Search the Community

I really wouldn’t do this. Now... like I said, this isn’t a post about nonduality. However, I really wouldn’t follow up on that urge to do 5-MeO-DMT as your first trip. I think what a lot of us aren’t taking from Leo is how profound a substance like this can be. I personally am not in a stable place in my life or a place if independence even (I still live at home) so just that combination right there can cause so much of a catastrophic trip if I took 5-MeO that it wouldn’t be worth it. I think 5-MeO is a substance you have to be at a certain level of development to do where you’re both willing to “give it all up” but at a place where that drive is tampered or tarnished with any kind of drive like escapism or serious depression, etc. So really check yourself on that. Idk you so I can’t say. That said, I do know where you’re coming from with wanting to dive all the way in and all that stuff. I personally would rather do something like LSD and maybe even just microdose to help me be more in touch with my intuition, creativity, etc. to help me with constructing my life purpose and getting me to work on my business to get me out of the living situation I’m in and also help me intuit what I want to do with my life from here as I’m at a real crossroads right now. Hope this helps

All thought needs is a thinker/knower/self — even if the thinker is thinking/knowing/theorizing about nonduality.

To me, what you describe seems more like a concept of nonduality. The direct experience of nonduality is much different than the intellectual concept. Regarding my direct nondual experience: When I go full-on nondual, there is no "me". There is no distinction between me and anything in my environment. I pretty much just sit or lie down and stare. Perhaps I can walk a bit. Yet, I couldn't do even the most basic tasks like cooking dinner. I wouldn't know the difference between me, a knife and broccoli. I can't speak, since language is dualistic. Words no longer make sense. I wouldn't be able to recognize my girlfriend or my mother. All distinctions dissolve. . . I need to have a dualistic perspective to function in life. To cook, drive a car, paying my bills etc. I can't imagine trying to drive a car in a nondual mindstate - there would be no distinctions between me, the car, the road and other cars.

I don't think understanding once pursuing nonduality is ever lost - but I do think one can not think about that understanding and focus solely on more materialistic dualistic perceptions of life. Going towards this path means a lot of alienation from a major portion of unconscious society, and well, im sure there are plenty of people who went back to fit in before finally being able to break the shell.

It's very common to have brief glimpses of nonduality and then fall back into duality. But after a certain point, after enough glimpses, something should crack in you and then nonduality becomes your permanent way of seeing the world.

Duality is an illusion...it is just a thought. What you experience now is nonduality. After "achieving nonduality" - which I guess would be equivalent to seeing through the illusion of duality - would not mean the world looks any different (by the eye). It is just understood differently...what is lacking is the belief that anything is separate. Once the illusion of duality is seen through, it is never believed again. So there is no going back or losing it.

It's a thought provoking subject for me Can people that have achieved nonduality experience duality again? I have 2 views on this. 1. Like working out, when you stop you lose your gains. One would presume that achieving non duality and then quitting the practices that got you there in the first place would cause your ego to redevelop itself once again, slowly and then at once you would lose non duality, and fall back into duality. 2. But then the other side of the story would suggest that once you've understood it, there isn't going back, despite stopping spiritual practices, since its a reality that you've grasped and then it's something you can't forget, since you see it working through everything. i haven't the slightest clue as to which one to go with. Share your thoughts

@Leo Gura is this like the beginning phase of nonduality for this individual? is this what it felt like for you?

@Seed That's nonduality! Enjoy

Much of academic psychology is pretty crude. It certainly won't incorporate spiritual or mystical insights. But there's some value in it. What you really want is transpersonal psychology, humanistic psychology, positive psychology. Or just straight up spirituality, mysticism, and nonduality.

You need to contemplate\do some self-inquiry, it's not a nonduality nonsense, It's just questioning all your beliefs you hold about reality and Self

Hey Leo, I am new here and don't know if there is a channel to request a topic for you to cover. But I know plenty of people, including me, would love to see a leo-style nondual approach to time. In fact I am surprised you haven't already done it. It is one of the key things to transcend going from duality to nonduality. thanks

The difficulty speaking about nonduality is that language is dual. Every statement you make about nonduality, you would need to also say it's the opposite (at the very least). Every word you use is dual (it is not another word). Balancing every statement out becomes tiresome and nonsensical. In your example: "Non-duality only exists without thought" AND "Non-duality only exists with thought" One way to balance this out is to turn each statement back on itself: "The idea nonduality only exists without thought IS the idea nonduality only exists without thought." This is only a half-step, yet it can highlight that each of your statements is saying X is Y. By turning the statement back on itself we are saying X is X. At best, we can only point to nonduality with partial truths. That is why zen monks often have nonsensical answers to students' questions. To break the mind's obsession with language, reason and images. When asked "What is nonduality?" a zen monk might drop an apple to the floor, he might ask the student "what was your face before you were born?", he may slap the student across the face or he may fart and giggle. The words and actions are just pointers. Yet, the mind can still become attached and analyze. . . "Hmmm, was nonduality the fart or the giggle? Maybe nonduality is the integration of fart and giggle. No, perhaps nonduality is the transcendence of the fart to humor. Yet, what if the giggle came before the fart? Could nonduality be the transcendence of the giggle? . . . And on and on and on for months, years, decades. . . Don't get attached and bogged down with the words. Don't waste months or years of your time chasing farts and giggles. Direct experience of nonduality is 1 million times more powerful than any words.

