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I think this, for me, has been the most complete way to talk about what the investigation into our true nature is about. Any movie can be used to illustrate this, but I am using The Pursuit of Happyness. We have the actor, Will Smith, playing the character, Chris Gardner. NOW IMAGINE During the filming of the movie, everything is going great. No concerns or anything. Plot is progressing as planned and in the script/direction. Then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Will Smith has a mental breakdown which causes him to forget that he is Will Smith and become his character Chris Gardner. This is no minor mental breakdown. It is full absolute mental transformation that he is Chris Gardner and has no idea who Will Smith is... no idea AT ALL. To keep it simple, let's assume the movie continues to be filmed (assume nobody notices that Will Smith has lost his shit) Now, as the actor Will Smith continues to film and portray the life of Chris Gardner in the movie's plot, he gets 100% emotionally attached to everything which is happening. If something fails in the movie, Will Smith feels as if it is his failure. If he can't find a place to sleep at night, Will Smith suffers from this. He has forgotten his real self (Will Smith) and become the ego (Chris Gardner). Now, let's bring in a question which is commonly seen in spiritual circles. What does Chris Gardner need to do, to realize that he is does not exist? Or when will Chris Gardner wake up to the fact and become enlightened? You see, if you have been following along thus far, you can see it is absolutely wrong to ask these questions. Chris Gardner can do nothing to escape - because he exists within the movie. It is WILL SMITH who needs to awaken. It is WILL SMITH who will become enlightened. It is WILL SMITH who all the pointers are talking to, not Chris Gardner. Just like that, your ego can do nothing to awaken, because it cannot. It is Your self which will awaken Just like Chris Gardner, the character, you the ego cannot grasp the fact that you do not exist because in your ego world with your ego story and life story, you very much do exist! Your life does not need to end or stop. Just live it from a place of deep awareness and knowing as your true higher self (will smith / awareness) With that being said, let's now imagine that Will Smith somehow magically returns and recognizes his mistake of mis-identifying with the body/mind/world of Chris Gardner. Of course, he may laugh a big joyful laughter about how silly he was to have thought he was the character Chris Gardner who is suffering in the plot of the movie. Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water. After enlightenment... Now continuing here, with Will Smith now back and "awakened" to his true nature as the character portraying the role of Chirs Gardner... nothing changes. He continues to film the rest of the movie. In that filming, where-ever there is suffering, Will Smith acts out and portray that, where-ever there is anger, Will Smith portrays that. All the while, knowing he is free from that. That is how enlightenment occurs. It is your true nature / REAL SELF which re-awakens to the fact that it was not the character (body+mind). The renaming plot of your life will play out as it needs to. There will be anger, sadness, guilt, happiness, pain, pleasure, everything... but you will be watching from the place of Will Smith knowing that he is portraying the character and is outside of the character/ego's world. You will have all those emotions but be okay with it, in your deep knowing if your true self - free from the world/reality of the ego. Notice also free will aspect. There is none. Just like in the movie - the script and acting and directing is pre-planned and that's how it will play out. So, once you awaken, what must happen, will happen as it should and will be seen to play out on it's own. Of course, this only talks about one aspect of it. The whole of it is much deeper. It's all one-thing. You are everything, literally. and that's kind of hard to illustrate using words as pointers. That's for another day (animation/graphics will assist to an extent, but again, not entirely)

You have awakened and are now enlightened to the endless conceptual 'truth' beliefs of self anointed 'enlightened masters' who point a finger at other's ideas and chastise them as 'beliefs'. Hehe

