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How you know that you born in the first place? Words are just sounds that you putted meaning in it, so the world, enlightenment vs. if no one told you anything, you would be never exist, because you are existed and created by the thoughts, which is duality. Ego is way deeper than that being nice or good. Ego is knowing in the first place “ i am exist or aware”. If you can be aware of so called duality, even “being aware” is an ego. Because there is no you in the body.you are nothing in the body.if you are aware that you have body or can talk, thats what ego is. Thats how enlightenment comes with not knowing. I believe my experience and yours was completely different. I am operating from the moment anymore, i just uses thoughts when it is necessary. If you have no thoughts nothing is happening. You are infinite nothingness right now. But i am not a human anymore or in the world. You are in the world because of your thoughts and human because of thoughts. No one is here nothing is happening. I am not even in the body, so how can write these messages to you? Because nothing is happening,

Additionally, if you want to be god in state of nothingness, you can say all is me (pick up some words from duality, which makes world is existed agian) and the moment turns out to be love inevitably (because whatever you see, hear and taste is you). This is love of god The unconditional one, and you can be the moment as love much loveeeeeeeee

Nothingness is right here. There is life happening only with “words”. After the realization I understood that it is really hard to overcome from language. Because if i dont think now, i am in state of nothingness. Do you know how it feels? It feels like you are sleeping but awake, thats why nothing is happening. Or you are nothing thats why you are happening as nothing. But when you are nothing you cant know something, thats why you are not aware either. I really cant explain. I did my best ❤️ but it is so clear that i can see the world, shamadi, Mahasamadhi, zen, enlightenment, life, earth are only exist with thoughts, when thoughts are gone you are nothing, and nothing is happening here, which is being directly in the moment. Thoughts creates dualities even love or aka god. They are states that includes god (love) because god is still different than something. Only nothing could be complete.

Hence why language breaks down - as Truth is prior to it. However there is pure Nothingness or pure Infinity and then you have a finite piece of nothing or aka something. When the finite dissolves there is only the Absolute. As the Absolute you can and will have Absolute realizations - but they are not bound by finite thought - or time or space - or knowing. Knowing colllapses into Being and the two are One. I know you have had realizations as the Absolute - or you would be taking all of this as belief.

Definitely. Thats why nothing (or pure or formless) can take any form. Thats why we are nothing, therefore everything. Absolutely. Just dont forget nothing is right here. The duality is existed by only thoughts, if you dont think, you will be willingly open to not knowing. Which is the moment of nothingness, and right now in the moment. Only thoughts keeps us away from nothingness. Absulute state of consciousness is nothin or formlessness therefore it could be any state.

"Well... people's notion of life-transforming is of course highly subjective. Those who are well-suited to it will get a lot more juice out of it. Exponentially more. Like 100x more. So that can explain that. Personally I'm not well-suited to it. My mind is hyper creative non-stop.Meditation is best for people with weak minds " --Leo Gura source of quote page 2> What if we've all been had to some extent? What if meditation is largely the emperor's new clothes? Are we pretending it leads to insights but it is basically zoning out on nothingness, getting high but with no content. Is it hype to get people to follow other people and sell classes where the teacher speaks for 10 minutes and then people sit for 30 minutes doing absolute nothing, virtually no supplies necessary but for some cushions? Is the wisdom intellectually constructed after the mediation is over ? ^ He's a philosopher too. You can see the problem here. You spend time reading books and processioning ideas and then it is suggested the wisdom comes from sitting around, wasting an hour of time sitting and doing nothing. And after you do this you dont wind up with much that is useful wisdom that is any different from what other people have said for hundreds of years. It's not creative and is not supposed to be. Creativity is about imagining things, building castles of ideas in the mind while meditation is about emptying your mind of imagination and thoughts in general. You can be mindful of thoughts but you just note them dismissively as distractions. You are trying to not be reactive to them and not engage in trying to mentally solving problems or come up with new ideas. You could be spending an hour to write down ideas, integrating other ideas with your own perspective and maybe coming up with something new or a new perspective, instead you're supposed to sit there and do nothing and pretend it's something. Sure 20 minutes can be stress relief but is it really anything more? And if you force yourself to do it routinely sometimes it's even painful and boring, not always tranquil. What if Beethoven or Einstein had gotten into meditation? Would they have zoned out and emptied their mind and not have given us what they gave us?

It’s not that mediation is trivial and outdated, it’s that the average user fails to cultivate the innumerable benefits it provides. Very few attain what mediation is purposed for. It is not simply to empty the mind, it is to ascend ones consciousness to profound levels and align to the presence of Now. Both of these premises far exceed any numb-skull spending relentless hours using the concepts their mind proliferates. The mind is a useful tool to a degree but a heavily limited one. The problem we have here is that mediation has become superficialised and fictitiously abused. And as such, we have many doubting it’s utility because rarely does anyone know how to properly cultivate it or have an ounce of capacity to do so. Mediation needs to be re-instated as its prior practice. Sitting for long periods of time, painstakingly, without movement or any accessible distraction. The highest consciousness comes from the space of nothingness beyond mind. The mind itself, is a surface level operator merely concerned with the very conceptual symbolisations in which it creates and is limited by. Rarely does any human use the mind wisely let alone the consciousness that facilitates it. Mediation done properly is far more powerful than most have the comprehensibiity to even imagine (especially in the west). Unfortunately, the conventional being is far too deluded to even entertain this possibility.

