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I think in the eyes of God all is equal. My my perspective is more like the following video........ Not that there isn't necessarily value in people/animals. Inequality, not sure what that even means, if reality/being just is. Got to be some element to it, I think it's mostly political, thought it was interesting listening to the history of the Peloponnesian War that the Athenian Democrats complained about exacting tribute from smaller states, "thinking that because we are a democracy, that they are our equals." Funny part later in the book when many of the men were freaking out from a particular town(more like village in modern numbers) allied to Athens, under-siege by arrow fire, trying to commit suicide with the arrow heads. Before they were all killed, and the women and children sold into slavery and the town turned into a colony of Thebes, didn't mess around then. Hilarious that they made a fairly well, although not well enough put together argument beforehand. The clincher being yeah Thebes sold out Greece to the Persians, but you guys were offered the opportunity to remain neutral, maybe it would have made a difference, maybe not.

I am confused about how animals view the world. Leo says, "don't fix what isn't broken" referring to e.g your cat, that you don't have to teach them about enlightenment. However. I have read some stories about elephants carrying traumatic events for years after someone dies, or they get mistreated etc. Or even a dolphin who committed suicide by drowning himself after they had sex with a human and the human just left them. Heartbroken the Dolphin swam to the bottom of the sea. (If you want I can post sources) So how do you explain this? If one is enlightened, then why carry lifelong trauma? Or commit suicide after the deed?

@CreamCat good video. On a side note, Teal Swan is certainly somewhat interesting to me. I've only seen a couple of videos by her. Her suicide one was pretty cool. I don't mind her as a "new ager" compared to people like Ralph Smart.

@Gryner lol yes I had a similar experience, i was having constant spiritual experiences before i found actualized and the stuff on here just caused me psychosis, i didn't;t go to the hospital but i was going to see a therapist if i didn't get better. Except your feeling like god and fearless part, thats how I felt before but it felt amazing not like i was intentionally trying to kill myself for no reason lol, from this site i stated to believe i should commit suicide as soon as possible and that is enlightenment. which was 180 from the profound mystical experience life i was having before where every moment was like this profound dream i was having so idk, maybe he is just difficult to understand and is saying something in a way that we are having troublee understanding. but the way he says it makes it seem to me like he is saying that i should literally commit suicide right now and that is what everyone should do

in fact enlightenment seems anti-spiritual it sucks for me. i only care about spirituality aka my own individual energetic resonance at all costs, not some bullshit suicide.

@Leo Gura interesting. So what happens if you are convicted of murder. Sentenced to jail, life long. It'd be like a "game over" so what then? Do you keep being alive for the game to naturally end? Or do you commit suicide? (What would you do in this situation?) Secondly, I am just one of the characters of your game? Isn't it weird that every enlightened person sees the other person as not real? And you are just as not real as any other person? Hm. Don't think I'm ready for the truth yet.

How much does it shit in the woods? I think its a really good question, one as a 20 year spiritual practitioner have found myself blindly thinking suffering goes on more then it maybe does. I can see how this has formed a perhaps false idea of reality, and served as a reason to feel as though I have a solution to all this suffering (not to say the spiritual life and lessons can uplift or benefit humanity). Its also weighed on my heart in a belief that reality is a lot worse then maybe it actually. I mean if we are to take into account any use of happiness surveys that ask how much a person feels content for what ever reasons that feel they are content, or summarize how they feel during a question of if they are happy, who is to say thats not happy? From what I've read it seems like people stat being relatively happy/content 50-70%. Interesting though that this is across 100 or so countries (a really interesting side fact is all countries when asked what do they think is the average level of happiness of the general population, they answer 30-50% lower then reported). Its really easy to think everyone deep down is really just a mess and suffering, and perhaps it is this way, but the percentage of people that have psychological issues (anxiety, depression of all levels, bi-polar, suicide statistics, etc) It's maybe 20% of the population. Sure maybe people are "self" medicating via drugs, alcohol, and food, and what ever craving we can think of, but perhaps some of this is a projection onto a generalized whole from a spiritual slant. I mean I believe a lot of the people who get into spirituality and the ones that awakened to something greater, had a lot going on, perhaps more then the average joe, their experience of humanity may not be a actual reflection of the human condition. Im no expert, but if I had to guess the general okayness/not suffering/kinda content of the general population is 40-50%, 20-30% pretty happy (even if its not for reasons of self knowing, bliss, god recognition) and then a gradual gradation going down into the into unhappy/suffering levels. Still lots to improve, its just not what I think the people who are really suffering and seeking spirituality generally think. Again I'm talking about general feelings of ones life, not if there isn't impactful emotional moments or tragedies, I think these are more common and most people face stuff that is regarded as hardship, but I'm not sure if that makes "most" people not like their life

