Search the Community

David Metcalfe on death and Santa muerte I'm happy to be joined by researcher writer David Metcalfe. We had a dozen conversations in the past year and it wasn't uncharacteristic for those conversations to last for upwards of 4 hours. We have met only once. I'm totally aware that you are studying Santa muerte. But I wanted to talk to you now.i come from a lineage of southern funeral directors so it's part of my upbringing. Andrew Chestnut is the leading scholar in the English language on Santa muerte. David - we are collaborating on skeleton Saint website. He is working on a second one. Eliot - so you guys are the Santa muerte gringos in North America. 5.03 in 7.00 .......................... 0:00 [Music] 00:19 [Music] 00:34 [Music] 00:42 hey everybody for this podcast I'm lucky 00:45 enough to be joined by researcher writer 00:47 and multi-talented artist David Metcalfe 00:50 and a gentleman I'm lucky enough to call 00:52 a buddy we've had about a dozen 00:55 conversations in the past year and it 00:57 wasn't uncharacteristic for those 00:59 conversations to last for upwards of 01:01 four hours which my friends and family 01:04 can both testify to we've met only once 01:07 and that was for a talk at the 01:10 observatory where we hung out with 01:11 George Hanson who is a professionally 01:14 employed in parapsychology laboratories 01:17 for eight years three years at the Rhind 01:20 Research Center and five at the 01:22 psychophysical research laboratories in 01:25 Princeton New Jersey so we've been 01:28 wanting to record one of these and now 01:29 we have something to go on which is 01:31 Santa Muerte and the reason why I want 01:34 to talk about this right now is because 01:36 I was totally aware that you were 01:38 studying Santa Muerte but I didn't get 01:40 it at all until literally about seven or 01:43 eight o'clock last night which led to 01:49 hours and hours of reading and research 01:52 as well as several texts to you and then 01:55 I did a little thought experiment with 01:57 Santa Muerte which we'll talk about 01:59 later because I'm sure you did one as 02:01 well but I wanted to talk to you now 02:05 before I had time to really think about 02:07 it and draw conclusions because I 02:09 realized that's part of the magic of 02:11 Santa Muerte is how it entered 02:13 is your consciousness because we're 02:15 really going to be having a conversation 02:17 about death tonight and I come from a 02:20 lineage of southern funeral directors so 02:22 it's part of my upbringing and David had 02:26 a brilliant idea for kind of corporate 02:28 death therapy service for a CEO is 02:30 placed in a casket which was something 02:33 we talked about the second or third time 02:34 we ever talked about anything but 02:36 nevertheless the conversation tonight is 02:38 gonna be about death and specifically 02:42 Santa Muerte so David you're doing Rutt 02:45 work right now with another scholar a 02:47 very serious scholar named R Andrew 02:49 chestnut who's an author and a PhD and I 02:52 think he's a chair of Catholic studies 02:54 somewhere yeah he's a chair of Catholic 02:56 studies at Virginia Commonwealth 02:57 University so he's he's kind of a 03:03 leading scholar definitely the leading 03:05 scholar in English on Santa Muerte and 03:09 in looking at some of the the 03:11 spanish-language stuff as well I would 03:13 say that his scholarship stands up to 03:15 anything that's going on you know on the 03:17 ground in Mexico so Wow and are you guys 03:22 you guys have done an article together 03:24 on HuffPo and you're are you both 03:27 working on that website skeleton sankt 03:30 is it yeah we're we're collaborating on 03:32 the research and Andrews working on a 03:34 new book 03:36 his first book devoted to death well no 03:39 his first book but his first book on 03:40 Santa Muerte devoted to death just got 03:43 translated into Spanish and published in 03:46 Mexico City so he's now he's now working 03:51 on a second one we're kind of 03:53 collaborating on the reason that so so 03:56 you guys are like the Santa Muerte 03:59 Gringo's in North America right now yeah 04:03 it's kind of strange when I first 04:05 encountered Santa Muerte I think it was 04:07 2005 and I was actually working at a 04:11 marketing agency and was kind of given 04:13 carte blanche to just research trends 04:17 and that kind of thing to transpiring 04:18 and Santa Muerte was one of the things 04:20 that popped up because I was about when 04:23 I think the mainstream media really 04:25 caught hold of the 04:27 fact that there were people in Mexico 04:29 and coming into the United States that 04:31 you know were paying devotion to a 04:34 female Grim Reaper's which was kind of 04:38 shocking to the American media cuz it 04:40 wasn't it's interesting the way the the 04:43 devotions have kind of developed and the 04:44 traditions developed because it's been 04:46 kind of an underground tradition for 04:49 decades and it actually you know in some 04:53 ways goes back hundreds of years so when 04:57 in 2001 when Dona Keita made the first 05:00 public shrine in Tepito which is a 05:03 barrio in Mexico when she brought the 05:06 first public shrine forward the 05:07 devotional system was already you know 05:10 somewhat developed so when it reached 05:13 the US media it was kind of like the you 05:15 know this underground tradition that had 05:18 been going on in Mexico and you know 05:21 parts of LA and parts of the United 05:22 States where there was a large Latino 05:25 population that you know it was kind of 05:29 fully formed so when the the media got a 05:31 hold of it you know here's all these 05:33 people playing devotion to this Grim 05:35 Reaper figure and it kind of blew the 05:37 minds of a lot of people including 05:39 myself when I first saw the news stories 05:40 but I never thought you know a tradition 05:42 from Mexico City and some of the most 05:45 violent neighborhoods and that was going 05:48 to be something that I have an 05:49 opportunity to look into but when Andrew 05:52 did is when Andrews book got published I 05:54 jumped right on it to get an interview 05:56 with them and since I've been studying 05:58 it you know on my own we got into a good 06:01 conversation and since then we Co 06:04 presented at morbid anatomy library on a 06:08 talk of 06:09 you probably one of the first lectures 06:12 outside of Andrews on Santa Muerte and 06:16 then you know we've kind of grown into a 06:18 sort of collaborative research thing 06:21 where we you know share information on 06:23 that so it's definitely been interesting 06:26 yeah there's a bunch of places we could 06:29 go to right there but before we go there 06:31 one thing I'd like to bring up is the 06:33 only other people probably lecturing in 06:36 the United States about Santa Muerte are 06:40 law enforcement officials yeah that's 06:43 that's right that's good yeah that's a 06:45 good call 06:46 yep yeah please US Marshal Robert Del 06:52 Monte he he's been going around I think 06:56 for quite a while doing law enforcement 06:59 seminars and trying to get people aware 07:02 of Santa Muerte 07:06 you know and it's contentious too 07:08 because El Monte you know at first I saw 07:12 what I saw the information that he was 07:14 presenting and I was kind of offended by 07:16 it but with the recent Catholic 07:20 clarifications on their condemnation of 07:24 the tradition in looking and what El 07:26 Monte was saying he's unique in the fact 07:30 that he doesn't give a blanket 07:32 condemnation of all Santa Muerte 07:34 followers and actually tries as best he 07:37 can within the auspices of being a you 07:42 know fairly average you know guy and 07:45 plus being US Marshal you know he tries 07:48 to be neutral with it so it seems to me 07:52 more you know looking at it and kind of 07:54 giving him the benefit of the doubt it 07:56 seems that he's just confused over this 07:58 tradition which suddenly has become part 08:00 of his job you know to deal with what he 08:03 sees as a death cult you know coming out 08:05 of Mexico so you can imagine a u.s. 08:07 marshal in that position is probably a 08:09 bit confused and concerned you know um 08:12 compared to some of the stuff coming out 08:14 from folks like Bishop Pfeiffer who's a 08:19 bishop in Texas who just flat out says 08:23 Santa Muerte is satanic and diabolical 08:25 the stuff that El Monte stenting seems 08:28 to be a little bit more open-minded 08:31 you know within the context of what what 08:33 you can say you know being a law 08:35 enforcement official so that's that's 08:38 something I was really really curious 08:40 about because it is the situation is so 08:47 intense no matter where you look at what 08:53 anger 08:53 you look at this thing from it's 08:55 escalating it's it's really intense I 08:58 mean this situation is as hardcore as it 09:00 can get because there's this oppressive 09:02 element that's developed I mean youyou 09:04 mentioned the bishops now who are coming 09:07 out against it I saw a clip of Alex 09:10 Jones who is you know of course like 09:13 characteristically hysterical and just 09:16 saying it's diabolical folks oh it's 09:18 utterly diabolical and I think that 09:20 could like come to mind of course was 09:22 like well how many years are we away 09:24 from a representative of Santa Muerte 09:27 being on you know democracy now with Amy 09:30 Goodman and Juan Gonzales saying no no 09:32 this isn't just a narco st. folks is 09:35 this like really important part of like 09:38 contemporary religious development 09:41 that's happening right now so that was 09:43 something because there is this 09:44 oppressive like okay so before we get 09:46 into really what Santa Muerte is let's 09:49 talk about the like oppressive energies 09:53 around it because of course we have in 09:57 2009 40 or so altars to Santa Muerte was 10:02 destroyed on the Mexican border by the 10:04 Mexican government from and this is 10:06 something I heard from your colleague 10:08 how it's just the whole thing is being 10:11 ravaged you know by the bishops 10:13 government officials and that it's 40% 10:18 of the prison population but then again 10:19 from what I understand how 10 has 10 10:22 million followers so of course you're 10:24 gonna have criminal elements when you 10:26 have 10 million followers but could we 10:28 go into that can you tell me about this 10:30 this how it's being repressed from all 10:32 angles