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Yes and... These stages being the development of the complexity of sense making that allows for holding on to increasing complexity and taking in increasing complex compositions with increasing number variables - and multiple and contradictory perspectives. Awakening etc isn't on the same axis/scale, it's rather about the point of reference from which things are being observed. You can shift that point of reference independently from the level of complexity by which you make sense of what you observe. The complexity goes into the sense making within the "illusion", while the point of reference shifts how deep into or out of the "illusion" you observe what's there. Thus, you can be an awakened "fool", no need for cognitive complexity at all. Pursuing cognitive developmental stages, as many here will have first hand experience of, likely and quite possibly will intersect with developing shifts in that point of reference as well.

@LfcCharlie4 hi . Thanks for resurrecting this thread 😁. Now that I've given it second thought you could say the point is creating whatever you want to create . No restrictions whatsoever. With baring in mind that you will reap what you sow ..so you are absolutely free to be like Hitler or Stalin but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences to your actions. These days I'm just sitting in silence doing nothing .just existing .just being .rather than doing . What are you gonna do anyways? You are eternal..there is no death that can annihilate you..so then imagine if you awakened to the fact that you are god and that you are eternal...really and this is a sincere question: what the heck are you gonna waste your eternal existence with? Joy and bliss ? That is nice but without misery and suffering there won't be any meaning to happiness. Which is exactly why this world is NOT perfect and there is a shit ton of suffering and evil and wars going on ..because God metaphorically speaking has gotten sick and tired of infinite bliss and decided to spice things up with a lil bit of drama if you will . Now That I think about it .the only point to life is life itself. Being .pure existing .basking in awareness. "Being interested In the experience of being aware " as Rupert Spira puts it .because there is literally nothing to do and nowhere to go after you've done it all . Just my thoughts Much Love brother 🙏

Most people return to being a human after their "apparent death". You do not have a choice in that if you have not awakened very much in your lifetime. Ego death means you no longer identify as "a body" or "human", but with spirit. But there's degrees of this as well and exactly "what kind" of spirit can vary greatly. You can very much be a demonic spirit or the opposite of that. Though I consider "demonic spirits" as "forms of egos".

Makes perfect sense now. Thanks! I still don’t think Trump could ever attain Enlightenment. I mean how can you say that you are Awakened when you go back doing the same stuff. Awakening should radically change how you live your life. You’re not just gonna go back to chop wood and carry water. That would mean that you haven’t fully realized and integrated the insight.

It don't seems you resonates like someone awakened even a a bit.

Is this what awakened church ladies sounds like?

Maybe not for you, but for me what would be better is if more people actually awakened (further), rather than keep on being stuck in this dream. But I understand I am massively "outnumbered".

It's because you are using the forum to "get" something. You are treating it like food. You are trying to consume something. At a certain point, you can't use the forum as a source of intellectual food anymore. The more awakened you get, the less places will be a source of intellectual/emotional food. You will just start BEING wherever you go. For example, when I am socializing with my friends, I rarely feel fed from our conversations anymore. I used to, but not as much anymore. But I still am curious about them and socialize with them, even though I don't feel more "spiritual evolved" through interacting with them. Sometimes I am more focused on what I can give to them. But sometimes, it is just playful banter and a non serious conversation. But I rarely "get" anything from my friends anymore. It is something similar with the forum and everything else in life. The more awakened you become, the less places will feed you in the same way. You might end up being in a place of "giving" knowledge to others, instead of "getting". And sharing what you know with others, instead. Sometimes, you won't feel like even giving/sharing, and instead, you will just BE. Though, if you don't feel very peaceful with where you are at, and are starving to death for more knowledge, then maybe as others mentioned, it might be time to seek out other teachers or books or resources in other places. Or focus more on Leo's videos instead.

Strangely though I have noticed Joe becoming more awakened in some ways. In his latest podcast with Brian Cox he says at the 1:08:00 mark that he had been pondering a thought about existence but realized someone "else" had beat him to it, that the Universe and God are the same thing. The Universe is everything including God. He never used to feel that way before based on previous podcasts where I was beating my head with a stick getting so frustrated at him missing how obvious it is. When you first awaken to this it feels mind blowing and then just becomes second nature to your existence, but when someone finally realizes it after 50-60 years of living it's a pretty big deal so I wouldn't say he's necessarily stuck in his level of ego development.

