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@Butters Yes and I think it's because I feel they don't have a say, they don't have a voice, they are completely at the mercy of man so therefore very vulnerable. Although I do feel the same empathy when a baby is harmed or somebody that commits suicide, so I'm guessing it's the vulnerability aspect of it that leads to these emotions (for me personally). That being said, the suffering I inflict on myself is not healthy and needs to be transcended.

For some strange reason, I can't add this post to the original post. The edit button is missing. This is response #5. There are many articles I read since yesterday. I'm posting the notes. The commentary is mostly found inside of the notes. There is a lot of research on the subject. The most defining authority would have been the European Union mandating a maximum of 48 hours a week. What other authority can you get? I've tried looking into the World Health Organization, a branch within the United Nations, for data on this; however, there isn't. Regarding my question on working 56 hours a week, the answer would have to be no. The limit would be 48. That's 9 hours and 36 minutes Monday to Friday or working 8 hours a day Monday to Saturday. Again with authority, this is a level below international organizations. An army of research scientists has stated that working beyond 55+ hours a week is very bad. The sample size is 600,000+ individuals. This is the closest approximation of truth outside of the physical sciences. This Fortune article is fascinating. It's a long read; however, it's very worth it. Some 30-year-olds have the same physical problems as individuals who are 50+ inside of Silicon Valley. It's disheartening that the vast majority of individuals are suffering from preventable heart problems. Many of these are choosing to do this to themselves. For Rosenstein, who co-created many things such as Google Drive and the Facebook like button, he works only 50 hours a week. His net worth is $150 million. It's yet another example that you can accomplish great professional success without selling your soul to the devil. Additionally, an incredibly useful article from Forbes gives an account to his daily routine. https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliversmith/2018/04/26/how-to-boss-it-like-justin-rosenstein-cofounder-of-asana/#9fccff4457b9 Some interesting activities he does: He sleeps 10 PM to 7 AM. An incredible 9 hours. Jeff Bezos himself sleeps 8 hours a day. He meditates, does yoga, runs, journals His phone is set on airplane mode and grayscale, so he's not distracted by it. Five glasses of water and ~10 supplements. I don't know what his supplements are. I [try to] keep the first few hours of my day meeting-free (and my whole day meeting-free on Wednesdays) to 1) set my work intentions for the day and order my to-do list and 2) get some “deep work” done, work that requires getting into the flow. "Methods-wise: I try to operate according to a work-rest fractal: taking a short meditation break every hour, a longer break (a walk outside) in the middle of the day, a day of rest between sprints, and longer breaks between months of hard work." Uninstalled some apps from his phone (social media, news, email) because they were taking too much of his attention At home, he lives in an intentional community called Agape (the Greek word for unconditional love in action) with 14 friends He recommends reading 15 Commitments of Consciousness. Every member within his company is encouraged to read it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23275060-15-commitments-of-conscious-leadership Recommends The Untethered Soul as a great secular introduction to many of the insights that are underly spiritual/wisdom traditions. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1963638.The_Untethered_Soul The first paragraph is interesting because careers such as investment banking are notorious for incredibly long 80+ hour workloads; however, individuals still report happiness. The link to Sam Altman's blog is also interesting. He's the president of Y Combinator, arguably the world's greatest company accelerator, and he gives his insight into the dark side of Silicon Valley. For Startups Annonymous, it's interesting to show the dark side of the Valley. I was recently on there, and the founder is correct. Many of the anonymous posts talk about backstabbing, depression, cheating on significant others, and a wide variety of other dark stories. There are many stories on suicide within the Valley. The truth is that showing weakness is considered a massive problem. The reality is that you can only bottle up so much stress and emotional weight before it all explodes violently. When you look at Elon Musk and other icons within the tech industry, there is an uncountable number of people who failed. Even for the individuals who have everything right, they may not make it. The individuals on the top showcase a sense of survivorship bias. Why would you sacrifice everything for a chance that is smaller than 1%? There's a 23.5 minute-video from CNN. I highly recommend watching it. After watching it, my insight on success leading to happiness deepened. It's also interesting how the individual described in the video was so great at masking his delibating bipolar disorder while working at eBay. An overwhelming majority of founders in Silicon Valley has had struggled with severe anxiety and clinical depression. Success does not correlate to happiness. Things to Consider: I am glad to know it's possible to achieve professional success by working less than 50 hours a week. If you can manage your time well, delegate, and optimize your physical and mental health, you can do it. I am also glad to know my question of working 56 hours a week has been scientifically disproven. The European Union has disproved it. Technically, one can work for an additional eight more hours. The EU mandates overwork at a maximum of 48 hours a week. Since 56 hours of work is terrible, 48 hours can do. Now, if one were to work for 48 hours a week, as an aspiring academic and entrepreneur, what is considered work? Assuming you are a computer science student and you run a YouTube channel about computer science, is the blog time considered working? Instead of video games, you learn a language. That's cognitively demanding. Is that working? If you have a channel with unrelated content such as comedy, is that considered working? If you watch videos, read articles and books about computer science, is that considered working? When you socialize with your Computer Science club, is that considered working? When you shower and you think about computer science, is that working? haha It's difficult to determine the boundaries of what considers work and the other fun. Could it be that you do DELIBERATE PRACTICE for 40 hours and the remaining 8 hours you work on your blog and watch computer science? If that is so, what about engaging in other cognitively demanding activities such as learning a new language? At least, I'm satisfied that my two main questions have been answered beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll paraphrase Ramana Maharshi and say that the real suicide is not knowing who you really are.

