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@Aldo Life is a big escape from death. No matter what you do in life, you are running away from death. Even suicide is meant to be an escape from pain which is translated subconsciously to death. So, the question is: where do you want to escape to? Think about that, let your heart lead the way, perhaps the best thing to do is to integrate both.

@Nahm I really like creation too (ha ha - baby part, so true). I can't think of anything else.... except maybe the willingness to die (not in the suicide sense, but ways like: complete openness to physical death at the end of life, or openness to ego death at any point)

@Preetom Murder, violence, suicide and madness IS happening every day all over the world, and is getting worse. This is due to the rejection of the thing holding us all together you talk about and letting the mind rule. Our minds are getting more and more monkey like as our access to knowledge and information increases. Why do you think we need forums like this?

So I'm hallucinating this whole thing. Leo, my family and the entire universe. Nothing more than fake hallucinations with no more life to them than a video on a screen or character in a computer game. I really can't do anything with my life any more as there is nobody to benefit from anything I do. I don't even know why I'm making this post to be honest. Every day I feel nothing. I no longer know how to feel love or joy as there is nothing to achieve and no goal any more. I am absolutely stuck now, suicide is no option and there are no options. I wouldn't say that I'm suffering, there is just no emotion now apart from great fear in the morning. I used to think that we are all pure consciousness, we are all in this mind and when a person awakens, a little bit of that one mind awakens and the whole thing was working to know itself and once the whole mind awakens to its true essence, it was nirvana for eternity. It's not like that. Once I know myself, I just start the cycle again from the stages of primordial sludge and all the misery continues ad infinitum. How the hell do I work with that?

Studying, pondering and looking within myself and seeing the layers upon layers of contradictions, loose ends, faultlines and loopholes; it astonishes me how this whole 'thing' is still in one piece. I mean the whole world. I am astonished how anything functions at all! Given that 99% of people having no clue there is such a thing as meta knowledge. I mean its sooooo easy to poke and break people into ashes from inside out considering how flimsy and dreamlike sand castles our fabricated identities are. It astonishes me how come people seem to get together for few hours without raping and slitting each others throats, how people live in a family for decades without murdering each others, how suicide is not happening in billions, how people are not running outside naked in mass frenzy consumed by gnawing madness, how people dont just smash their heads open against the wall, how they dont pick out the eyeballs of their children and cook it so on and so forth. An absolute benevolent force is indeed operating. Yeah the abovementioned 'scary' cases do happen once in while, but yet there is this astonishing miracle holding it all together. Its a miracle people 'think' they are happy and happiness is possible tomorrow, its a miracle things still feel 'stable' in spite of few hiccups here and there. Its a miracle how everything is still maintained and conducted on time and schedule year after year...as if some almighty force is keeping everyone straight in line by firmly sticking its hand up everyone's butt. Its a miracle! And of course if spoken from plain, honest experience, all of it is my imagination. It is all held together because I have still held it all together

As Leo said, Ralston does not realize love as fundamental so it's not quite the same. For example, many very experienced meditators say that Nirvana is just blackout cassation and they want to get off the wheel of life and rebirth to eternal no experience which they consider the best possible scenario. Bill Hamilton use to say that Buddhism is like "cosmic suicide" club, how radical that is? These realizations are very different from what Leo talks about. What if this is precisely what full ego death means and most egos just can't handle it and want to be in some non-dual state after death - start to believe in eternal live etc.