Bobby wrote: My buddhist related knowledge is fairly restricted. I have however spent years wading through much of the taoist information that is available in English (although, truth be told, the constant use of metaphor and symbolism in alchemical texts, and the various possible/Schools' interpretations, makes it quite difficult to profess any solid understanding). I'm finally posting as discussions of Actual Freedom, and the Actual Freedom website have stood out, reminding me of much of what i've read in Taoist texts through the years. Now, it could easily be the case that, Taoist texts being as vague/metaphorical as they are, I am reading in Actual Freedom concepts, but I thought it would be worth the discussion nevertheless. To start, this is a link to Chang-Po Tuan's Understanding Reality, translated by Thomas Cleary, with detailed commentary by Liu I Ming. Cleary's summary of the Complete Reality School's view of Yin Yang introduction (starting page 3). Google books: Understanding Reality (specifically 'Yin Yang' pge 3) Whilst this is definitely a brief summary by the translator, Thomas Cleary, it gives an idea of the sort of things that seemed to relate to Actual Freedom. Liu I ming's commentary in the main body of the text, is much more concerned with process. Or am I way off? Some snippets from the translator's summary of Chang Po-tuan's Understanding Reality, University of Hawaii Press ISBN 0-8248-1103-8: hi Bobby~ In terms of the title of this thread, actual freedom is the state of wallowing in complete reality right now. Complete Reality taoist teaching calls this "jumping in and floating around in the center of the compass". "Jumping in" is recognizing, realizing, acknowledging and accepting one's inherent enlightening function, and using it to adapt to conditions without relying on one's personalistic ego-reifying efforts while functioning within the context of situations unbeknownst to anyone. This Center is the immaterial incipient presence of the real body of awareness, which has no location. This "no location" is not somewhere else; it's nowhere else: it's already you before the first thought. The freedom of inherent enlightening function can only be in terms of its relative, which is conditions. Enlightening aware being is free of conditions as is, yet there is no state of separation from conditions. It is not even different than the unattributble nature of conditions (creation), — as the nature of freedom (and conditions) is itself uncreated. Complete Reality tradition exemplifies the thrust of all authentic teachings based on reality. Reality is the substance of conditions, not the trappings of conditions. Those who see reality see through the conditional and use its potential as the means to adapt impersonally to situational energy-cycles whereby they transform along with creation without experiencing Change unawares. Where does freedom come in? It's freedom from karmic momentum. Karmic momentum is psychological. It's also dependent on one's ignorance of it's nature. Freedom is awakened to its nature. It's the same nature. Freedom is the capacity and will to function in the world, the eternity of creation, all time, in partnership with creation, meaning without being subject karmically to changes wrought by circumstantial process. Therefore, the Causeless, or unchanging nature of reality is its absolute nature only for the purpose of discussion. The word(s) cannot be confused with reality itself, as there is no thing. Bobby wrote: The beauty of authentic alchemic devices is that there is nothing to understand. Therefore, it is just a way to facilitate "sneaking past" the barriers that ego has set up to maintain its arbitrary authority by the body's intellectual/emotional apparatus over the being that is going to die. This arbitrary authority's perspective is the "false" that perpetuates the illusion of separate selfhood. It's not necessarily a bad thing, yet as long as its ignorance of its real nature is maintained by an existential fear of other, the "pure" will not be accessible to the being that is going to die for the fulfillment of its enlightening purpose during its lifetime. Spiritual alchemy is using the pure from within the false by not being subject to the false: that's the relativity of freedom, in terms of Complete Reality taoism. Though we are none other than the totality of world-cycles (and beyond), who this is, is neither conditions nor their absolute nature. Who are those who actually know this, and can act on this knowledge? In taoist terms, the world is the sage. Sage is the embodiment of Suchness, the buddhist term to denote reality as is, neither conditional nor absolute. Sages, saints, buddhas, wizards, prior and present illuminates and all enlightening being(s) know the totality of the being that is going to die. This real knowledge is the potential of being, not created. Relative to unity, what is there to be free of? Enlightening beings are comprized of the Virtue of the Receptive. The world comes to them naturally. Such is the nature of the Way, which is the nature of the true self which has no self. Freedom is a relative term denoting knowing better. "Better" is a relative term too. This is not philosophy. It is a description of the functional basis of adepts of Complete Reality. That's not taoism-- taoism is just a name. Reality is inconceivable. Most people go through their entire lives as this inconceivability without ever discovering it within themselves, much less carrying out its innate enlightening function. Complete Reality taoism is a teaching of realization of primordial unity and its manifestation by subtle means through those who can act on nonpsychological awareness. Seeing reality is seeing potential. Seeing potential is the reality of nondifferentiation. Those who know the essence of conditions operate in terms of essence while in the midst of the incremental, that is, temporal existence. Freedom is knowledge and actualization of selflessness (unity) adapted to ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone which is the the purpose of enlightening being. Taoism calls those who are receptive to Virtue "real people". The Way has its Power, and those who carry it out do so without relying on their own power. This is why "the master carpenter does no cutting." I have only responded to "actual freedom relative to complete reality"~ as for the "snippets" you provided by Thomas Cleary, those are sublimely self-evident of themselves. Even so, arriving at the functional edification of the words you recognized as significant enough to include in your post, is itself the purpose of all authentic teaching. ed note: italicize "Understanding Reality" in 6th; add "The freedom of inherent enlightening function" in 16th; typo 17th; add "Freedom is the capacity and will to function" in 18th paragraph

