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The wakinh up from a dream analogy for enlightenment is quite common in nonduality so let me ask something about that. When I wake up from a dream, that world is gone and I cannot even interact with that illusory world and people in it anymore. However enlightened ones seem like are still interacting with their dream people, like me.

I've thought about quite a bit myself. I often hear awakened beings say things like nonduality cannot be explained, only pointed to. I acknowledge that has been true for thousands of years - yet I question whether that is an assumption. What if in 200 years all beings are in nondual states? It was not a mindset people had to work years and years to reach. People are born and raised into it. If that was "normal" would not a method of communication arise? Perhaps hyper-intuition would serve as a "language".

I mean we have to keep in mind that math is also just a language on one level. IT is a collection of symbols pointing to other things. So in that sense, language is not lagging behind quantum mechanics. It has been formulated in a language, just that it is a special kind of language. But is that a surprise? I have wondered about it quite a bit. I wonder if a mathematical language can be developed to formulate Nonduality, and THEN it CAN be communicated, just like quantum mechanics is now. Because nondual teachers have never been mathematically inclined perhaps it was never tried. But mathematics is quite powerful, it has the ability to convey extremely complex, often paradoxical ideas in a consistent manner.

Context for what started this. Quotes from the person I was conversing with: "no you wont. spare us from this demonic wisdom. eastern mysticism=divination of the self. the same old trick. same as nihilists/atheists. same as marxists/anarchists. same deception as in the garden of eden. God is not subject to nature or nature itself. and certainly is not in us. we can become Gods in Christ, but thats a totally different thing. it requires humility, the underlying spirit of the east is pride. its sad that people arent gifted with the dicretion to discern all that. i guess thats why today eastern religions and new age are so ppular in the west. people want self divination not a relationship with a personal God and a concept of sinning/obligations." "calling it demoning is exposing it for what it is. demonic, luciferian, satanic, the spirit of pride, the spirit of revolt, the spirit of misotheism. it is what it is. same underlying principle. i'd advise reading the wonderful autobiographical book of klaus kenneth "born to hate reborn to love". he got very deep in your easter "spirituality stuff". so deep that they even made him a guru, had out of body experiences, travelled through walls and whatnot. and yet he sadly discovered all these were not of divine origin because they came from a spirit of pride and "self help". read the book, it will be an eye opener." I said to explore eastern spirituality as a starting point over western spirituality because from what I know, eastern culture got a lot closer. Reading the summary of the book, there seems to not be any conflict. I'm honestly posting because I am so confused and the person isn't really being helpful to me to understanding this. I've also had numerous occasions of people calling this kind of stuff satan and demonic before. The line of thinking really boggles my mind.

To some extent, yes. But i dont think it has to do with modeling. Physics is a LOT OF analytical thinking. Over time it becomes a habit. So switching between physics and nonduality can be difficult for this reason. This is going to be a challenge. It is not at all clear what post-rational science would look like. Science means a very high bar against falsehood. As long as you can maintain that, there can be a hope. That is great! Which book are you using? They can try doing what I am doing. But it is difficult. First, scientists can be pretty closed minded themselves to even engage with non-materialist viewpoint. Almost all of them see consciousness as a by-product of the brain. So they feel materialism is the end of story pretty much. Second, even if they try it is hard to convey ideas accurately to the general public without being too technical. Physics has this problem more than any other science because "true" physics is actually just math. No words. And a very abstract math at that. As soon as you translate it into general language, you are bound to run into fantasies and falsehoods. I know what you're saying. Things, statements, don't feel intuitive until you can visualize them. But you must be able to see that our visualization is so very limited that it cannot possibly be a test of what is legitimate what is not. For example, can you visualize a 4 dimensional sphere? I sure cant. But can i calculate and hence make statements about its surface areas and its volume? I sure can. Physics is mathematics. Rest are just stories, mnemonics if you will, to aid to or to shorten the mathematical calculations.