In the book truth vs falsehood (on leo's book list also a must read in my opinion) david hawkins talks about using muscle testing to determine truth from falsehood, you can also than pinpoint where on the universal scale of consciousness ( A scale from 1 to 1000 with the highest 10000 being enlightened avatars like the buddah, jesus christ etc, the lowest being around 10 the level of severe depression commonly followed by suicide) a person's energy is. I thought it would be interesting, to test a bunch of spiritual teachers on this scale. Anything below 200 is considered ultimately destructive (means your worse of being exposed to them to varying degrees) anything above 200 is seen as supportive of life and beneficial to all. Using testing around 70-80% of the worlds population is seen to be below 200 so it is uncommon to be over this. - Leo gura: Leo calibrated at 310 this is the level of willingness the life view is hopeful and god view is inspiring. This is a very good level for a teacher to be at it means they have overcome inner resistance and are willing to participate in life. This means actualized.org is a positive force on it's audience and generally beneficial to all who use it. -Byron Katie: calibrates at 565 the level of unconditional love, at this level love and compassion, people at this level feel near constant joy and the world is seen as an expression of love and divinity. This is the level to aspire to in a lifetime. Another interesting thing to note is the amount of people who drop down into pride ( around 180 level feeling of superiority over others) after making spiritual advances it's easy to think of yourself as special given the feedback from the outside world, which is a huge cause of a drop in consciousness for people, back to the level of pride. Below is a list of teachers with a note able drop. -Deepak Chopra - Deepak calibrates at 185 the level of pride. At this level it generally feels good and is socially encouraged, but people at pride are still vulnerable because a change in external conditions can drop them down to fear anger etc. Because of the calibration below 200 they are seen as someone to avoid. - Eckhart tolle- Eckhart calibrates at 265 the level of neutrality. At this level life view is generally neutral, a feeling of whatever happens ill be fine. The interesting thing is eckhart has dropped from 510 at the level of unconditional love, to 265. May possibly be attributed to the constant media presence/fame around him?

The mental self is an idea/ thought which arises within the field of consciousness (your true self). Killing the mental self (stilling the thoughts in mind) would result in simply being conscious of whatever remains. You create an experience of physicality from yourself (you are consciousness). Thought experience is also created from consciousness. Physical and mental experiences all arise from consciousness, they are made of the same stuff. You do not die physically because there was no physical you to begin with, it was just an idea. 'A suicide' would be the experience of the action of suicide taking place within consciousness. So yes, when you die mentally you realise there was no physical you to begin with so you simultaneously die 'physically'.

But leo (pun not intended), that cant be right. You are saying then that if I commit suicide physically then there is enlightenment. But you also say its the same as the mental aspect- so killing the mental self would result in physical death?