Now this is perhaps some elementary question in the PD community and the more I read Actualized the more I get the feeling that nothing really matters I think I may not be very evolved yet but all I know from my own experience, is that for most people and myself included, having a purpose or a meaning in what one does or in ones life is very important to mental well being. And that has been proven all over. (e.g. Logotherapy or the general mass delusion of following what you are told and the long term consequences of that shit). Being myself in this quagmire of enduring a meaningless but reasonably paying job that now also violates some of my principles and which is almost impossibly to give up without committing some kind of family-suicide, it becomes evident that it is just not healthy to carry on this way. I can accept what is happening all day long and go along with it but this either a subconscious problem or something more. And it will come back to bite you. Misery, illnesses, regrets... Now technically one could imagine that your purpose and the meaning that you associates to activities is a pure construction of the ego in order to boast one's self importance and do-gooding in the world and feel good about it. Might as well leave your marble bust behind... But now we come to the spiritual side of it, are we all endowed with a purpose or alternatively is the activity we feel to be meaningful something that was given to us as an individual somehow? After distilling the meaning conundrum down to its basics one almost always comes to the point where service to the community or to humanity will be regarded almost universally as a”meaningful” pursuit. I can feel it... most of you will. If I do stuff for others and it helps it feels good. If I am selfish with my family it feels ok for a minute but not in the long term Now isn't that interesting? It appears that there is more behind that, the selflessness – meaning connections is somewhat intriguing. What I also feel curious about (a parallel form the meaning issue) is our so very diversified interests. I see it with my children who had very different interests. From the time they could speak they knew what they liked. Same for me, I liked planes and radios and some technical stuff. Until this very day I do not know why it attracts my curiosity... I cannot figure it out! I was told I pointed my fingers to the sky before I could talk. Isn't that strange? Now many people (I think it perhaps started with Nietzsche, and I may be totally wrong) have said if you don't see a meaning you have to detect it in yourself. Go inside and you shall find it. Now this is a perhaps a very spiritual or even mystical activity and it totally contradicts the ego hypothesis. Now with spiritual I associate something that gives you that kind of inner peace that you wouldn't experience otherwise. A connection to the higher... meaning???? Hence I think Meaning and Purpose is connected to something higher than Ego. What's your take?

Can be ego backslash. Those thoughts about suicide are not yours either. Just let them go too. When you begin to meditate the ego will fight a lot, maybe you are still stuck fighting against the ego. The ego cannot be fought, you only have to observe it and learn his mechanisms to keep you in the matrix. Probably you are crossing what is called The Dark Night of the Soul. That's why it says in the Psalms "Even when I walk through the darkest valley, I will not be afraid, for you are close beside me. Your rod and your staff protect and comfort me." This "walk through a dark valley" is the path of enlightenment that you are going through. You will cross dark valleys to be free.

Iv been meditation everyday, often multiple times a day for 3,5years. I dont see any benefit at all. I use the technique of letting all thoughts go and im good at it. But the cake seems like a massive lie. Is this normal? Leo said in a video that after 10 years you see a massive change. But why dont i see any now? Im not less irretated. Im not less stressed. Im super depressed until the point of contemplating suicide.

With the rise of democracy, the identification of the State with society has been redoubled, until it is common to hear sentiments expressed which violate virtually every tenet of reason and common sense such as, "we are the government." The useful collective term "we" has enabled an ideological camouflage to be thrown over the reality of political life. If "we are the government," then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and untyrannical but also "voluntary" on the part of the individual concerned. If the government has incurred a huge public debt which must be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of another, this reality of burden is obscured by saying that "we owe it to ourselves"; if the government conscripts a man, or throws him into jail for dissident opinion, then he is "doing it to himself" and, therefore, nothing untoward has occurred. Under this reasoning, any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered; instead, they must have "committed suicide," since they were the government (which was democratically chosen), and, therefore, anything the government did to them was voluntary on their part. One would not think it necessary to belabor this point, and yet the overwhelming bulk of the people hold this fallacy to a greater or lesser degree. Murray Rothbard quote

