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@Outer Once again, this argument took it as a given from the start that believing in a seperate self is a delusion and truth can be found in stillness. Doesn't answer the question. 'No thoughts is the goal' only applies if you're already assuming enlightenment is a desirable thing. Frankly, some of you here sound brainwashed. @Victor Mgazi So we're back to the 'truth for truth's sake' line. All you get from enlightenment is to end the dream of life. So really it doesn't make any sense if you're not sick of living. It's the 'life sucks, just kill yourself' argument. If enlightenment wasn't dressed up with fantastical, misleading appeals to the ego (mystical states you also have to ultimately renounce, the ridiculously nonsensical prospect of being some blissed out 'enlightened being', etc), I wonder if any mentally stable person would give it any more consideration than a suggestion of suicide? Unless, (I'm addressing everyone now), knowing the truth just for the sake of it matters more to you than everything else in the universe combined, and you'll gladly do that trade. Think you fit that category? Ask yourself why you're still doing anything at all.

@Mikael89 Sure, my mind is rebelling totally. That could be said of anyone who ever changed their mind. Only if you already assume that enlightenment is a desirable thing does that become a concern. And lol, yeah if I ask a teacher of enlightenment they're sure to promote enlightenment. If I ask a teacher of terrorist suicide bombing they're sure to promote suicide bombing. Doesn't make it a good idea. @Bobby Go on then, what have I missed? @cirkussmile Yes, enlightenment is the end of suffering, and is natural of course, as it's truth. We're going round in circles here, that was established at the beginning.

My girlfriend has serious emotional problems and has been trying to overcome them for a few years now, going to therapy, meditating, reading, trying different exercises but she feels she is still in the same place, and has lost hope. She often says she wants to be dead, and says nobody understands her, she feels alone and hopeless. She has been hinting she will do something to call the attention of the people around her, so they can see how bad she feels, she has talked about suicide. What should I do?

I’m having some problems to determine where on the spiral could I be and therefor I don’t know where the hell to begin working on. From one hand I’m still trapped en a very blue sense of guilt because of a lot of thing I’ve done in the past, but in a lot of things I’ve also trascended blues guilt. I think I’m mostly in orange, but in a kind of inward orange or a low stage orange because I’ve being very depressed for around three years ive had an intempted suicide a couple months ago, I am very disinterested in accomplishing anything with small lapses of entrepreneurism. Because I don’t have any money I started to attend to AA meetings (Ive never had problems with any substances or so, but I’ve found a place to empty my self of those thoughts) but even in AA I see a lot of delusion as Leo has explained. There is something inside of me that knows that what Leo is teaching is the way, but at the same time I know I have so many things to work on my self first. It’s strange! It’s like I understand everything that Leo is saying (I know that “believing” doesn’t matter at all) but my reality is so basic, and every time I plan to work on stage Orange to fully embody my stage, Thoughts of “Why even try if it’s delusion?” Comes to my head. You can see in my writing that it’s so confusing, but that’s how I feel right now. I really really hope you can help me and that I’m ready for the help.

@Primentex thoughts of suicide are just a distraction. Suffering comes in many forms, small and large, simple and complicated. But all mental suffering occurs because you want to force 'reality' to your will. And when 'reality' doesn't do what you want it to, you suffer. All distraction is just suffering in disguise; you distract yourself because you do not like reality and you do not like reality because it's not happening the way you want it to. Step away from the suicide. Step away from the distraction. Embrace reality as it is.

I tell myself regularly to not be cheap. 2_ ways to not be cheap Focus on health first Don't stop trying Give value to yourself the way you are. Do not care about societal expectations of yourself. Embrace your uniqueness Express yourself fully and be honest and upfront and not pretentious Be detached and indifferent from the world. Be a goal setter but don't be too ambitious. Give value to your time Stop giving value to objects. Take care of your self Remember that you are better than you what you think you are Remember that you are important Do not spend your time in frivolous stuff Stay away from anything that is even slightly toxic Cut off people who are annoying, painful or harass or difficult. Be very open and assertive Be matured in your choices Develop healthy habits If you constantly feel like you are not good enough or you wish you could have been this or that or you had something you wish, it's natural to feel that way, but remember that you are not the only one and remember that life is not meant to be living with pity and regrets but with hope and faith towards a better future. Be appreciative of whatever you already have and embrace and accept it and nurture it. Make good out of whatever you got instead of feeling sorry for what you don't. Remember that there's just nothing about something that doesn't exist or lost, but salvage that which you can. Regretting your life is like crying over spoiled milk, the milk is not gonna come back, so what's the point of crying and regretting and feeling deprived or unlucky for not having what others got. It has no benefit other than a momentary feeling of upset and disappointment and sadness. It's like adding insult to injury. Find peace. Constantly reminding yourself of what you can't have is a recipe for adding unhappiness to an already frustrated unhappy mind. One thing is - you never know if others have it better. What if they don't. What If they are tired of their shit and want out. ..you might think they have it better but maybe think don't think same. Often times we hear a celeb commiting suicide and we think it's absurd but it's actually not. You never know what they had to deal with. Therefore don't be quick to judge or don't think everyone has it perfect. In fact most don't. It's just that most people don't tell how they suffer cause they are shy or embarrassed to open up about their struggle...... ..... So if you think you aren't good enough, don't beat yourself, you weren't expected to be, you are already good as you are and frankly if you are constantly thinking that then you are obviously taking life too seriously. Fuck that shit. How does it matter if life turned out bad or good. Competition only exists because you create it. Your create your own thoughts of misery and despair. Yes life can be complicated and painful but we can control how we react, we can definitely choose not to react at all. So it doesn't even matter if things didn't work out. If you did your best, you should be at peace. Remember that nothing in this universe is perfect or free from chaos. Even if anything is perfect its mostly rare. And everything that is perfect doesn't stay perfect forever. That's how time causes everything to finally degrade and disappear. So enjoy it in the hear and now. Beauty lies in experiencing beautiful moments every now and then because these moments once gone are not gonna come back ...... .... Appreciate who you are because you are the product of your circumstances and you are not to be blamed and you are not at fault. You can only do as much good as you can and that's the testimony of how much good you are. Your trials are a witness of your strength and your determination to make it good. Don't be let down by them. Life may not be worth living because there's not much to enjoy but it's definitely worth struggling and fighting for. Don't let it slip by just cuz it doesn't get better. Your effort to better your life will bear fruit one day even though now it looks like an unfulfilled dream.