I get you. Being an extrasensory myself I feel all the drama people "forget" and project into others. Only those who are awake enough can understand this, otherwise is just this reaction of people: "oh, but detach, but, but and but". The majority of people have no idea that they projecting their shit even if they are very very highly educated and literate. This being the reason the majority have no clue what awakening, enlightenment and what the hack I'm talking about. In the last 2 years, I feel like in The Walking Dead movie, who am I to judge?, but this is the downside of being able to read reality as it is 24/7. So Folks get awakened, I'll laugh when you do . How would you think you can detach from a neurotic? By killing, that's right, by killing the ego. But in the process, you can destroy that human being if is very fixed in that and is the only thing he/she has, and can lose the job, family etc. So it's complicated. For the awakened ones who have to bear all the shit is not easy. Leo is having nightmares, just ask him. In the end, to advance, is survival of the fittest my padawans. Because the "dead" are craving for attention even in sleep.

That's the nature of expanding consciousness, so that awareness is present in the moment even while the monkey mind is occupied with daily work. Yes, it's easier to do it with simpler tasks and as the tasks grow more complex it can happen that awareness gets distracted from presence and collapses into getting consumed by the mind's tasks. Exercising consciousness in a way that allows awareness to stay present in the moment and the monkey mind's tasking gets consumed by presence so it is lifted into an awakened expression. Instead of the monkey mind distracting away awareness from presence so it gets consumed by the veiled expression of the unawakened.

@Joseph Maynor Yes and I know there was a lot I wrote to be read lol so I understand if you didn't read it in its entirety but one of the things I mentioned was that basically ever since I hit adolescence and discovered the word "ego" I have been super cautious of it for a long time now, with ninja surveillance. Before I realized one must investigate the ego to change anything, I was almost afraid of its capabilities for a long time, which wasn't healthy either. So this is why I am concerned with some alleged Yellow or Turquoise people (who may just think they are spiritually evolved) allowing their ego to crawl through the surface again. When I see people giving quick names for themselves in anything, especially in something so advanced it just makes me question if they really put in that much work or if they just want to be on that level. This is why I am wondering when some people say they are "Yellow" or "Turquoise", what is really going on in their minds? Stage Yellow shall not be the equivalent to earning yellow badges, stars & trophies and like decorations, hanging them at the top of a tree. I wear a golden crown but not for everyone else to see. Do you see my point? When there's an over-activation of chakras, there is an imbalance there too. This is why it's been said to semi-close the chakras after you've opened them so you are not too "vulnerable" to the toxicities in the air that could tackle or swallow your vibrant energy. Like look, I'm not being hasty to put myself under these categories, even if trustworthy spiritual healers may have told me some amazing things in the past, in which they did, I recognize that whether these things are true or not, I must even question them! I don't think most people would do this. If a guru or highly experienced teacher approached you and said you were an "Old Soul" or "Extremely awakened for your age" Would you second guess or question this or would you wear it on your sleeve? Like once I was told certain things, I immediately knew I had to "keep it to myself." You feel me? I'm not the kind of person who will devalue or diminish someone else if they weren't Yellow neither will I act as though I'm any better than anyone, this goes against my nature. All I could do, would be to reflect upon it modestly & quietly.