Day 13 [6-4-2019] I went to my psychiatrist today with my mom. It was a very productive conversation. I can clearly see what depression is. I know how it feels in the body. And the medication I am taking is preventing it to happen. All the years I spent studying about Personal Development were useless in a way, because I had depression. And depression makes it impossible for any progress to happen. I used to think medication was "bad". I thought it didn't work. But it does. I took a nap and woke up feeling much better, but my neck and shoulders were really tensed up. I feel a little bit fat, but that's okay. I know I will sooner or later get back to my natural body shape. I feel very attractive lately. I feel like I am glowing. And it's not something I have to think about. I think this has a lot to do with coming out as gay. Not that I will get lost in this label, but just the fact that I have said to the world that I am into guys feels so liberating. I have a consultation with my psychologist on Friday. I think it will be a very good conversation. I know she can help me heal the trauma of my parents' divorce. I contacted my old keyboard teacher, and I think I will have classes with him again. I want to take my car's license by September. Nothing seems to be impossible. I am not on cloud nine, thinking I am invincible or something. It's just a realization that with the right help, I can achieve incredible results in my life, and impact the world positively. I have been talking with a guy who lives relatively close to me. It's very easy to talk with him. And I'd date him. But I am trying not have so much expectation. But I hope to meet him soon. He's pretty and easy-going. "Grief comes and goes, but depression is unremitting" ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "Manic-depression distorts moods and thoughts, incites dreadful behaviors, destroys the basis of rational thought, and too often erodes the desire and will to live. It is an illness that is biological in its origins, yet one that feels psychological in the experience of it, an illness that is unique in conferring advantage and pleasure, yet one that brings in its wake almost unendurable suffering and, not infrequently, suicide." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I wish I could explain it so someone could understand it. I'm afraid it's something I can't put into words. There's just this heavy, overwhelming despair - dreading everything. Dreading life. Empty inside, to the point of numbness. It's like there's something already dead inside. My whole being has been pulling back into that void for months. (81)" ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "When people are suicidal, their thinking is paralyzed, their options appear spare or nonexistent, their mood is despairing, and hopelessness permeates their entire mental domain. The future cannot be separated from the present, and the present is painful beyond solace. ‘This is my last experiment,’ wrote a young chemist in his suicide note. ‘If there is any eternal torment worse than mine I’ll have to be shown." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I have often asked myself whether, given the choice, I would choose to have manic-depressive illness. If lithium were not available to me, or didn't work for me, the answer would be a simple no... and it would be an answer laced with terror. But lithium does work for me, and therefore I can afford to pose the question. Strangely enough, I think I would choose to have it. It's complicated." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I am tired of hiding, tired of misspent and knotted energies, tired of the hypocrisy, and tired of acting as though I have something to hide." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "Anybody who's had to contend with mental illness - whether it's depression, bipolar illness or severe anxiety, whatever - actually has a fair amount of resilience in the sense that they've had to deal with suffering already, personal suffering." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "Others imply that they know what it is like to be depressed because they have gone through a divorce, lost a job, or broken up with someone. But these experiences carry with them feelings. Depression, instead, is flat, hollow, and unendurable. ... You're frightened, and you're frightening, and you're 'not at all like yourself but will be soon,' but you know you won't." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "Far too many doctors-many of them excellent physicians-commit suicide each year; one recent study concluded that, until quite recently, the United States lost annually the equivalent of a medium-sized medical school class from suicide alone. Most physician suicides are due to depression or manic-depressive illness, both of which are eminently treatable. Physicians, unfortunately, not only suffer from a higher rate of mood disorders than the general population, they also have a greater access to very effective means of suicide." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I think that when you're depressed, you can't concentrate long enough and well enough to read for the most part; some people can, but by and large people - that's one of the first things that goes, is the capacity to read meaningful literature. With grief, that's not true. For a while you can't read, but then you really are amenable to solace." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "The awareness of the damage done by severe mental illness—to the individual himself and to others—and fears that it may return again play a decisive role in many suicides" ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "Others would say to me, 'It is only temporary, it will pass, you will get over it,' but of course they had no idea how I felt, although they were certain that they did. Over and over and over I would say to myself, If I can't feel, if I can't move, if I can't think, and I can't care, then what conceivable point is there in living?" ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I have had manic-depressive illness, also known as bipolar disorder, since I was 18 years old. It is an illness that ensures that those who have it will experience a frightening, chaotic and emotional ride. It is not a gentle or easy disease." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I think wanting to write is a fundamental sign of disease and discomfort. I don't think people who are comfortable want to write." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "It is tempting when looking at the life of anyone who has committed suicide to read into the decision to die a vastly complex web of reasons; and, of course, such complexity is warranted. No one illness or event causes suicide; and certainly no one knows all, or perhaps even most, of the motivations behind the killing of the self. But psychopathology is almost always there, and its deadliness is fierce. Love, success, and friendship are not always enough to counter the pain and destructiveness of severe mental illness" ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "No pill can help me deal with the problem of not wanting to take pills; likewise, no amount of psychotherapy alone can prevent my manias and depressions. I need both. It is an odd thing, owing life to pills, one's own quirks and tenacities, and this unique, strange, and ultimately profound relationship called psychotherapy" ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "Every seventeen minutes in America, someone commits suicide. Mostly, I have been impressed by how little value our society puts on saving the lives of those who are in such despair as to want to end them. It is a societal illusion that suicide is rare. It is not." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "One of things so bad about depression and bipolar disorder is that if you don't have prior awareness, you don't have any idea what hit you." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I remember sitting in his office a hundred times during those grim months and each time thinking, 'What on earth can he say that will make me feel better or keep me alive?' Well, there never was anything he could say, that's the funny thing. It was all the stupid, desperately optimistic, condescending things he didn't say that kept me alive; all the compassion and warmth I felt from him that could not have been said; all the intelligence, competence, and time he put into it; and his granite belief that mine was a life worth living." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison "I decided early in graduate school that I needed to do something about my moods. It quickly came down to a choice between seeing a psychiatrist or buying a horse. Since almost everyone I knew was seeing a psychiatrist, and since I had an absolute belief that I should be able to handle my own problems, I naturally bought a horse." ~ Kay Redfield Jamison