yeah I mean um yeah obviously 10:37 it's a very complicated situation when 10:40 we're talking about when we're talking 10:44 about the different groups I think one 10:45 of the things that I found is that it's 10:47 really important to step into their 10:50 shoes which funny enough is a lesson 10:53 from Santa Muerte x'd 10:54 neutrality you know because she has she 10:56 has devotees who are prison guards for 10:58 police men and so we'll take a mean 11:01 taking it from the law enforcement you 11:03 know drug cartel of narco st. Hannah 11:08 she's got devotees on both sides of the 11:11 you know kind of war and so there's the 11:16 policeman who I mean I think there's 11:18 there's one district in Mexico where the 11:21 policeman actually have patches of Santa 11:24 Muerte on their uniforms it's kind of 11:26 like a you know a protection charm unit 11:31 so it's it's not really it's not as 11:33 black and white as it may appear in the 11:35 media right and so you know every every 11:38 group that's kind of getting involved in 11:39 this on the on the end of trying to 11:39 this on the on the end of trying to 11:42 figure out what Santa Marta is and you 11:45 know either kind of sound a word of 11:48 caution or you know actively stop the 11:51 the devotions all those groups you know 11:54 you it's it's just really looked 11:56 desperately important to understand them 11:58 as well you know cuz with the police 12:01 like I said there's policemen who are 12:03 Santa Muerte devotees you know and you 12:06 see it you know one way with the police 12:07 who are trying to stop it a lot of what 12:10 they're looking at is you have a 12:12 decentralized faith tradition whose main 12:15 symbol is a grim reaper right now when 12:18 you have that situation and you also 12:21 have you know cartels who are 12:23 decapitating people skinning people 12:25 alive posting public executions on 12:29 YouTube you know I mean when you have 12:32 that kind of situation and you've got 12:34 this iconography which has no control 12:36 over it and whose basic you know element 12:39 is a symbol of death that's pretty scary 12:42 to the law enforcement and justice 12:45 officials because you know if you look 12:48 at the potentials behind that 12:50 iconography for sparing violence it's 12:52 huge you've already got situations where 12:54 there was one family who was you know 12:58 giving blood ritual by killing people in 13:00 front of their altar 13:02 you know there's rumors of something 13:05 called a blood baptism where you know 13:09 the gang member or whatever is baptized 13:11 into the the Santa Muerte devotions by 13:14 killing someone and then wearing their 13:15 skin she was you know and whether or not 13:17 that's true when you see people being 13:20 decapitated 13:21 you know by cartels and probably by 13:23 corrupt police as well when you're 13:26 living in that kind of confusion and 13:28 then suddenly you've got this like I 13:30 said decentralized faith tradition whose 13:33 main figure is a figure of death that 13:37 causes some concern and alarm oh you 13:46 know and so from that you know from that 13:49 angle I can see where where they're 13:51 coming from but at the same time with 13:54 not in that position when you're not a 13:55 law enforcement official you know and 13:57 when you're simply looking at the 13:59 tradition as it is in reality the you 14:02 know like you said the numbers of her 14:05 devotees and then are not they're not 14:08 criminals you know and if you look at 14:10 where she's active if you have a faith 14:13 tradition in largely impoverished areas 14:16 which grew out of people's relationship 14:19 to poverty their relationship to you 14:22 know corrupt 14:24 official groups whether it's the church 14:26 or the state you know or neighbors who 14:29 were violent or whatever you know when 14:33 you're when you're looking at that from 14:35 the outside you realize that okay so a 14:38 guy gets arrested with a tattoo of Santa 14:41 Muerte and he happens to be you know a 14:43 contract killer well he's got a mother 14:46 and he's got a father anyway of brothers 14:48 and sisters he's got cousins aunts 14:50 uncles and all that they may be devotees 14:52 - are you gonna claim that they're 14:54 because they're in a in a environment 14:56 that has these elements of violence to 15:00 it are you gonna say that they're all 15:01 criminals you know and so you get into 15:03 this question of where does where does 15:06 criminality spawn from which I think is 15:08 something really valid valuable with 15:10 looking at the tradition neutrally you 15:12 start to see a different a different 15:14 aspect of criminality than we're 15:15 normally presented with this black and 15:17 white like you know criminal not 15:19 criminal 15:21 you know criminal environment not 15:23 criminal environment there's you start 15:24 to develop a nuanced by through the lens 15:27 of Santa Muerte you know and then with 15:29 the church you've got a situation where 15:32 she just simply doesn't fit in 15:34 with church doctrine theory the the 15:37 theology of the Catholic Church could 15:38 never include Santa Muerte 15:41 as she is in her current tradition so 15:45 you know what was brought up in the the 15:48 Mexican the conference of Mexican 15:50 Bishops clarification is the fact that 15:53 she's not a person something that comes 15:57 as a surprise to folks in the US who are 15:59 used to you know concepts of gods 16:00 goddesses paganism you know pagan gods 16:04 the way that that kind of stuff all 16:06 plays out in the faith traditions that 16:09 most people in the US are familiar with 16:11 Santa Muerte is very much death itself 16:14 and all her devotees will say that that 16:17 you know this isn't a goddess of death 16:20 or whatever this is death 16:22 you know and so within that context she 16:25 can't be sanctified santa muerte 16:28 translates as saint death that's its 16:30 most accurate translation and so within 16:34 catholic theology only persons you know 16:38 only people can be who were 16:40 flesh-and-blood and actually living can 16:43 be sanctified so right there Santa 16:48 Muerte can't be a part of the Catholic 16:49 Church you know and so I with ending 16:53 with it so with the Catholic issue I 16:54 think what comes in then is a question 16:56 of you know the excessive focus on 16:59 Satanism and you know devil worship 17:02 claims to with again with him Catholic 17:08 theology Christ defeated death so and 17:13 the figure representing death becomes 17:16 Satan because you know in the fall 17:18 what's the what's the fall is the 17:20 introduction of death into the Garden of 17:22 Eden and the expulsion of man and woman 17:24 and so you know Satan as the tempter and 17:27 that kind of thing 17:29 Satan you know brings death into the 17:32 world so within that definition again 17:36 Santa Muerte would be technically a 17:38 satanic religion within the Catholic 17:41 theology so you know by the Catholics 17:44 reaction is you know pretty much 17:47 based on the doctrine there's not much 17:49 else that they can do other than condemn 17:51 it you know and make sure people 17:53 recognize that this is not Catholic 17:55 theology that's going on you know with 17:58 all that said the tradition itself again 18:01 when you're not Catholic and you're just 18:03 looking at it from the tradition is much 18:07 different than the picture painted by 18:09 the Catholic Church there's a couple of 18:13 places we could go right there let me 18:14 start from the beginning where you were 18:17 talking about the law enforcement 18:18 involvement with Santa Muerte and the 18:21 iconography thereof because Andrew 18:27 chestnut mentioned that when he was down 18:29 in the the mecca if you will of Santa 18:32 Muerte which is was the name of that 18:33 area um when he was in Tepito I think 18:39 yeah I think it was tippy-toe he was in 18:40 Tepito and he came across a lawyer and 18:43 he said the lawyer was saved from his 18:47 kidnappers by Santa Muerte so even even 18:50 the lawyers right right right and that 18:53 you know there's a there's a specific 18:56 candle color for justice which can be 19:00 used by lawyers and I'm not just I'm 19:03 sorry okay a color Association because 19:05 it could be a statue it can be you know 19:07 any ways that you could color in a 19:09 ritual but their color Association 19:10 specifically for justice which again can 19:14 be used by lawyers judges prosecuting 19:19 prosecuted or defendants so with her 19:21 neutrality really plays into this fact 19:24 that anyone in a profession where 19:26 they're dealing with you know they're 19:28 struggling with some kind of difficulty 19:29 or whatever depending on the level of 19:32 that difficulty and you know their 19:34 personal beliefs Santa Muerte can be 19:37 something that they go to now I know we 19:39 haven't really gone into what Santa 19:41 Muerte is yet but there's one last thing 19:44 I'd like to go into before we do and 19:47 that is how it started spawning in 19:49 Mexico because it started as an esoteric 19:53 club that it started with a small group 19:57 of elites in the sense of that they were 20:00 like celebrity 20:01 or something like that in other words 20:02 they they probably hit but there was 20:04 also a woman from what I understand that 20:06 I think it's the Romeo family down there 20:08 who's been worshipping or even a devotee 20:12 for 57 years but prior to that 20:15 that's Dona Keita yeah oh okay but prior 20:20 to that it was part of like the upper 20:22 echelon of society and yet now it's this 20:26 street folk religion that is stretches 20:30 from Chile to Canada right and the the 20:35 elite thing is a rumor there's a 20:38 tradition to journalists or a writer but 20:41 he wrote a fictionalized account which 20:44 he claimed was based on real facts Oh 20:46 out the thing I mean presumably I 20:50 suppose he's a trustworthy source but he 20:53 did write it as fiction and there is 20:55 that's not a not a proven claim that 20:58 would definitely be like a hearsay kind 20:59 of thing but looking at you know where 21:02 her tradition did come out of in the 21:06 1940s it was written about in terms of 21:08 love matric and there you know though 21:11 there was a specific no vein uh you know 21:15 it's series of prayers that went along 21:17 with this love spell that was associated 21:19 with Santa Muerte so within the context 21:23 of