Is the problem with 'neo-advaitas' that their dialogue is implying the world should be a certain way? By passionately exclaiming the truth to someone supposedly not awakened, are they pushing an agenda that assumes all people 'should' seek the absolute truth? I acknowledge there is an obvious reason why an individual should pursue the absolute, as there is not other true satisfaction, but am wondering if the dialogue is flawed if it implies a wide demographic should act a certain way.

Kundalini is a female energy which sits in the sacrum bone. The word 'sacrum' refers to 'container of the sacred energy' It is a very gentle, nutritious energy which has the mothering quality. And all the mothers have yoga. Here the phrase 'all the mothers' is used metaphorically. It is very a gentle and conscious energy which has the very tender timing for all beings. It raises itself spontaneously without disturbing or blurring the already existed consciousness of the being. Most of the stories told about its awakening is not related to its truth. Westerners have their 'right side' clogged aka ego balloon. Thoughts, ideas, theories are not related to this natural process whatsoever. Generally you are initiated to have your Kundalini awakened but still it is your own Ganesha principle (your root chakra's quality) which equates your external vibrations match to its readiness. From the videos below you can get your realisation. In doing so, there is nothing to br scared about. You still be exactly how you have been till now. Sit your feet parallel and apart facing the video. And to get initiated you need to ask the question of ' I want to take my self-realization ' and its your free will to ask so, no one can force you for that. After talking your self-realization, its helpful to meditate morning and evening, and put your feet into salty water preferably everyday to have better results for your ascendance. May all beings be happy.

More likely, if Leo were to become fully enlightened, my guess is the videos and his business would stop all togethers, or be sparatic. Even though it's very much helping others, the videos are part of an ego construct. After enlightenment, there is nothing to do, just be. So there'd be no point in doing all the work and research that goes into making a huge video every week. But, what do I know, I'm not enlightened/awakened.

@Sockrattes It is true that you can have this feeling of predetermination, I know what you mean, this might the gap of the distance you feel from your godly self When dormant before awakening you identify as a physical being surviving in a physical world, so you feel quite independent, you know life is dangerous and external but you feel like one being moving and adapting to this world Once you awaken, you start feeling how life has direction, how life is conscious, which may feel like a "pre-determined" presence at first, the more you enlighten, the more you will feel this gap at first, because you awakened so for the first time you really feel your connection to your divine self and you feel its will and sense of direction, because you still feel quite "split", it will feel as if life is pre-determined or bound to rules But it is you that is life, the more you awaken to your divine self, the more you can feel you are the one setting the direction and this is exactly how you wanted things to be If you start feeling that life is pre-determined it means exactly that you're getting in touch with your divine self, that is what it feels to feel the direction and the will of your divine self, at first If you stay open, the two parts will merge, and no your earthly self will not be drowned, it is not inferior, both will merge, and you will feel how you want to achieve your earthly endeavours and your divine endeavours at the same time, and somehow magically if can be done at the same time, that is what they mean by harmony with life So this feeling of pre-determination is what it feels like to reconnect and remember your identity beyond this earthly reality You can see how simple it is, pre-determined by who? There is only you! If you are determined to do something, what is it? Be interested in yourself, awaken to yourself, be open to yourself! And also your earthly self is also of infinite intelligence! If everything is made of infinite intelligence (consciousness) does it not take infinite intelligence to manifest and generate an earthly "simple" intelligence? The earthly self is definitely not inferior Using male and female energy can help clarify Then you have the earthly realm, on 'mother earth' , where everything seems deceptively simple, and primitive, the feminine aspect of nuance and subtlety, but it is just as complex as the divine realms, perhaps even more because it is less straight-forward, and requires a lot of depth to get If the heavens and hell are realms of primarly male energy, straighforward, in one realm you're happy in the other you suffer, you get what you see, then the earthly realm is a women, a woman is hard to understand don't they say that! You don't get what you see, and what you see you don't get, you have to really be open to the deeper meaning Ultimately enlightenment is combining these two divine energies, male and female Male energy, you know where you want to go, you go towards heaven,enlightenment away from hell and suffering Female energy, you are open to see beyond what is there, to see beyond illusion, and for that you are open to receiving, to remembering, to receiving your divine self