@JayG84 "If Time vanished how could anything remain?" - This is a very underrated question IMO (and great job for asking it!). Along similar lines of thinking, I've asked myself the following two questions many times before and have compared and contrasted my answers to them to help myself develop a better understanding of what might more fundamental/true (ie consciousness versus time): #1. Can consciousness exist without time? #2. Can time exist without consciousness? #1 seems possible to me, and also more likely than #2 (if I were forced to pick between #1 or #2 as being more true/fundamental), because I can imagine everything (the total collapse of all conceivable dualities into a uniform substrate/essence/being/intelligence - including all possible sensations, frames of time, dimensions, realties, etc) existing in a single moment. However, a counterargument here could be that maybe this ISN'T possible to imagine without any time whatsoever, because there is SOME amount of time required (even if it's an infinitesimally small amount) to imagine such a nondual/infinite substrate/substance/essence/intelligence that IS all of these things. I'm not sure, but it's always good to play devil's advocate. #2 seems mostly implausible to me. I don't know how time could exist without something (consciousness) to experience/witness it. I could see time and consciousness existing simultaneously though (this seems consistent with oneness/nonduality). But again, to get back to your original question and close the loop here (pun intended), what does consciousness with ZERO time look like??? Does consciousness even exist with no time whatsoever? If 'yes, then would god consciousness experience infinite possibilities in a true time-less state? If 'no,' then would something like true 'nonexistence' (not to be confused with formlessness/nothingness) be possible if the converse were true and literally everything disappeared because there was no time for anything to exist or be experienced in the first place? I have a lurking suspicion that there is more to the concept of 'nonexistence' (or something like it, if you want to argue that nonexistence can't exist because it directly contradicts itself). I know most people on this forum disagrees with this possibility, but I think it's worth investigating this further to see if there's yet another veil hiding key info on what something like 'nonexistence' might look like and how that could fit into total nonduality/infinity.

@VeganAwake If there really is 'no one' "there" as you say, why is it so important for 'no one' to get confirmation from others if 'no one' is liberated or not? Another thought for who/what? 'No one', right? So if there is no one to be concious or unconscious of anything in the first place, why are you then asking these questions? When you say "conscious me", what do you mean exactly? Do you mean some part of the person/separate mind/'soul' - like personality, preferences, memories, habits, beliefs, ideas, knowledge, dreams, world-views? Because if that's what you're talking about with "conscious me" then of course that will die with the physical body, because both the physical body & the person-mind is not really *real* in the first place; it's just imagination. Only that which is actually *real* cannot die, because it was never born either. It has no form, no attributes, no limits and it's not dependent on anything (like "time" or "space" for instance). But everything else: e.g. time, physics, space, form, matter, objects, physical reality, mind, thoughts, emotions, sensations, sense of self, sense of-no-self, ... IS dependent on it. What words would you use to describe that/it ?? (well knowing that it has no attributes and that all words used therefore are only pointers, nothing else). In other words: to you, what is that which is real and cannot die? What words will you use? Personally, I'd like to use the following words interchangeably: Consciousness, Love, God, The Absolute. These 4 words are all pointers to exactly the same thing, for me. It is what I am, ultimately. It is what you are, ultimately. It's all One (Oneness could be a 5th word). It is what just is beyond the body, beyond the apparent external world, beyond the apparent separate mind/persona. We could call it Pure Being as well (6th word, hello). It is not just beyond everything, it is also the source & substance of everything. It is also that which experiences everything (body, mind, world, etc.) ... It is that which imagines everything/all forms into existence ... out of itself ... to itself ... by itself. There is nothing else than it. Nothing is outside of it. And nothing is inside of it either, because The Absolute is infinite,... so it has no inside, no outside. It just is what actually IS. So all 'illusory things' (body, mind, other humans, the physical world, space, time, matter) are ALSO *that*. Nothing is not that and simultaneously it is nothing either. The real, unreal. The unreal, real. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. That is why I told you to go out and look on the sky and take a talk while enjoying the sun and some music. Cos that is fucking IT. There is nothing else than THAT. (All my and your word games here are just pure fucking nonsense-conceptual-bullshit, ultimately speaking). Eckhart Tolle talks a lot about it. He calls it "The Now" / "The Present Moment" (7th word, hello). “Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to “die before you die” and find that there is no death.” What Tolle means by this, is simply that all that really exists is The Now. It is what you are. The Present Moment is all you got - it is you! The Now is eternal and infinite. It was never born, it will never die. It is nothing and everything at the same time. The Now is pure bliss in its essence. It is Samadhi. Samsara is seen to be Nirvana itself. The very world we walk on is seen to be Heaven. World, Heaven. Heaven, world. Nirvana, Samsara. Samsara, Nirvana. It's all ONE. (Non-duality 101, remember). Jesus said it: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you". When you see this -- no, feel this, more importantly -- that all dualities collapse into each other (right in front of your eyes, and inside you, too); that is when I'd say 'a person' is truly awakened, although you are also right: it happens to 'no one' ... because 'no one' is exactly what God / The Self / Love / Consciousness / The Absolute *is*. You see? It is no one. It is not WaveInTheOcean, it is not Trump, it is not Leo, it is not VeganAwake, it is not any body, any words, any thoughts, any emotions, it is not any thing; it is nothingness..., and therefore by the virtue of being nothing, it is simultaneously also everything, you see ?? (( But remember: words are still only pointers. Don't get stuck in believing in words/concepts. Replacing concepts with direct experience is the biggest trap in this work )) So after the body dies, all that will go on living eternally is that which already were eternal. No one. God. Love. Consciousness. Whatever you wanna call it. It is YOU (ultimately) and it is ME ultimately (not as the separate selfs we can think we are, no no, I should have made that clear by now). We could also use a 8th word: The Self (Sri Ramana Maharshi liked to call 'it' that). Consciousness / The Self / 'no one' / "spaghetti monster" / Love / God is that which imagines the body and the mind. It is that which is playing it is a separate self, i.e. a human being. It is that which imagines thoughts, imagines feelings, imagines 'other', imagines 'self, imagines 'no one', imagines 'God', imagines 'love', imagines monters, dragons, stones, physics, time, space, all possible words, concepts and sensations. In other words, that which is wearing the mask will remain infinite and eternal after the mask dies (mask = body/person-mind/memories). You see? <3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From another thread: Who/what then recognize that recognition of <there's no one' here> ??? ... No one? But who/what then recognizes that the recognition of <there's no one here> is recognized by no one? ... No one ? But ... and you see where I'm going with this ... <3 Again, let me quote you here: Who has received confirmation? You say that there are no one 'here', right? And yet, you are also saying that no one then went over to some other 'enlightened masters' to get confirmation that there truly were no one 'here'? . How did that go about, really? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do understand what 'Liberation' is. It is a word. Like 'boobs' or 'underwear'. Could it be ---- just be open to this possibility; as you say, we should practice unknowing ---- that it is not "no-one/God/Consciousness" through the WaveInTheOcean-avatar who is stuck in concepts from others, but that it is instead "no-one/God/Consciousness" through the VeganAwake-avatar who is stuck in concepts from others, such as from "Liberation Unleashed Guides" ?? I read the guides you linked to, and they all seemed fine and full of spiritual wisdom (to me, probably not to my dad or mother), but they are still just meaningless words on their own. Don't trust or look at the "words / the finger pointing to" ..... but instead trust "your own direct experience / the moon". Bless you brother And by the way, I don't care if any people in my life or on this forum consider me awakened or not. All I want for my friends, family and all people in this world, including you, is the same that I have received in form of lasting peace, love and happiness*. To be actual happy is really all that matters, and I really want all others to be happy, cos all others are me. I'm just very egoistical, you see? I want myself to be happy at all times. I just know 'myself' is not just WaveInTheOcean's private mind, but every single other mind in the whole multiverse. They are me. So to answer my question: I couldn't be less curious what others think of me. What I know is my own inner subjective experience. I don't need others to validate anything in me. I am complete. You can call me misslead or self-fooled or awakened or enligthened. What does it matter, what words you and others project onto me? Nothing. It really changes nothing inside me. Inside me there is only peace and happiness and love to self and other. It is not dependent on any validation or anything. I don't know if I'm liberated (by your book), and I couldn't care less. For what it is worth, my best friend since childhood called me "legendary" two days ago at a party when he was drunk (I wasn't, I'd never want to be drunk again, no point anymore for me... I am already drunk and high on life sober). He said I was the most fantastic and unique human being he had ever met. LOL. I told him I loved him too, haha. He's cute and such a nice friend. Not spiritual at all, unfortunately. But you can't force friends. Show, don't tell. Let's see where's he's at in 10 years;D ... In 2 weeks I'm going to a cottage with him and my little brother and another really close friend (they are both much more spiritual) and we are all going to take a bit of 2C-B and/or shrooms. Hopefully, my good non-spirutal friend will soon be on the path, but if not, that is also fine. He's already ultimately perfect, just like everything else. It just saddens me to see people -- i.e myself -- suffer. * It did come at a price two years ago though, where I was in such a deep 'victim-poor-little-me-depression' that I almost killed myself (everything was planned, just couldn't do the last step of actually jumping due to the love towards my family). I still get close to tears when I think about the contrast of that period of my life (felt like an eternal bad nightmare LSD trip) to my current state of mind / life, and how close I was to ending it (all imagination, though, so maybe I did end it in another dream, but luckily not in this dream, ehehe). But as Jesus once said: "The heavenly highs you are capable of reaching, are proportional with the unacknowledged abyss you have the courage to sink down to." ... or maybe it was someone else who said it.