Mexican culture where folk magic has 21:28 had a lot more strength over the years 21:31 um I could definitely see you know 21:34 because it's focused on love magic and 21:36 that that could definitely start to 21:38 attract you know every level of society 21:42 all right 21:43 well then let's talk about now what is 21:46 Santa Muerte cuz I guess everyone 21:49 deserves to hear it now well it's it's 21:52 dad I mean that's Dona Kate is head 21:57 there's a good short documentary on 22:00 monster TV which is on YouTube where 22:04 Dona Kate is quoted as you know 22:06 essentially just it is death you know 22:10 that there's no no god it's it's not a 22:12 god 22:14 the reason that devotees can say that 22:17 Santa Muerte is second only to God is 22:19 that she is quite literally the thing 22:22 that ends everything yeah I mean it said 22:28 she is that she's death I don't know you 22:31 know she's the transition point for 22:33 everything so the thing that makes 22:34 things partiality you know if you think 22:37 about God as a whole and then what 22:40 splits that up into things that are 22:42 individual you know parts she's that 22:45 force so she is to her devotees is 22:48 literally you know second only to God 22:51 she's the thing that makes reality 22:53 possible she is death when we talk about 22:57 Santa Muerte Saint death and all these 23:01 like wonderful nicknames I think you 23:04 probably know them off the top of your 23:06 head better than I do what are some of 23:08 them Elif laka and La Nina Blanca uh the 23:17 godmother 23:17 yeah lemon tree knows that's one of my 23:19 favorite ones yeah I like that one I 23:21 think that defines her practical work 23:24 very well you know if you think in terms 23:26 of the godmother and also kind of points 23:31 to that second only to God thing because 23:33 if you think of what what the function 23:35 of a godmother or a godfather is within 23:37 Catholicism it's the guide the you know 23:41 the kid up into God to introduce them to 23:44 God you know and that holy relationship 23:46 then if you look at the way that her 23:48 devotees talk about her that's exactly 23:50 what her relationship is to them you 23:53 know they they feel that when they die 23:55 they passed through Santa Muerte to go 23:58 to God you know so she's the the last 24:01 thing that happens and in some sense you 24:03 know when they're born they go from non 24:06 existence to existence so their state in 24:08 non existence dies and then they're born 24:11 and so she becomes very complex you know 24:15 figure who's there at birth and dad and 24:19 you know it's basically the godmother to 24:22 their existence it made when I really 24:25 started getting into it i real 24:26 as a kind of guardian angel figure that 24:29 is always present with life I mean in 24:32 the room with you and that's something I 24:34 want to get into you I mean with you 24:36 later is the death anxiety and the fact 24:40 that you know not just ourselves but 24:42 many other creatures on the planet 24:45 understand death and death anxiety 24:48 elephants of course mourn and there is 24:52 these wonderful photographs that were 24:55 circulating online for a while of a tiny 24:57 bird I think a sparrow morning another 25:01 dead Sparrow and it was like really 25:03 intense very touching sort of photograph 25:05 because it was kind of an undeniable 25:07 image because of a series of images so 25:10 this is like a real thing that we're all 25:13 conscious of and here we have this I 25:16 mean let's say cult because even they 25:19 call it a cult the cult oh yeah that is 25:22 focused on this presence that is death 25:26 for life in other words like death is 25:28 unavoidable for living things it is 25:31 always in the room with you and there is 25:35 at one end of us a biological need to 25:38 keep death away so we survive but then 25:41 as higher life-forms we're of course are 25:44 well aware that the trend is for us to 25:49 eventually die to meet her to meet the 25:52 holy death of Santa Muerte that that's 25:54 that's an inevitability you know medical 25:57 science is yet to take us beyond it and 25:59 then even if it did well how do you know 26:01 if a star is not going to explode in 26:04 your neighborhood or whatever but that 26:07 kind of idea that death Santa Muerte as 26:11 a kind of guardian angel figure we got 26:14 any comments there yeah that's that what 26:16 you what you'd said you know well one of 26:19 her names lesson T similarity means most 26:22 holy death and so if you think about 26:24 that I mean that right there is at the 26:26 at the relationship level that people 26:30 come to her as is the most holy death so 26:33 it's it's that transition that's holy 26:35 you know and what's really interesting I 26:38 think in terms of 26:39 you know the her ties to criminality in 26:42 that is that as a neutral figure neutral 26:45 because she is literally death and 26:47 there's no emotion in death and there's 26:49 no choice and death and there's no 26:52 deviation in that and so she doesn't 26:56 have you know there's it's just a 26:59 complete true neutrality almost 27:01 non-existence to it because of that the 27:06 the criminal element really comes under 27:09 the judgment of Santa Muerte when they 27:11 die so if you think about you know a 27:14 contract killer they may pray to her to 27:17 you know have a successful hit or to 27:20 stay away from being caught and that but 27:22 at the end of the day when they get 27:24 caught and they're punished 27:25 they're often punished by another 27:27 devotee of Santa Muerte 27:29 a completely neutral sense of this is 27:31 justice and that you know there's a kind 27:34 of folk Catholic tradition of the saint 27:36 of the Good Thief which was at times 27:41 fostered by the Franciscan Order and the 27:44 you know the Good Thief is the one who 27:47 when Christ is crucified there's two 27:49 thieves one of whom basically says you 27:52 know well if you're if you are who you 27:53 say you are let's get off the cross you 27:56 know like let's let's stop this and you 27:59 know prove that you truly are what you 28:01 what you are and who you say you are and 28:02 then the other thief says you know well 28:05 you know basically to the the first 28:08 leave shut up we're you know we're 28:10 guilty of a crime this man is and you 28:13 know why would you why would you say 28:15 that we're guilty and we're being 28:16 punished justly he's not you know and 28:19 then says you know like basically I 28:21 believe in what you're saying and Christ 28:24 says well then you'll be with me in 28:25 paradise now theological II that's a 28:28 really really important fact that you 28:31 have a moment where there's two thieves 28:33 both of whom are guilty one of whom says 28:36 I'm guilty let me out of my punishment 28:38 the other one says I'm guilty and I'm 28:42 being punished justly but I have 28:43 compassion for you and he becomes the 28:47 first Saint he becomes the first 28:49 sanctified figure in Christ resurrection 28:51 because Christ says you know you 28:53 with me you know you'll be with me in 28:55 heaven so there's no you know this is 28:59 this is a thief listen you know this 29:01 isn't like a repentant person on their 29:03 deathbed or something like that 29:04 he doesn't report really he says I'm 29:06 guilty yeah I'm guilty and I did what I 29:08 did and I don't regret it and I'm being 29:10 punished justly but I believe who you 29:12 are and Christ says okay we'll come with 29:14 me to have you know because you've 29:16 gotten you got the you got what it is 29:18 and that's the I think that's really one 29:20 of the central ideas behind this the way 29:23 that the Santa Muerte devotees feel 29:25 about the idea of the most holy death 29:27 you know so you have gunmen you've got 29:30 drug dealers you've got rapists 29:32 you've got kidnappers you've got 29:34 smugglers 29:35 you know the whole gamut of whatever 29:36 illegal activity / fishy ating her but 29:42 in the end they all come under judgment 29:43 and it's exactly because of that death 29:46 anxiety if you listen to a lot of what 29:48 they say you know the more violent the 29:50 person isn't that the more fearful they 29:52 are of Santa Muerte and the more that 29:54 they feel that they've got to give in 29:56 order to hold back Santa Muerte is 29:58 justice so you know one of the 30:01 interesting things about Bishop 30:02 fly-through vibe mentioned earlier he's 30:04 starting a ministry to basically I don't 30:09 think he would call it exorcism but to 30:12 help guide Santa Marty studs out of the 30:17 tradition that they're stuck in this 30:18 cycle well a lot of the people that he's 30:21 going to be dealing with are probably 30:23 the people that feel guilty for 30:24 something that they've petitioned you 30:27 know and have in their Ford Field you 30:29 know he's getting this report back that 30:30 she's evil and oppressing their life 30:32 what they're really what's really 30:34 happening is they're coming under their 30:35 own guilt you know and that's part of 30:37 the function of Santa Muerte so there's 30:39 it you know at every level of the the 30:43 tradition there's these amazing 30:44 complexities that you get into that 30:47 really exposed interesting interesting 30:51 existential questions and interesting 30:53 ways to look at how people deal with 30:55 stuff you know and how people react to 30:57 their own emotions or their own thoughts 30:59 or their own feelings and urges you know 31:01 it's really fascinating that's that's 31:04 the other thing is we should we should 31:06 get into 31:07 how Santa Muerte functions on a daily 31:11 level on a practical level because the 31:13 thing that really got me like despite 31:17 all the the just a fascinating aspects 31:20 of it historically contemporaneously 31:24 seeing its effect applied to practical 31:28 magic okay and you know we can talk 31:30 later about you know what do we mean by 31:33 magic and stuff because I know you and I 31:35 have kind of fringy takes on it even for 31:38 people who practice magic right so to 31:44 see that well first you have the whole I 31:46 guess a Latin American thing which is 31:49 like magic magic oriented whether it's 31:52 you know Santeria or praying the saints 31:55 or you know various kinds of hoodoo and 31:58 what not is that it's a very active 32:00 spiritual community where you have 32:02 people playing it