Life is a dream from the point of awakened being.As you probably like 99 of people see yourself as an ego or separate entity apart from the world that dream is and feels very real to you.Like ordinary dream when you sleep feels very real until you awaken.Waking up from the dream of life means seeing through the illusion of the ego and seeing your true nature(Consciousness,Self). Ego is seen as unreal and life lived from its point of view seems now like a dream. Full awakening should be collapse of all duality including the duality of duality and non duality.

The Appendix: The Holy Grail for advanced awakened masters.

@winterknight this is defintely an egoic fear based question. but i hope you can nudge me out of this particular trap this guy came on dr. phill show and here's what the summary of it reads: A man says that he has found ultimate enlightenment. Find out why his wife says he's "more of a walking hypocrite." essentially he feels that he is enlightened... but that's causing all sorts of trouble in his family (which i presume might still happen if he was enlightened for real) he's ignoring the wife, kids... just going about his way... feeling he is guided by the source etc seems like he's got a case of just having reading up too much about non-duality and has an egoic enlightenment trap... i ask you this. provided one gets actually enligthened/awakened... though their instant behaviour/mannerism might be different and will raise questions / issues espescially living in a joint family with parents/wife will the infinite love take over and truly make it allright in that REAL case vs this case of mistaken egoic enlightenment? the video:

An awakened Human-Bean.

Am i going back to sleep voluntarily, or am i making the same mistake, whatever this mistake might be, over and over again?

I feel like what is happening is that when people awake, they go through their awakening and they immediately start racing for enlightenment Which is good, it is good to follow one's desires, if that is enlightenment, but they're racing straightforward You want to be strong, but you do not know what it means to be weak, you want to be strong, but you dont want to be weak The mistake is assuming that you are being weak or have already been weak in the past. You haven't even begun to be weak, you awaken and you immediately race for enlightenment thinking : "I've been weak or unfullfilled long enough, now its time to be strong and fulfilled!" Which again is right, it is good to aim to live strong and fulfilled, but the mistake is that you haven't been truly weak and you haven't truly been unfullfilled yet Its the reason why many face resistance on the path, you tell yourself a story about your life and what has been going on: You can only know what it means to be unenlightened when you start grasping what enlightenment is You can only know the shadows once the light is there When you awaken, you become unenlightened for the first time, as the sphere of what enlightenment is, the subtle understanding of enlightenment entered your life. You notice this is paradoxal, enlightenment sparks non-enlightenment, paradoxes are the way to enlightenment and they are a good sign, they do not allow your mind to get lost linearly but instead to progress in a circular fashion Before you awakened you were dormant, you were not unenlightened, you were not weak or strong, not happy or unhappy, not fulfilled or unfulfilled, I realize this sounds very dismissive of past experiences, I know its partly wrong but for the sake of the argument, you can view the dormant world as a grey world, a grey linear world And when you awaken the world becomes colorful, and it expands is all directions, like an expanding circle Say you want to be enlightened, to be wise , have infinite love, universal harmony and connection You want to be those things, which is good, but you cannot become something if you are not being at all You cannot become if you are not being to begin with To be, is to be who you are, so you might think you're being but you're having all this resistance against your "flaws" that you're trying to move away from, thinking "I'm done, ive been like this my whole life, now its time for something else" The mistake again is misunderstanding what awakening means, it really means awakening now, so you first have to be who you are right now before you can become anything else Thats what it means when they say life begins now, you think you've been on earth this whole time but once you awaken, once you grasp enlightenment its like part of your divine being arrived on earth, it is like you arrived, you awakened So enlightenment is allowing this cosmically enormous part of yourself, that just arrived, that just awakened, to be who you are right now, to really live this unenlightenment, to awaken to this unenlightenment, and it can be confusing and intense, but if you know this is normal for you to experience your "flaws", your humanity more intensely, then it is easier to let the process go smoothly Only once you finally grasp what it means to be strong, when you're almost there, as your divine powers are approaching like a comet, can you truly truly know yourself as weak, so do not resist weakness Only when you're so close to enlightenment, almost there, can you truly truly know what it means to not be unenlightened Never in your life have you had the opportunity to experience real weakness and unenlightenment, only once you awaken you do so So be open to the lesson, one could say final lessons, final tests, but in reality its just being open to understanding life and what has been going on. If you get that it is normal, you can dissolve your resistance