Wow! This feels like a stage Orange version of enlightenment to me. "It's all a dream, so just achieve things for the hell of it!". I very much like your description philosophy. Depending on what spiral dynamics stage you are at, you will form different conclusions from the perspective of an awakened state. The stage Green person might reason "Life is just a dream, so let's just love one another and hold nothing back". The stage yellow person might say "Life is just a dream, so free your mind and behold the beauty of creation through the pursuit of understanding ". Of course, every conclusion is the correct one, so just keep going for that dream Life of yours... Until you don't want to anymore.

Let’s come to a conclusion with all of this because I want peace of mind and tired of driving myself insane. We’re all a part of this forum for the sake of personal development and enlightenment right? Does horoscopes, astrology and tarot fit into what our end goal is? In the last 6 months I got into a cycle of watching astrology readings on my “ star sign “ the only reason I entertained the possibility of horoscope, tarot and astrology is because I’m an enormous action taker in all facets of my life. I don’t sit around praying for a solution, I get out there and find solutions. The last 6 months were difficult for me because I’ve been putting so much into awakening, my life purpose, personal development and spiritual practice for the last 7-8 years then I’m still not living what I feel like is proportional to my effort. The last 6 months were so tough that I was honestly losing faith in this stuff, astrology gave me a bit of delusion to believe better things are coming and there’s change on the way. It all comes down to having faith and trusting in the unknown. It’s not adding up I see people out there living their dreams in the span of 2-4 years while I’m out here taking advice from awakened masters and doing what they say then I’m still not where I want to be.... it’s not making sense

@Sugarcoat yes enlightenment IS possible. I've had several awakenings, but I've also been contemplating reality since I was a young child. However, despite being Awakened I don't do yoga or meditation or listen to yogis or go to spiritual groups or chant or go to the Buddhist meditation center or do Kriya yoga. A lot of "spiritual people" do that stuff, but I don't. It's unnecessary for me because I reject the student/master horsecrap, and other techniques that newbies find necessary. Those techniques actually are helpful to people new to this, but I'm light-years ahead of that because I've been doing this for over 50 years.

Are you enlightened is that how you know this? That’s why your name is noselfself right. I’m ready to sacrifice my human experience I just feel my “self” structure is maintaining itself and hard to break through. I did though over a year ago have this one massive permanent shift I don’t even know what to call it so I’m a bit confused sometimes like, am I awakened already or not. You always give interesting answers. Could you describe more this shift between source and ego if you want

What you are saying here is equivalent to saying the baby doesn't yet realize itself as a person until the shift (getting older) occurs for the self-recognition. Still a person, right. Well, still awakened. The shift did not awaken you. Or you could say, the shift awakened you to realize you were already awake. The baby realized what it already was.

Maybe it’s a question of how one defines awakening. During my everyday state i perceive myself as a limited human self. That I call the non awakened state. During 5 Meo that perception was partially/completely temporarily broken down, so it was almost like I didn’t exist. That’s not something I’ve “experienced” before so that’s why I said it’s not known. That I’m guessing is the awakened state. Im not fully sure though I’m open to changing my views but so far this makes sense to me.

Yes, the seed is only a seed BUT ONLY IN APPEARANCE. You are not awakened but only in appearance. The point of my post is to say you are already that rose ready to be bloomed. Watered and cared for. You cannot turn a rose seed into an orange seed. The only reason you have the capacity to awaken is if you were already that. Nothing said about actualizing that awareness. This world is an after thought. It is already done. You are already awake you're just catching up to it. That's the point. Nothing you do will awaken you only actualize it and give you the recognition. How is somebody going to know or not know they're awaken if they don't already know what that is. In order to know what that is you have to be it and you cannot become something you're not already.

One reason not to repeat myself that I can tell I’m not awakened is because there’s a significant difference between my everyday state and the “state” on 5 Meo dmt

True. But it's possible to be completely unaware of our infinite nature and instead be identified with a limited body-mind identity. The shift of perception from a limited identity towards unlimited identity is what is referred as Awakening. We are not already awakened until this shift of perception happens and it happens only by increase of awareness. I know I'm repeating myself here but it feels appropriate to say it one more time.

I thought non duality was related with awakening. And limited related to the non awakened state. But okay I see

Ofc what you actually are is what you actually are. So in actuality this reality might be non dual. But still there’s a difference between perceiving yourself as limited vs when that limited perception is not there. Aka awakened

The seed is still only the seed, not the tree yet. You have the capacity to jump inside you, but you haven’t jumped yet. You have the capacity to awaken but you haven’t awakened yet, I would say.

We might inherently be non dual in the absolute sense but we perceive ourselves as limited humans so in that sense we aren’t awakened inherently . As we grow up our self concept forms and is the veil

You learn because you have the innate capabilities to learn. You did not invent the processes that goes on in the learning process which involves the brain and motion receptors - however you put it, but you get the drift. All you know is that you can learn. Dance is just one thing to learn, so is math. The learning capabilities were already programmed within you to be able to learn the same way the awakened capabilities are already within you to awaken. TO LEARN/TO AWAKEN. Same thing, different activity.