Mahasamadhi is happening right now, but i am aware of the body (which makes completely aware if duality even as god). I believe ego is so deep, which goes till “There is an “I” that can know”. But even if you nothingness within the body, you are still aware of body. Please dont get me wrong i am not trying to proof myself, but Mahasamadhi happened to me last week (i have asked many people). I had no sense of self, i was watching tv and my ordinary consciousness came back in the kitchen and suddenly I realized how body walked and went to kitchen talk to my girlfriend . I was aware but in infinite sleep, i was nothing in the body, thats why i had no control whatsoever, everything was too much me(nothing) thats why nothing happened till my ordinary consciousness came back than I remembered. I was gone not here if i can write this is an “Ego”. What do you think? No brother. I consumed the shrooms almost 8 days ago.

Ego means a lot of different things to me in different contexts. It actually depends on who I'm talking to a lot as well, hehe. Cos I'm very much aware of the meaningless'ness of all words (i.e. their illusory nature), i.e. that all discussions (oral or written) are games, language games. Anyway, if I could myself objectively define what all words meant, without giving any fuck to anyone else' thoughts on the matter (which you cannot do, but let's pretend) then the word 'ego' would mean this to me: 'you' = <Love/The Self/God/Consciousness/The Universe/Nothingness/The Absolute/Etc.> 'self' = <person/body/mind/human being/conceptual self> If you can become conscious of all ego inside you, you will realize that the person, you think you are, is: game/play/illusory/a character. The personality/selfhood/human body/mind in itself is NOT the "problem" here. Thoughts and emotions are in themselves NOT the problem. The "problem" is identification with thoughts and feelings, believing that they tell something absolutely true about your true nature. They don't. They are play. The goal is NOT to remove ego. The goal is to BECOME CONSCIOUS of ego and loving it. Love = Understanding = Becoming More Conscious = Transcending = Letting Go = Accepting = Being If your goal is to "remove something", then you are in a process of: nihilism, self-hate, seriousness, denial, resistance, depression (the opposite of free expression), 'holding on', 'attachment' (you are so attached to yourself; you take yourself so seriously that you believe something should be changed about you)) ... which is no good for you. Your goals should always be: More Love, More Understanding, More Consciousness, More Dissolving/Transcending (NOT REMOVING ANYTHING, LET IT BE AS IT IS!:D), Letting Go. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Not all egos are the same. Would you agree?" In regards to the above definition, I just made, I'd say both yes and no. The essence/nature of ego is always the same: tension and holding on emotionally/conceptually to the idea of being 'a poor little me' stuck in an external cold world. However, the way it functions/appears within different persons is different. Ego/The Devil is sneaky as FUCK and can take on many, many forms. Enneagram type 5's ego fixation is greediness towards understanding: we want more, more, more. More concepts, more understanding. Never getting fullfilled, never thinking we are good enough to interact in the world. All types have different ego fixation. I think Enneagram is very, very, very useful and interesting, obviously as you can see :-) The ego fixation is each core type's way of protecting themselves against their deep truamatic feelings: i.e. their feelings of separateness/mortality. Paradoxically, the holding on to 'protection', i.e. the holding on to 'the ego fixation' is exactly what creates the feelings of separateness and mortality. So what do we got here? A self-fulfilling loop that never ends; unless you manage to step out of it/let go (hello meditation, hello psychedelics). ............ Anyway, not all persons are the same, obviously. We are all strange, unique and different. That's Love. That's Good. Personality is not a problem. Personality is not ego. Personality is -- like everything else -- an expression of the Intelligence/Infinity/Oneness of Love. -------------------------------- "Someone who has an inferior ego structure will have a completely different path of deconstruction or surrendering from someone who has a superior / narcissistic ego structure. I think that is a very important thing to be noted." Sure, we have different ego-fixations, and therefore we "need" different "things" in order to get out of these self-fulfilling loops. However, the essence/nature of every loop is the same: resistance and holding on to the idea of being a separate self stuck in an external world, especially with emotions "that tell you that it is true" (it is not: the external world is just as much you, as your body-mind/persona is you; i.e. Oneness is what is). "That is why a certain spiritual path might work perfectly fine for one person and not work at all for another. Not only that, but it can also be damaging and it can further perpetuate unconscious ways of being." Agreed. We must all follow our own way to truth. _____________________________________________ "Love is the one doing the loving - so to speak. The 'ego' does not have to do a thing. I would describe the process as 'coming back' for yourself. Or 'looking down' on yourself from Heaven - so to speak. That is Love honoring the experiencer." Agreed <3 Looking down on yourself from Heaven - I really dig that! When you can manage to do that, at all times, you are awakened (in my selfish book:D) <3

