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That's right. Although it's complicated. You have to understand that mystics and enlightened people tend to reside outside Spiral the entirely. Nonduality cannot be mapped. Nonduality is not a stage you reach. Nonduality is Absolute. Never forget that Spiral Dynamics is just a model, and it is not designed to model mysticism, altered states of consciousness, or nonduality. If you want a model of levels of nonduality, Ramaji's LOC system is better suited to that. Although, still, it's just a model and will not address every facet.

I really liked the passage from Leo's latest blog posts. Does anyone know any other great examples of biblical texts referencing nonduality? Open to all sacred texts - not just the bible of course.

I haven't even bothered since nobody I know is interested in personal development much less advanced topics like nonduality and consciousness.

Rationalism, materialism, scientism, moralism, intellectual crusading, demonization of Islam, duality. Sam Harris is stuck playing the role of an intellectual. The lesser Jihad. All classic traps you should watch out for. Writing a book or talking about spirituality & meditation does not mean one is awakened or has a profound understanding of nonduality. If you're at stage Blue/Orange/Green, Sam Harris might be useful to you. Once you get beyond that, he will hold you back. There's nothing "wrong" with him. He is who he is.

@Empty That is a very interesting question. How unacceptable or acceptable in general is meditation (without mentioning nonduality)?

Well... if you think about what a loop is very abstractly, it's a singular object which links back with itself via some backward, as yet unseen connection. So two ends which previously seemed separate are ultimately recognized to be one and the same. Try slowly drawing a circle and see what happens. Duality goes full-circle into nonduality The beginning and end are one.

Try Thoreau's Walden. It's very subtle... he's not screaming "NONDUALITY!!" at you but if you're well versed in the theory you can't miss it. After all, the whole premise is that this guy is isolating himself in the woods for two years to find his true nature, your self actualization sirens should be blaring just by that fact alone. The insights gleaned from Walden are rather profound. On the other hand if you know nothing about nondual theory, all the juicy stuff will fly right over your head

It's a tricky topic because in the ultimate big picture, EVERYTHING serves its purpose. Cenk's demonizing the right has its purpose. White people lynching black people has its purpose. Nazis killing Jews had its purpose. Racism, war, genocide, slavery, anti-Semitism, rape, murder, theft, corruption, harassment, abuse, tribalism, etc. It ALL serves a purpose. It's all totally inevitable and part of Infinity. This is the bitter pill that no ego wants to swallow because the ego loves to judge and be self-righteous and to create an environment which aids the ego's survival. So if you're gonna say that demonization is moving us forward. Okay. But also realize, so did Nazi concentration camps. It will take some deep enlightenment experiences to accept that. It will not make sense to the ego-mind. The ego-mind is too selfish to see it. And the ego-mind will try to use this fact to further its agenda by saying things like, "Well, I robbed that person, but it was totally inevitable, like Leo said. So I didn't do anything wrong." Of course this is just ego being a sneaky manipulative snake. Which is also inevitable. Reality cannot be other than exactly how it is. The challenge for ego is to surrender to what is. By definition, anything that happens within reality, servers the ultimate purpose. There is nothing within reality which is "wrong" or "should be otherwise". You cannot optimize reality beyond what it is. It is already 100% optimal and anything that occurs is part of that opitmality unfolding. It just unfolds in counter-intuitive ways. Most people would not think that murder is optimal, but that's because they are not seeing the biggest picture. They are not thinking infinite moves ahead the way God does. So to them, stuff looks sub-optimal. But that is just ignorance. At higher levels of consciousness that will fall away and there will be total acceptance. This is the #1 reason why nonduality cannot go mainstream. This truth is too brutal for people to accept.

I have muslim family members and have never in my whole life heard them talk about anything that can even come close to nonduality. Most of muslims in my experience are stage blue. Believe in God as a seperate entity that is to be feared and worshipped. The ego is in many cases considered evil and the pursuit of material wealth or earthly happiness is considered Dunya. Which is a form of resistance to stage orange and individualism. As is the death penalty for apostasy and so on. Muslims are very blue and might even be red in some circumstances. There are probably Nondual versions of islam, but they are not considered real islam by the mainstream muslims.

@Spacious He's trying to reconcile Blue religion/morality with Orange science. Which will never work without direct experience of the Infinite. The Infinite IS the reconciliation. You cannot comprehend the Infinite via the finite. Duality cannot fathom nonduality. A discontinuous leap in awareness is required. All religion is an aping of nonduality.