Is describing the experience of fear with language the same as the experience itself of fear? Clearly not. Language is just symbols to represent something. It comes in handy as we navigate through life. From a nondualistic perspective, every word is NOT another word and is thus dualistic. That's why it's so hard to speak about nonduality. It's like the words are an arm pointing to "IT". Yet, the arm appears to be pointing at nothing. The arm are the words. People get sooo caught up on the arm (words). They dissect and analyze the arm (words). They argue over what the arm is made of. They can spend their whole life obsessed with the arm and never awaken to what the arm is pointing to.

Hello, I had a similar experience that led to psychosis and hospitalization, you can read about it here: I hope there are some insights here that you can relate to, one of the primary motifs being doubt, and how it turned psychosis into a self-fulfilling prophecy. The doubt that sets in when everyone around you convinces you that what you experienced is not real, even though it felt more real than anything you've experienced in your life. The medication reinforces this, as if a reality of eating and sleeping all day were acceptable. Everyone here is giving great advice, and it does sound likely that there is some trauma that needs to be faced head on slowly but without yield. There certainly was for me, and my psychosis was the quick and violent way of resolving this trauma completely. If I have to give any advice, its to educate yourself on nonduality/spirituality/etc until you see that the label of mental illness can only do harm and needs to be dropped completely. You are doing hard work that needs to be done, but we also can't succumb to delusion and think that the answer lies within a certain ideology, religion, or science. Realize that this is all different language to explain the same thing, and the only one who can give proscriptions on how to live is you. Question everything that gives you an easy answer. When you are ready, I recommend tapering off medication SLOWLY, and only tell others afterwards when they can see that this is good for you and you are doing better. I halved my 20mg of olanzapine every 2 or so weeks, and in the end I realized that life was so much better than it was pre-psychosis. I have induced the "psychosis" several times since then, and each time I become more comfortable with the idea that this can only bring good to myself and others. I have learned to adapt my language to other's understanding, and if you meet others where they are they will not fear you. Everyone has an idea of God and spirituality, but literally saying "I am God" triggers the red flags of mental illness in their minds. Despite the Christian-dominated culture we live in, we still crucify Jesus every time he shows his face. You need support though in order to get through the doubts and fear of relapse, and we're here for you.

@Nahm You speak some truth. Maybe seeing nonduality as a state delegitimizes the overarching truth of it all, as if nonduality was a subset of the unquestionable ego. I can not help but distinguish however, that there are moments when the ego is present, and when it is not. This is a distinction that needs to be deconstructed with time. You say there are no beliefs, and I agree that when the ego is absent there are no need for beliefs, but the ego needs belief in order to feel safe in the vast unknown without fear. I know I eventually need to be at a place where I can simply 'let go', but the ego is not ready to let go, and I shouldn't ignore that feeling. There are loose ends that need to be tied up for the ego to accept that it is no longer needed to protect me like a worried mother, and make sure I don't make the same mistakes as last time and end up in a mental hospital or homeless. It needs to know that if life were a dream of my own creation, I would love it and everything in it, never harm it. And if the time came that the ego took hold again, I need to know that everything will be okay and there is no need for depression; that I will make it back in time. I cannot simply cut off the ego cold turkey, instead respect it as if it were another person, love it, and accept it until it can let go consensually.

@zunnyman She did not have any proper theoretical foundation so she misinterpreted her awakening as something wrong. Seems to me that she did this for so long and so severely that she ended up causing her own brain cancer. If she had access to some of the videos on Actualized.org, she would have been fine I think. It took her many years to find some realized teachers to help straighten her out. Consider yourselves lucky that you're alive in the age of Youtube and a flood of free nonduality videos. Where you can literally go to Google and find the answer to any question or problem you might ever have in life. People take this ability so for granted. In a world full of insane people, when you become sane, but have no one to talk to about it, you might find yourself thinking you've gone insane.

@d0ornokey It's very challenging. Western philosophers are masters at weaving together genius and bullshit. Best to stick to modern nonduality teachers for the most of you. So you don't waste your time. The books on my book list are what you should be focused on reading and mastering. You'll notice, I don't put a lot of philosophy books on there.