I started to write... But ran out steam. It happens. Will finish it off soon. Feeling kind of lazy. Not in a fatigued way, I'm otherwise alert. It just feels like I want to simply switch off and be inert, and let the mind wander off into nothingness. Ever catch that sweet spot just after waking up and just before the waking mind kicks in with all it's problems? That's where I want to be.

Hello everyone, 2 nights ago i consumed 8 gr dried shrooms. I just sit in meditation position and was recording myself in darkness and silence. When i closed my eyes i just felt into like a black whole, and just vanished in the black whole for almost 3 hours and 45 minutes. In that state, i dont know how to explain it, but i will do my best. Me is(me) happening (meeing). Thats why nothing is happening because i am nothing. Just everything is gone, nothing and infinite. You cant feel, touch, think vs. nothing is happening just you infinite nothing. And nothing is happening. You are not sleeping nor awake, not exist or non exist, not human not god. You are just nothing infinite singularity. After that i become aware that i am in the body (i left the body for 3 hours 45 minutes and all existence was gone everyone of you), i had crazy energy and worked out 2 and half hours in order to sweat and get rid of toxin of shrooms. I just felt so less in the body, i let the body worked out and watch. I was completely free and had nothing to do with body. It is just unbelievable. You are not even aware that you are nothing, because you are nothing how can you know something ? Infinite nothingness. Only advice from me as god is BE PURE FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Dont add anything. You will find the love. God created all the creation based of its loneliness therefore it is unconditional love. However, only human can explore, carry and understand what the LOVE IS. YOU ARE SO FUCKING SPECIAL. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW SPECIAL AND BEATIFUL YOU ARE. I dont think i will be good for the forum anymore. Because this is not an knowledge, knowledge comes from language. This can never be understood with language, because there is no me how can i understand what the language is. Thats why no one will understand me, i will better to shut up. i cant even say being or awareness . Just Empty. Nothing, me. Good bye everybody much luck to everyone. I hope you guys will be all happy with love and get whatever you want in your life. Much love. ❤️

@Someone here these are all words. How can you be words? When you become the words and chair at the same time, let me know brother. Yes truth is something to become, you can not know it, till you become it. Definitely sun has no differences than mosquitoes flies in front of you when you look at the sun, thats reason why whatever you see at the moment is you, but how can you be mosquito and sun? What is your element to be both? Which only can be nothing ( even saying nothing add something, i cant name it, just IT), which is nothingness but aware if i have name it. Because staying at that level of consciousness, i dont need to drink or move. Because all is me as nothing, therefore i am not here or anyone is here. I am still human and control of the body. Because i dont eat poison instead of chicken. And i love you. Definitely, thats why you have to become it. Human mind can not comprehend it. Just imagine the air you cant see or touch (unless wind), it is all over on everything. But if you take the elements of air it could Go In anything and. But i cant really explain it. It is impossible to explain.