@graded24 Great stuff. Thank you. The part about the quantum world appearing "fuzzy" is awesome. The human mind has millions of years of evolution to easily understand a macro environment. As well, humans get conditioned from birth to conceptualize a macro world: object : subject, motion, gravity etc. It's like we develop a maco lens for the world and when we try to focus on something close-up - the image is fuzzy. I remember when the internet arose - conceptually it was mindblowing. It took a while to process new ways of looking at reality. Yet, kids today need zero processing - digital phenomena just is. They have no more difficulty accepting nearly instantaneous transfer of images across the world as they have accepting the sandwich they are eating. Both simply are. I wonder if children were taught concepts like superposition - they would easily accept and grasp it - since they have no prior lens to make it "fuzzy". They are taught Europe is a continent on the other side of the world - they accept it no problem. They are taught the earth revolves around the sun - they accept it no problem. What if they are taught one thing can be many things at once? I bet they would accept it no problem. From my experience in cellular biology, assumptions and dogma is most strongly ingrained in the "old guard". I'd say young scientists are more open to new discoveries, looking at things differently and progressing into new frontiers. Yet it seems their zealous nature is prone to drifting off into what some call "pseudo science". I'm curious of the "old guard" physicists put up more resistance than the young budding physicists. As well, you mentioned the language of math is better suited to convey quantum phenomena. I often hear nonduality teachers say that "It" cannot be explained in words - that words are inherently dualistic. The words only point to what cannot be described with words. I'm curious if you think it is similar with quantum mechanics. Are words inherently unable to describe quantum phenomena? Or language simply lagging behind? If quantum phenomena became mainstream, could new English words / concepts arise to communicate it on par with the language of math? English has evolved to communicate other physical phenomena such as electricity, magnetism, gravity, Could English evolve to communicate quantum phenomena?

You can! It's like I'm saying the glass is half empty and you are saying, "But why can't we say it's half full?" Yes, you can. It amounts to exactly the same thing. It's both. Anything said about nonduality will always be a half truth because all language is dualistic. No self = The Self Just understand that The Self is NOT ego, not the biological creature you always assumed you were.

CBL <3 Psybient in general has many artists who are amazing, deep in nonduality or not.

There is a causal strange loop relationship between sense organs and perceptions. Sense organs are themselves perceptions which have a global affect on other perceptions. If you lose an eye, your perceptions will never be the same. No self and universal Self are identical. Appearances don't need to dissolve. Appearances are already nothing. Nothing is not merely an empty space. It is that, but it is also all matter, form, shape, color, etc. The very room you are sitting in is what Nothing looks like! Nonduality means that the distinction between something and nothing is relative and must ultimately collapse. Yes, the bubble dissolves in deep sleep but you currently lack the consciousness necessary to know the deep sleep state. After a deep awakening you can be conscious even during deep sleep. It will be a consciousness of formless infinity. I explained intelligence in the What Is Intelligence video. Intelligence is an aspect of consciousness. The universe has infinite intelligence, which it used to design itself.

Just a few questions I had after the video. Primarily for Leo but if u have an actually intelligent answer I’ll welcome it What’s there when no one is looking? Myself I had the intuition that infinite intelligence simulates everything so that it looks like there is an objective world. Why do we appear to live in a shared world? Again I intuited an infinite intelligence world simulation, with people who are linked karmically appearing to share a world. Why does it appear as if we have sensory organs directed at a world? By Nothing, you don’t mean what people normally think of as nothingness, do you? Is what you essentially mean by nothingness just total nonduality to the point where all appearances dissolve? Does the bubble dissolve in deep sleep, and is that blankness of deep sleep God’s perspective? Were you implying that no-self is more true than universal Self? You said the more profound way to interpret reality was pure objectivity over pure subjectivity. and this is tangential but is awareness inherently intelligent or is intelligence an appearance in awareness?

Thank you for answering questions with patience. Here comes the most practical most relevant question for me at the moment. It might be too personal for you to relate or answer but i am gonna try anyway as i am desperate. I am 30, and have been an overambitious, overachiever but also a seeker at heart all my life. Since I study science, I had a passive assumption that success career and 'understanding reality' would be one and the same for me. But of course being exposed to Nonduality two years ago, that assumption looks clearly wrong and a trick of the ego. There have been 3 components of motivations so far, 1- Egoic, proving i am better than everyone, 2- Understanding Truth, which seemed to align with my work until recently 3- Financial/social survival. As you can guess, Nonduality has clearly undermined all these three motivations. So I find myself simply not working and expending most of my time on Nondual teachings. The love for truth that fueled my professional work all these years have now totally shifted onto spirituality, leaving very little motivation and indeed time for the professional science work. This is clearly not sustainable for many reasons but even the fear of future problems get set aside as mere 'egoic thoughts'. What would you suggest for someone like me? It is not enough to know that self-inquiry can be done with worldly work, because if there is not enough motivation to work daily, one simply doesnt work. How do I work without making Nonduality an excuse to not work? Ego can appropriate nonduality at times and use it as a 'loser's excuse'. the ideal scenario would be if i can continue both in parallel and complimentary way. But that seems like a pipe dream so far. If the first thought in the morning is about Nonduality my whole day goes into it. Thanks.