We cannot give a tree a car and tell it to drive it. It is not equipped to do so and is not meant to drive a car for obvious reasons. We cannot teach people anything and have them learn anything if that learning capability wasn't already inherent. It's because it's already pre-programmed within you from the intelligent source to be able to learn. We cannot drink gasoline to nourish ourselves because it wasn't meant to go in the body and we cannot fly because we aren't equipped with wings to do so, that's why we invented airplanes. Do you get the drift. As far as enlightenment and awakening goes, you cannot enlighten or awaken if it was not already an inherent thing within you to be able to do so. You cannot awaken a tree or a bird or an apple, can you. They are living things even an apple is a living food, but they are not equipped to be able to awaken. You are pursuing something that you are capable of doing because it's already within you. You cannot awaken if you are not already awake. It's impossible. All the dead sources you are using to awaken yourselves has no power. All the inanimate and non-sentient things you are programming yourselves with to awaken has no power in of themselves to awaken you. The awakened being that you are is what gives them the power; is what's charging them with the electric current of energy that you are. You cannot awaken yourselves if that capacity isn't already inherent. You cannot throw awakening down your throat and eat it to become awakened. We water a rose bush and give it the right conditions to grow and mature into full blown roses, not apples. It is impossible to turn a rose bush into an apple tree the same way it's impossible to awaken into a conscious more enlightened being if you are an elephant. Whether or not I believe in enlightenment and awakening is not the issue here. Understand than. I'm not arguing for their validities. I'm simply saying it's impossible to awaken or become enlightened if you are not already that inherently. Acting that way or feeling that way is besides the point of my post. Those are outer manifestations of the cause. What you are really pursuing is to be able to embody, feel and express your already enlightened and awakened self, to charge it, to shock the psyche into being that, If there's already such a thing; and like I said, my post is not about whether there's such a thing or not but to show you how it's not possible if you were not already that. So, when I say, you are already awakened or enlightened that's what I'm pointing to. I'm not saying one is acting or being awakened. That's on the individual to recognize it within themselves to notice the difference. We cannot do that for them. We can activate our already awakened selves into being not become enlightened out of thin air. That's all.

You are assuming that i'm here to work. You are assuming that I think i'm enlightened. I don't even think there's any such thing. Only to recognize what and who you are. Done? What's there to do but live life. I never started the seeking to become enlightened or awakened. Don't project your beliefs unto me. I'm truly in love with existence and I don't need anything from it. Only to manage staying alive and to feed and clothe myself until I die. I wanted to understand what this is all about and to get to know what Reality is and consciousness and awareness. Not to become enlightened. Not to do something to change myself other than normal self-improvement. Now, from what I've learnt and the information I've gathered I've fell in love with this stuff because of understanding and curiosity. It's marvelous and intriguing, That's all I'm doing here. Investigating and wondering and in awe of the beauty of it all. The mystery. I didn't tell my mom and dad to bring me here and i had no say in it. Why the hell should i worry about getting enlightened. Then what. Huh? Then what. Please tell me. Just to say I'm enlightened. I'm already learning how to not let the mind control me and learning how to love myself and others and to give back to the world the best I can and to be compassionate and kind to others and to give and receive love and to try to guide others in ways that they ask to be guided and for advice. What else do i need to do other than that but to keep living and trying to enjoy the beauty of nature. Go ahead and do all your work related themes to get enlightened. I'm over here basking in the beauty of existence through all the pain and suffering of mankind and i don't need to change myself in that respect because I didn't make myself and I'm not in charge of anything Universal. It knows what it's doing and I'm at peace with all that. Anything I do is for the love of it, in this field and not because I'm trying to get somewhere. There's no time and no space so where am I going in the illusory relative world? Take your wisdom elsewhere and to someone else who needs it, I've got the Universe on my side and i don't worship false Gods. I don't need anything other than the light of Awareness that I AM and to go within. It's everywhere I go and I can access it at anytime. I have not forsaken it like you have by trying to look elsewhere for love. I know who I am and you don't that's why you're running around looking for yourself. Good luck with that. I don't care about non-duality and all that. I enjoy watching the videos and I think they are hilarious. I find existence hilarious and fun and exciting. Much more than humans and their bullshit. Including mine. This is not work for me, it's my fucking life. It's what I fucking live for. It's me. What else do i need to do. I'm not lost. I'm right here.