Sorry for this wall of text but it would mean alot to me if you read it. I cannot convey my situation in a simpler way than this. In short: Meditation have such a small effect on me im not sure there even is an effect, my spiritual life is so uneventful! - why is this and what should i do? My history with spiritual practice: Ive meditated a little/experimented the past 5 - 10 years The past year ive meditated 5 days a week, 20-50 min First i practiced chakra meditation (feeling energy flow through chakras), then moved onto som "tibetian buddhism" (watching the mind) and now went on a Vipassana retreat and done that the last year. Ive done a few psychedelic trips for spiritual growth. Ive read a few books and listened to lectures. Eat healthy and exercise regulty I´ve never had a small awakening experience or strong glimpse of non duality except on psychedelics. I hear people on this forum and elsewhere talk about experienceing the dark night or directly experienceing non duality, blizz or hearing voices etc. I´ve had nothing like that. "Just" small vibrations or warmth and some feeling of energy. For a long time i´ve tried maintaining a equanimous mind. Not seeking or rejecting any experience. My path is mine and i should not compare it to others. But to be honest I am doubting if im doing it right or if there is anything to meditation at all. It´s not like the worlds most contributing humans (writers, inventors, musicians or simply great people, great parents) are enlightened or even have a meditation practice. The mind/ego is great at justifying ones action in retroperspective. I know I do, I tell myself meditation is great because it´s now grown to be a part of my identity...which im trying to see is seperate from "me" and me doesnt exist. And im very open to this possebility...i just havenet had any experience that points to it. Even at my Vipassana retreat where I followed the schedule 90% meditating 10 hours for 10 days straight I didn´t get any noteworthy experience. Sure i became alot more aware of my body. Like when i drank coffe one day it felt like taking speed. But nothing non dual, nothing to hint that I don´t exist, that reality is infinite etc But it did make me more concsious. It did enable me to take life more "lightly" and at the same time make more out of it. It changed so many things in me but in such a subtle way that im not able to pinpoint one of them. And that´s mostly why I keep meditating, because it feels like it has an overall posetive impact on my life. And it does still hint at something beyond logic thinking, but its just a vauge hint. Also after a good meditation I feel great and it can be exciting. And sometimes boring and pointless. Overall in my life I have ups and downs. I have energy sometimes and tired sometimes....could this be an effect of meditation? I am what psychologist would label slightly bipolar and have a light ADD (i function ok in society). I tell myself meditation helps but im not sure to be honest. Again the effect of meditation on me is so subtle if it even existst. I have lived a very "happy" life here in secure Sweden with loving family and great friends. Many say meditation makes you deal with your shit on a uncounscious level. Maybe I simply don´t have alot of shit to deal with? I mean i have some shitty experiences....Like when my friend commited suicide or most women treats me badly and left me. But i´ve always had loving people around me to ease the pain. And if it would be the case that I don´t have alot of shit then would´t that make me progress faster? Maybe i have alot of shit im just in such a denial about it even unconsously, maybe its even deeper and more sublte than most other people because i really do think I have had a nice life. Im not sure what to do at this point Or maybe this frustration with lack of "progress" is the proof of progress? i just dont know. Maybe I should quit all practice for some months and see what happens. Or do the opposite. Maybe a heroic dose of pshycedelics. Maybe i am blessed with so little bad stuff happening to me? Maybe I should try another practice. But part of me believes it´s more important to pick one and stick with it, get deeper experience with one rather then a shallow experiences with lots of different practices. If you read this far or even partly, bless you Im open to hear any ideas!

Cant I make this facing less painful? I have read news about people committing suicide or becoming mentally crippled after meditation retreats, so I avoid extreme in meditation and facing fears. Sometimes I stop.

But during this phase some people commit suicide. This is depressive

so i've been thinking about suicide lately for the past couple of days and i believe on of the reasons is that i have the belief "i believe i will be happy when i die" so i did some work by byron katie and changed it to "i wont be happy when i die" now idk if its the belief its self but i got this feeling on my chest and its a weird sensation like a worry tightening sensation. not sure if its because its a change of believe that caused it. to change a belief you also need to change the emotion you attach it to. my question is it okay to have the belief "i wont be happy when i die" if it means you wont commit suicide or get a more neutral belief. also what happens when you change a belief? like do you get a sensation in the body or anything like that?

Absolutely, it is just mind tricks to escape the truth. Truth that you are the ego and the ego is necessary to survive in this world. So the ego creates this glse model of non duality and escapes the reality (feelings, emotions, thoughts) to cut itself from the society both physically and mentally. Then the ego comes back, followed by isolating again after few days and the circle keeps repeating until you are dead. Check the "serious mental pissues" thread where this guy committed suicide after seeing for 40 years, the guy realized that he wasted all this time and committed suicide.

@Thanatos13 You are correct to say that life is meaningless and everything that anyone does doesn't matter. As humans we like to feel the emotion of happy. We even live as wage slaves to do this. The most logical thing to do in life is to commit suicide since it virtually solves all of your problems now and in the future and you won't regret it since you won't be able to. But our emotions prevent us from doing this. I personally choose to live as happy as possible until I die. Yes, my happiness doesn't matter but it's what I prefer out of the options I was born with. Even me posting comments on this forum doesn't matter. The forum doesn't need me. The world doesn't need the forum. The universe doesn't need the world. etc

For me, the only true philosophers are the ones who start with the premise that there is no 'meaning'. This subject is explored by countless writers, however I think that it is worth reading 'Every cradle is a grave: rethinking the ethics of birth and suicide' by Sarah Perry. She discusses how meaning operates and its various illusions and mechanisms. The task of constructing personal meaning, knowing it is an illusion, is an interesting path.

I agree with @ajasatya and @RichardY You don't necessarily have to talk about suicide, but just your presence is enough.