@winterknight "I could say that there is a little self; I could say that there isn't. I could say that there appears to be but in reality there isn't. In the end, words just can't express truth that well. I think that's the key point. That all the concepts are themselves within the realm of illusion. All the concepts -- and thus all names -- and thus all objects." This is classic framing of nonduality in advaita isn't it? I'm not a expert on any traditions. And for a period of time this framing of truth aligned with my understanding and awakening at that point, however something shifted and if one could say more emerged/was realized however I really do get why it seems absurd from the stand point of what your saying. Concepts, illusions, objects in the perception of Self, is actually not encompassing the recognition that so called object, illusion, ego, self, perception, creation, matter, thoughts, feelings are themselves Self/God/Infinity. There is no such thing as not Self. There is no such thing as illusion in the most used and accepted definitions of the word. If Self is all, Illusion is included and it really shifts the life experience. This is not to say this shift/understanding is real awakening, or more encompassing since Self is always Self, its just less rejection of Self maybe, but even that sounds funny.

Nonduality includes duality within it. Therein lies the full circle. See image of ying-yang.

What makes it an illusion? Could it be the pursuit of the reward of contentment/happiness? Could it be looking to thought, as in the idea/concept/theory/abstraction of “nonduality” and conforming to it? Is this a process of self clinging to itself by looking for an answer/escape in “nonduality”(thought content). ?

@SoonHei If by enlightened being you mean someone who has no identification with the body and mind, who is free from suffering, who's free of the fear of death. Who has zero personal agenda. Who's in a constant state of infinity or zero. Whom you could literally call a god.?! Who's presence could literally make you fall down on your knees and cry?! I'd say not single being is here like this. If by enlightened you mean someone who understands nonduality intelectually and has had an experience of oneness. Then i'd say every smart guy with some psychedelics is enlightened

Heh, yes, a captive audience would be useful. I actually have tried a little Youtube, but even there it seems like attracting an audience is quite difficult. Spirituality -- heck, nonduality alone -- is a huge marketplace with 10,000 vendors all screaming at the top of their lungs. Maybe I've just given up too soon... I dunno. There's a few different ways of answering this question. One way is the argument that we have some very vague sense that "I slept." That's your memory of deep sleep. Another is the metaphysical way of approaching this question. The argument is that the brain cannot generate consciousness (because consciousness is not a process that "matter" alone can account for), so consciousness is an eternal substance all its own. If that is so, then consciousness is never not there. And if that's the case, then the only way to explain the deep sleep state is as the consciousness OF a "purely dark mental object." A third is the direct experience way. Upon realization, it becomes quite clear that consciousness can never not be. So therefore it must persist in deep sleep. But the truth is that these are just intellectual positions. They don't matter all that much.

Well, it's really no more or less a state of nonduality than naming objects and having thoughts. Nonduality is seeing that these are the same -- seeing for yourself, directly in your own experience.

While I'm a fan of luck and magic (atleast leaving it open as a possibility), I was not at all eluding to it. Totally put in consideration about "economic factors" (how much could this make, is there a market, how much capital will it take to get started, how long will I have to pursue this till I can expect a return and not back out before then, etc...etc...). I was pointing to two things. One, pointing to self limiting beliefs in regards to your endeavors in my last post. Like its not possible to run a 4 min mile, no one can scale a mountain without a rope, the limiting belief that one could become a healer, or a money maker through some endeavors, nonduality isn't real, god isn't real, magic isn't real, energetic distance healing isn't real. The other pointing is something more subtle to though, which maybe is the basis of your confusion. Many spiritual traditions call it seeing without ego or with buddha eyes, or seeing like a kid again. Its a open hearted, vulnerable, innocence, in your approach to something such as in your case maybe a business. It asks the same questions about how to do this venture effectively, asking the questions about what it needs to succeed, but with a softness and a acknowledgement that it doesn't have all the answers, not to get to caught up in unnecessary stress, accepts the possible failure, remembers to keep it fun...... Its present and able to adjust on the fly, willing to hear information from anyone and take it in and give a moment. It isn't brute forcing. I hope that points better to the "thingy" of my paragraph.