@Koeke I am trying to find where the confusion is lying so that I can give you some pointers. I guess I'll try and answer your questions and see if anything comes out that is helpful. "Why? I can change my mind. I'm not sure if enlightenment is worth the trouble. My relationships will suffer if I commit to the path." How do you think that your relationships will suffer? Does the path look long and arduous to you? One where you have to neglect your friends and family? To turn your back on them to turn toward seeking enlightenment? Enlightenment is the easiest thing that you can do. Everything else takes effort. Enlightenment is there before everything else. We could replace the word enlightenment here with the word Truth. Truth is there before everything. Also, what do you think when I say that you cannot know Truth? Even right now, you cannot know it. You will not arrive at Truth. You will not arrive at enlightenment. You can only "be" Truth. You can never "know" Truth. Enlightenment happens when we have resolved a separation. It happens when what you are, and what you “think” you are become one. It’s kinda like this: The idea that you have of yourself will arrive at you as Truth. What you think you were will arrive at you. You were always Truth. Also, I don't take psychedelics and I never have (I was brought up and raised to view all drugs in a bad light and it took many years until I saw through this conditioning, but, this is still a part of my expression of body and mind). But, I have had psychedelic experiences (from my limited understanding of them). I don't want to make them seem not important for anyone’s journey and work. I can see from your first post that you do take them, which means that you have much more experience with them than I do. The way I see it, somewhere, there is an illiterate child sitting in the world, on a pile of dirt, and the Truth is still available to him (it is unfortunate that this may not be his experience though). Actually, I would say that Truth is his experience but he just doesn't know it. He is not really suffering but thinks he is. These things are very hard to convey. I feel that, from what I have heard from Leo and other people who have used them, that psychedelics show you what Truth is in a relative-ness way and can cause spiritual traps. E.g. there is a psychedelic taker who takes this substance, then accesses an altered state of consciousness and experience God (or reality) and then returns with a story of what happened. And points backward and says: "yeah, that's me back there. I know this. But, I'm stuck here for now because of my ego and limiting belief systems." This is where the teacher says: "But isn't the belief in just that: limiting belief systems and ego, the 'problem'?" The movement or manifestation of energy into the thought form "I must remove my ego before I get enlightened," is actually where the ego is hiding. It's hiding in the words. Truth (that which you are) somehow gets "tricked" into being something that it's not. I think it could be that Truth loved what it saw/experiences and then started to "think" that it was what it was looking at (thoughts and other phenomena), rather than "be" what it is. Also, the mind with its limitation cannot understand something it cannot perceive. So, as soon as consciousness takes the form of mind, it gets somehow “stuck”. (I don’t know this for sure, it just seems to be heading that way in terms of my level of understanding through the combination of the pointings of spiritual teachers, contemplation and of my awakening experiences). I don't want to cause you anymore confusion about this, if confusion is arising. I know that what I am saying is somehow being taken in somewhere, subconsciously. I want to make sure that my explanations are clear and cover many doors, so to speak (doors of understanding). "But there are things I should do to get closer to Truth, like Self-Inquiry etc. Can you explain how the confusion comes from this not-seeing?" Being confused about not getting this or not-seeing is arising in that which you are. In that moment, you be that which is "watching" the confusion arise. The Truth that you are doesn't bother itself with the confusion of the mind. The Truth won't endeavour to "resolve" this confusion about itself. You as Truth has watched this confusion arrive, and it will watch it pass. It will watch a seeming "you" pass as not-Truth. I want to try and explain something here and I'll try my best. It came to me one day when I thought about and contemplated how dreams work. It seems that, in our dreams, the whole event adheres to the laws of physics and nature (to some major extent - like we don’t have crazy psychedelic experiences in our dreams about being a mushroom and having hands made of a shape we've never seen before). It's almost as if we cannot dream anything that is not within our experience or imagination. We cannot dream about something that we cannot imagine. This for me was a good take-away for how enlightenment works. We cannot "imagine" God or Truth. It's almost as if the mind (as an energy field of thought forms and images) is a closed-system which cannot perceive anything outside of itself. In the dream state this manifests as an experience of things that we can imagine. In the waking state this manifests as thoughts about our life and the world. For example, we cannot think about something that we cannot think about. We cannot imagine something that we cannot imagine. And right now, we cannot even begin to fathom a life any different to the one we’re experiencing. Why? because we're seemingly, somehow "trapped" inside the closed-system of our minds. In your contemplation you need to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that that same doubt about not being that which you perceive, arises in a perceiving-ness (awareness) of that which you are (that which you cannot perceive). This doubt is arising in you as Truth. (this is very hard to convey with words lol). If we are Truth, and we cannot see Truth. Then, by inference, we are not that which we can perceive, in essence. An effort to “get closer” to Truth is actually taking you further away. Why? Because Truth is what you already are. The seeming “movement” of “you” getting closer to Truth is happening inside you, you as Truth. Can you see where confusion comes? Here we can replace Truth with reality, God, awareness, consciousness.. Nothing. You sense doubt rising from this nothingness. It takes form and builds into a more coherent form of thought about doubt and how you aren't already everything you ever needed to be. This form can take the shape of "I'm not good enough" and "I'm confused about life and how it all fits together" and "I want to work this out so that I can have a more fulfilling life", etc. When you know what you are you still see confusion, but you can see it for what it is. It doesn't move you from what you are. You are not "in it", so to speak. The confusion and the one confused is a "happening" or "event" that happens outside of you as Truth. From an absolute standpoint, we could say that the event happens outside of and inside of you. Maybe a better way to put it is this: the confusion and the one confused is only but a piece of what you are. It's not the whole. It is not you in essence. "Good point. I just want to be a dumb teenager sometimes. I know this won't really satisfy me. Haha, I feel like such a child writing this: "I want to be stupid! And I wanna know the truth! And I want sex!! But what do I need to do!?!?!" = A boiled down version of my thought process." Hahah I know what you mean. I guess we can always let the ego seemingly eclipse what we are. Here when I say ego I just mean that which we think we are. When you say "I know this won't really satisfy me" I can see from this that you will probably continue to strive for enlightenment (try not to build any ideas about what enlightenment is). Instead of striving for enlightenment you can go the other way (toward openness and lovingness). I like to see the movement out of ego as moving along a line, on the far right is faith and openness and going against all beliefs and opening up your arms and love to life in all of its ways. On the far left, is going inward to find what we are through self-enquiry (both directions have their own practices). Ultimately, they take us to the same place. Think about this, it is just as hard for you to open up your arms to life and love it limitlessly (without end) as it is for you to get enlightened through discovery of the Self through self-enquiry. In both cases, something needs to "die". Because in both cases, we think that we will die. If I open up my arms and take in the world for everything that it is and give myself to it completely, if I give myself to God, I might die. Similarly, if I look inward and try to discover what is really here, I might see what I'm not, and I might die. "I sorta grasp what you mean but I can barely 'play' with the understanding, again: confused. What is the reason, then that I shouldn't be on "my mind's" path?" What I wrote there is very advanced in terms of understanding. I would say don't try to work it out. Don't try to place or force my story of the path and how you are the path over what is here and now. In Truth, I am both wrong and right at the same time. So, don't listen to me (in a way of trying to apply it in any way). See how far you come in your enlightenment work and then when you see it you will remember what was said here and it will serve as kind of like a confirmation of your findings. You cannot say that you are that plastic bag blowing in the wind across the road, yet. So, don't try to force it. Try to prove or disprove it. A forcing or effort in the direction of trying to prove or live what I am saying will make things harder and add layers of confusion - if it is not first a part of your own experience. Find this to be a part of your experience. Honestly, in a way, it is so simple that it is too difficult to understand. It is so simple that understanding is not needed, and so, trying to understand it takes us away from it. Trying to understand you will take you away from you. Why? Because you can never understand you. You are too big. Hahah I just see a massive inconsistency and contradiction here: where I wrote "What I wrote here is very advanced in terms of understanding" and then I write "Understanding is not needed". See, this is why it's so hard to describe it and also to find it lol. Maybe it would have been better if I wrote: "What I wrote here is very advanced in terms of experience/knowing/along the path". We cannot understand that which we need to experience. Sometimes we cannot understand that which we have experienced, period. "What thoughts are you referring to? And how do they play-out?" I tend to be very "projecty" in these cases. I cannot experience exactly what you are going through. I can only follow a "compass" of sorts - through a lens of my personal conditioning and what I know. Which is hopefully structured in such a way that it can break through boundaries of communication. The thoughts that I am referring to are: 1. thoughts at all, 2. Thoughts in terms of there being "no rush", 3. Confusion (lots of it, feeling stuck, feelings and thoughts expressing themselves as every shape and pulling me in every direction, counter-thoughts, etc. Basically the whole package of phycological suffering, both subtle and gross forms). Again, I can only speak here from my personal, relative experience of suffering. Maybe we can call them "negative" thoughts, and ones that have no grounding in reality. The thoughts play-out as a type of poking-ness at "I" as ego. The thing that goes unnoticed is that this "poking-ness" and the mind's incompatibility with its own projections, is stirring up enough mud in the water to cause this type of confusion. This confusion isn’t no ordinary confusion. It's not a confusion about what to have for dinner (although it can manifest as this if you don't like the idea of "indecisiveness"). This confusion is an existential confusion. Served to us by God through the wonder of evolution. Don't try to get rid of the confusion. Pour your love onto this confusion. This confusion is serving you and will be a catalyst for your spiritual growth. I hope that this has helped and I am sorry if I caused more confusion. Actually, I might try and simplify this into one expression so that it'll dot the i's and cross the t's, potentially. You are that undisturbed presence. You have never been touched. You are perfect. Only the things that you are not can change. Nothing has ever moved you from this place. You cannot be defined by your mind. A thought can only wish that it can know you. It is so hard for you to see because God loves you now, without being able to see. I am with you. Peace dude Lenny