@Primentex The nature of the universe is to evolve. Suicide thwarts that nature.

@Primentex There was a time when I thought the secret to life was suicide. I'm not sure why, but everything around me was pointing to it. I wasn't depressed or anything. It just seemed to come to me like an insight or something. Suicide seemed to make sense on so many levels. At the time I had been really diving into teachings of enlightenment and was expanding my mind at a really fast rate. Back then there was no internet, no forums, no one to discuss my experience with that understood. So it was a very lonely journey. Instead of ending my search for understanding and allowing suicide to be the answer, I kept going deeper. Until I found myself in a place of a gratitude and wonder. Reflecting back on it, I think I was misunderstanding most of what I was reading and experiencing. I was taking everything too literal. I think suicide is a very self centered trap on the road of self development. I think it's healthy to contemplate death and to practice accepting death. Life is a paradox. So considering life to be an illusion or dream, doesn't make it any less real. I don't know if you play video games but you can think of it this way... you know the game isn't real but it's fun to play! If you kill your video game character, he really dies in the game. But the point of the game being created is to play it through until it's end not to just kill your character and stop playing. You're here now in this beautiful/ugly illusion, why not use the opportunity to explore and play!

Spot on. I have too experienced something like that on LSD. I "realized" that I cant escape myself or the world, so if I commit suicide I will be just where I was before and I will live forever in a limbo. So it was nonsense, but it felt very very real. What got me out of it, was to firstly become aware that it is happening, then become present and ask myself: "what is true? what is true beyond my thoughts?". Then I realized my panic was rooted in a thought, and a thought is not the ultimate reality. So the panic stopped right there. Then I laughed. You talk about "meaninglessness sucking you in". One reason for that could be that you resisted your experience with your mind. Your mind is a meaning and connection making machine. When it suddenly can't find any, it panics and clings to what ever it can get a hold of. Sometimes that meaning is pure delusion (say, a psychotic episode) but the mind does not care, it's a survival mechanism for it so it could not care less if the meaning it comes up with is true at all. You started to distract yourself, that was a mistake. You tried to deny it was happening, but that denial was a superficial layer on top of your true experience. It was a attempt to take back control of the situation. But really, you have no control over anything, so you used all your (non-existant) "tools" available. You simply jumped to an experience that you maybe was not ready yet. How to know when you are ready for some psychedelic experience? When you are facing it. How to recover? Ground yourself in what you know is true. Ground yourself in things you enjoy. Not what you believe is maybe true. You don't know anything about death, and thats okay. Take your time to just live your regular life. Right now, the experience is over, but the memory of it still haunts you. Have you read Echard Tolles "Power of now?" If you haven't, read it. If you have, read it again. Happiness and joyful living is available for you right now, every second. Only reason you feel scarred is that you are not in the now, you hold on to a memory. Of course letting go of that memory is not as simple as "dropping it", as it will find it's way to your consciousness. So what you are facing here is a process of becoming present each time you notice you are somehow re-living the experience. Also, don't take drugs for now, that's obvious I think. If you can't get past your trauma say, in a few months, consider therapy and/or a healer. Im clueless about healing myself, but I have read it's very helpful for many. Also one thing what you can try if nothing else works, try taking something around 80mg of MDMA. It is a powerful way to work with trauma, and lots of research is being made on it's effects to cure PTSD. If you decide to go that route, your standard drug safety guides apply. Get a milligram scale. Good luck! Come on...

Just look around you. Is there anything that you see that is not calm and quiet? Have you see the trees wondering about comitting suicide? Or a chair? Or a rock? If you are observant there’s only one thing that is not satisfied with what is and that is the voice in the head having these kind of conversations with itself. Are the entire universe wrong or is it something you haven’t figured out yet? If that voice is not there you will see that everything around you is perfectly fine with being what it is.

@fireworld Let me rewrite what you wrote from stage Blue's POV thinking about your stage (Orange). Orange Stupidity: The idea behind Spiral Dynamics is that you go through the stages and incorporate the previous stages into the higher ones to some extent. Given this shouldn't stage Orange have a decent amount of understanding of how religion and morality works? I understand that there are limits to religion and that it can be done in an unhealthy way, but from my perspective every person that i have met that is in stage Orange is extremely selfish and disconnected from "moral living". Take the human body as an example of a system, we know that this system called a human body operates in certain ways that keeps it healthy and strong. Proper food, sleep, prayer, fasting, chastity, and so on. But the stage Oranges seem to be extremely against any "set" rules for keeping your materialistic cravings in check. They will take something like casual sex or greasy fast food or alcohol and call it healthy even though we know it isn't healthy at all and is most likely going to be the thing that kills you. The same is true about business, or relationships or anything that we have a deep understanding of. Our religious leaders have long ago pointed out the evils of having a materialistic worldview. Materialism leads to a rejection of God, a mindless belief in technological progress and science, and is responsible for greed, corporate exploitation, objectification of women, sex addiction, drug addiction, food addiction, pornography, crude humor, violent video games, nuclear weapons, depression, suicide, loss of direction, broken marriages, single mothers, STDs, abortions, and much more. Isn't Orange corrupting the very fabric of decent society, turning it into the devil's playground? How can Orange be so stupid as to expect happiness from money, fine clothing, technological gadgetry, TV, video games, Facebook, sex before marriage, pornography, drugs, and rock n roll? Isn't Orange the embodiment of depravity and godlessness? Isn't this the greatest limiting factor to stage Orange? Is that they are completely ignoring how spiritual reality actually works and that's the reason they end up in so much trouble and pain?