35+ Subfields Of Self-Help Success/Productivity/Goal Setting (stage orange, most appealing to most people, most people discover it through that) Law of attraction (visualization, affirmations techniques, confidence you need to achieve your own goals) Time Management Career and Life Purpose Creativity Business and Entrepreneurship (generic advice or specialized advised) - a lot of people enter here Marketing and Sales Leadership and Management Money Management Dating and Attraction - how to meet people and connect with new people , a lot of people enter here Relationship - how to develop long-term relationships - different from the previous one Love - how to be a more loving human being - distinct from relationships, dating and sexuality. You can use love in all areas. Family and Marriage Sexuality, Masculinity and Femininity - how to please your partner, what it means to be a man/women, how they think, how to own our masculinity, understanding the other sex thinks and feels Health/Fitness/Nutrition/Alternative Medicine - becomes more important as we age, can save your entire life, orange people take this for granted Body-Awareness and disciplines like Bio Energetics - becoming more conscious and aware of your body and the mind-body connection, how to leverage the mind-body connection to heal yourself Self-esteem and confidence - really important for most people, most people have terrible self-esteem, they have self-image issues, they lack confidence, they are shy, meek ( quiet, gentle, and easily imposed on; submissive."she brought her meek little husband along"), they don't know how to set boundaries, they turn into dormats, they get abused by others in relationships, they don't know how to assert themselves, they don't know how to be decisive, they don't like their physical appearance, they have some sort of trauma from the past because they were ridiculed or bullied in school Emotions - emotional mastery - all about the quality of your life, we are not though how to recognize our own emotions, how to deal with our emotions, we don't even know how to be aware of our own emotions and label our emotions properly - most people don't even know how to label fear,anger, jealousy, depression and anxiety. If some emotions are holding you back you have to study this sub-field. Developing your emotional intelligence will be life-transforming. Shadow work - closely related to the previous one. working with repressed aspects of your psyche and of your ego. Addiction and Recovery Trauma recovery - people who have been abused/molested. who have various kind of trauma, some sort of disease...chances are that you repressed and it's making you depressed, ruining your emotions, it might even wreck your ability to keep a career or be in a relationship. You need someone to help you with this. Mental disorders - bipolar, schizophrenia, OCD, depression, ADHD - requires specialized knowledge. Be willing to do the research to find experts who have knowledge that you need. Personality Types - MBTI, Enneagram. Even after you get enlightened you will still have a personality and you want to understand it. NLP and Hypnosis. - ways to program your own mind. Religion Spirituality - meditation and mindfullness, nonDuality, yoga, Psychadelics New Age/Paranormal/Psychic abilities (astral projection, chakras, OBEs, clairvoyance, near death experiences, auras, healing, channeling, (stage orange people stay far away from new age and spirituality because they view it just as some sort of delusion or some new form of religion, the materialist culture denies all this stuff, which is why it will require extra work from you to research into these sub-fields) Shamanism and Occult - make sure you get in order first the basics - emotions, career...before you jump into this stuff Healing - psychical, emotional, spiritual... Psychology Trans-personal Psychology (stage torquise) - incorporating spirituality into psychology Lifestyle design technical how to books Fields that I hesitate to call self-help but are still important. Politics and government Phylosophy, methaphysics, epistemology Social Psychology , cognitive psychology, antropology History and Science Biographies There is a lot of stuff, don't go around just reading about this, you want to be strategic about what you're reading. keep it to things that you can you can take action on, stuff that engages you Fields for newbies: Success/Productivity/Goal Setting Self-esteem and confidence (if you have a problem here ,it will carry into your career, relationships, into your feeling about yourself...) Emotional Mastery (because emotions run your entire life) Relationships Spirituality (possibility of completely changing your life and where you find your deepest growth), payoff is huge but the downfall is that it takes time homework: pick 3 sub-fields that you don't have a lot of experience in, and commit to purchasing 3 books for each of the sub-fields. Most people live their lives for 30 years with the same problem without realizing the answer is sitting there in a book that's how learning is, it's not obvious until it becomes obvious, it's always obvious after the fact. In the book there are more details to understand a topic in depth.