@Serotoninluv so your saying the way to stop caring about what people think of me i have to remove me out of the equation? Listen man, I wanna be some sort of a CEO, someone who has the balls and carelessness about what others think of him to go out there and fuck the world, i dont wanna become a fucking monk or guru. I just want to know How to not give a shit about what others think, im sure theres a way to do just that without having to achieve nonduality.

Honestly, though, a lot of the experiences you describe when talking about nonduality and stuff are actually the same as some mental disorders that even have a name. These spiritual experiences have always been there for thousands of years but are still considered mental disorders today, why ???

There is such a stigma over 'mental health'. I mean Jesus how do you explain 'this' to a psychotherapist and doctors who are totally entranced and asleep, a total unquestioning alliance to materialism and an objective reality which doesn't even exist, if you QUESTION that fact, address anything metaphysical with a professional doctor or psychotherapist and they are liable to question your sanity. Why, OP, are we concerning ourselves with their opinions. What they call psychosis, and what qualifies you as a 'looney', would apply to nearly all of our conversations here in this place according to western psychology, this entire civilization is built on archaic and erroneous Roman catholic and protestant Christian principles. @Leo Gura Do you think your average psychotherapist or medical doctor/surgeon would accept your views on metaphysics? What about your view on pyschedelics, nonduality? What do they really think of meditation and spirituality I wonder? Edit: This experience also shows that guidance isnt a bad idea. It's like a bottle under intense pressure, my God OP I really can relate to your experience. Once its shaken lose a bit, it can have an explosive effect, the 'psychosis' is an important time of awakening for the shaman. He must purge large amounts of psychic debris from his field. It could be lifetimes of suppressed darkness, not allowed to rise to awareness, always being shoved back down. And also, @Leo Gura this might be more common than you think, read SN Goenkas book about vipassana, there are parts in there about situations like these, and it commonly happens towards the end of the retreat, which is why they put so much emphasis on completion. They claim it's very dangerous to leave in a bad mental state, you MUST go through it. I really am not surprised by this and really seems to be business as usual. Have you ever seen a faith healing or Christian mystics? This isn't a huge deal, but like I said it's because of the STIGMA with mental health 'disorder'.

@LaraGreenbridge I had never been interested in nonduality or enlightenment. I created my life just like you did. It sounds wonderful btw. ? I never had a teacher, but I can understand what you’re saying. That’s really great that you can see the beneficial aspect in things. Takes a lot of life to get there. ? From what I’ve seen, nonduality is not a tool for anything, or useful to any specific application of life. It’s the journey that matters, the joy & the pain. Life.

@Emanyalpsid The explanations on that website are very materialistic and dualistic. I don't see a proper explanation there of what the universe or reality is. There is no physical universe. That is just a concept. The universe did not originate from nothing, it is nothing. There is also no such thing as perception. There is also no such thing as consciousness inside a body. Consciousness is not dependent on reality. Reality and consciousness are identical. Seems like you may have realized no-self, but not the Absolute nature of reality. There are many depths of enlightenment and nonduality, so be careful.

Go into that. Reality is not cold & deterministic. There’s a denial of reality there, and a freedom revealed for facing it. Thought is sneaky. There are no discrepancies. There is thought being tricky. An a priori “ I “ is required first for there to then be decoherence and confusion. Deconstruct beliefs, they aren’t true, they’re belief. Freedom. Go into it, decipher the messages of sensations. Disregarding is the panic, disregarding fragments. Awareness can not by divided, thinking creates an appearance of this, then there’s more “work to do” in the fragmentation from having disregarded. The root of disregarding any of the logic and emotion, is fear. Any fear present and there is no nonduality. Nonduality is not a state. The importance of that is seeing the tendency of mind to separate and segregate “states”, which is a denial of the totality, the actuality, of nonduality. If “you” are “using the nondual state” then there is a segmented, separated “you” via thought. Then there is the apparent need to “conceptually reinforce reality” which is thinking, deeply tricky thinking. Reality can not be conceptually reinforced, because you can not actually be separated from it to begin with. You are doing some great introspection, some great work man. Thinking is very very tricky. Nonduality is without it. Monkey mind is thought always attempting to justify “I am separate from the toaster”. Awareness of just how deep and long thinking goes, in terms of falsity, this “ I “ is a facinating proccess. I way to put it is, the mind creates a separate “ I “ as the “holder of intelligence”, but you are everything and nothing, not a part which holds anything. You are intelligence itself, not a partitioned piece of it. Same with love, which is typically discovered after all thoughts and roots are inspected and rooted out in the light of awareness.

Yup! Which is why it's scary. Nonduality means that all distinctions are arbitrary, including the distinction between life and death, reality and fantasy. What's left is the Groundless Ground, The Void, The Infinite, The Absolute, The Godhead -- which is totally indistinct.