out saying prayers do 32:06 three heavenly father's etc it's it's a 32:09 very oh that's you mentioned three 32:11 having any fathers I just want to jump 32:12 in real quick because the three heavenly 32:15 father's thing is that's like you that's 32:19 that's when you really get into the 32:21 truth folk traditions it's like three 32:23 our fathers would be the easiest thing 32:25 that you would do I mean I've read 32:27 accounts of nine night vigils where 32:30 you're fasting and staying up until five 32:32 in the morning doing prayers the prayer 32:34 recommendations are I mean they're 32:36 intense so you know we see this kind of 32:39 like popular into things where the 32:41 people who will talk to the press or you 32:43 know go to the newspaper and they get 32:44 interviewed that's usually not the far 32:47 extent of it you know the far extent of 32:48 it is some pretty impressive feats of 32:52 you know fasting meditation focus and 32:55 prayer for Austin Sibley practical ends 32:59 you know yeah and I think one of the 33:02 reasons why that is which is I guess we 33:06 should really get into why it's so 33:08 efficacious and I mean you know why it 33:12 has such a strong effect as an icon 33:15 because I'm kind of like on the fence 33:17 with icons in fact one of the reasons 33:19 why we're having the 33:20 conversation is because I have never 33:22 been blown away by iconography in my 33:26 life until I encountered this and like 33:28 really soaked it up for a second and 33:30 realized why there would even be for the 33:34 altars by the border and why the 33:36 commercial sales of Santa Muerte 33:39 paraphernalia are so high in North 33:43 America and Central America is because 33:46 it is it when you look at it as an 33:48 object you know the reason why I think I 33:51 wasn't interested in it at first is 33:53 because it was just a lien and then it 33:56 was a version like you have the aversion 33:59 because it's a skeletal figure of course 34:01 and then when you get into the actual 34:03 presence of the thing and then it's 34:06 nature with the wish-granting 34:08 and trying to ensure one has a good 34:11 death by granting these wishes and of 34:14 course if you ask for the wrong thing 34:15 only and the onus is on you I think that 34:21 really plays into that it's the spread 34:23 of this thing is because the idea the 34:25 image the idol the representation is 34:28 extraordinarily potent yeah and very 34:33 complex too I mean the the amount of 34:35 information that can be packed into the 34:39 different names the different color 34:42 associations the different objects that 34:44 are associated with the statue 34:46 it's it's amazing because like you said 34:49 I mean it's a it's a skeletal figure and 34:51 that's basically it so it's at one time 34:52 really really simple and at the same 34:56 time able to hold this complexity that's 34:58 insane you know I mean if you look at 35:00 the some of the altars and there's like 35:03 hundreds of statues all of them 35:05 different all of them a different book 35:07 essentially on understanding that and 35:11 understanding that relationship but also 35:12 understanding life because of the 35:14 intimate Association of life and that 35:16 you know I mean so you have I mean it 35:19 yeah it's astounding I'm kind of 35:22 speechless by you know when you because 35:24 I've just been I just did that that 35:26 piece on the clarification so I've been 35:28 looking at a lot of the altar pictures 35:29 and stuff and it really is intense you 35:32 know and then the other thing that's 35:34 interest 35:34 - with the icons there's the apparitions 35:39 they have there's a there's an 35:41 apparition tradition of you know the 35:45 same kind of thing of people seeing like 35:46 Christ on the side of a building in the 35:48 water and stuff like that right or the 35:50 Virgin Mary there's Santa Muerte 35:52 apparitions and so I've got a this guy 35:57 Martin George publishes a book called 36:00 devotion devotion of Santa Muerte or 36:03 devotion to Santa Muerte magazine and 36:07 the there's a whole issue that's 36:10 dedicated to these apparitions and it 36:12 was really funny because I was up in 36:14 Brooklyn to do to present the co-host a 36:18 couple talks at the observatory and in 36:22 my friend Shannon's building right right 36:25 hit but right at the front there was 36:28 like a boot scuff mark or something like 36:29 that and no it was you know I mean you 36:32 when you have is something as simple as 36:34 a skeletal figure in a cloak a lot of 36:36 things are gonna look like that 36:37 so this boots cuff was essentially you 36:40 know a Santa Muerte apparition it looks 36:42 just like a Grim Reaper figure so you 36:45 know the like they're gonna encounter 36:47 this this stop everywhere and you're 36:49 walmart sells t-shirts right now you can 36:53 go into the t-shirt section there in 36:55 those little spin rack things they're 36:58 the same images literally the same 37:00 images that are being used in Mexico 37:02 except for in Mexico they have like a 37:04 glittery Santa Muerte font on them and 37:07 here they don't have that it's just the 37:09 the Grim Reaper figure but it's the 37:11 exact same image the ones in Mexico are 37:14 actually a little bit better print jobs 37:18 but ones you know and there's still kind 37:21 of black market images that are ripped 37:23 off of other things I mean but mark you 37:27 know Walmart is selling the scene and 37:29 you walk into Walmart Santa Muerte is 37:31 there she just doesn't have a label on 37:33 her you know and but she's sitting there 37:35 you know in the t-shirt rack and some 37:37 kids picking that up you know and going 37:39 home and going to church the next day or 37:41 whatever at the same time as Santa 37:44 Muerte in this closet you know it's just 37:45 not named yet but then if he encounters 37:48 we're say anywhere on the news or 37:50 whatever and that image pops up you know 37:53 there's you know they've that person has 37:55 that shirt or they walk into Walmart and 37:57 they realize oh you know this isn't it's 38:00 not label to Santa Muerte but she's 38:01 sitting right here you know which to me 38:03 I mean that's amazing the way and then 38:07 on the other end of it going down into 38:09 you know Mexico City in that the ability 38:13 to reprogram you know and to take these 38:16 images which you know taking like a like 38:19 a Halloween album cover and turning it 38:22 into a devotional image you know like 38:24 hair model and stuff like that from the 38:26 80s with these grim reaper figures 38:28 ripping that that picture off and then 38:31 you know writing Santa Muerte on it or 38:33 putting you know printing Santa Muerte 38:35 kind of local thing on it it suddenly 38:38 becomes a devotional object and no less 38:40 legitimate than you know any other 38:43 devotional object in the tradition and 38:45 again you know that to me that's amazing 38:47 it's you turning everyday objects just 38:51 you know regular images that you know 38:53 people think are Kichi or cliche or 38:55 whatever and suddenly it becomes this 38:57 incredibly potent thing which is scaring 38:59 law enforcement officers making the 39:01 Catholic Church you know have to really 39:03 clarify its doctrine and you know 39:06 causing people to be excited over a 39:08 satanic scare you know but it's from 39:11 this idea of a relationship with death 39:15 that can be focused through Walmart 39:18 t-shirts that it's just amazing that was 39:21 really funny I have to I have to like 39:23 apologize to everyone in advance because 39:25 of the recording I have to hold back my 39:27 laughter because it might screw up the 39:30 feeds between David and Ikes I think 39:31 when we talk at the same time the fee 39:35 gets a little screw up so I have to hold 39:36 back my laughter cuz usually I just 39:37 laugh in his face when he does the kind 39:40 of these always talking about like 39:44 they're selling mind science at Walmart 39:46 dude you want to get like a real tangent 39:47 like a real quick side tangent because 39:49 Walmart is the Nexus yeah there's like a 39:52 cult nonsense let's hear it real quick 39:54 well oh yeah you see now you're getting 39:56 you got me into it you didn't but the 39:59 walmart sells exorcism books 40:01 they sell books on exorcism that I mean 40:04 it's the on every street corner in 40:07 America there you know the most a just 40:11 generic distribution hub of you know 40:15 regular everyday daily garbage and they 40:20 sell books on exorcism that are 40:22 effective that if you go back and you 40:24 look at the Exorcist traditions or if 40:26 you look at any of the stuff being 40:27 published you know as a grimoire or 40:29 whatever they're essentially using the 40:32 same like psycho spiritual social 40:35 technology in these books that are 40:39 available at Walmart it's it's amazing 40:41 you know in the another comment you made 40:45 was the the mind science that there's a 40:47 Christian mind science pop daytime TV 40:51 publications there as well right yeah 40:53 well that's the yeah I mean a lot of the 40:55 stuff that they're that they're pushing 40:58 as Christianity in this it's part of the 41:01 New Apostolic Reformation movement but 41:03 it's essentially mind science and it's 41:05 positive thinking the prosperity gospel 41:07 stuff that's all Napoleon Hill you know 41:09 they've just slapped Jesus in it and you 41:12 know kind of thrown some biblical quotes 41:15 on that which actually in a way again it 41:17 turns it back to the kind of magic you 41:18 know it's mind science plus biblical 41:21 quotes and you're essentially getting 41:23 back into 19th century magic you know so 41:27 go to your local Walmart as long as you 41:33 know as long as you can kind of get past 41:34 the veil of offensive prosperity gospel 41:39 Christianity you can access some pretty 41:42 potent you know spiritual technology 41:44 there great thank you Mark home of 41:51 American sorcerers beautiful so let's 41:58 let's get back into it was this the so 42:02 back to Santa Muerte here so the the two 42:05 things well two two of the things I 42:06 really wanted to talk about right here 42:08 was the practical application because 42:10 she is a she is not she's not just white 42:13 she's not just black she's not just 42:15 she's a full spectrum agent of Jewish as 42:17 a rainbow which from what I understand 42:20 came in from