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In Zen, they just wack people like JP and Sam Harris across the face. You have to appreciate that most nondual teachers are preaching to the choir. They only teach that tiny percentage of the population which is already primed and ripe for the teaching. They make no effort to prime the rest of the population. You either come begging the Zen master for a teaching, or you have no chance to even enter the Zendo. It's one game to teach primed people nonduality. It's another game entirely to prime the vulgar masses to be receptive to nonduality. If you want to make your life easy as a teacher, you only teach students who are Spiral stages Green and above. The really hard work is teaching Orange and below, who are dense, arrogant, and numerous as fuck.

That is my natural inclination, but one of the problems with teaching self-actualization and nonduality is that people get so sucked into all sorts of twisted ideologies -- like that of JP, Sam Harris, Stefan Molyneux, SJW, capitalism, post-modernism, anti-post-modernism, etc. -- that it becomes impossible to teach them without some amount of deconstruction work. That is in fact the unconscious goal of people like JP, Sam Harris, Stefan Molyneux, etc. -- their job is to make the intellectual marketplace so muddied, confused, and polarized that it becomes impossible for people to find serious spiritual teachings. This is no accident. This is how the devil works: through muddying the water. The devil knows he can never win on merit because his position if fundamentally false, so all he can do is confuse people and stall out the clock. This is a classic tactic use by global warming deniers, for example. They just need to muddy the waters and sow enough doubt to stall out the clock to get their paycheck. So some of these devils need to be called out on their BS sometimes, to put them in their place. Otherwise the unwitting masses start to take them too seriously. An intelligent devil like JP or Sam Harris is a dangerous thing. It is not obvious how he is wrong and how best to rebut him. To a casual observer a lot of the things he says ring true and reasonable. Of course that's precisely how the devil works. He sprinkles nuggets of truth into his bullshit lasagna. The purpose of all ideologies is to distract from truth-seeking. Which is why ideologies have been so widespread throughout all of human history up to and including today. The devil's strategy is: flood the marketplace with so much bullshit that people cannot even tell that actual Truth is possible. If you want to safeguard a precious diamond, throw it into an ocean of liquid shit full of fake diamonds. Then no one will ever find it.

@Finland3286 Another thing you can do is research. Read 10 diverse books on nonduality and that will clear a lot of stuff up for you. You don't have to reinvent the wheel here. Mankind has understood nonduality for 5000 years at least. It's all been written down for those who care to read. It's sort of like you're struggling your way through mathematics when all you gotta do is pick up a math textbook. Nonduality is actually older and more solid than mathematics. They just don't teach it in school because it destroys all reality and society.

@Misagh Breath focused meditation.....then out of the blue, pop - oneness/no longer the body...then obe’s (only 2?)....then there was a ‘both’ period...then a hero’s dose....nonduality....no memory anymore of identifying as the body before all this.

Imagine that you, as an 'I' of some sort (doesn't matter how we draw the lines and if we even agree on what 'I' really is), is floating in an ocean that is 'the other'(universe, consciousness, energy, spirit etc.). Now, you were in the ocean before you learned to swim, and you have had to find out how to by yourself. Naturally you have ended up deeply entangled in the ocean, that is you are deep underwater going in loops. You cannot remember when you were above the water, and you have just invented a way of swimming/being in the ocean that feels sort of right by 'winging it' and comparing yourself to other swimmers doing their thing and copying those who seem to have it all figured out while avoiding those who seems like they are drowning. The further below the surface the higher the force of the waters above, so naturally you would want to be as close to the surface as possible. You might, at some point start realizing that 'I' and 'other', 'ocean' and 'not-ocean', are like to sides of the same thing, and that the more you struggle the more struggle you get. You may start to realize that the problems you try to solve are created mostly by yourself. The more problems you let go of the lighter you get, and start floating towards the surface. Every step along the way up is held back by the noise of the past, so that to reach total quietness and stillness that allows you to get to the surface, you'll have to go through a lifetime of misconceptions. All along the way you'll be pointed in the right direction, but the deeper you are the less light there'll naturally be, so the finger is often mistaken for that which is pointed to; the map gets mistaken for the territory. This is made much more difficult, as you have no idea which finger is the right one to follow, and everyone, those stuck in the same part of the whirlpool and those at higher levels, seem to think they know all there is to know. As you are in a sort of whirlpool, the way to the surface is like a spiral, where every step is a new loop that persists till it dissolves to make room for the next loop and so on until the surface is reached. The more movement of thought, the deeper down you'll be and the faster the whirlpool will spin. Every swimmer is stuck in their own kind of spiral, that is just a version of an 'arche-spiral' (the different colors of 'spiral dynamics'), that is a loop of thought. The closer to the surface the quieter the mind gets, and therefore the loops of thought gets harder to see through/spot. If every swimmer along the way, at every stage of the spiraling whirlpool, is basically holding himself there by attachment to a certain thought-loop that is founded by unresolved noise of the past, then someone at the surface, if he wishes, can dive down and step into that part of the whirlpool and attempt to dissolve the struggling swimmers thought-loop little by little. This is where the conceptual ideas of nonduality(nonduality is what we attempt to realize as it is essentially the surface we wish to reach) has their place. But one must recognize that different people needs to hear different things at different stages of their personal development. What is wise words to one may be foolish to another. Nonduality as an idea can be used to get people towards the surface, and show them the outlines of that nondual state on the other side, but it can never be reached as long as it is thought of. To reach it, to breach the surface and reach 'absolute truth', one must let go of thought about 'absolute truth'. You can never escape the whirlpool as long as you think, as the whirlpool is essentially thought.