Well, from a dualist perspective there is the opposition positions of attached-unattached and attention-inattention. This would also apply to awakened-asleep, reality-illusion, truth-false and all of the other spiritual ideology rooted in the dualist mindset. Although, to transcend the dualist mindset there is another perspective to gain insight with and allow me a moment to illustrate it. Let's take light....a single particle of light, a photon and it's traveling through space on it's way to earth. While it is still in space there is no atmosphere for it to interact with so it is invisible, it is unseen even though it exists. This is like our awareness as it manifests in the observerless observation expression and it is our awareness in it's purest form but it isn't what would be called enlightened which I will get to next. When the photon reaches our planet it first encounters the atmosphere so now it has something to interact with so becomes visible as light. It still isn't blocked until it encounters something more dense but this is the first time it can be compared to enlightenment. This is like awareness as it is in our consciousness without the self identity to interfere with, obscure or block it. Then this photon encounters the solid mass of earth and that is when the light is blocked and a shadow is created. The earth is like our self identity that blocks the light creates the shadow and is when we search out the enlightened state of consciousness. The dualist mind sees this only as the opposition position to the shadow but being a separated mind perspective it will always contend with the shadow. Some may recognize this fruitless mindset and seek out the illuminated state of the photon in atmosphere as awareness in consciousness. They remove self identity, the shadow disappears and they glow in this blissful state of enlightenment... but wait. There is still another state that can be realized, the observerless observation of the photon without the atmosphere. That is the unseen, the unity of infinite, absolute wholeness, the holistic expression of awareness in it's purest form. So much so that even to call it enlightenment is to fall short of capturing the nature of it's essence. Yes, my illustration also falls short of communicating the nature of it's essence but it is the best I can do with the language I have and a conceptual mind.

Having a theology degree I can say that they cut us our legs or they tried too in the process. Because Muladhara chakra the base of the spine, colon, adrenals, legs, etc., in Christianity is SATAN/LUCIFER. So the theologians know this, those who lead and write books. I had many bright teachers that gave me lectures in theology but I haven't learned shit from them, only after I've awakened and read the vibrational patterns they imprint on me during college. So the majority of Christians in the process of eliminating "Satan" from their lives, they kill their legs in the process, so this is the trauma we got from little kids. In the east, they have a similar indoctrination pattern because they preach 7 chakras, in reality, are just 6 main chakras, and they preach the "light". So preaching the "light" in every religion is the right side of the body. Energy goes from chakras: 2nd into 3rd into 5th into 6th. The real sequence of awakening is on my signature below. So the majority worldwide, including atheists are overusing 3rd & 5th. 2nd into 3rd into 5th into 6th is EGOIC Enlightenment, like Leo, Maynor and the majority here who have passed yellow. How do I know this? I read the subconscious mind of the people, here and everywhere I go. They preach in society not to judge or not to be arrogant, but when it comes to Healing and practicality and the truth, I cannot be different.