I always find it silly that people automatically assume that if someone wants to suicide , it's surely because he doesn't know people love him. like : "oh why do you want to kill yourself ? your mom loves you , your father loves you , everybody loves you ". why do you assume that any suicide related question is about love somewhere ... lack of love , or lack of awareness about the love he receives ? Maybe someone just want to end his life , because he doesn't see any meaning in it ... maybe he got the feeling that life being an illusion , it has to be a joke, a bad joke filled with non sense.

@Nahm that's rough man sorry you had to go through that. This topic is coming up so much, suicide is not the answer - and I believe you will just get dumped into another miserable existence when you do until you learn your lesson and achieve enlightenment, however many lives that takes.

So in the Wild Wild Country documentary there is a part where Osho wants to commit suicide with help of his doctor through lethal injection. The attempt is unsucesful but later on he does die at the age of 58 and in the doctor's presence. So we can say it's likely that they actualy did it in the end. Another thing is that as many of you may know in the eastern culture there is a tradition of Mahasamadhi which is basicaly leaving one's body after realization / fulfiling his pourpose on earth/ being no longer interested in life here, whatever you wanna call it. Phenomenon of Mahasamadhi is well documented and there are countles examples. So my questions are: If Osho was so blisful/attained and all that good stuff why would he want to commit suicide at the age of 58 ? And if he decided that it's his time to leave why woudn't he do it trough Mahasamadhi ? I'm sure he was aware of the practice. What do you guys think of it.

If you are enlightened even just being is enough. Your beingness will touch people's lives. Have you heard about the homeless man who was about to commit suicide and because of the eye contact and smile of one single stranger while the crossed each other, he decide to stay alive and totally turned his life around?

@Primentex Went to my friend’s funeral yesterday, who committed suicide. Some reasons off the top of my head not to do that; his mom, his sister, his friends, his niece, his nephew, his coworkers, his uncles & aunts, his cousins, his grandma, & that he could have gotten the help he needed and lived a happy and amazing life (he was 23). And I don’t mean he shouldn’t have done that for the sake of those people, I mean he could have realized he had all those people loving him already, and he could have loved them. He probably would have seen that life typically get’s easier in just a few years from 23. Also, if you actually were aware (realized) that this is an illusion, you wouldn’t be thinking about nor asking about suicide - that reveals you are in the duality of believing you are alive. Upon realization, there is all the love & joy in “life”, as there is in “death”, as they are actually the same, with regard to You.

Life can be sheer joy, a beautiful dream. People think of committing suicide because they don’t know how to beautify it.

You'll just be catapulted into a new life anyway. Reincarnation man. And in this new life you might not be aware of actualized.org and that suicide is really not that much of a problem. Better work a bit on your (illusory) karma while you have the chance.

Man, there's been a lot of suicide talk here lately. Do you think you've gone as far as you can in your life? Nothing more to figure out? You're here to learn.