Both perspectives are valid. It is true that ultimately, from the perspective of God, that good and evil are not qualities inherent in reality. But the illusion is also a valid part of God. The illusion of duality is an integral aspect of non-duality. So, from the perspective of duality, there are actions that are beneficial and actions that are detrimental. There is also a deep drive toward compassion and creation in all people, which is constantly clashing against an equally strong drive toward destruction. And it is the chaos that occurs between the two within us that makes the internal landscape a beautiful aspect of duality. It is in being able to accept and integrate all polarities as valid aspects of the infinite nature of God: Duality and NonDuality, Form and Formlessness, Love and Emptiness, Good and Evil, etc. that we can become whole again. So, the trick is to hold space for and integrate both paradoxical truths. So, you can realize that good and evil don't actually exist as inherent qualities in reality, but on the level of duality be able to recognize which actions are coming from the "good" drive or the "evil" drive. They are aspects inherent to the internal landscape, just like volcanos and oceans are aspects inherent to the external landscape. And the former is just as non-personal as the latter. I made a video on the topic that addresses this paradox if you're interested...

@DocHoliday Yeah. I was really into fitness, meditation, qm’s, neurology, biology, and Loa for years, then had my first taste of nonduality a year ago...so Joe is like some adjective I don’t have a word for other than nondual. Listening to him, I feel like I’m in the crowd, listening to myself put it all together for myself. Awesomely weirdly cool. And funny af. I love your signature lines btw. The revolution is well underway!

Haha orange is a reaction to blue, green is a reaction to orange and yellow is a reaction to Green, well not a reaction for yellow but a understanding and "seeing" that the stages lower are necessary steps. I can understand, I've had some pretty radical green friends and have moved on. It's interesting when a radical green takes a psychedelic and experiences turquoise and comes back to its ego, the radicalness becomes more intense. Are they into nonduality? I think nonduality leans towards yellow.

Nonduality is the way.

It is the nature of Blue consciousness that it cannot fathom or admit of unity between man and God. Blue views God as a supreme authority figure, which must be situated at the top of a heirarchy. So Blue cannot fathom how man and God are identical. Blue cannot fathom paradox or the notion of strangeloops (tangled-hierarchies). So of course most Muslims will deny that man is God. Because they are practing Islam in an absolutist, ideological, Blue form. Islam at higher colors has no problem with this. Blue cannot fathom nonduality or mysticism. Not even intellectually, let alone experientially. This is not exclusive to Islam. Blue Christians and Blue Buddhists also cannot fathom how they can be Christ or Buddha. Blue sees such talk as blasphemy, disrespect of authority. But in truth, the only authority is God, and you are it. So you are just worshipping yourself

@metwinn I do think free will exists, yes, though it is limited by one's karma. I don't think the existence of free will runs in contrast with nonduality, or goes away just because you see through the illusion of self. I have noticed will to be at a level deeper than self.

You can conceptualize it with water/droplets but avoid the mind trap that this kind of concept is the actual (whole) insight. Thought-self loves concepts --- even concepts about nonduality and transcending thought/self --- and will accumulate them, but this is not insight, which is non-verbal/non-conceptual. It may only be expressed verbally/conceptually after the insight, as the insight is expressed through thought for the purposes of communication. Thought distinguishes, differentiates, separates, identifies, classifies, labels, groups, categories --- that is its nature. To use language (which is dualistic/thought) to communicate this stuff will inherently chop up everything into differences --- fear, desire, time, belief, knowledge, self, thought, etc. Knowledge is thought, and to attach to knowledge is thought seeking security in thought (this can also be considered as movement-from-what-is); the movement of thought-self. Belief is thought, and to attach to belief is thought seeking security in thought (this can also be considered as movement-from-what-is); the movement of thought-self. This process of thought-self and how it is always identifying, seeking security, attaching, clinging, moving in fear, moving from what-is. These are all different concepts/words expressed in dualistic language for the one process.