@winterknightwhat is suicide

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/opinion/sunday/suicide-ketamine-depression.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage Very interesting! The general population seems to be slowly getting more and more open towards therapeutic usage of psychedelics substances. I think western culture is hoping on the right tracks. I'd love to see where we'll be in another 20 years.

@thehero Wow thehero, thanks so much for sharing this. We are all here for you ❤️ Awareness of this is your first step so well done! That's progress in itself. I empathize with you completely. Now I'm no therapist or psychologist please understand that but I will give you advise based on my own experiences with this but somebody like @Solace or @Nahm will be hopefully able to give you a deeper understanding. This ultimately comes down to unconditional love and acceptance. For yourself. I don't mean that vainly. I don't agree that suffering will be of any help whatsoever in this department. You need to get to the root of the issue especially as you mentioned suicide. Could you possibly look into therapy? Preferably a therapist that specialises in the humanistic approach. Is that an avenue you could explore?

I saw a documentary about placebo effects. A guy ate his placebo pills to commit suicide. He was sent to the hospital where he almost died, the doctors had no idea why because there was nothing wrong with him physically...but he was dying. In the end he didn´t die fortunately but it´s crazy what power your mind can have over your body.

@Anna1Ouch! way to shut down this alternative medicine method with one quick search! I don't want to call out "Confirmation bias!" but you have not looked at it in detail (potential benefits, as even medications have their risks/side effects) However, I hope not to offend you as i respect your belief/opinion and personal experience. The reason i wanted your take is because of your specific background. (I have no idea what it would be like to have MS for 27 yrs, and i feel very blessed in my lack of health related issues thus far) Wim Hof created this method after losing his wife to suicide, being left with like 3 kids and finding a way to deal with his depression. What i found astounding, other than the many world records Wim Hof broke, is how he was able to prove how to consciously control the autonomic nervous systems. A college took him and some people he trained for a few weeks with the wim hof method into a lab to be injected with a bacterium supposed to produce harsh cold-like symptoms and were able to feel nothing (show no symptoms). I practiced this method a few years ago and it was challenging but beneficial. I no longer make a habit out of it but i recommend for someone not in good physical/psychological health (do your research if interested, many detailed youtube videos on proper technique and necessary precautions ) I would have disagree here Anna. All are mental health disorders. I am not so knowledgeable on the diagnosing of these disorders, but mood and thought disorders sound like "depression" and sure there may be a good chance it carries on through genes/dna (predisposed) to certain risks but this doesn't mean the main cause didn't come from environment/nurture/culture @EvilAngelAwesome hope you do check Wim Hof out! Some great documentaries on youtube. It reminds me of shamanic breathing in a sense and when i practiced it, it felt like it gave the brain (not just in the head) a good "reset" Wish you the best!

I've been diagnosed with Bipolar 1 and I'm on medication for it. My 2 severe manic episodes were both heavily centered around spirituality. Both times it felt like I was tripping, though I've never taken psychedelics before. It was scary at times, but I also experienced the greatest highs of my life. I truly felt like I had known God and seen the devil in myself. If you truly have this insight into the nature of yourself, it's the most absolutely terrifying and beautiful thing you will ever experience. However, I wouldn't wish this condition upon anyone. It's not exactly like a trip in that you're never sure if it will end or if you will lose your mind permanently and feel as though you're living in a different dimension than others. I also truly believed that I was going to physically die from it. If not by suicide then by sleep deprivation.