I find this to be true for me as well. When I am totally immersed in existence, there is no sense of an I anymore, just awareness. Something I cannot name, and a sense of peace, love, joy, and wonder rises. Also, there is wisdom within all religions. I was wondering about it one night, I was finding myself focusing on being fully in the now (Eckhart Tolle's teaching), observing what is in front of me - and it hit me! There is no now because the now is Nothingness, God, Love; as a human, you can only be in the past or future. To be in the Now means to not be in the world, but outside of it, through it, to be nothing, to be the space for it. Actually, you are both at the same time, we just choose to be human, in the world, more than we choose nothingness. Creation is God's will, your will. I find it more helpful to embrace it than to look for a way out. That being said, I do go into nothingness every morning for a few minutes. It helps me guide my day with love, instead of separation.

@AlwaysBeNice god/nothingness/existential consciousness, all just words, I use them interchangeably. Don't want to get stuck there. Creation/happening/appearance, same. All limited notions, this and not that. I don't assume god to be personal per se, or impersonal. Never claimed this. I don't feel lonely right now. Everything's fine. Just try to integrate my experience. Of course they are not true in the absolute sense, since they are limited, within truth, within consciousness. You don't realize your own belief system. You have theories like "It came out of nothingness, as an existential happening" , "Oneness organizes things through love intelligence and law of attraction, but it didn't make these things". It's the same. Just words and thoughts, not absolute truth. The moment you speak against me, you take a postition. You can't free yourself from it, using dualistic lanuage. Claiming: "All one can say is delusional" is itself something said. "Everything is relative" is an absolute statement. Thinking "every thought is wrong" is athought. I did never say god created itself because of loneliness. This doesn't make any sense obviously. But claiming there is no intention behind the relative world is not better or worse than claiming there is an intention per se. Duality, word games. Whatever is true and not these word games can't and doesn't need to be spoken or explained or corrected. I experienced infinite loneliness, in that sense it's real to me. It has its place WITHIN consciousness, I can't deny it from my very experience. As long as you didn't experience it, you can deny it if you want. Whether it happened out of love, by chance, because of loneliness or whatever, just words, just perspectives. It is. But why is there something like torture? Your "existential happening"-explanations are as pointless as saying its because god is infenitely lonely. You could say by definition, in the beginning there was something like an "existential happening", I dont refer to this because it explains nothing, and thats not what I intend when using language. Not saying anything makes more sense than saying something obsolete. If this is what you realize for yourself, fine. I don't even need to realize it, it can't even be doubted that we must take the first miracle for granted, no matter if we call it existential happening, nothingness, god or big band or whatever. So I dont refer to this. Absolute truth is true for everyone everytime everywhere, so no need to talk about it. We must go one step further to speak meaningful words about what comes next. So why does torture exist? Different perspectives, one of which I experienced and refer to as infinite loneliness. If that is too much for you already, just stay "existentially happened".

So we're left with pure nothingness experiencing pure light, which shifts into "things" and "forms".

So it is all an existential happening that came out of nothingness and will return to nothingness when the body dies? Did I understand your point?

^ it's not that you didn't touch upon something deeper, but people need to understand all story and concepts such as 'god did this, god did that', 'god wants this god wants that', are all still completely untrue. Yes it sounds profound and it may be fun to talk about, but really it's not true, i'm sorry. But the mind may think it is and perpetuate it's drama. So I'm not saying it to invalidate your experience, but I want to hammer this over and over again, all thoughts are not true. You try to personify God that way because the ego likes to hold on to concepts, albeit that makes it stay in ignorance ultimately as well as fear. Because really, it's all more simple than that, so simple the mind cannot do anything with it, so scares the thinking mind, so when it gets closer to it it starts to imagine concepts to hold onto to it's identity. --There is just what appears, and consciousness is free from it inherently. That's it. Only that must be realized. There is no real God either. It came out of nothingness, as an existential happening. Oneness organizes things through love intelligence and law of attraction, but it didn't make these things. _ So when you say I imagined this to escape loneliness etc, that's still the mind talking, because from a deeper level, there is no thinking going, nor is there any loneliness. All thoughts about what appears are simply baseless. .. Never the less useful that you talk about it, because leaving these ideas unchecked can really gnaw on people, also a reason why psychedelics are kinda dangerous, especially because people tend to think that the thoughts they have on them are like the great given insights, and no offense! This happens a lot. Also you didn't imagine anything, this tends to imply that somehow you 'willed' existence into existence, you didn't, you can't will yourself or existence to have existed, it just is, or it appears when it appears. Just as you don't make your dreams come by will. Leo didn't understand this at one point too, though imagining can also refer to the fact that manifest life is mental in nature, part of mind.