Cuba and the the so I 42:26 wanted to talk about as a as a practical 42:28 magical system and then on the other 42:32 side I wanted to talk about I guess you 42:36 know and we'll save it for later like 42:37 what we mean by magic at the at the end 42:40 of this because I don't really want to 42:41 go on that tangent now I really want to 42:42 talk about Santa Muerte now and the 42:45 other end of the figure because what 42:48 happened note her nature pardon me not 42:51 the figure but her nature because this 42:54 this is the the shift that I was 42:56 surprised by an attracted to because at 42:58 first I was like and David's just in the 43:00 skeletons made just in this Grim Reaper 43:02 stuff but then then when I looked at it 43:05 where she's this loving watchful 43:09 maternal wish-granting will grant you 43:12 anything you ask for almost like a 43:14 parent you know who will save you from 43:16 kidnappers so she's a she's a goodly 43:20 loving big pseudo female death and how 43:29 how that how I mean Mike I mean that's 43:33 one of the reasons why I'm having a call 43:34 because when I imagined that present so 43:36 I was like okay let's imagine this as a 43:38 presence there was truly like a release 43:42 of tension in my chest that is 43:45 characteristic of my person and that 43:48 I've never had with any other imaginary 43:51 device that I've employed you know like 43:53 I mean everyone like involved in magic 43:55 likes to play with you know Tulpas and 43:57 Vives and sigils and you know basically 44:00 also imaginary devices and visualization 44:02 tools and mantras and things like that 44:04 I've never had the kind of alleviation 44:07 that I got from this icon I think it 44:10 tied very close to the existential 44:12 problem of death and generally fearing 44:16 death and also the male interpretation 44:18 of death which we'll get into a little 44:19 later and the differences between you 44:21 know the standard Grim Reaper and Santa 44:25 Muerte but before we go there let's talk 44:27 about it let's talk about her as 44:28 this as this magical operating system 44:32 yes she's uh is known in in Mexico is 44:39 basically the most efficacious miracle 44:42 worker 44:42 a lot of the conversion stories from 44:45 Catholicism to to you know the Santa 44:50 Muerte devotions are based on the fact 44:53 that people will say they petitioned the 44:55 Virgin of Guadalupe and didn't you know 44:58 really get what they wanted they didn't 45:00 st. Jude didn't really get what they 45:02 wanted and you know they pursued all the 45:06 legitimate Saints and finally they 45:10 turned to Santa Muerte and that was when 45:13 their prayer was granted so she's got 45:16 this reputation for being you know 45:18 essentially like you said just a master 45:22 of patroness of you know people's needs 45:26 across the board whatever it is whatever 45:29 you want whatever you need if you're 45:32 willing to come to her and that's 45:33 actually there's something there's 45:37 similar traditions in gauchito gil who's 45:41 a focusing in south america but his 45:51 sanctification on the folk level came 45:54 from him being kind of a Robin Hood 45:55 figure who the policeman who murdered 45:58 him or who killed him after capturing 46:00 him he before he was killed he said he 46:05 told the policeman your son is sick your 46:08 kid sick when you get back to the 46:10 village if you pray to me I will heal so 46:14 the policeman proceeds to kill gauchito 46:18 gil by slitting his throat while he's 46:21 hanging upside down leaves him out you 46:23 know like a pig basically kills him like 46:25 a pig goes home not doesn't really think 46:28 about it when he gets home his kids sick 46:30 and so he immediately prays to gauchito 46:33 gil and his kid gets better and is 46:37 healed and then he goes and spreads that 46:39 you know that message 46:41 throughout the surrounding area that 46:44 it's miracle was granted but in that in 46:46 that situation you know here's a person 46:48 who killed somebody else and the person 46:51 that they killed is now granting their 46:53 their child life you know so this really 46:58 interesting you know kind of if you pray 47:01 to me I will give you what you need you 47:04 know from these folk Saints it's very 47:06 common but what's not common is just the 47:10 level and broad spectrum of things that 47:14 she covers you know yes she seems to be 47:17 like the I mean I couldn't I couldn't 47:19 think of an analogy of course using 47:21 these like tech analogy so I was like 47:24 you know she's like the programming 47:25 language she's like the you know English 47:29 around the world or I guess you know 47:30 there's also Chinese in Spanish but 47:32 she's like a standard operating language 47:35 that just does what you say it's like a 47:38 switch Swiss Army knife because even 47:41 from the research I was doing last night 47:43 the thing that caught my attention or 47:46 one of the things that caught my 47:47 attention was how everyone who was being 47:51 interviewed about Santa Muerte who 47:54 considered themselves a devotee and 47:57 interestingly enough some of them 47:59 retained some of their Catholicism as 48:01 well but those who swore by it 48:04 swear by her as a miracle worker as one 48:08 who gets things done and they were all 48:10 giving testimony to how this happened 48:14 that happened one woman said she was 48:17 pulled back from almost getting stabbed 48:19 in the stomach another guy I heard said 48:23 that his son was shot in the head with a 48:25 9-millimeter and then was drinking with 48:27 them three days later that she death 48:31 that death actually grants favor that 48:36 has results and you know in my own kind 48:43 of case I don't know how I can treat 48:44 this but what I can say coming at it as 48:48 a novice is that my metaphor would be is 48:51 like well it's a very effective metaphor 48:54 system 48:54 very powerful very potent because it's 48:56 part of a process that a conscious 48:58 entity goes through is eventually they 49:00 die we fear death so you bring in this 49:02 loving death thing at which is friendly 49:05 and inevitable but that you can use that 49:08 as a structure for focused intent and to 49:13 have kind of results and then another 49:15 interpretation is gonna be like well no 49:17 it's an actual entity that grants favors 49:19 fine 49:19 granted okay I just want to draw that 49:21 delineation right there just because 49:23 just to let people know that there's 49:25 there's another way to interpret it not 49:27 that I necessarily do that way but just 49:29 from my background as people know in the 49:32 Campbell field and the my big toe field 49:34 and whatnot is that we're talking about 49:35 you know a reality as being a simulation 49:38 that is subject to one's intent and that 49:41 one uses symbolic metaphoric vehicles 49:44 for intent etc etc etc I don't want to 49:47 go deep into that tear but I just wanted 49:49 to mention that so well that that in a 49:51 way actually it's interesting because if 49:53 you look at the books that are the the 49:57 devotional material you know the printed 49:59 material almost every single one that I 50:03 can think of starts out with by your 50:06 faith you will be given what you deserve 50:10 by your faith so essentially saying 50:14 exactly what you're saying and then 50:17 that's bolstered by the fact that you 50:19 have someone like Dona kita essentially 50:20 saying no this is death la heater 50:23 ordered we're not talking about a 50:25 goddess this is death and then when you 50:27 consider what that is 50:29 you know she's there the a lot of the 50:32 devotees are very insistent on the fact 50:34 that this is not a being or an entity 50:37 that they're talking about they're 50:40 literally talking about that you know 50:43 and and that you know another way that 50:46 she's kind of she opens up these 50:48 philosophical questions because then 50:49 you've got to ask yourself well what 50:52 what are they dealing with you know and 50:54 then you look at the the the 50:57 iconographic in that and again it's what iconographic in that and again it's what 51:00 is iconographic me because here's this 51:03 iconography of you know female so gender 51:06 specific 51:08 a reaper you know not a different type 51:12 of skeleton very much a grim reaper very 51:15 specific iconography yet dealing with 51:19 something that the devotees say is not 51:23 an entity or being necessarily it 51:25 literally is death 51:26 you know yet at the same time this 51:30 nonentity non-being 51:31 has efficacy as an agent in their lives 51:35 up to the point of them seeing 51:37 apparitions and I had mentioned a bhoot 51:39 scuff that I saw but you know other 51:41 people talking about apparitions 51:43 literally see a physical Grim Reaper 51:46 figure you know come out whether or not 51:48 there is hallucinating or whatever that 51:50 question is you know that's beside the 51:52 point here it's just it's simply that 51:54 here you have people that on one end of 51:56 the scale will admit that they're 51:58 talking about death itself and yet on 52:00 the other are literally having these 52:02 experiences with what you know would 52:06 probably be considered some sort of 52:08 entity and treating it like an entity or 52:10 being or a person in some way yet you 52:13 know just really focusing on the fact 52:15 that it's still death it's not really an 52:17 an entity or being isn't so going on 52:20 what of that idea light there let's let 52:23 me ask you what do you think of this 52:24 idea because I've I've noticed that the 52:27 technology being suggested is that it's 52:30 a very kind of standard folk technology 52:32 where you give something and you get 52:33 something right so what do you think 52:38 like of this idea of giving a devotion 52:43 to one's death and then how that would 52:46 end up kind of reprogramming you as an 52:49 individual in other words like you get 52:51 you give yourself a or you give a 52:53 devotion to an inevitability one's 52:55 terminus one's end one's medical debt 52:57 and then from that there's also this 53:00 intent vector your wish and that comes 53:03 back to you and goes out into the world 53:05 so it's you balancing your existence in 53:08 a way with this inevitability and then 53:10 going into like well what do I want what 53:13 do I want to what do I want to do what 53:15 do I want to be in that kind of thing 53:16 