Having suffered from a degree of confusion that reached a point that left me crippled and paralyzed in bed, unable to make choices sometimes to the smallest details, questioning almost every existential matter possible, I believe I have a certain authority on this subject. After having have watched Leo's video on the topic of confusion —whilst he made some very valid points and I don't criticize his video as a whole altogether— it is my feeling that I am able to contribute even further to this topic, since I had to develop my own way and strategies on how to deal with an incredibly confused mind; A mind that didn't know what left or right was, that didn't know what forward or back was, what up or down was, what was going to help me or what was going to hurt me. The advice I'm going to give is to anyone who is sincere enough to face the fact of his own ignorance, to admit to himself that he doesn't know the answer to the dilemma he is in. If you try to resolve your confusion by clinging to some idea you have learned in the past, you are not being sincere to yourself. Also, the confusion I'm going to portray in my story is the confusion of facing the existential desert; it is the confusion where you have lost your orientation, and don't know where to go next anymore. I feel like many people face confusion, but it is not about being totally lost and disoriented as far as life itself is concerned; it is about facing an obstacle which you are unsure how to navigate around it. But beyond that obstacle, you still see a certain heading or direction. My confusion is about the deepest, existential confusion possible. Nevertheless, the advice I'm going to give at the end of the post is applicable for both "ordinary" confusion and "existential" confusion. Let me give you a short peek of my story. My story Having read and watched much material on the topic of spirituality and mysticism, particularly from Osho, I found myself eventually in a state where I started to lose my capacity to orient myself. If you know Osho, you know that his teaching can be incredibly contradictory and non-linear, primarily for the simple fact that his books have been derived from his talks, which often was oriented to answer questions, and he himself said that it was his purpose to answer the questioner instead of the question. This implies that he accounts for the questioner's unique situation, which means it is specifically applicable to that person, but may in fact be harmful to another person. But this was Osho's approach. I on one hand loved the many different perspectives he brought to the table, and the cleverness and intelligence he presented these perspectives, but on the other hand he never clarified a specific path, a certain clarity of which to derive orientation from, as far as your evolutionary progress of consciousness concerned. Maybe in one book he presented such a model to understand it, but in another book you would yet again feel contradicted. Regardless, eventually I became very confused to all this vast array of knowledge, as I had a large amount of perspectives, but no clear direction, or something that I could work towards. I was simply too confused, too overwhelmed by the vast amount of possibilites on literally every subject. Eventually this lead me so far down the rabbit hole I started to become suicidal. Not suicidal because I thought ending my life would be the solution to my problems, but rather, because I had this strong sense that SOMETHING had to be done amidst my complete paralysis, and not the idea of suicide, but the idea of pushing my pain so much I would perhaps have a transformation at the brink of suicide, appealed to my egoic mind the most at that time. The egoic mind had me completely in its grip, and this idea I had come across that only in absolute despair you are able to be transformed, somehow appealed a little bit to me too much, which I was trying to push the pain through suicidial behaviour. Of course, the idea that you need utter despair is also simply a perspective, which doesn't have to be valid or at least relevant to my situation, but it seemed very real to me at the time. After some time, I realized that it was going to be actual suicide (which I didn't want to do in the first place, so it was really a gimmick to begin with), or I needed not to hope for transformation, but to actually transform myself, which also wasn't going to be this one-time event. But if you're so incredibly confused, that every time you think of a possibility or perspective, then immediately your mind throws in the opposite viewpoint, discerning your initial plan, then it becomes incredibly difficult, because you have no idea what you're supposed to be doing in the first place. I would describe the situation you're in —or think you're in— at that point with being submerged in the sea on a moonless night, with no orientation whatsoever. You want to breathe, you in fact you want to breathe desperately, but you can't tell where the surface is. You don't know what is up or down, left or right, forward or backward... Then how to make a choice? What if you accidentally simply go deeper down into the sea and drown altogether? This is how the situation of utter confusion feels like. You feel like you're starting to run out of breath by the fatigue of the confusion you've already been battered with, but you're afraid to move of making the situation even worse. The reality in this metaphor is, however, that you in fact have gills, and that you need to start swimming for oxygen and thus life to run through your gills! Of course when you're still in the water there is no water running through your gills, and thus you're not deriving any oxygen from the water. But if you have gills, then it doesn't matter which direction you're swimming. But we'll get to that. So how did I manage to get myself out of such a state of confusion. Well... I will portray this by a quote from (who else but) Osho. What does this story imply? What does it signify? It is a metaphor for disorientation, for existential confusion. It is the stream of life. It tells us about how we are able to navigate the terrain of life with a certain capacity to orient ourselves. It doesn't mean the terrain is always smooth and cooperative, and sometimes there are obstacles which have to be navigated around, but at least we can recognize that they're obstacles as such. You may be confused, uncertain as to how to get around a certain obstacle, but at least you can see it as an obstacle and you know the terrain continues after that. But as far as the desert is concerned... Then what? For as far as you can see there are only dry sands, and you begin to dry up... Where to go? This story talks about the winds. About how to trust the winds to carry you over. It sounds absurds to the mind. What winds? You see yourself as seperate from the winds. You think you have to find your navigation by your own... but there is no landmark whatsoever for orientation. The winds portray the Tao; The winds signify the flow of existence, of life. The egoic mind is diametrically opposed against this flow. If you were to become one with this flow, it would mean ego death. So how can the ego possibly not resist it? It has to! But ultimately, the way to get out of this confused, disoriented state is to relinquish your personal resistance against life, against the flow of life, and allows yourself to be carried with it. What does this mean in practical terms? How did I apply this in my personal situation. Going beyond my confusion Realizing I needed to transform myself instead of waiting on a transformation to happen, I realized two essential things. First off, I needed a determination for myself, a commitment. I had read "when going through hell don't stop" from Douglas Bloch at that time, and the title couldn't be more appropiate. It is one of the best titles for a book ever made. It is exactly that: When you're in an incredible amount of suffering, then why stop exactly there? Then why get obsessed with it and start fighting and reacting against it? You won't manage to push it away; in fact, you'll only stop right in the middle of it instead of moving further. If you were in actual hell, but you knew it had a beginning and an end, would you stop there to go sightseeing whilst being consumed by fire? Of course not! So his book called for a longer-term determination. An attitude that no matter what happens, you'll keep setting one step at a time and hold this vision for yourself that things will get better. He also recommended a mood journal: noting down how your day went every day, rating it by a number. This can be very helpful, since it allows you to stay with it in a certain objectivity; You don't get as lost in your subjective experiences and judgements about yourself, but you stay objective to some degree. This is not necessarily a tool for dealing with confusion per se, since it also helpful for getting out any sort of ditch; be it depression, anxiety, or what have you. But it is definitely an essential attitude that I needed to develop at the time being, and it can help you too. The second important attitude I needed to change, and this one is relevant specifically to confusion, is that I needed to make choices for the sake of making choices itself. Instead of trying to make the best decision possible, the emphasis now shifted on making the choice anyways, on the capacity to make choices for choices sake. This meant many choices were made, with no idea on what basis I was making them. Sometimes I would choose A, sometimes I would choose B, and then the next day A again, and sometimes AB... or C... And with absolutely no (apparent) intuitive or mental foundation on to which base this decision! At least at first, it was all seemingly at random! There seemed to be no pattern to it. This was a major shift in focus, and required a great amount of trust. This trust is what the story was talking about, the story about the stream of life. This trust is something very mysterious, because where does this trust come from? How do you know you can trust this trust? What guaranteed me that simply making choices for choices sake was going to get me out of all this confusion? It certainly wasn't something that was immediately obvious when I started to attempt to trust this trust, that showed itself clearly that "this is the way". But somehow, this trust somehow always remained somewhere on the background from that point on. Even when it seemed faraway and sometimes even appeared nonexistent, it always remained on the background somewhere, sometimes without me noticing it. Why was this trust there? What logical basis was there to show me that I could rely on this trust? There was none, as I've already been able to doubt absolutely anything anyways. And neither was there a sense of intuition that I was aware of that was guiding me. But when times are so rough that there is really no other alternative than to evolve, miracles can happen. A response from your being then comes stronger than the objections than your mind can make, and you now start functioning from a complete unknown source, a source not supported by the mind or logic, or even by feelings, how I felt about something. Because I had made choices by logic alone, which ultimately had failed, and I had made choices from feelings alone, which ultimately had failed. On top of that, any "feeling-intutive" sense also now seemed to be obscured by the excessive mind activity. Now how to make choices? From what center? But I had to make choices, so