I choose to not live in denial. It's extremely important that if you have been properly diagnosed by a psychiatrist with Bipolar that you're medication compliant. It's irresponsible to tell ppl otherwise. Unless you would like them becoming manic or suicidally depressed on your shoulders? I'm a suicide surviver -year 2009. So, don't lecture me.

This article is completely biased and you will not find any relevant testimonies to uphold that claim It was made by an egoistical reporter that loved taking down spirituality, the easy way, claiming that the guru is some cult leader Vague claims and accusations , some scary halloween pictures of bentinho One fact, a student of his commited suicide,..,how many students do modern gurus have.? Hundreds, a suicide is a tragedy but people commit suicide from all walks of life, its absolutely ridiculous to demonize a guru for the suicide of one of his students He fled america? He left for personal bizz and he came back after that, like wtf so sensationalist You know this article is bullshit, if you read it, you can not tell one single concrete point after it that makes you go "oh this bentinho guy is horrible", you can recall one clear vivid point that upholds the claim, Its just brewing a vague and accusing vibe, histy misty scaredy tones, its bogus, absolute bogus If one single reporter, one single article is all it takes for you to discredit a spiritual guru maybe you're not as spiritual as you think you are, the ego and the media go hand in hand for destroying spirituality credibility, if thats all it takes be ready to wash down all your spiritual beliefs down the toilet real fast And make no mistake, ego dominated industries like the media are out to discredit spiritual practices

@Anna What are the panic attacks like in intensity and duration? I've had panic attacks in conjunction with suicidal ideation in the past. Whenever I have had a panic attack I just keep hyperventilating non-stop for 20-30 mins. What you should do about it really depends on where you intuitively feel the panic attacks to be coming from. My advice to you is to just examine where/why the panic attacks are arising and then decide from there. My panic attacks were coming from a deep pit of neurosis which almost made me dead serious about committing suicide. Obviously that doesn't sound like the case for you but just check that you are really convinced that your panic attacks are coming from a place of purification rather than a place of deep despair. Because people can experience deep shit when their neurosis resurfaces and is being cleared up from mindfulness. Just make sure you've investigated your psychiatric health. For your panic attacks, are there any triggers? Any particular topics or ideas which send your mind into a crazy spiral? Are there any triggers for the uncontrollable surge of emotions you feel? Do the panic attacks arise completely randomly? In reference to my first paragraph the duration, intensity and causes of your panic attacks completely define the context and significance of your panic attacks and hence they completely define what you should do about them.

@winterknight Wonderful work!! I did only read very little of this thread... I hope not this thread magically disappears from this forum before I can read it all. I realize that this journey is very long and im just at the beginning... What is the best expectation that prepares me for this journey? My preliminary answer: I should expect "hell of hell, no mercy, worst case scenario, slow suicide, etc", essentially expecting the toughest journey, only being able to push through with my current will and curiosity for truth. This expectation makes it easier for me to evaluate what I really want (Why suffer through hell?)... is it a valid expectation? Will alignment with this expectation (Me being in the second ox picture) prevent me from quitting in the toughest of times?

What do you think of the 'new age' phenomenon. The video I linked earlier is a 'new ager' so to speak. It's got its own dogma and religious qualities that are to be taken on faith or belief. The ACIM crowd sometimes crosses over into some of these concepts. The entire new age doctrine revolves around ascended masters who are actually aliens of the 11th dimension, or Arcturians, and there is a conspiracy about Atlantis, Ley Lines, the pyramids, and it all culminates in being the missing pieces in a huge conspiracy over the unsolved mysteries over the ancient world. Teal Swan has a huge following, she has had several followers commit suicide, she has promoted suicidal ideation as a 'reset button', claims she can hear tectonic plates moving, I could keep going. That being said, she has some decent practical psychotherapeutic advice, but definitely is not a mentally stable person. She has an 'ashram' in Costa Rica, her followers are tattooed with her symbol. She bashes basically every guru in existence, which is fine, but highly hypocritical in that she breaks the same rules she pushes for, like sleeping with your followers. Matt Kahn makes a similar show, where he makes predictions that don't come true, then makes an unverifiable excuse of how it actuality DID come true. The new age community at large cannot agree on a single narrative, though I'm sure something is in the works or already exists. They all have different interpretations, different alien races, but they all claim to 'intuit' it or get a 'download' from source. Wtf is happening here? All of these new agers seem to hand out good practical advice at times, then just go off into totally unverifiable and fantastic information...why not stop at the practical advice? Not to mention the amount of money they charge, hundreds of dollars for 'starseed' activation and other craziness. When I question these things, I'm bombarded by a weaponized version of spiral dynamics, pigeon holed into a place of 'you've not reached that stage of consciousness' to understand. There is a corruption, so to speak, in many spiritual circles and communities, it seems an inherent part of every human system, corruption exists or someone intentionally benefits from the misfortune of others, even on a path to God so to speak.