@Rilles It's also survival because as Leo has explained, suicide is dying so that, in a twisted way, one's ego and beliefs can stay intact and "survive".

Ironically, suicide is usually an act motivated by survival. It is motivated by suffering. And suffering is survival.

Suffering is a teacher. Suicide is an option.. I can only speak for myself. Suicide comes from a place of fear and it's about running away. Living comes from a place of the heart/love and it is our true nature to be.

Great topic. For the people saying you'll end up right back here or your suffering will not end, this is a belief you are sharing is it not? This is something you have come to believe about death, or something you want to believe? It is something others believe and you have agreed with others? I don't know what to believe about death so I do not have a position to defend on what does or does not happen after death. If what you post is not a belief I'd love to be corrected/guided on what it is, if it's not a belief. It's one thing comparing theory and ideas, but perhaps have a think how you would approach the topic of suicide with someone who is in the advanced stages of Motor Neurone Disease, perhaps a friend or family member, who has been told by the legal system he and loved ones have no right to facilitate euthanasia in their own country, but if they have enough money they can go to another country and it's okay. Would you say to that person in the wheelchair who might be going to suffocate to death at some point soon ... "no point in topping yourself mate, you'll be right back here". Or telling him "You are God. You are the Universe". Actually I'll keep open mind hat on here..... of course there could be a situation where to think along these lines spiritually would actually comfort someone, but I wouldn't absolutely count on it! I'm not emotional writing this or angry. It's a really powerful debate all the time about suicide, whether you are coming from an actualised.org perspective or another perspective. I have personal experience, more than I would have wanted to have.

@WHO IS you can become directly conscious of Infinity/God/isness/Being/Conscioisness. That is a mystical experience in which you as form collapse into formlessness or Absolute infinity. This will be Actual and the ego/form will indeed dissolve. You will become conscious that you are this (God) and there is no where else to go. You can't escape yourself. Form and formlessness are Absolutely Identical. So after suicide of the form you will collapse into formlesness for eternity. But since eternity is itself and is infinite it will limit itself and you will explore yourself as limited form. It will just keep cycling like this forever and ever. But both are identical and One. So there is no cycle and there is simultaneously.