that's what I did. By and by, functioning from an unknown source became more comfortable to me. I still didn't know for sure I was making the right choices or decisions, and there still showed no consistent, reliable pattern, but the anxiety about "needing to make the right choice" seemed to cease more and more. I became more relaxed in it. That's when it started to become more and more clear to me that it was never about the choices and decisions I made in the first place —it never was— but about the quality of how you make your decisions, and how whole-heartedly you make those decisions. Then you can relax in it, whatsoever you choose to do. The decisions you make now come from a deeper place. I call it: Being-intuition. How does my experience apply to you? (advice part) Understand that you reading this may not have reached the point yet where you are able to act the same way I now act, regarding the way I make decisions, but nevertheless there are some things I wish I would've known when I was at the height of my confusion. Let us first be clear about what confusion actually is. In its most simple definition: The need to know. If you are confused, it means you need to know something, otherwise something within you remains unsatisfied. Isn't it a little bit strange? Can't existence be fine without you understanding it? Babies don't know anything at all, yet they're perfectly happy. But our minds want to be able to grasp, want to understand, are afraid of the unknown. If we want confusion to settle, we need to let go of our need to know. But ultimately, this is not possible in the beginning. The compulsion to understand is too great even if we intellectually understand and agree that ultimately there is nothing that we can and should try to know. Just because we are aware that there is no necessity to know, does not mean we are instantly able to stop this momentum of unsatisfiable curiosity. Nor should we. Acknowledgement of the fact that we do not know the answer is the first step. Acknowledgement that there is no need to ultimately know anything nor could we, is the second step. Or I should say: Acknowledgement of the fact that the possiblity of the previous statement exists. It has not been your experience yet that nothing could or should be known, and just because I say so may convince your mind, but it will not convince the deeper core of your being, of your system. For that reason, if you have the need to really ponder and contemplate upon a certain subject, don't hesitate to do so! If you live by the idea that nothing can be known and nothing should be attempted to try to know anything, you're going directly against yourself. For you, this is simply an idea that is being presented to you; It has not been your reality yet. If you try to avoid confusion or questioning, you will be fighting against yourself, you will start become divided and ultimately this will lead to a lot of unnecessary suffering. What needs to happen is that your intellectual sword of the many opposing perspectives and ideas need to be sharpened to such an extent, that just by experience you start to see the futility of it. The futility is of the fact that despite having all this knowledge, all these perspectives, all these ideas, you still don't know how to live by them. You still don't know how to implement them into your own life. You still don't know how to integrate them, where to find the balance, which perspective to apply when, and how to actually live it! The map is not the territory! But this can only happen when you take your contemplation, your questioning and pondering to the most extreme degree possible for you, as to where you will start to see the futility of your knowledge as far as your happiness is concerned by your own experience. Then naturally, you will want to step away from this knowledge because it's becoming too heavy for you. So, paradoxically, the sword of knowledge needs to be sharpened to a degree that it is sharp enough to cut away from itself! If it's blunt it can not cut itself away. Go figure that one out And be very, very honest to yourself. If you try to delude yourself by holding onto an old fixated perspective or by avoiding a certain perspective out of fear because of what implications it could have if it were true, you are only making the process more difficult for yourself But there's one important thing to notice: Just because I give you permission to ponder, question and contemplate, as you should, doesn't mean that you can't take a break from it. Here's what I recommend: I say that whenever a question is on your mind, or that whenever you want to clarify and go deeper into a certain perspective because you are curious how deep the rabbit hole goes, then go and do so. Personally, I'd recommend taking a walk. Taking a walk always helped me quite a bit because it allowed my thoughts to be a little bit clearer and sharper, and thus it significantly made this contemplation process easier. It may not work the same way for you that way, but for me taking a walk definitely helped me. Alternatively, you can also write down your thoughts and get them on paper (or Word or whatever). Then if you write them down, they will have a certain solidity to it. This can also help tremendously. So, if you're then going out taking a walk whils pondering, writing down your thoughts, or just sitting at home contemplating, go as deeply into the matter as possible. Think or write down all the thoughts and perspectives and ideas you can come up with for that time being, and at some point you will notice that either you are out of relevant, renewing thoughts, or your mind simply gets too tired from all this thinking. So at this point is where you decide to let it all down, and just leave it be for now. Now you can give yourself permission to let it all go just for that moment, because you cleared up everything that was possible for you at that moment. Take some rest now, do something else, and later on you'll either go deeper into the same subject, or start pondering upon a new subject (or an interrelated subject), which you can then explore until your mind gets tired. This I found to be the healthiest expression of dealing with confusion. I only learned this after I got through the climax of my personal period of confusion. By the way, after that climax, that crescendo of confusion has ended, there will still be confusion and questioning sometimes, but it will gradually become less and less (intrusive). So: Don't fight confusion, don't pretend that you're above it all and should attempt not to try to know something, but go into it as your mind desires to. If the topic is too much in the forefront of your mind, then allow it to surface! Don't fear confusion, go through it! Do you think you will be able to avoid your matters of confusion for the rest of your life? If you have just a little bit of intelligence, these questions will keep on coming back, demanding your attention to answer them. Now once again, they will not ultimately be answered, as nothing can ultimately be known for sure by the mind, but your perspectives, arguments and viewpoints will be as sharp as you can possibly get them. And when your mind gets too tired, or you're out of renewing ideas and perspectives, at that moment, drop it. Now you are able to. And if you keep on doing this and persisting in questioning, you will reach a point where almost everything has now been questioned and almost every existential perspective (at least the ones that are relevant to you at that moment) have now been clarified, and now the matter of how to drop this questioning mind will come to the forefront by itself. Now it's not something you're trying to make happen, now it's something that starts happening by it own; Now you start questioning the very nature of questioning itself, not because you thought you should, but because your system now requires that from you. And that is the moment that you start moving completely into the unknown. Now you start making decisions from which you do not know on which logic you make them from. If you persist in making decisions and choices on an illogical basis long enough (and notice, the idea of making "illogical decisions" can become another obsession by the mind), you'll now start to connect with true being-intuition. The difference between being-intuition and the more common feeling-intuition is that feeling-intuition just considers how you feel about something, whereas being-intuition both considers how you feel about something, and what you think is necessary to do in that situation, what your mind tells you, and then takes both centers into persective and makes a choice based from the unknown, the unknowable. That is being-intuition: Making choices from the unknown, yet with a strange, unexplainable sense of certainty if you really start to connect with it, which will not happen at first. But at first when you're moving out of confusion, you'll have to make choices anyways, even if you have no sense of certainty whatsoever or what you're doing or why you're doing it. So in conclusion: Questioning is good, it is normal, and should not be repressed. Confusion is only a sign that you're moving forward. Only idiots are not confused. Only idiots can live a life of apparent certainty. You are not such a person, otherwise you would most likely not be reading this. You should be aware from the very getgo that the perspective exists that ultimately nothing can be known at all with certainty by the mind, but if this is merely an idea to you and not an experience, hold the perspective in the back of your mind but don't attach yourself to the idea that "I don't know" either. So question, wonder, ponder, and don't hold back, until your mind temporarily gets tired and you actually feel like dropping it. And when questioning, wondering and pondering, go on a walk or start writing. This can help elevate your level of mental clarity, thus helping the process. And on a longer, more permanent basis, when the whole thing altogether gets too much, and you really want to drop this mind altogether, then you need to start accepting to be absorbed into the flow of life. How do you start doing that? If your realization is deep enough, you will be able to drop it by making decisions based on what appears to be thin air, on no logical basis. And notice: Making decisions based on feelings is also making them "on a logical basis", meaning you logically use your feelings. You can use logic to make decisions, and you can also use your feelings to make decisions, but they are not the primary core of which your decisions come from, they can simply act as facilitating information for the unknown to act from. This may sound as very strange and uncomprehensible to you, but it is only a matter of time until you reach this stage and you will start to understand by experience what I'm talking about. All of this has been at least my experience, my point of view. I can not attest with absolute certainty that what I've described will be the path for everybody, but I reckon it certainly will be for many, because if it could happen in this way to me, it means there were universal laws that allowed and made it to be so, and those universal laws will also apply to other people aswell, though the details may differ. Also notice that you don't necessarily have to go to the same degree of confusion and despair I found myself in. I was a lunatic. And with this guide, I hope to prevent in you the same degree of total confused disorientation Good luck