Stop reading about nonduality. Come to a place of no experience/no time. The knowledge we accumulate very easily gets projected as an experience. The best thing I ever did was “ignore” information about what is beyond the known.

All of these ideas are within absolute infinity. Within enlightenment. None of it is "IT" and all of it is "IT". We can't pull out anything from everything. One trap I see at intermediate / advanced stages is believing the spiritual concepts are true. Buddhism, nonduality, advaita, Ramana Maharshi, Shamanism - all of it. People can get so immersed and deep into one area and not recognize that they have not transcended higher. They are unaware that there is a higher level. It happens at all stages of development. I see it with myself, buddhist, advaita masters, in this thread etc. . . The higher you go, the more subtle it gets. That's why psychedelics are so powerful at the higher consciousness stages.

Use these terms in Google search, you will find related sites: spiritual enlightenment, spiritual awakening, self -realization, nonduality

@How to be wise Was thinking of you today...wondering if this is a helpful line of logic...surely you’re aware everyone has been talking about God for as long as there have been people on earth, but no one has evidence, not a single photo, etc. Most everyone has some fear of death, but of course, also, not one person has any evidence, nothing. The experience of love is pretty common, but no one has a picture of it, or evidence of where it comes from, etc. Do you see, or does it at least make sense from a logical standpoint, that death, God, Love, and The Truth are all the same thing? In the sense, nonduality (You), that it is the infinite you, literally playing, and this person/experience is you (infinite) limiting yourself to have this appearingly finite (person/earth/life story) experience? Is that helpful at all (with the fear of “death”)? @Solace Exactly ??❤️ @Jack River Same thing bruh.??

@gilded_honour Sorry I don't know the answer to your question but this reminded me of one time when I tried to talk about nonduality with my dad and he just blanked out. I mean he fell asleep in like 15sec and started snoring :D:D:D funny how for some people's mind is resisting so much that even if you utter anything close to truth it will shut off The answer to your question is probably going to be some metaphysical, spiritual, celestial dimensionless type of answer I heard that just by getting exposed to surtain things like a guru or sacred places can deside that you'll get awakened in next life. So there are a lot of things, like a million things that influence this thing. What is the most mind boggling thing to me is how some sages can reincarnate into the next life being fully confident that they'll get enlighten. Like they fix something inside to make that happen. As I said... This is some meta spiritual stuff

A lot of activity from me tonight, but I may have just hit on something. I see validity in what I'm saying and also ways it could be a misunderstanding, so bear with me. Looking forward to replies. Attachment is, as I have seen it, generally viewed as this big bad boy in experience. Desires, they should come and go, they hurt or they don't. No matter, we have an internal river of tranquility that stems from Being and Self. We should remain detached. Attachment to something else only exists if there is some separate thing to be attached to. "Ourselves" in nonduality is all. I am all. My true self is all. My ego is an instantiation of a deeper Self. All is an experience of the Self that I am living. Many things are arbitrary (my ego just went "ugh dude wtf that hurts" lol), but ultimately it is all Self that is experience. There is nothing but Self, me / you / my homework is all Self in the nondual sense of the word. This is how I understand it all currently. How, then, is there anything to be attached to? And from where does the command come to detach one's Self? If I am "attached" to another experience or ego, would I not just be attached to part of Self, and therefore drawing on Self for happiness, as is the goal? Of course, I may be attached to an experience in a way that is acutely unhealthy for this biology (e.g. fighting all the time with a friend, struggling with addiction, etc) or toxic to my ego... but basically, why do some people demonize attachement when it seems to be a part of experiencing the Self? I could see possible explanations being that the goal is to detach ego from pure, unconceptualized experience rather than what I just said, or maybe that detachment is about having absolutely no need for any other parts of Self other than your own instantiation of it (which I still wouldn't understand at that point).