@Serotoninluv Just think about it: nonduality means: not two. So any time you think of two parts to the world, you're not fully nondual yet. If there was a distinction between the formless state and your present formed perception state, that would be a duality. So you know that cannot be ultimately true. The final duality to eliminate is the duality between nonduality and duality! The snake must eat its own tail until nothing remains. Mu is the formless void state but ALSO the whole shebang: all of formed creation. Take a moment to look around the room you're sitting in right now. That is none other than Mu. To be fully nondual is to be conscious of Nothingness all the time, everywhere, no matter if you're in a formless state or eating breakfast. That is true awakening.

@Elisabeth No-self is a relatively weak version of enlightenment. There are deeper stages of which few people are aware. Martin's work is good (for an academic), but it's certainly not fathoming the full depth of nonduality. I posted about Martin on my blog some years ago. Martin's problem is that he's still not really understanding what science is and its limitations. He's still trying to demystify and rationalize everything -- as scientists are trained to do.

No! That's the kicker! Nonduality is not a paradigm. If it were, it would be duality, not nonduality. You are making the mistake of confusing the map for the territory. Just consider: for there to be a paradigm at all, there must exist something prior to the paradigm -- the substrate so to speak -- which itself is not a paradigm. That substrate must be inaccessible via thoughts because thoughts themselves are a 2nd order phenomena of the substrate. Paradigms only occur at the level of thought. A paradigm IS a collection of thoughts. No thought, no paradigms. You can stop thinking an reality will still continue. But all paradigms will be destroyed.

I'm not offering a concept, awareness perception, or perceiving from awareness isn't a concept, it is the IS of our consciousness experience. Yes, for me to communicate it I have to conceptualize it in language in my mind but I'm not offering the concept, it's pointing to the IS of awareness perception. From that perceptual IS of awareness the mind's concept of duality does not exist. So there is no this or that, X or Y, left or right, right or wrong, truth or illusion... none of it exists in awareness perception. It's not duality resolved into non-duality. A sunset and sunrise IS the same event, not opposite ones. The dualism mindset perceives in binary conceptual paradigms, even the concept of resolving duality into nonduality or the concept of dissolving concepts is conceptually binary to it. It's perceiving what IS without the mind's conceptual duality instead of using the mind to dissolve the mind's conceptual paradigm. It's awareness of what IS through pre-conceptualization perspective, so to speak.

The concepts the two of us are offering IS concepts the two of us are offering. The challenge isn't the concept. The challenge is viewing a concept as a concept. The human mind loves to think X is Y. That's all we are doing here. You have one way of saying X is Y and I have another way of saying X is Y. The content of X and Y is irrelevant. How can X be Y? X IS X and Y IS Y. A concept of nonduality IS a concept of nonduality. A sunset IS a sunset. A thought about the meaning of life IS a thought about the meaning of life. The human mind fixates on what is on the left and right side of IS. Yet, the key part is the IS. With time, that which is on the left and right side of IS dissolves and there is only IS.

If you have no 'horse' why did you quote me and challenge me to 'race'? We could just run around willy nilly in the field enjoying the grass, I'm down with it. You don't have to fit everything into your concept of nonduality..... jussayin'.

@SOUL I agree that what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what I'm writing is within nonduality. I've got no horse in the race.

I'm highlighting that nonduality includes what you wrote, the opposite of what you wrote and every possible variation of what you wrote. Don't get attached to any concept of nonduality.

I'd be careful about giving *meaning* to insights. It looks like you are gaining some insight into symbols, relativity and nonduality. Yet, it seems like your mind is adding a lot of extra stuff: "Symbols are there to hide the truly miraculous nature of things, and in doing so, hell within the mind is created since we divorce ourselves from what is." "Hellish" is just one interpretation. I find what you described to be sooo fascinating. I want learn more and more about it!! It's exciting!!