Question: Beloved Jesus, what would you say about fasting (in a sense of totally abstaining from food) as a way to accelerate one's spiritual growth? The idea to pass through the 40 day fasting (while totally abstaining from food) - as you did when you were in the desert, and as other spiritual seekers, ascetics and hermits did - inspires me a lot. So the question is: can it give some benefit or harm? And how one could abstain from food without harming himself? Answer from ascended master Jesus through Kim Michaels: (May 26, 2011) I strongly discourage anyone from trying to go for 40 days while totally abstaining from food. There is simply no way to do this without harming your body, and there is not spiritual benefit from doing so. It is a misunderstanding that I spent 40 days in the desert without eating anything. You can take two basic approaches to any aspect of my life. One is the literal approach, where you think the Bible is the literal word of God, and thus anything mentioned in the scriptures happened exactly as described. Through this approach, you will never understand the true meaning of my teachings and example. The other approach is to realize that even so-called actual events from the scriptures have a deeper meaning—and thus you must always look beyond the literal interpretation. So what is the deeper meaning of me spending 40 days in the wilderness? You might see this in terms of the contrast between two environments. You have human society, an environment in which most everything is controlled by man-made rules and ideas. Then you have the "wilderness," an environment in which things are not controlled by man but are closer to a natural state. So the symbolism is that I withdrew for a time from the world of man-made rules, doctrines, beliefs and ideas. Yet doing this does not necessarily mean going out in nature. You can do this almost anywhere, as long as you can be in a quiet space and turn down outside distractions. You can even do it in the middle of a city, although it is a bit more difficult because of the more intense mass consciousness. Fasting does not necessarily have anything to do with food. I "fasted" by emptying my mind from man-made ideas, thereby creating an empty space that made my mind open to intuitive impressions from a higher source, namely my I Will Be Presence and my spiritual teachers. Do you see my point? What is the purpose for which you want to fast? If it is to gain a more spiritual state of consciousness, then it is not necessary to abstain from food. It is necessary to abstain from certain types of heavier food, such as meat, and to abstain from eating too much food. However, it is not necessary to abstain from all food, and it can indeed be counterproductive to do so. What will it take for you to have a more spiritual experience? Everything in your life revolves around your attention. If your attention is on worldly affairs, it is more difficult to have a spiritual experience. So in order to get a higher experience, you need to take your attention away from worldly affairs, including the physical body. Yet the simple fact is that abstaining from food is not the best way to take your attention away from the body. Most people who fast by totally abstaining from food find this to be such a difficult experience, that they end up putting more and more attention on the body the longer they fast. So the true meaning of fasting is to take your attention away from worldly matters and focus it on spiritual matters. Yet even this must be understood more deeply. For there are many people who think that focusing on spiritual matters means studying a spiritual teaching with the intellect or practicing a spiritual technique. This is not necessarily invalid at a certain level of the path, but when you come to the higher levels, "fasting" truly means to empty your mind of everything and attuning it to your Presence. Fasting means focusing on experiencing pure awareness, so you truly become the open door for the Presence. Meaning you have no preconceived opinions that color the impressions from the Presence. You cannot do this at the lower levels of the path, but at higher levels this is your main goal. What has happened over the centuries is two things. First of all, Christianity was hijacked by literalists, who thought everything should be interpreted literally—according to their definition of a literal interpretation. Secondly, during the Middle Ages, Christianity became hijacked by people who focused on life as suffering. You will see that in most art from that period, I am depicted as hanging on the cross, suffering greatly. So instead of focusing on my positive teaching – that I came to give all people life and that more abundantly – Christianity became focused on the few hours I suffered on the cross. And then came the belief that it was my suffering on the cross that "bought" humankind's salvation by somehow compensating for people's sins. You will easily see that this was influenced by the age-old belief that sacrificing an animal – by bleeding it to death – could pay for one's sins. A belief that was in complete opposition to my true teaching, but which nevertheless came to dominate the view of my mission. As a result, it came to be believed that God – who was seen as good – required that you suffer before you could be free from sin. The insanity of this belief can be seen by considering the following. You have done something that caused suffering to another human being. You acknowledge this, and now you voluntarily put yourself through a process that causes suffering to yourself, thinking this second suffering will somehow compensate for the first suffering. Yet in today's world, you know that everything is energy. What you did to another, created a certain amount of misqualified energy. When you cause yourself to suffer, you create even more misqualified energy. Two wrongs do not make a right, because misqualified energy cannot eliminate misqualified energy. The only way to compensate for one's sins is to produce positive energy, which can indeed transform the misqualified. Yet it can only do so if both sides have truly forgiven, which is why I emphasized forgiving all who have harmed you. So my point is that over the centuries, the focus on suffering caused people to think that since abstaining from food causes you to suffer, this was a way to pay for your sins. And thus, has come the added belief that the more you suffer, the more you pay back sins. And this was then tied in with the idea that I fasted for 40 days, and some people then came to see this as the ultimate form of suffering through fasting. Some have even thought that if they died trying to fast for 40 days, they would surely be rewarded in heaven. They thought, "I will not surely die." Do you see that this is a complete misunderstanding? First of all, trying to abstain from all food for 40 days would kill many people, and suicide is not the way to a higher state of consciousness. Secondly, those who can survive fasting for that long, will end up focusing most of their attention on the pains of the body, which takes your attention away from being the open door for the Presence. So what is gained by this? And thirdly, deliberately causing yourself to suffer will produce misqualified energy that will not help your spiritual growth. Concerning the 40 days, it should be considered that 2,000 years ago, people did not conceive of numbers the same way you do today. In today's world, most schoolchildren understand that you can count to very high numbers. How many of you tried to count to one thousand when you were children? Yet 2,000 years ago, most adults could not count to one thousand, let alone conceive of this number. So back then, people simply could not conceive of the kind of numbers you today use to calculate the national debt. And even today, you will see that people have trouble visualizing how much money a country like the United States actually owes—it is simply too big to relate to anything in "real life." You may have heard that animals cannot count any higher than two. The same goes for some native peoples, who distinguish between one and two, but anything above two is seen as "many." Well, there was a somewhat similar mechanism at play 2,000 years ago. People could count to a dozen, but anything above that was seen as "many." The words used for that has since then been translated to the western "score," but even the word "score" was originally used about an indeterminate amount and it was only in more modern times that a precise number was attached to it. So when the Bible says that I fasted for 40 days, the actual number was not 40. It was simply a "large" number of days I spent in the wilderness. And here is another point. I went into the wilderness – and I did actually go away from human settlements – in order to have a spiritual experience, and I stayed only long enough to have that experience. During that time, I ate whatever food I could find, so as to keep my body just comfortable enough that I did not have to put my attention on the body, but could keep my attention free from outer distractions to focus within. So if you try to imitate this by forcing yourself to fast for 40 days, you will actually put yourself in a frame of mind, that will make it more difficult for you to have a true spiritual experience. Because you will not simply be open to letting the experience happen at its own pace—you will be seeking to force it. And what you seek to force, you will be pushing ahead of you, as the donkey pushing the carrot hanging from a stick in front of its nose. Any time – and I mean ANY time – you seek to force a spiritual experience, you will not have a true experience. Instead, you will open yourself up to lower forces, who can indeed give you an experience that is far beyond your ordinary state of consciousness, but it is not a true spiritual experience because it does not make you the open door for your Presence or ascended beings. Over the centuries, many people have attempted to take heaven by force and have opened themselves up to lower forces, thinking they had had a genuine spiritual experience. That is why fasting should not be attempted by people who are not balanced and who do not have both personal protection and spiritual discernment (discernment of spirits). Do you see that fasting can very easily become an ego game? The ego wants to do something extreme, because it either wants to set itself apart from others, or it even thinks this will earn it points in the eyes of God. So, in conclusion, the way to fast is to take your attention away from whatever draws it outwards. You need to empty your mind so you can be an open door for the Presence. The only way to do this is to approach fasting the same way as you approach everything else on the path: through always striving for balance. This is simply the only way for you to pass the initiation of encountering the tempter, as you will do whenever you rise to a higher level of consciousness, and as you saw that I was tempted by the devil after my however many days in the wilderness. You also need to see that it is not constructive to take what I am saying here as a reason to withdraw from society and isolate yourself. It is valid to withdraw for a time in order to establish your inner connection to your Presence. Yet once you begin to have this connection, you can now get involved in society without losing it. And in the Golden Age, we need people who can be involved with society while being the open doors for ideas from the ascended realm. In today's age, I would say that the most important way to fast is NOT by abstaining from food. The best way to fast is to eat enough to keep your body a non-issue and then keep your mind away from all of the "information pollution" with which modern people are bombarded. It is not the physical body that is the greatest hindrance for modern people; it is the fact that your minds are overstimulated by the information that comes at you from so many sources. So the best way to fast is to turn off this stream of external information. And then turn off the internal bombardment, caused by the mind creating problems and then trying to convince you that you have to solve them. It is all a matter of monitoring where your attention goes. The kingdom of God is within you, so you will not enter it as long as your attention is constantly focused outside the point of stillness within you. So try fasting from "information food" for a while. The good news is that abstaining from keeping up with what your friends are doing on Facebook won't kill you—even after 40 days.