You May look at yourself as Infinite number of different point of awareness which are identical to source. You are one of this single points. So with suicide you can't escape existance. You will always be here and now as awareness. So much better option if you ask me is to accept everything uncoditionally and exist forever. You can't escape anywhere.

@WHO IS I have though about suicide before... i think you don't really want to suicide if you can handle your emotions. There is a difference between being sad and being deeply depressed. The last is a paralyzing state in which you see life through a completely different lens. If depression is cured, suicide don't even come to mind. There are other ways to deal with life suffering and difficulties.

Many yogis and enlightened masters talk about reincarnation. If it is true, then suicide is definitely not the end to any suffering because you will be right back here to 'suffer' more. Having said that anything will not seem true for you until you have a direct experience of it, so you wouldn't know for sure if reincarnation is real. But is it worth taking that chance? Killing the body doesn't mean the end to the real you. Killing body will limit you from experiencing the physicality of existence but that doesn't mean you cease to exist. There is nowhere to go. If anyone is in a state of suicide, it is most probably because the mental structure has become a mess. There are ways to undo it. Real Yoga and meditation are few of the tools you can use

Shiva, But do We really know that it is so? Do we really know that one gets right back to being human(in another body) if one commits suicide?

Humans all around the world say that life is mostly suffering. That being human is suffering. Then, why is suicide not considered as the option to get rid of this human condition, and thus the suffering that comes with being human inside one of these bodies? Even after one gets enlightened as people call this phenomenon, The Person is still slave to the laws of this reality. Humans need to put things into their mouths and then defecate these things after they eaten it, through a hole; and it stinks it looks disgusting yet it is coming out of your own body. In addition, a human being needs to lay unconscious almost half of its time. Most of a human being`s time is used upon the mundane and repetitive tasks, over and over again, and yet the human being has no choice in the matter, because living in chaos is not an option either; cleaning the place of living, throwing the trash, cooking the food, showering, cutting of the nails and hair, and many other mundane tasks. As time progresses the human condition does not look brighter but only darker. Humans don't get healthier/younger with age. Human beings can lose integrity/health of their body in an instant which after one lives'/suffers the consequence of being ill/handicapped for the rest of their lives. There are SO many ways for a humans life to go wrong and thus give handicap/suffering that it is not even a question that human-condition is more of a curse than a blessing. There was never a human with a happy ending and never will be, and again it is due to the nature of the human itself. Its fragility and mortality. (Billion Dollar) Question is: Why Suicide is not considered as a way to break free from this unfortunate-condition? Isn't it silly how the "spiritual" people are so much after their another hit of breathing, hmm... sounds like a survival mechanism? (SARCASM) If You thinking that You are God Please try(dont) to stop breathing, show the middle finger to this universe and show that You won't play along by its rules and see how it will punish You.

These are the ones i came up so far, feel free to add ones you found, and discuss these: Facing your Fear-> goes against all of our body's mechanisms for safety and survival, literally the opposite of survival Suicide-> self explanatory the ACT of meditation, not the habit-> during the act itself of meditating, basically were overriding our survival instincts by letting go of thoughts we were meant to cling onto, letting go of emotions, in the case of strong determination sits you resist the urges to adjust your posture, move your limbs slightly, etc. This is just referring to pure meditation, because sometimes we do get caught up in monkey mind, sometimes we to unconsciously adjust our back, etc, but were not meditating during that instant. The habit of mediation can be seen as survival since we see it as a self improvement method or as a way to enlightenment, which is to seek the moment when suffering stops. Unconditional Love-> I intellectually know that this isnt survival since to have unconditional love you stop caring what will happen but i dont fully understand it since i havent experienced it yet