and building your kind of you know 53:19 consciousness platform from those 53:21 points in in history if you will yeah I 53:25 did I've never thought about it like 53:26 that that's a that's really an 53:28 interesting yeah seeing it temporarily 53:31 like that the way I mean the way I would 53:33 I don't know that's an interesting 53:35 that's an interesting perspective on the 53:40 relationship there you know the way I 53:44 was kind of looking at it was through 53:46 you know if you look at every major 53:49 tradition they always have a momentum 53:51 ory element to it and she's kind of just 53:56 the ultimate memento mori' where you're 53:59 you're only dealing with that there's 54:03 nothing else but that and so you know in 54:07 terms of her granting it yeah it's 54:10 interesting I I sometimes get caught up 54:12 in the fact that I'm looking at it from 54:15 you know a background in like studying 54:18 contemplative traditions so I tend to 54:21 think of it that way 54:22 and you know I personally am not very 54:25 practically oriented in terms of the 54:28 traditions and stuff so it I'm just 54:33 thinking through what you were saying I 54:34 mean that that's a really interesting 54:35 way of dealing with it like that you 54:37 even looking at the parapsychology stuff 54:39 in that I rarely think I've fashioned 54:41 that's more of just experiential or or 54:46 that kind of thing so yeah it's it's 54:49 interesting to think about the position 54:50 and what exactly that means in terms of 54:53 the relationship with the with the 54:55 iconographic yeah in some ways you can 54:58 look at it like you know you've got the 54:59 patron tradition in Bonn and Tibetan 55:03 Buddhism where you have the idea of you 55:06 know kind of sacrificing yourself to the 55:10 hungry ghosts and the demons you know 55:13 that that devour you you know and then 55:15 looking at that that kind of concept 55:18 through you know sacrifices and 55:21 religious ritual and that and 55:23 propitiating gods and that kind of thing 55:25 and paying kind of paying off the the 55:27 inevitable end you know but she's she's 55:31 interesting in the fact that it seems 55:32 that the petitions and that 55:34 they they do have you know I mean 55:37 there's specific liquor types you know 55:40 tobacco smoking weed stuff like that 55:44 like that all is associated with the 55:47 with the things that she's given so she 55:52 does have kind of a personality through 55:54 those through the gifts that are given 55:55 her you know right and she's even called 55:58 what is it lookup wrong yeah look 56:01 cabrona 56:02 the the she-goat or the bitch is what 56:04 you know that's that yeah that's that 56:07 that's an amazing personal level that it 56:09 comes to I mean we like with with the 56:11 cigarette offerings and the the 56:13 marijuana offerings it's you don't just 56:16 like leave it to her you know it's 56:19 expected that you're smoking a cigarette 56:21 as well with her you know I mean it's 56:23 like hanging out with your godmother 56:25 smoking a cigarette and talking about 56:28 whatever you need yeah this amazingly 56:30 personal relationship with this despite 56:33 you know some of the stories that come 56:34 out about you know being afraid and and 56:36 being very respectful in that there's 56:39 also this level I mean the the bitch 56:41 stuff the the cabrona thing that comes 56:42 out of an interview where a lady on the 56:45 street a devotee was being interviewed 56:47 and she was like she's a bitch like us 56:48 you know that's why we like so you know 56:52 there's this incredible just acceptance 56:54 and very you know very homey you know 56:57 just very domestic feeling with it that 57:00 you wouldn't expect with grim reaper 57:04 figure you know or really any kind of 57:07 devotion it's it's an amazing devotional 57:10 tradition in that it is so real it's so 57:14 just you know daily life everyday stuff 57:17 you know and some of the here's I kind 57:20 of I'm gonna track back some the 57:22 confusion over the offerings sure one of 57:25 the one of the things that the people in 57:28 the US have a hard time recognizing 57:30 mainstream us and that is that in 57:35 anything like hoodoo Santeria voodoo 57:39 traditions any of that when when there's 57:42 a ritual that any of the afro-latin 57:45 traditions when there's a ritual free 57:47 either money 57:48 or prosperity or health or anything like 57:53 that in terms of the African traditions 57:56 that these things come out of the 57:58 African influences on them those states 58:01 of being are considered in illness so 58:04 poverty is considered a spiritual 58:06 illness so you go to a spiritual worker 58:09 who is going to cure you of that 58:13 spiritual illness you know so it's not 58:16 like the way we think of it 58:18 you know in terms of capitalism and I 58:20 have money because I worked hard or 58:21 whatever the way it is in these systems 58:25 at least the where the you know where 58:27 these ideas come out of is that that's 58:29 literally a spiritual illness when 58:32 you're when you're you know feeling 58:34 depressed and that leads to poverty or 58:36 what you know I mean they're they track 58:37 it back to a kind of psychological 58:39 spiritual level so you know propitiating 58:43 something like Santa Muerte for money or 58:46 health or freedom or any of that does at 58:50 the base where this you know these ideas 58:53 kind of come out of and come from have 58:55 to do with the spiritual illness you 58:57 know so we think of practical magic in 58:59 terms of you mentioned it earlier mind 59:01 science or something like that where you 59:04 know it's you you know very self 59:08 oriented and what do you want and and 59:10 that kind of thing well in these 59:12 traditions it's not really like that you 59:14 know at its best I mean obviously 59:15 there's a spectrum and people do one 59:19 thing or feel it's something else but at 59:21 the very you know core of where that 59:23 stuff comes from it does come from the 59:25 spiritual idea of you know poverty and 59:29 that kind of stuff you know we see right 59:33 here I think we should take five take 59:39 five and come back excellent cool all 59:42 right 59:46 [Music] 60:21 [Music] 60:28 [Music] 60:42 [Music] 61:11 all right well that's my best art Bell 61:15 impression right there ladies and 61:17 gentlemen all right I can't do anything 61:19 else did a good Alex Jones earlier 61:24 pretty Dada 61:26 oh well I've been doing him for years 61:28 globalists mine yes he's a favorite well 61:32 we're back we're back we're back and we 61:34 just took a step outside and it's a 61:36 beautiful fall day and you know the 61:39 leave the corpses of leaves are 61:41 everywhere and it's just gorgeous I mean 61:43 what can you say it's uh it's where I 61:46 wanted to open up next which is talking 61:48 about how the immediate aversion and how 61:51 in the West we have this kind of totally 61:54 different take on death than what's 61:57 going on 61:58 you know south of the border and you 61:59 know to a degree now in the US and 62:01 Canada but how we have a totally 62:04 different view of this thing it's 62:06 horrifying we don't want to talk about 62:08 it I don't want to think about it and 62:09 yet you know our Spanish brothers and 62:13 sisters are realizing that it's a source 62:15 of real power and not only just of power 62:19 but this is obvious and the spread the 62:21 commercial spread which we could talk 62:23 about a little bit later I'd love to 62:25 talk about that how it as a commercial 62:27 force Santa Muerte is just huge so let's 62:33 begin there with because that was what 62:35 drew me to it really was the release of 62:38 tension by experienced after thinking 62:41 about this this figure yeah it's a very 62:46 different way of thinking about that the 62:49 much more you know like you said earlier 62:52 you know death is present in every 62:54 moment and really focusing on that you 62:57 know and I think one of the interesting 62:58 things too is that you know before the 63:02 break I had mentioned African 63:05 spirituality and the idea of you know 63:08 poverty being a spiritual sickness and 63:10 that kind of thing and that may seem 63:11 weird in the context of Mexico but if 63:15 you look at the history of Latin America 63:17 we think of the US as a melting pot but 63:20 as soon as World War 63:22 happened one of the things that happened 63:24 in the United States to actually make it 63:26 what we know today as the United States 63:28 was they realized that all these 63:30 different ethnic groups weren't gonna 63:32 band together to fight foreign war sir 63:36 oh you had this massive movement that 63:39 you know you think of the Library of 63:40 Congress's folk music collection and all 63:42 that stuff well a lot of that was based 63:44 on building the mythology of the United 63:47 States as a centralized you know unit a 63:51 nation and trying to get all these 63:54 different ethnic groups to feel that 63:57 they were part of that well in Latin 63:59 America no less diverse and then you 64:02 know the different you know whether it 64:04 was people from Spain Portugal Britain 64:06 Africa India even you know in the 64:11 Caribbean and that from the British 64:13 trade and and that kind of thing 64:15 equally an equal melting pot that really 64:19 never had the nationalist pushes in the 64:22 same kind of way that the United States 64:24 had which was very coordinated effort to 64:28 bring all these people groups together 64:30 in Latin America you know whether it's 64:34 Mexico Central America South America you 64:38 know into the Caribbean in Cuba it's 64:42 much more diverse than the diversity has 64:45 stayed potent you know and so all 64:48 traditional societies have a very close 64:52 relationship with that you know people 64:54 used to bury in their own yards you know 64:57 and so your ancestors the ideas the idea 65:00 of family members who passed on was a 65:02 much more prevalent thing in people's 65:04 lives and in Mexico you know through 65:07 like Dia de los Muertos and stuff like 65:09 that these all these ideas are still 65:12 alive this idea of you know ancestry and 65:15 you know familial ties that don't break 65:18 once somebody dies you know and our 65:22 culture doesn't have any of that you 65:24 know I mean our we've got a funeral 65:25 industry you know I mean everything is 65:28 commercialized and