Sigh.. Ok whatever. I was gonna reply @Key Elements anyways.. I was gonna say that in most of the cases the stages are already about where the consciousness level is rather than how the situation looks or free from the manifestations in display. As if, take the example of committing suicide. If you look at the same act from turquoise stage it is a complete different story versus where everything turns into offense whenever what guru says is completely misunderstood because of the mismatch of the consciousness levels of the related parties. History is full of examples of what the enlightened beings are through while trying to awaken the society.

Patanjali says in first sutra Athayoganushasanam. translation- NOW THE DISCIPLINE OF YOGA. First try to understand the word "now". This "now" indicates to the state of mind. If you are disillusioned, if you are hopeless, if you have completely become aware of the futility of all desires, if you see your life as meaningless - whatsoever you have been doing up to now has simply fallen dead nothing remains in the future, you are in absolute despair - what Kierkegaard calls anguish. If you are in anguish, suffering, not knowing what to do, not knowing where to go, not knowing to whom to look, just on the verge of madness or suicide or death, your whole pattern of life suddenly has become futile. If this moment has come, Patanjali says, NOW THE DISCIPLINE OF YOGA. Only now you can understand the science of yoga, the discipline of yoga. If that moment has not come, you can go on studying yoga, you can become a great scholar, but you will not be a yogi. You can write theses upon it, you can give discourses upon it, but you will not be a yogi. The moment has not come for you. Intellectually you can become interested, through your mind you can be related to yoga, but yoga is nothing if it is not a discipline. Yoga is not a shastra; it is not a scripture. It is a discipline. It is something you have to do. It is not curiosity; it is not philosophic speculation. It is deeper than that. It is a question of life and death. If the moment has come where you feel that all directions have become confused, all roads have disappeared; the future is dark, and every desire has become bitter, and through every desire you have known only disappointment; all movement into hopes and dreams has ceased. ~OSHO @okulele Read more about 'real meaning' of Yoga http://oshosearch.net/Convert/Articles_Osho/Yoga_The_Alpha_and_the_Omega_Volume_1/Osho-Yoga-The-Alpha-and-the-Omega-Volume-1-00000001.html http://oshosearch.net/Convert/Articles_Osho/Yoga_The_Alpha_and_the_Omega_Volume_1/Osho-Yoga-The-Alpha-and-the-Omega-Volume-1-index.html