@Petals Thank you for contributing! ? Good Stuff,,, Gurdjieff International Review Sayings of Gurdjieff An excerpt from A Study of Gurdjieff’s Teaching by Kenneth Walker Gurdjieff had the capacity to convey so much in some forceful saying that his words echoed for a long time in the hearers’ minds. His maxims did not usually take the form of polished aphorisms for, although he was acquainted with many different tongues, he was a master of none of them, and was inclined to poke fun at what he called the ‘bon ton literary language.’ Indeed, some of his phrases were memorable chiefly because of their colloquial character, such as that saying of his which Ouspensky so often quoted: ‘To know everything it is necessary to know only a very little but to know that very little is to know pretty much.’ A great deal of the force in G’s maxims was imparted by the man who uttered them, and this force is absent from the written word. Yet despite the weakening which his sayings will undergo in print, I have felt it worth while recording some of them in this final chapter. If it were possible for me to introduce them with a short and telling description of the man who uttered them and whose presence made such a strong impact—not necessarily favourable—on everybody who came into contact with him, I would do so, but I have never read any successful description of him. I shall not attempt, therefore, to make a thumbnail drawing of a man so difficult to portray as George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff. His maxims must stand by themselves. It is better to be temporarily selfish than never to be just. Only conscious suffering is of value. Man is given a limited quantity of experiences; being economical with them lengthens his life. Know that this house is of value only to those who have recognized their nothingness and believe it is possible to alter. Here we can only direct and create conditions, but not help. Remember that here work is not done for work’s sake, but as a means. Like what it does not like. Conscious love evokes the same in response. Emotional love evokes the opposite. Physical love depends on type and polarity. Faith of consciousness is freedom. Faith of feeling is slavery. Faith of body is stupidity. Hope of consciousness is strength. Hope of feeling is cowardice. Hope of body is disease. Only he can be impartial who is able to put himself into the position of others. We can only strive to be able to be Christians. I love him who loves work. Judge others according to yourself and you will seldom be mistaken. Consider what others think of you, not what they say. If you are not critical by nature, it is useless for you to remain here. He who has got rid of the disease ‘Tomorrow’ has the possibility to attain what he is here for. If you already know what is wrong and do it, you commit a sin that is difficult to redress. The chief means of happiness in this life is the ability to consider outwardly always, inwardly never. One of the strongest motives for the wish to work on yourself is the realization that you may die at any moment—only you must first realize this. Man is refreshed not by the quantity but by the quality of sleep—sleep little without regret. The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do. Here there are neither English nor Russians, Jews nor Christians, but only those following one aim, to be able to be. Take the understanding of the East and the knowledge of the West and then seek. Only he who can take care of the property of others can have his own. Remember yourself always and everywhere. A good man loves his father and mother. Help him only who strives not to be an idler. Love not art with your feelings. Respect all religions. Judge no one according to the tales of others. Blessed is he who hath a soul, Blessed is he who hath none, Woe and sorrow to him who hath it in conception. The worse the conditions of life, the greater the possibility for productive work, provided you work consciously. The energy expended in active inner work is immediately transformed into new energy; that expended in passive work is lost forever. Practice love on animals first; they react better and more sensitively. I add some additional sayings of Gurdjieff’s, most of which have been abstracted from accounts of meetings taken by him in London and America during the years 1921–24: There is only one kind of magic and this is ‘doing.’ All energy spent on conscious work is an investment; that spent mechanically is lost forever. We must destroy our buffers. Children have none; therefore we must become like little children. We attract forces according to our being. Humanity is the earth’s nerve-endings through which planetary vibrations are received for transmission. Everything in the universe has a place in a scale. No energy is ever lost in the cosmic scheme. One twentieth of all our energy goes to emotional and instinctive centres. Self-remembering is a lamp which must be kept alight by energy from these two centres. Our thinking centre is not really a centre, but an apparatus for collecting impressions. Formatory apparatus resembles a hired typist who works for a firm and has a large number of stereotyped replies for external impressions. She sends printed replies to other centres who are the ‘directors’ of the firm and who are strangers to each other. Wrong replies are often sent, as the typist is asleep or lazy. In deep sleep all communication between centres is closed. Our sleep is bad because we do not cut off lines of communication. We have good and bad angels. The good angels work by way of our voluntary, active nature and the bad through our passive nature. Mr. Self-love and Madame Vanity are the two chief agents of the devil. Do not be affected by externals. In themselves they are harmless; it is we who allow ourselves to be hurt by them. We never reach the limits of our strength. If we do what we like doing, we are immediately rewarded by the pleasure of doing it. If we do what we don’t like doing the reward must come later. It is a mathematical law and all life is mathematics. Man is a symbol of the laws of creation; in him there is evolution, involution, struggle, progress and retrogression, struggle between positive and negative, active and passive, yes and no, good and evil. Men have their minds and women their feelings more highly developed. Either alone can give nothing. Think what you feel and feel what you think. Fusion of the two produces another force. For some people religion is useful but for others it is only a policeman. We are sheep kept to provide wool for our masters who feed us and keep us as slaves of illusion. But we have a chance of escape and our masters are anxious to help us, but we like being sheep. It is comfortable. He who can love can be; he who can be can do; he who can do is. Sincerity is the key to self-knowledge and to be sincere with oneself brings great suffering. Sleep is very comfortable, but waking is very bitter. Free will is the function of the Master within us. Our ‘will’ is the supremacy of one desire over another. Eastern art has a mathematical basis. It is a script with an inner and an outer content. In Persia there is a room in a monastery which makes one weep owing to mathematical combinations of different parts of its architecture. Real art is knowledge and not talent. An ordinary man has no ‘Master.’ He is ruled now by the mind, now by the feelings and now by the body. Often the order comes from the automatic apparatus and still more often he is ordered about by the sex centre. Real will can only be when one ‘I’ rules, when there is a ‘master’ in the house. Morality is a stick with two ends; it can be turned this way and that. From the time when man began to live on the Earth, from the time of Adam onwards, there started to be formed within him, with the help of God, of Nature, and of all his surroundings, an organ whose function is conscience. Every man has this organ, and whoever is guided by it automatically lives according to God’s commandments. If our consciences were clear, and not buried, there would be no need to speak about morality, for consciously or unconsciously everyone would behave according to God’s commandments. Unfortunately conscience is covered up with a kind of crust which can be pierced only by intense suffering; then conscience speaks. But after a while a man calms down and once more the organ becomes covered over and buried. You should forget about morality. Conversations about morality are simply empty talk. Your aim is inner morality. External morality is different everywhere. You should understand, and establish it as a firm rule, not to pay attention to other people’s opinions. You must be free of people surrounding you, and when you are free inside you will be free of them. To be just at the moment of action is a hundred times more valuable than to be just afterwards. To gain anything real, long practice is necessary. Try to accomplish very small things first. There are two kinds of doing—automatic and doing what you ‘wish.’ Take a small thing which you ‘wish’ to do and cannot do and make this your God. Let nothing interfere. If you ‘wish,’ you can. Without wishing you never ‘can.’ ‘Wish’ is the most powerful thing in the world. To bear the manifestation of others is a big thing. The last thing for a man. In the river of life suffering is not intentional. In conscious life suffering is intentional and of great value. To love one must first forget all about love. Make it your aim and look for direction. As we are we cannot possibly love. Until a man uncovers himself he cannot see. Aphorisms © 1924 G. I. Gurdjieff A Study of Gurdjieff’s Teaching © 1957 Fletcher & Son Ltd. This webpage © 1997 Gurdjieff Electronic Publishing Featured: Fall 1997 Issue, Vol. I (1) Revision: April 1, 2000

