness (nonduality) and at another you are conscious (duality) as an organism. And the goal of spiritual practice is to be both together. This goes beyond just enlightenment, which is simply a realization of your true nature. I like when Sadhguru spoke of Kriya yoga, he made it clear that the path of Kriya is for much more than just enlightenment.