A glimpse is when you've noticed the background peace of the mind. At the moment when you call it a glimpse it is already gone. It is... and as you saw, your noticing that desire is what threatened to interrupt it, and when you relaxed anyway, it was amazing. When you keep practicing that, you will eventually know that state is your permanent nature. yes, there doesn't need to be fear. yes. yes, you are on your way, but if you were truly content, you would let the mind utterly relax and not even worry about awakening. the relaxed mind is the awakened mind. if you can simply relax permanently and accept whatever comes -- that is enlightenment. but as long as these questions pull you back, you must keep putting in effort -- either to inquire into the I, or to relax and let go (as relaxation itself takes effort for the seeker). there is no shame in that. seek as long as you need.

recently have been appreciating and seeing the mechanics of what makes a top athlete who they are. gonna talk about basketball here for a moment, take clutch shooting players like kobe, jordan, lebron ... list goes on what's one thing which stands out about any of these and other top players. apart from their skill. when this one factor which i am talking about isn't there. it effects heavily on their skills as well. this one very important and key factor for any top athlete is CALMNESS. ALERTNESS. STAYING EVER PRESENT. NOT TALKING ANY PRESSURE. They play in the NOW they don't worry about their teams losing by 10-15 points with a couple of minutes to go when the attention falls on the clock or the "future" or the "past" in relation to the game, nerves kick in... i was watching the cavs vs warriors game 7 final last week where cavs came back from a 3-1 deficit if u watch this game closely, you can see how much being involved emotionally in a situation effects you/your perforamce in this video. the last 7-8 shots by both teams are all missed. game is tied at 89. finally a shot is made and it goes in. you have the top of the top players, playing under pressure and ONLY that is effecting their full ability the weight of the pressure bringing them down or missing the shot you have got steph curry who makes half court shots with ease missing 3 point shots multiple times makes me wonder if a ball player was fully awakened, how much of a clutch player would he be! lol amazing also. the ending when cavs finally do win, lebron collapses down and is crying/laughing he is fully in the moment. almost an awakening but unknown to him. its just amazing to be able to see this kind of energy especially in crowd format. all as one, accepting the moment and celebrating it. there is no you and me. there are hugs all around. love and peace. amazing. those WWE crowds or any sports home crowds in general all move and vibe as one. it's amazing. another thing is that top athletes play without thinking that is to say, their bodies do the playing for them (as they always do) but for a regular player like you and I, we would be thinking about playing or getting the ball or shooting or doing a move vs it just "happens" out of routine for them to the ones like us who are aware of what's really going, its amazing to see any top athlete perfrom and knowing its just him being effortless with the slightest of thinking but boy, when that thinking kicks in, it certain can take you down also. same thing with learning anything, you first drive a car, you're 100% focused and trying to drive. was teaching my younger brother last week and noticed how he couldnt even take his eyes brielf off the road to turn the volume up/down vs me now, i am able to text/drive ( i know i shouldnt :P) and i get to my destination not even remembering any turns i made or how i got there sometimes lol also quite noticeable when you look back at learning to ride a bike. all thinking goes away and its your body which gets intuned and rides the bike on its own afterwards. amazing handle the pressure = staying present in the now and not worring about the score, win/lose just thought i'd share/print my thought out loud here

This is something I would like to know (I already see this crumbling as I find myself asking "who is this "I" that wants to know?" but still, "I" would like to know this - that when I awaken in my current body-mind I am attached with, will I then forever remain in that state, even after the death of this body-mind... watching as no-thing and being everything? or will my awareness again zero-in onto another body-mind which "I" will have again have to awaken (if possible at all) I ask this question as I have heard this quite often in spiritual circles that someone might have done a lot of leg work in their previous lifetimes to have awakened so easily this time along or whatever the case might be.. that it was multiple lifetimes for the full realization to have finally occurred this leads me to believe that if someone "tires" to awaken in their life.. and fails to do so.. and dies while associating themselves as the body-mind.. then all the "spiritual knowledge/gains" which they acquired "remains" with their spirit and their life begins at that level to continue in the new form which they might become and then try to awaken from there... and then once ultimate full awakening happens / enlightenment... then it's just done, forever, and you live out eternity as a section of the absolute/the whole thing even and no more life/death cycle if enlightenment is to occur upon death automatically anyways. then it aint too bad if someone can't awaken / die before die... but it seems that life/death cycle repeats until you become the container of the life/death cycle.