What if the ultimate truth is that there is no truth so therefore truth itself is deception? What if the ultimate reality is that there is no reality so therefore reality itself is an illusion? What if the ultimate awakening is realizing that there is no awakening so therefore enlightenment itself is a delusion? Beyond Infinity What is existence? Understanding the nature of existence is of great importance when seeking to understand reality. Infinity or everything is literally all things. Every space, every world, every possibility, every universe, every dimension and etc. But what are all those things? Go deeper and what you will find is that every thing is merely information ℹ. That is to say if it possess quality or quantity (identity) then it is of information. So therefore existence is information. Beyond existence. Nothing is beyond existence. No literally - no thing is beyond everything. Touch your hand ✋ if you will. That sensation happens in your brain! The dualistic mind causes duality for the sake of being informative hence what can be experienced is pure info... Well hypothetically atleast. But nonetheless if information is the product of the dualistic mind then imagine if there were a thing that is not of information . Spoiler : you can't because anything you do conjure up will be information (have quality) since it is in the nature of the mind to be informative. And yet what if there were a realm where the notion of existence doesn't apply. A thing that couldn't be experienced because there's no thing to experience. Could this be the realm of nonduality? Does it even have a name? What do you think?

This topic was fuzzy to me until just recently. Like, until 40 mins ago. basically, traditional zen didn’t/doesn’t teach non-duality the way it’s taught now. Western zen temples generally do, though. in traditional zen, non-duality was an absolutist position which, until you got enlightened, you really were supposed to just believe. people who got enlightened in old traditions like zen got very, very lucky by the sheer fact that their absolutist position ended up lining up with the Truth. modern non-duality is run by yellow and turquoise clearly thought out rational proofs of nonduality. Not how it used to be.

Sounds like she is well grounded, but not aware of nonduality yet. Her views would change. Also sounds like you’re possibly attracted to her, you could be projecting. Hope I’m not just being cynical, but notice how these things directly secure the work that she does. How is she missing the much larger sample of people who were healed / helped? And has any one person worked with thousands of people who needed help from psychedelics? Other drugs I certainly could see. What system even funnels people with psychedelic ailments to her? Any treatment center or hospital would be receiving people with ailments from all drugs, primarily ego stimulating addictive ones, not psychedelics. I wonder what specific experience she is speaking from. People die eating French fries wrong. Someone could apply hand lotion ‘wrongly’ and fuck themself all up. I think you’re able to distinguish, as you said...”best experiences” & “beneficial”. Seems like you might be putting her on a pedestal for some reason, causing you to doubt your self, and what you have found works well for you. Also, you can only know the methods she suggests by trying them. I agree with @cirkussmile..one at a time.

First time I noticed it was when I started to meditate. I had always used (?) this spaciousness as I was trying to go to sleep and it was strange that it manifested itself during meditation. I thought that I was sleepy hahaha. It was only the above the eyes sensation, though. Never the top of the head. After some observation, it started to manifest in the waking hours, spontaneously. It became intertwined with meditation somehow and this is how I began to meditate effortlessly. It's 'on' all the time these days. I don't pay too much attention to it anymore. Just curious. I thought that I was squint my eyes during sleeping, hahaha. So funny. It's an eclipse in inverse colors to match the forum layout. A beautiful, natural manifestation of nonduality. An added bonus is that tsuki is moon in Japanese.

That is not nondual...in your conceptionalizing of what you heard, you are now imagining infinite variations of duality. Also, it is still revolving around a "you" that is experiencing these infinite variations. There is no "me" in nonduality.

@Ether First you’d find that skin is an organ, the largest one, and that it is interdependent (inescapably relative & finite) on every other organ. Then you might google “What are these organs made of?”...you might read about molecules, cells. Then you might google “what are cells made of?”.... But ego does not like rabbit holes. It would prefer you don’t look into things. It likes primitive impulse like sex drive. It like’s to hold a device which is a vehicle to it’s own undermining, and actual freedom, and use the device to satisfy it’s sexual impulses. Not judging though. More power to ya. You are aware though, that the ego says there’s no ego. No? The devil says it’s not the devil, God says it’s not God, you say you’re not Leo, but there is nonduality.

@Ether I understand my man. But just because you are insulted does not mean someone insulted you. Btw...who is insulted? And how could someone prove nonduality to you? Maybe take 10 minutes and google for yourself. Start by looking at your own finger. Then start googling what it actually is. I know you’re real busy though. It’s just a suggestion.

At this point, I'm starting to think that Blue is the nonduality of Red. Orange is the nonduality of Blue. Green is the nonduality of Yellow, etc.