@brugluiz Spirituality is about facing your death, but it's often used as an excuse to justify the fear of living life. @vela3 Not everyone lives in the USA though. If I ever consider suicide imminent due to lack of money or impending homelessness, I'll give them a call and see if they can get me a place to live and provisions. Not doing that just yet since whatever accomodations I get would likely be worse than this corner of my parents' living room, but it is nice to know that my country is so against suicide that you can ask for help and they will help you. Even if that results in a 72 hour psychiatric hold, that actually helps your disability benefits claims, so I heard. @Baotrader Noticed you're from Vietnam, have you though about running away and living in the jungle? https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vietnam-jungle-men-incredible-story-ho-van-lang-boy-who-lived-wild-41-years-1569459

National suicide hotline 800 273 8255 24/7 free and confidential support for people in distress, crisis, and prevention resources for you and your loved ones. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is a national network of local crisis centers that provides free and confidential emotional support to people in suicidal crisis or emotional distress 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We're committed to improving crisis services and advancing suicide prevention by empowering individuals, advancing professional best practices, and building awareness.

National suicide hotline 800 273 8255 24/7 free and confidential support for people in distress, crisis, and prevention resources for you and your loved ones. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is a national network of local crisis centers that provides free and confidential emotional support to people in suicidal crisis or emotional distress 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We're committed to improving crisis services and advancing suicide prevention by empowering individuals, advancing professional best practices, and building awareness. suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

@Mikael89 Quantum suicide..this reminds me of this one mechanism I would use in the past when I had these thoughts as a teenager, I would ask myself what if I took my life now only to return and have to start the whole series, every phase, every moment, all over again? Precisely like when you die in a video game and have to return to the first level. This theory would often stop these thoughts for me because I couldn't even bear to think about going through the same pain over & over again. At this point in my life I have come to Love even those things that were once painful and hard to grip for they have only brought me to this path I am on now. I have learned so much from turmoil & traumatic experience that there's no reason at all not to love it or appreciate it for it was a true experience that only ultimately helped me see the beauty of God that lies in everything.

Call a suicide hotline. Thats a permanent decision for a temporary problem. Dealing with your parents is one of the most difficult things for a human to accomplish but you can do it. I am doing it too.

During September I was thinking on suicide and I would say that a lot of introspection was putting me into a downward spiral. I'm not saying introspection is bad, but it can make you lose touch with reality (please, don't start with ponderings like "but reality doesn't even exist"). Taking action is also a key point. I don't mean just taking action like working or going to the gym, but also meeting new people, partying, going to new places and even doing materialistic stuff (like facing your fears). They say non-duality is the ultimate truth, but I think it can mislead people. Non-duality can be seen as something that will bring us happiness or whatever and that's why we call ourselves spiritual seekers. We're seeking for something that we already have, no matter our circumstances. It's the second thread about a person wanting to commit suicide I see here. Sometimes it's important to be more grounded and talk to people in a way they can understand, even if they are attached to their ego, or if they have a religion, or if they're atheists or whatever. If a person wants to make friends, tell them: "make friends" instead of "you have to focus on Being in order to realize you don't need friends." If a person wants to make money, tell them: "it's okay to have the desire of making money" instead of "you need to be aware of low consciousness patterns and not think about money, but just about high values." If a person wants to have sex, tell them: "it's okay to have casual relationships" instead of "you're being too shallow if you want to have sex." If a person wants happiness, tell them: "it's okay to make something for your happiness" instead of "Tony Robbins are all about Orange evil stuff and you shouldn't listen to him. Overcome your addictions by sitting and doing nothing for weeks that you'll find happiness." Be more grounded guys in order to help people who are depressed or suffering. I know many of you, including Leo, have advanced stuff to teach, but sometimes I myself feel like an alien that can't understand what enlightenment or happiness is. It seems I'm losing something very important. Maybe I am, but it doesn't mean my life is worthless. I learned a lot with my suicidal thoughts and I hope you can learn something from me (if you will). Here in Brazil we call it "ser pé no chão." By the way, Karma Yoga seems to be a very good thing in order to overcome depression.