Good discussion, but thought I'd just chim in with on thing. Many awakened teachers from different traditions and even within the Buddhist tradition talk about awakening in different ways. For example you seem to have a strong opinion that liberation is the end of suffering, which I've heard as the end of craving, but not the same as actual discomfort, sadness, pain, struggle, frustration, pretty much the span of the human state. Suzuki Roshi said its like normal everyday life but about 1 inch off the ground. He aludes to there being more energy and warmth of heart. I believe some Hindu religions point to state of awakening that are like BOOM constant bliss, ectasy and and direct connection with the consciousness of life itself in which you understand all information, can fly, make gold appear. Neo-Advita I believe is seeing the radical truth that Self is never not the case and no need for the cultivation of the human being. One can do what ever they want and its all the play of Self. Your an asshole, you can stay an asshole and being free because thats what is the case. Bliss may come and go, love may come and go, you may hate, you may suffer, but your hands have been freed from believing you are the doer. The list goes on and on.... This is why I've never said I'm enlightened expect in a recent post in which someone asked if there were any others on the forum, but I tried to put clear indicators of what that meant, but dont think I did a good job. There's definately something to this spiritual/seeking/enlightening/awakening thing but where you draw a line and define what makes someone or knowing in ones self what enlightened is, is slightly difficult, because there are no objective standards. I guess for me its knowing without a shred of doubt what you are and the craving to seek has seized. Its almost kinda funny because one could describe it as almost where you started. someone would ask you who you are and you would know without a shred of doubt that your one with Self, and they would ask well how do you know, and the best answer you could honestly give is, well its obvious what are you talking about, just like you would when you had no idea that you were anything other then just a guy who was born with no connection to Self, it would just be obviously so to you. The coming and going of expansive states of consciousness come and go, bliss and love would come and go, struggles and challenges with normal every day life will continue to happen, inifinity and explosion into area's that are mysterious come and go, new insights into human/scientific functioning and capacity continue to form, the body will still decay, Alzheimers may still happen, a heart attack could be around the corner, but a steadiness, equanimity, non-clinging and understanding remains.

You only once mention that you don't 'suffer' from some things you list, this hardly speaks to what I am referring by the casual use of it. In liberation also called enlightenment the freeing from suffering is what it is, it does not exists apart from it. Of course the way you talk about the meaning of words it seems they have more value then liberation does otherwise you would have mentioned the freedom from suffering more often and not casually just once. That being said let's move on past that and on to the point of this. Truth, yes, it's meaning can be confusing and quite often people focus on finding truth instead of liberation. Even if you interpret it as realization in that context what is 'made real' is liberation and our freedom from suffering. It's not just being made aware of it or awakened to it, it is liberation made real in our exprience. Now if you also want to interpret suffering differently it influences the core of this because freedom from it is central to liberation, it is all that it really is and without it liberation is not what it is. Even seen as unsatisfactoriness, which can also be said as unsatisfactory, unfulfilled or emptiness and it is what gives rise to the craving and to desire of existential life. Whether we view this cessation as desire-less emptiness or crave-less fulfillment isn't the point but ceasing the cycle of that duality of empty and full is the liberation. The path is not the path unless it leads to liberation regardless of how we express that path in idea, belief, word and deed. So my question isn't seeking an answer and the answer shouldn't be inviting a question because that is an expression of duality but all discussion about this is pointing to liberation and if it is not it is just distraction from the realization of it.

Only awakened humans talk about this

There are many things that don't come and go, one being experiencing itself, another is heartbeat, another is breath (speaking from the point of view of the un-awakened Self). But experiencing itself is not ultimate truth, its not the self knowledge of Self. Neither is the heartbeat or the breath. Again it seems like your trying to point to something that is experienced after a certain point called enlightenment, even though from my experience, experiences leads to awakening, but after that there isn't anything there that continues to prove ultimate truth is happening, other then one just knows who they are.