Let's spice things up! * Death ≠ suicide in the context of this thread , by Death I mean Enlightenment AKA EGO DEATH Where would you like to die? Most people die randomly on a random day or they kill themselves at home without any depth to it. They end up in an overcrowded hospital and die with a number tag attached to their toe and then they are buried. No Depth whatsoever. Well here i suggest that we make our deaths more deep and that we actually enjoy the dying process & dying and our location and that we actually plan our deaths. This is what true masters do, they plan their deaths in advance and die in a chosen location and actually die in full bliss & peace. This can't be done in groups, this has to be something very personal, this is very intimate. One way to consciously die is to go deep into nature and die with 5-MeO-DMT. Let the image below inspire you. Can you feel the vibration of the entire forest go through you? Your last moments will be so magical that you will be crying at the depth of the beauty, you will physically merge with the entire fabric of reality and become the forest. The cold wind will blow at you as you are sitting in a deep meditative state, and at that moment you will fully surrender your ego and you will transcend reality and become God. There will no more seeking as you will be IT. Peace & Love will be eternal. The trees will become magical , the leaves falling, the wet muddy ground full of life, the sky covered with clouds forming a greenish tint, it is at that moment that you will realize that Reality was truly magical and that you toke it for granted by doing mundane tasks everyday just to survive. At that moment you will truly become alive and enlightenment will be realized. Here below is an illustration / stock photo of how the average person in a civilized country gets to experience death. Full of regrets, regulations & rules , doctor and nurses running around and overall fear, negativity. Your family, if you have one will all come and they will all be sad seeing you in such a state. Everyone will be crying out of fear, the love will not vibrate at the same level and you will die without experiencing God.

@Valach Tell him once you're better you'll go talk to him in person, spend a day, to talk things over. Do it even if he says he's fine later. Write stuff down so you can help your friend out, maybe help put his mind at peace. If he continues talking about suicide afterwards, tell him, you can't be his friend anymore.

@Leo Gura You are not wrong but you talk about death and then always emphasize how you mean that literal and stuff like that. There are tons of newbies reading that please make a sticky thread or something where you go deeper into what you mean with that, because there are always suicide threads coming up here.

So right now I'm finishing up with the Life Purpose course, have really been taking time each day for a few hours to really listen to my intuition and I'm really sensing the amount of change I need to make to the structure, setting, and way I live my life and who I am. I mean, orders of magnitude of change not only of the external but of course more so the internal. Basically what I've been coming to more and more and more is this inner need to become a sage. However, I don't like using that word sometimes because I think it deceives other people and even me when I say that. I don't want to be a sage because I want to be this "great" person or something. I really mean that I just want to get to the bottom of life to the core of it all. The more I contemplate my death the more I'm like 'I can't live my life the way most people live. I can't just die not knowing this stuff. I need to actually understand this world not on the absolute level but also on the relative.' I really spend time thinking like 'what does it really take to do what Jesus did? Or Buddha, Da Vinci, sages of the past and even of the present? What do I need to do to understand life, reality, myself, etc. to that degree? Where this get's tricky and really emotionally unsettling and discouraging is when I bring myself back down from my vision of what I can intuit might be possible for me back to where I am now. I mean, I don't have much money for myself personally, I work at a part-time job in retail that I absolutely resent, I didn't go to college, I live at home with my dad who I have no relationship with anymore and, if I'm really honest with myself and all of you, I'm like a man-child almost there (I'm 23 years old) it feels like because I just go back and forth between home and work and driving around and stopping to meditate for a few hours, reading, journaling etc. I haven't established a foundation of a strong hard work ethic in a long time (from years of failing in high school because I was suicidal then to failing in my sport, to a home that was spelled with almost daily threats of suicide from my mom and her own mental illness, I just began giving up more and more), I've really lost integrity with myself and my commitments/goals/projects/endeavors because of this habit of quitting, to just getting off 6 psych medications this year (1 of them, Adderall, I was on for 17 years), I live in the most expensive city in the USA to live (San Francisco) etc. On the one hand I can actually see myself being able to reach that sort of level in some sort of case (I'm not saying I'm going to create art like Da Vinci, or be a sage like that of Christ). What's stumping me is the common question of "how?" I just don't really know of where I can or should start given where I'm at both in terms of circumstances but also where I'm given my own personal development... which isn't far along at all. I've read the book on @Leo Gura's booklist on the memoir of the monk who gave up everything after hitting the height of his material success but I also have to acknowledge that I really don't have that foundation of confidence in myself, discipline, and the integrity with myself and my word to pull something like that off... at least on my own. I contemplate a lot about how I can start some sort of business to fuel this endeavor but I don't want to be like a bunch of other people I see now who just try to copy Leo in some fashion or another and I also don't really know what I really want in terms of my specific medium. On the one hand I really want to go all out on this path of towards full and complete enlightenment because I really want to know what this reality is and that whole lot but also because in my own research alone I see in people how much enlightenment can empower and enhance learning about different things and different endeavors in my life which can fuel my life purpose as a career. Yet... I don't want to trap myself but studying just one facet of non-duality but just going to a monastery or ashram and just following that and limiting myself to a particular culture's perspective of the Truth. I also feel resistant because (well 1. I'm afraid, but 2...) I don't want this to be a form of escapism all because I don't have a career, feel inadequate, etc. I know my drive itself is authentic, I just don't know about my path towards realizing it. I'm not asking to just "tell me what to do!" I'm more asking, how would you go about this? How would you really attack this? Down to hear whatever you guys have in mind. As always, thanks!