Absolute truth is infinite nothingness.

“To attain direct knowledge of what enlightenment is, it’s important to understand that everything that exists — the entire universe, time and space and all of life including each and every one of us – is a manifest or material expression of that which does not exist. From nothing came something. The unmanifest became the manifest. From the empty void, this whole material universe, which eventually gave rise to energy and matter, life and the capacity for self knowing awareness, dramatically emerged. Everything that exists came from this absolute nothingness. That means nothing is the source of everything that is. This fundamental mystical insight is basically this: that the ultimate essence of everything that exists is this no-thing-ness. Traditionally, this is the revelation that enlightens — that frees the self from attachment to the world, the process of creation, and everything in it. This is when we discover the limitless interior dimension of our own Being, when consciousness begins to open to itself to an immeasurable degree and when we discover the unmanifest dimension of reality. In that mysterious domain, there is no time, no space, no world, and no mind. Nothing has happened yet. This absolute nothingness or voidness or emptiness is traditionally called the Ground of Being. When we discover the literally infinite, timeless, formless nature of this dimension, we recognize that. This is what it was like before the universe was created”. You creating the universe or all these process right now with your thoughts, because when you read you thought, you learn something. If you dont think, you are absolute infinite nothingness. “In this understanding you know that every part of yourself is also not separate from that empty ground from which literally everything emerged when time began. That unmanifest dimension is always at the very core of ALL of your experience in every single moment, including this one, whether you are aware of it or not. When seen from an evolutionary perspective, unmanifest nothingness is not nothing. There is nothing happening there, and yet, inherent in the nothingness is an ungraspable mystery that is deeply compelling”. This so called world is all nothing, nothing inside of the body, you are here all as nothing, therefore nobody is here. The funny shit is “I” this person is completely illusion who write these messages, body is empty lol. When i look at around, I am everything but at the same time, i dont see anything because i am not there as something (which can see), and am there as nothing, which cant see or be seeing (thats why “I” that see something is an completely illusion). If i cant be seeing and cant see anything. ALL IS ME AS NOTHING. holly shit therefore why I AM NOTHING THEREFORE EVERYTHING , I AM HERE AS NOTHING THEREFORE I AM NOT HERE, I AM EVERYWHERE. “That is why when you enter into a very deep state of meditation, it is always so absolutely enthralling. Why? Because in that absolute nothingness there always exists the infinite creative potential for everything that burst forth as the entire universe. That unmanifest domain is the indestructible, transcendental realm of infinite potential that forever abides before anything has happened. The unmanifest domain is a place where everything is possible, but where nothing has ever happened. In this absolute emptiness there is a positive creative tension, experienced as a profound and powerful state of suspended awakeness. This unbroken tension exists in the infinite depths of consciousness precisely because everything is possible, but has not yet occurred. This is the vibration of empty-fullness that is so completely enthralling”. All these process are existed by thoughts, if we never know what the universe is or enlightenment is we can never find our true self, we create thoughts (duality) to discover our true self (non duality) through meditation or no thinking. This is an self masturbation everything is you, all the process (thoughts, enlightenment, human, language), entire universe but as NOTHING. Thats why there is no enlightenment because you are already it, whatever you do doesn’t change anything, everything is it NOTHING. Nothing has ever occurred here and nothing is happening. That why i (nothing) am everything, everywhere and every happening. “When l speak about the manifest expression of enlightenment, I’m pointing very specifically to what happened at that precise moment when nothing took that unimaginable leap and became everything. What happens when nothingness, which is the essence of everything that exists, becomes manifest? It’s important to try and recognize that moment in your very own experience. What we’re interested in here, is locating that same vibration—that same energy, that same intelligence—that initiated the entire creative process at the very beginning of time and history, in your own experience”. IMPORTANCE OF THE MOMENT AND NOW. https://www.andrewcohen.com/nothing-something/

They are identical, the only thing that makes they are different because of the thoughts. Life is not exist if you dont think. These sentences, me, you, chair are different because you label it with thoughts. If you dont think nothing will be exist. But that nothing is awareness itself. Thats why you are or so called here is awareness itself. Life is happening only in thoughts. When you lift up the thoughts , everything is identical thats why all is nothingness but awareness itself. Nothing is inside of the body, so how can you write these messages? You are not writing anything, you are just labeling. You are nothing but aware, thats why you are everything. Have you ever experienced infinite nothingness or formlessness? If you cant think, what will be left? Or what is the only thing that you can not forget?

Whatever you think the formless is not the actual formlessness. Because it's form-less. The formless must be hidden forever. Because whatever appears must be some kind of form! That's why I say the only thing that exists is forms. Nothingness or formlessness or pure awareness. You are aware as a human now. Take away your body, whatever left, it is you. You are nothing, therefore you are everything. Not 2, only 1. If there is no awareness, nothing can be exist. You are mothing but aware, thats why you are everything and aware (such as human now). Non duality or nothingness is the awakening. Every form based on formlessness to take any form.