even death so we have 65:33 a very displaced view of that kind of 65:35 thing 65:35 you know which the the death culture you 65:40 know in Mexico and in South America and 65:44 the Caribbean in that is is much 65:46 different and with the you know 65:48 increased globalization and the internet 65:50 and all that stuff 65:52 these ideas are starting to spread you 65:54 know into the United States again and 65:57 kind of wake people up to just how 65:59 distant we are from this just inevitable 66:01 fact of life you know I mean you look at 66:03 something like the the transhumanist 66:05 movement you know there's even an 66:08 immortality movement and that kind of 66:10 thing 66:11 Ray Kurzweil consults with the 66:14 government in the Department of Defense 66:15 and yet he is afraid of death and wants 66:19 to be immortal in a machine you know and 66:21 so this this really intense death 66:24 anxiety is incredibly prevalent in you 66:30 know the United States at a very basic 66:32 level yeah and when you know and when we 66:35 talk about death this is something I've 66:37 said for a couple of years now is that 66:39 when we talk about death dying dydz dead 66:41 is that we always really have to throw 66:43 it up in quotation marks because we 66:45 don't really know what we're talking 66:47 about when we talk about this experience 66:51 the other thing that comes to mind is an 66:55 article I read a couple of years ago and 66:57 I think it may have been in Brazil but 66:59 it was in South America and it was about 67:01 an indigenous tribe who threatened mass 67:04 suicide when deforestation was coming in 67:08 and the reason why they threatened mass 67:11 suicide is because that they were going 67:13 to bulldoze over their ancestors graves 67:18 and that they said that they would 67:21 rather die they would rather commit mass 67:23 suicide right here right there then 67:26 allow for that to happen it made me 67:28 think of you know almost like and this 67:31 may be perverse in a way but a kind of 67:34 almost you know Wi-Fi element to it that 67:37 where your ancestors are at least for 67:41 this culture is where they had a lot of 67:42 potent spiritual output right well I 67:47 mean it's so it's so closely 67:49 tied to the everyday existence that to 67:51 lose that connection would literally to 67:54 be to lose the health of your society 67:56 you know because the in societies and 68:00 cultures that have that concept of 68:02 ancestor you know ancestry and the 68:06 presence of ancestors and the presence 68:10 of the dead to lose that connection with 68:14 death is and in those who have passed on 68:16 you know into whatever other state or 68:18 whatever it is to to lose that 68:20 connection literally is to lose the 68:22 thing that allows you to live you know 68:25 if it would be I don't it'd be as if 68:28 your electricity was cut off you know 68:31 things of it because they see the dead 68:32 is so active in life and so prevalent in 68:36 life and in every aspect of life you 68:39 know that if that's taken away you 68:43 literally cut off the basis of everyday 68:45 life you know and that again comes with 68:47 the the idea of practical magic or you 68:51 know in or petitionary prayer even that 68:56 a lot of what's going on in those 68:58 situations is relationships with 69:00 ancestral spirits so you know the 69:04 prosperity of the family the food that 69:07 the family eats which is shared a lot of 69:09 times with the dead or with spirits and 69:11 that to take that away you know I mean 69:15 you basically just torn the heart out of 69:18 the culture you know and you can't help 69:21 but think about where you know our digi 69:24 modern state is where we're almost 69:26 totally outside of genetic history and 69:30 thrust into the information age soon to 69:33 be the virtual age and how that has 69:37 equality to divorce one from just the 69:40 history of bone and blood right yeah and 69:45 it's interesting too because you know we 69:47 are the illusion is that we're outside 69:51 of that you know and I'm not even 69:55 talking about the dud you know having 69:57 any kind of necessarily like material 69:59 effect in the world but I'm just the the 70:01 concepts in the way that 70:03 helps culture grow and exist you know 70:05 we're told that we are and we're kind of 70:07 pacified with a bunch of objects and 70:09 media and drugs and stimulation in that 70:13 which you know can distract us from that 70:15 but when you look at the actual health 70:17 of the culture itself I mean the u.s. 70:19 scores highest on all sorts of horrible 70:21 indicators that our society is 70:22 completely corrupt and broken you know 70:25 spent on a very deep a motive 70:27 you know psycho spiritual level our 70:29 society is collapsing you know and the 70:33 things that have moved in to replace 70:34 these intimate relationships with nature 70:37 and with you know our ancestral past and 70:41 with you know animal life and all that 70:45 stuff the things that have moved into a 70:47 place that have not been adequate for 70:48 play you can't replace those things you 70:50 know and so until we are downloaded into 70:52 a computer it's this is not really a 70:57 tent like a workable solution for you 71:01 know human existence so you know we 71:04 again we can be pacified to kind of 71:06 believe that we don't need those things 71:07 that we've moved beyond them but we when 71:08 you look at the levels of you know 71:10 mental illness suicide rate I mean all 71:13 sorts of indicators that show like you 71:16 know we're not doing good depression 71:18 alcoholism yeah oh yeah yeah I mean 71:21 addiction in the the the whole you know 71:24 nine yards that's another interesting 71:25 thing addiction actually in terms of 71:28 Santa Muerte and the drug culture one of 71:31 the things that she's known for so there 71:34 here's this narco st. right and 71:36 according to the US media and mainstream 71:38 media in Mexico here's a narco Saint who 71:41 you know is the the goddess of you know 71:45 drug dealers and all that stuff one of 71:48 the things one of the miracles that 71:50 she's best known for is getting people 71:51 out of addiction and carrying them of 71:54 alcoholism or heroin addiction or you 71:57 know whatever cracks whatever you want 71:59 so um you know that it's really 72:03 interesting to see how that you know I 72:07 get it again these kind of 72:08 contradictions that play out but also 72:09 the fact that this figure of death in 72:12 the you know in that cultural milieu 72:15 that's 72:16 comfortable with that even if they're 72:17 not comfortable to Santa Muerte becomes 72:19 a healing figure becomes a figure of 72:21 health and you know helping people's you 72:26 know mental state and emotional state in 72:28 curing them of addictions let's talk 72:31 about the spread of Santa Muerte 72:35 paraphernalia because it is I mean it's 72:38 it says ubiquitous as death itself and 72:41 just growing and growing and growing and 72:43 growing your colleague mentioned that in 72:45 his hometown of Richmond Virginia where 72:48 it has only a six percent Latino 72:52 population he found votive candles there 72:55 to Santa Muerte and that they sold very 72:58 very well yeah it's it was interesting 73:02 once you start to look for it you kind 73:04 of go out you start to notice that it is 73:07 more prevalent than you think I know 73:10 down here in Georgia 73:11 my niece found Santa Muerte candles at a 73:14 Kroger which is basically the de-facto 73:18 grocery store you know and they had 73:21 where at whatever neighborhood it was in 73:23 I think it was Stockbridge which is you 73:27 know sub metro Atlanta 73:29 they had Santa Muerte candles and I know 73:34 you know I know of a Botanica near where 73:39 I'm at I'm loved 40 minutes outside of 73:42 Atlanta there's a like a half hour drive 73:46 I can go to a Botanica that carries its 73:50 you know extensively carry Santa Maura 73:52 same stuff books statues some of the 73:56 more interesting devotional items like 73:57 the there's hands that have the 74:00 offerings already kind of sealed in then 74:04 with the figure of Santa Muerte in the 74:06 hand you know and you know stuff like 74:09 that and they sell that at this Botanica 74:11 which is quite close by me and then in 74:15 that same neighborhood there's a Mexican 74:18 grocery that has Santa Muerte candles I 74:23 don't know you know if you the further 74:25 out you go obviously 74:26 [Music] 74:28 into more rural areas I don't know if 74:30 you'd be able to find it unless there 74:31 was a heavy you know Latino population 74:34 but it is in pretty much every state you 74:37 know up in Chicago 74:39 the my friend was talking about how to 74:43 learn Spanish she would have to be 74:44 immersed and have to go down for an 74:46 immersion in Mexico and I just been to a 74:49 store right by his house which was a 74:52 Botanica that dealt with Santa Muerte in 74:54 Santeria and that was it you know so I 74:57 was kind of laughing at him because I 74:58 was like you know immersion just step 75:00 outside of your door you know so it's 75:04 yeah it's very prevalent and it's 75:06 spreading and with the botanicals I do 75:07 sell its goods a lot of them are saying 75:10 that you know well the Botanica that I 75:12 went to in Villa Park the proprietor was 75:16 you know she practiced Santeria and she 75:19 said she really didn't have any belief 75:20 in Santa Muerte or even know really what 75:22 it was or really care about it at all 75:24 but a lot of people were coming in and 75:26 asking for it and so you know a good 75:29 portion of her store's goods despite the 75:31 fact that she really had nothing to do 75:33 with the tradition with Santa Muerte 75:34 face because of requests for it you know 75:37 so it's you know it's definitely if you 75:44 live near a major city you will be able 75:46 to find Santa Muerte fairly easily you 75:48 know there was an article you did 75:51 recently on of course you've been 75:56 covering the whole Catholic controversy 75:59 especially interesting because there 76:01 they say that you can't sanctify death 76:04 just as much as you can't sanctify 76:07 obedience right you know that was those 76:11 kind of interesting to me of course to 76:13 bring that up because they're not flesh 76:15 and blood but one but there is an 76:18 interesting theology developing within 76:20 Santa Muerte where death is totally 