1) This is horribly, horribly wrong. Music done right is one of the LARGEST influences on the human psyche. You are laughably underestimating the power of music. You don't know how many people were on the verge of suicide, but realized there was a spark of hope when listening to their favorite artist. You don't know how many people have cried to songs that mean something to them in times of need (post breakup, after a loved one dies, etc.) The feeling of connection that music brings about is unreal. It can give you hope in the darkest time, comfort in the loneliest times, and it can even get you to self reflect in ways you would never have done otherwise had you not shut up and listened. It's meditative, in a sense; when you listen to a tune it replaces your monkey mind for a few minutes and higher insights can arrive to you in that moment. I remember in high school having a devastating fight with my mom, and thinking to my self "god, she's such a bitch I hate her." Then, out of inspiration I put on my "sad music" playlist and began weeping as I realized what a devil I had been, demonizing my mom when really all she wanted was the best for me. But I was so busy thinking "ME ME ME" that I couldn't see her perspective. Sure, planting a tree might have a more obvious effect than someone playing music, but trust me. Music can move mountains in its own subtle way. Few things are as PERSONAL as music. 2) Refer to my comment above. It's a wonderful personal example of music "raising consciousness." It's on the same level as doctors, if not higher. If you can not open your mind to this, you do not understand the human psyche as well as you think you do. Now, obviously, you could still be a trashy musician and there's a chance that your music will reach nobody. In that case, obviously, planting trees for a living would be far more effective if you are going for impact. But that's not a valid reason to dismiss music. For any aspiring musician @kamill my advice is this: Ask yourself EXACTLY what impact your music has. Every day, for the rest of your life. If your music is not moving mountains, keep refining it until it does! This is not an overnight process. Nobody said it will be easy. Do your research, perfect your craft, and put yourself out there.

I think I have heard Leo say that. You have to want to know the Truth badly enough that you are willing to die/suicide? I mean, I like the idea of knowing the Truth, as long as it doesn't inconvenience me or my lifes existence.

@SageModeAustin I have read through this drama of a thread over a couple of days. First of all. Chill dude. It's just a girl. I know I know. This is like saying "just do it" and expecting someone to know what that means. However girls come and go, they literally do like leaves in the wind. Nothing you can do in retrospect other than to be a bit more conscious about what parts of yourself you show to girls in the first few months. Your experience with Brooke reminds me of my last girl. She had some issues, anti depressants and hard overreactions "like faking her suicide because her parents said something". She was unable to acknowledge the pain she was inflicting on the people around her. I started to write poems around that time to deal with all the pain this "relationship" was causing me. Here are a few lines I wrote around that time. Excerpts from a freeform-poem titled "A beautiful mind" A deep sense of love and compassion Pain too, so much pain and suffering But I will not close my heart I will not close down to the pain I will continue to try I will choose heaven every day I will leave the world a better place I will help the people that want my help I will leave the people that don't want to be helped I cannot help them I will continue to love them Even though I cannot help them I will focus on the people that I can help Someone else will do the job for the others I am not supposed to help In a way I extend my hand to everyone, friend or girlfriend. If they take it and let me pull them up, it is their choice. I think you should not actively try to change or help someone, or press too hard into the hurt parts of other people. I see it as a gift if they open up to me. But they are independent people and responsible for their own actions. We merge temporarily and of course I can infuse the girl with energy to strive for the better. But if she doesn't use it, I have done all I could. So have you. Relationships are a playground for rapid learning. It is not necessarily the most pleasant learning and it is often painful. Just hang in there. As long as you are aware of your emotions, acknowledge them and allow yourself to feel them you will move forwards. Relationships are not about thinking, they are not fabrications of the mind so there is not much point in trying to figure out what went wrong. Please don't blame yourself for a lost relationship. I lost my last one and was sad at first too. My current 3 months fwb relationship which might turn into a gf/bf thing is much deeper than my last one. So in a way you might be thankful in retrospect like I am now.