@Lorcan No, you don't understand. YOU ARE JUST AN IDEA! YOU DO NOT EXIST! So there is nothing you can personally gain from spirituality. Therein lies the ultimate Goodness. Goodness is NOT you getting stuff. Goodness is the end of you. Then, once you're dead, nothing can bother you any more and all becomes perfection. The reason you cannot understand this is because you keep assuming you exist and there is stuff you can get. Spirituality it deep counter-intuitive. Happiness only comes after you surrender your entire life to the Truth. You do not surrender to the Truth to get happiness. No! You surrender to the Truth believing that you've killed yourself and everything is fucked and destroyed. THEN, and ONLY then, do you discover something beyond. Almost every fiber of your being hates the Truth. Right now, you only care about the "truth" because you think it will get you something positive. But this is not Truth, this is falsehood. You have to realize that YOU are the problem. And the solution will the elimination of yourself. Spirituality is a form of suicide. Which is why hardly anyone does it. Imagine surrendering your entire life such that you didn't care any more what happened to you. That's what we're shooting for. For example, you don't care any more if you die or if you go to prison or get raped. You have completely surrendered your life to the universe's whims. By surrendering EVERYTHING, you will gain the universe. And then you will be happy. Because you will be dead inside. Truth = Death You have to appreciate how serious this is. We are not talking in metaphors or playing word games. We are talking about your ACTUAL death. And you have to be wise enough to realize that death the best strategy. It is the only way to escape the maze. You have to be wise enough to say, "Okay, fine. Death it is then. Let's do this." You do not want this. It is impossible for an ego to want this. Eckhart Tolle died the day he became enlightened. What you see now is a meat bag walking and talking which you call "Eckhart Tolle". It walks and talks, but it is just a zombie. You are also just zombie, but you are in denial about it. All enlightenment is, is realizing you were always a zombie.

So I just had a very odd dream where I took 5meo-DMT. It's hard to remember in full but I'll do my best to explain it. So the setting was odd, it sort of reminded me of the videogame known as Resistance, all I remember is it seemed almost war torn and a bit post-apocalyptic/alien. Martin Ball was in it and he was the one administering the drugs, I remember there where many buckets of icecream there as well, like it was comfort food for a bad trip or something, I remember being a little thrown off by that and thinking it was kinda stupid. When it was my turn to take the drugs I was laying down and Martin was kneeling at my feet, I don't know how I took them. Did he inject my feet with 5meo? Did he put it up my ass? Some questions may never be answered, but I just remember being disappointed by the effects. I remember a surge of tingling sensation/energy going from my mid section outwards, so from around my heart and gut chakra to my arms and then my hands, my legs and then my feet, also to my balls which felt very weird and uncomfortable, the whole thing felt slightly uncomfortable, like my body was ready for a death trip but couldn't quite get there, I remember flying up into the air and seeing the landscape stretch like a piece of rubber, buildings being separated further from one and other. I can't remember much else from my "trip" I just remember being disappointed. Another Unrelated Dream I Had In The Same Night: So my best friend recently committed suicide and last night he was in a very odd dream of mine. I think I was in his home town of Winnemucca but I'm not sure, I was with my dad, we were riding a dirt bike, all 3 of us were somehow riding the same dirt bike, it was just me and my dad but then we picked up my friend, we saw a drop off on the side of the intersection, my dad just fucking drove off it, but it's okay because there was a ramp at the bottom so we landed perfectly. I don't remember much else from the dream, later I was left with the dirt bike to myself and I was driving around in the dirt, a voice in my head was making commentary on the indestructibility of dirt tires, I then went to ride the bike on the road but remembered that I don't have a licences and this vehicle isn't street legal so I pulled off to the side and started walking the bike, I saw a very odd looking police car that wasn't really a police car, I think it was an animal patrol van with police sirens and lights on top, it pulled me over, a guy got out and said something like "I'm not here to give you a ticket today, I'm here to give you your package that came in the mail." I woke up before I had time to see what it was, I think I already know what it was.

He is not dumb @Rilles, he try to provoke and cause drama. He has issues, obviously it's stupid to commit suicide, I hope that all people who read this thread understand that. Don't harm yourself, work on your consciousness and become a transforming loving force in the world. Peace.