Nonduality is sort of the ending of paradigms, as it contains all paradigms. When we speak of it we try to explain that which lies beyond explanation, and attempt to guide thought to its end. It's like we are helping each-other find the key to our minds. But as you are pointing out, non-duality as an idea is dual in nature. It can point towards the truth but it can never be the truth.

Seeing everything in dualism is a misperception of the mind and isn't an accurate representation of existence so nonduality is merely a reaction to the misperception.

That why it's so hard to speak about nonduality. There is everything and no thing. Would the concept of nonduality be within everything? Yes Would the concept of duality be within everything? Yes Would every possible thought regarding nonduality be within everything? Yes The concepts of everything and nothing are hard to fathom since our brains have been programmed to perceive the world dualistically.

@Gligorije It’s unbelivable, in the sense, try as hard as you can, the brain is incapable of imaging nonduality. What a paradox, imagination is.

@Zeldor Great work. It’s nice to relate to others on nonduality. ?

It's funny because despite all that is said about how radical enlightenment is (and yes it is radical), I've never felt that way. I never had a moment when I freaked out about the Truth. It was more like, "Oh okay so that's what it is. Yes it has always been the only Truth." What I mean is that there was never a moment of great shock like many people said there would be. Sure it still came to me in a snap, but there was no great mindfuck accompanied with it. I think its because prior to getting self-realized I already had a pretty clear idea of how its going to be through intense work with imagination. Also this is gold: "This is why you shouldn't try to teach nonduality to your cat." @Leo Gura

I would consider that as sympathy. Empathy is extrasensory. An empathetic experience is an expression of nonduality. A form of oneness. Most of my life, I repressed my empathetic system. It was a distraction from my Orange-level pursuits. Emapthy got in the way of pursuing personal awards, grants. degrees, titles, recognition etc. A couple years ago, I transitioned into the Green stage and became aware of an empathy system. I’ve worked to develop this sense and I have made a lot of progress. I can receive empatheic information at times communicating with others. I’m still at a begginer stage and I can get overwhelmed at times. Like I actually experience what another is experiencing- it could be insecurity, fear, anger, joy. I actually have their experience. About a month ago, my friends and I were walking through a city. I made eye contact with a young homeless woman. All of a sudden I went into empathy mode and was overcome with absolute despair. I experienced the despair of her new meth addiction. I experienced depths of loneliness, having noone to turn to. It was overwhelming. Yet, I don’t want uncomfortable experiences like that to prevent me from developing empathic skills.

Leo mentions 99 names of Allah from Understanding Islam. Which is amazing. I connected these names of allah along with spiral dynamics and human ego. I came to understand that This is what absolute reality wants. Absolute reality wants chaos, wants destruction, and on other hand wants people to love each other and get together and unite but Oh Boy, what love really means according to absolute infinity that Humans love to unite with other humans via means of total conquest and ideology. This is love according to reality. I completely surrender now and no longer resist, my ego jumps every now and then tells me to go fuck other humans up because that's what god desires it to be and i Ignore it and You can't believe what backfires I am experiencing!!!. What are other possible names you can come up to describe absolute infinity apart from 99 names of allah or traditional religious names such as Yahweh, ahura mazdah, allah, Holy spirit, Spaghetti monster, nonduality. Here's 99 names https://99namesofallah.name/ which made me cry and those attributes resonate even in most humans to some extent. Can You guys come up with awesome names that explain this majestic absolute infinity and explain its meaning mystically.

Leo where can I find other mystical names. It just generates so much endorphins contemplating nonduality

All resolves in nonduality. That’s just me though.

Contemplation on every topic has worked well for me, but I’m wondering now if I should just stay present more. One the one hand, contemplation seems necessary for a lot of insights. But on the other hand, maybe just being present will do more for me. I could have insights just from observing what is around me. What is a good balance? Or should I start to just focus more on mindfulness? I’m not sure, since contemplation seems like a really good method. If I could just focus on mindfulness for nonduality maybe I could just do that and reach infinity. Contemplation seems like a good method for that too though(neti neti). Which one would be better? Is just being in the moment the best way to go(mindfulness and also just being present)? If I’m seeing infinity in My everyday experience, should I continue to contemplate? Or just basque in the presence of it? I remember osho said he stopped reading books cuz it wasn’t raising his being. Maybe I could just focus on my being? How important will contemplation be after infinity is seen at all times? How much shadow work and personal development work is really needed at that level of consciousness? Wouldn’t a lot of it just naturally fizz out? And as you raise your being won’t you be able to reach the highest without contemplation? Lemme know what you guys think.