" Meaning is so important that when life loses meaning, suicide commonly ensues. When life loses meaning, we first go into depression; when life becomes sufficiently meaningless we lose it all together. Force has transient goals; when those goals are reached, the emptiness of meaning-lessness remains. Power, on the other hand, motivates us endlessly. If our lives are dedicated, to enhancing the welfare of everyone we contact, our lives can never lose meaning. If the purpose of our life, on the other hand, is financial success, what happens after it's been attained? This is one of the primary causes of depression in middle-aged men and women." David Hawkins on life purpose.

1. a suicide bomber, after his death, will be in "heaven" and get his 72 virgins. 2. heaven with gardens, fruits, milk-lakes (Quran/Bible version of Heaven) exists. about # 1 first. How can this be? the bomber is claiming so many innocent lives - how can such a person go to heaven? The answer: he goes to his version of heaven. We know that from God's point of view, there is no good/evil - it's all one, no distinctions So what appears to us in our experience is what we expect (law of attraction) What really drives this manifestation to reality is the BELIEF in it. We expect to die when we go in the water and cannot breath, or jump off a sky-scraper... (sounds silly, i know) but this expectation is another word for blind-belief, without a shred of a doubt... most suicide bombers/terrorists - especially in Afghanistan/Iraq etc are BRAINWASHED by another, promising heaven/72 virgins in the afterlife if they do this deed for the sake of God/Allah what we must realize is that these persons reach levels of belief that is unbroken, it is a 100% surety for them. some of these were taught when they were young kids... they have been grown up as lamb for slaughterING - so to them, it is an absolute truth that the end result is heaven their consiousness is clear - there is no guilt. only guilt needs to be gotten rid of. guilt/good/bad feelings are all illusiory... so provided that they have 100% belief in the end result, that is what they will manifest/see after death. that due to his/her deed, she/he is now in heaven (in the way it is consturcted in their mind - with other souls also living in that place jsut as others live among us in this dream of the "world" ) and in that construct of heaven, he/she will live eternally - he/she may never recognize the true nature/essence of us (may eventually) but that is the reality in which she/he lives after death AS THEIR MIND EXPECTS IT TO also. to those who practice law of attraction/manifestation. it only works if you have undying belief in the process not just that, if i think about being rich or getting money outta nowhere, it will happen. if you somehow became aware of the mechanics of this, and did believe as strongly as you do about dying if jumping outta building, then you will manifest that reality infront of you almost instantly about # 2 if one takes the pious/normal route to death and again, she/he is a believer of the heaven promised by Quran/bible - then that is where she/he will dwell allow me to ask you this. sure all that would/could be another construct of reality which is all illusiory - but given the option, would you not take it? that you can never die - live eternally in bliss and harmony - live with whoever you wish/will, marry or whatever as many women as you please (because that's the law of the land - in heaven, as we are told and as is constructed in your mind) in short: one having not a firm enough believe may not get this version of heaven after life, it is ultimately our beliefs which define our reality very important to note that this promised heaven is still illusiory but who will complain if one lives in eternal illusion if there is no pain, hungery, violence and nothing but fun,sex,food, no disease, no dirt, peace the higher level of full transesnedant out of the illusion to the god-head / oneness state is still the most higher level but this path/end still awaits to those souls who would be having this experinince knowing reality as all possiblities that can be, and all are now - then these states i describe above absoultely do exist. nothing can not exist. just the road-way, pathway to there needs to be taken - mechanism and belief is the key