Teal Swan is not enlightened. If you look more closely at her, she writes diatribes against people she feels wronged her, such as exes and demonizes them in public. Then look at her fanatical followers and how mentally unstable they are - how they go after anyone who criticizes her in droves. There is always scandal around her and many people hurt by her. I'm not sure why people like Teal Swan keep getting brought up around here as examples of enlightenment, though like any teacher, she has some good qualities. "Teal Swan, an emerging cult leader, claims she is a multi-dimensional Arcturian alien working with 11 other aliens in an “intergalactic Green Peace” type organization. She says she has x-ray vision and hearing, that she can inject herself into people’s brainstems to revive them and can hear tectonic plates moving. She has a massive following, many of whom, called “Tealers,” tattoo themselves with her symbol. Teal claims suicide is a “reset button” and that “death is delicious.” At least two of her followers have already committed suicide. Teal also claims to have suffered 13-years of abuse in a child-murdering Mormon Satanic Cult where she was routinely tortured, sewn into a corpse for 12 hours and made to torture other children." https://medium.com/@bescofield/the-gucci-guru-inside-teal-swans-posh-cult-36168edaf62f

Fucking money. Seems like a lot of you are trying to help him but missing the point and seeing it as just an emotional, psychological problem. But sometimes, people are so far down into physical challenges and financial scarcity that emotional/spiritual development can't really help them improve, only cope. And if fear of death is overcome, and there is no foreseeable way out of constant biological suffering, suicide can look like an option. I obviously don't know the nuances of his situation, but I know my own suicidal thoughts would stop if I just was provided with a safe and comfortable place to live and quiet place to sleep. From that springboard I imagine it would be possible to self-actualize financially, but when dealing with chronic sleep deprivation all I can really do is suffer through existence. If the OP has a way to meet basic needs and reject the role of family provider thrust upon him, why kill himself? From my point of view people end their lives for the stupidest of reasons. The things that bother me most are what feels like blatantly obvious short-sightedness and inefficiency. On the microscale, people feeling depressed over things that can easily be changed by changing their mental perspectives, their diet, physical body practices, and emotional self-hacking. On the macro-scale, a capitalist world where productivity is higher than ever, but individual survival still depends upon somehow making money. On the personal level, the feeling that there is nothing I can do except tell depressed people 'you're full of shit, get over yourself,' decry the detriments of capitalism, and feel too burdened by my own suffering to help others escape theirs.

@Baotrader I had a major insight from Byron Katie about why suicide doesn’t help in ending suffering. It’s because there will be no ‘you’ to realise that you’re dead. And so, in a twisted fate of luck, you will live in eternal suffering. But anyway, if that is your decision, then I respect it. Good luck my friend.

I know I shouldnt interact with people when in the lower self because I'm just miserable, cant focus on them at all,will pity myself or if I can fake it for a while they will at least definitely know something is up. The problem is I'm in my lower self 99% of the time. I just sit in my room lonely, not motivated to do anything. I can use meditation or sedona to release these negative emotions and it will work for about an hour and then they come back. Or maybe I'm feeling good for a day and I think this is it, I finally made progress. And the next day I'm back to zero. There was a time where I just hated work days and on the weekend I could relax and have fun with a videogame. This is not possible anymore, I'm suffering on the weekends now too. I cant bring myself to even play a video game or watch a movie or really do anything. I talked about this with my parents and they are very worried about the direction my life is heading, alone, no relationship, smoking a lot, really no happiness in my life. I can tolerate going to work for now but I wonder for how long. If I had to describe how I feel its just wave after wave of sadness. It doesnt matter if I'm conscious of it or not, the waves come. Its just my normal way of being. And I dont know if thats really a way to live life. At my worst times I think about suicide a lot I just cant sustain a normal level of happiness.

Is suicide justified?