76:26 illegitimate and petition Abul for sand 76:28 and one of the gentlemen who i think you 76:31 translated an article about is a card 76:35 reader i think i had his name up on here 76:38 but i don't have it anymore should i 76:39 pull it up yeah Hipolito garza 76:42 was he's a there was this great blog 76:45 post I don't remember the name of the 76:50 blog but great blog post this woman had 76:54 gone to the public market and Juarez and 76:57 met a spiritual worker there who does 77:01 tarot card reading 77:02 you know spiritual cleansing exorcisms 77:05 you know general spiritual worker work 77:07 but who was also Santa Muerte devotee 77:11 and yeah I mean the he he specifically 77:17 spoke about how he was you know he had 77:20 stepped away from the Catholic Church he 77:22 didn't feel that the Catholic path of 77:25 faith which involves you know baptism 77:30 communion confirmation 77:33 you know the different sacraments he 77:35 didn't think that the path of sacraments 77:37 was really effective for him that was 77:40 you know he kept saying this is my 77:42 personal belief but I don't think it is 77:44 and he said that you know he was one of 77:46 the folks who's said that you know they 77:47 petitioned the Virgin of Guadalupe it 77:49 didn't work petition st. Jude and I'm 77:52 assuming that was within like his 77:54 spiritual worker work because he said 77:56 that he was born into a family that had 77:58 taught him that tradition so you know 78:02 and that they weren't effective and that 78:04 when he went to Santa Muerte that she 78:06 was you know very effective that she was 78:08 she answered the the things and you know 78:11 he was he highlighted the neutrality of 78:14 it you know and said basically like if 78:16 you're gonna do bad that's not on Santa 78:18 Muerte 78:19 that's the individual you know and that 78:22 as the as the Catholic Church has gotten 78:24 more official in their condemnation I 78:27 think we're probably gonna start to see 78:29 more of that that kind of thing where 78:31 people you know what he said you know 78:33 again he's still recommended praying to 78:36 God before petitioning her and then 78:38 saying you know they are fathers 78:40 afterwards so that so yeah I'm sorry 78:44 those those were two things that caught 78:46 my attention there's a trailer to a 78:48 documentary that I saw which I cannot 78:50 find online it looks like I'm gonna have 78:52 to order the DVD which I haven't done it 78:54 not know how long 78:55 but the beginning of the trailer starts 78:57 with this mass group of people and the 79:00 first thing they do is as ask God's 79:03 permission to speak with death and that 79:07 was one of the things that started 79:09 welling the emotion up in me because I 79:11 was just like oh my gosh that is so 79:14 heavy right and the the other thing that 79:18 I wanted to mention right here was he 79:22 was talking about his theological 79:24 argument which was that from where he 79:29 was coming from Christ had to be touched 79:32 by death and that right can you go into 79:36 that a little bit yeah he'd say it's 79:39 interesting too because it comes into 79:41 not the personhood but the fact that 79:46 Christ defeated death in the passion 79:48 which is why the Catholic Church feels 79:50 that Santa Muerte is incompatible with 79:54 the faith he took that same story and in 79:57 his interpretation because Christ died 80:01 in the passion that he had to go through 80:04 death and therefore death was the the 80:09 one that God trusted enough to handle 80:12 his son's transition into the 80:15 resurrection so well for this guy yeah 80:20 for a lot of devotees that's not that's 80:22 not him alone that's something I've 80:24 heard in other places too 80:26 the very you know the passion itself 80:28 which the Catholic Church interprets as 80:31 saying you know Christ defeated death 80:33 death was the last enemy and that kind 80:35 of thing the Santa Muerte 80:37 devotees feel that well since Christ 80:40 passed through death to get to you know 80:42 the state of God had then obviously 80:45 death has a part in that and is the you 80:49 know again this second only to God and 80:51 power you know and he went into he went 80:54 into other things I mean he went into 80:56 details about it of you know if Christ 80:58 gave up all these worldly powers then 81:02 why why was death still necessary Christ 81:05 had already given up he'd already not 81:07 you know Satan and argue attempt to them 81:09 he didn't have to anything like that 81:10 then why why at the end of all that did 81:14 does death come into it you know and so 81:17 he said look in this you know in Garza's 81:19 opinion well death came into it because 81:21 she's that powerful you know now going 81:24 on that idea of how even the figure of 81:28 Christ had to be touched by Santa Muerte 81:32 array or the holy death you mentioned 81:37 also something about the Vedas oh no or 81:42 maybe it was maybe it was your 81:44 colleagues where they said the Vedas 81:45 that the Prince goes to death yeah yeah 81:49 yeah yeah there's a yeah there's a story 81:51 about the the a king makes a bet that 81:59 his best he makes it basically a king 82:02 makes a bet for his best possession so 82:04 if and he loses the battle so the best 82:08 possession turns out to be his son and 82:10 his son agrees that you know he'll be 82:14 taken to you know basically essentially 82:17 sacrificed you know and so the father is 82:20 like no I don't want you know I can't I 82:22 can't do that with my son I thought they 82:24 were gonna take horses you know I 82:25 thought they're gonna take some money or 82:27 something I didn't think they were gonna 82:27 take my son so the sons like no it's 82:30 dishonorable if I don't do this so you 82:32 know I'll go and I'll accept the 82:34 sacrifice so he gets killed and he goes 82:37 down to deaths palace and he knocks on 82:40 the door and nobody answers so he knocks 82:45 on the door again nobody answers so he 82:47 doesn't quite know what to do at this 82:49 point because he's been sacrificed in 82:50 this bet he's got to die that's not 82:52 there to take him so he waits it out and 82:55 death shows up and goes oh oh you know 82:58 I've made a mistake sorry you know I 83:02 wasn't home and you're here ash in here 83:05 that was really rude of me so what do 83:08 you want I'm not gonna take you but I'll 83:10 give you I'll give you what you want and 83:12 so the Prince asks for the secret of 83:15 death and death goes Oh even the gods 83:18 don't have that I take the gods you know 83:21 like you can't you can't have that 83:22 and he goes well you you weren't here 83:24 when I came here that was pretty rude 83:26 and that goes yeah you're right I owe 83:27 you something and I didn't you could 83:29 have whatever you wanted so here's the 83:31 sacred the secret of death and he gives 83:32 them something to probably not the best 83:36 way of putting it but it's it's not it's 83:38 like a fire ceremony that he's given so 83:42 you know a meditation on fire so it's 83:48 interesting to see the parallels there 83:50 with and I think that that piece I I had 83:54 written I don't know if I mentioned it 83:56 in the context of Santa Muerte I know 83:57 I've mentioned it in the context of the 83:59 Negrito in alchemy 84:00 oh well maybe we can just go right into 84:02 that because if we're gonna talk about 84:04 death and the mythology of death we 84:07 might as well jump right into Negredo 84:08 Negredo right here because you were also 84:10 the person who introduced me to alchemy 84:12 and at first I was like ah whatever and 84:15 then I then just like with the Santa 84:18 Muerte stuff like months later it comes 84:20 around to me and I'm like damn so we 84:23 might as well go like right into Negredo 84:25 blackness the fire and so on yeah and 84:28 then that was you know that in that 84:31 context Christ's death it's not in the 84:37 Bible it's not a biblical narrative but 84:39 within the kind of mythology of Christ's 84:43 death there's the idea of the harrowing 84:44 of how where Christ has to go down to 84:47 hell and save the people who had died in 84:51 sin because he had yet to be born 84:53 so the you know and in that he passes 84:59 through hell and then you have the 85:00 resurrection on the third day so go into 85:03 more I guess we should say real quick 85:04 what is alchemy and what in what sense 85:10 well I guess I guess if I had to 85:11 summarize that I would say that it's a 85:13 it's a it's a it's a set of spiritual 85:15 metaphors or spiritual technology that 85:17 has to do with turning a you know 85:20 quote-unquote 85:20 lead soul into a gold soul or the 85:23 Philosopher's Stone or a vessel that's 85:25 worthy of life and you see that in Egypt 85:28 too with the iconography of the scare of 85:30 the dung beetle and so on wait and 85:32 there's also the it's you can never 85:35 forget the practical and 85:36 right the and the fact that you know at 85:40 points in time it was very much a 85:42 specifically practical are the word a 85:44 lot of the early alchemical manuscripts 85:47 in that are on dying and basically 85:51 electroplating gold well you know in 85:53 creating gold substitutes and that kind 85:55 of thing so there's definitely a 85:57 material element to it which again I 86:01 think that you know it's another one of 86:03 those things that in our contemporary 86:04 society we have a really hard time 86:07 grasping the level at which the material 86:10 and the spiritual in tradition like 86:13 alchemy coming out of the influences 86:16 that it comes out of is working with and 86:18 that it's you know one of the the key 86:21 points in alchemy is that you know the 86:24 as above so below kind of concept where 86:27 the material and the spiritual are all a 86:32 part of the work you can never separate 86:34 those two things 86:35 now when you mean practical you're 86:36 talking about not just sitting around 86:38 thinking about lighting the fire of your 86:40 soul but actually doing sort of just 86:42 this chemistry work really yeah and you 86:46 know that you mentioned fire lighting a 86:49 fire you see like actually going out and 86:53 working with fire and going and working 86:56 with water and going out and working 86:58 with air because if you psychology if 87:03 you take psychology and you 87:04 intellectualize these ideas you're not 87:08 actually dealing with fire if you got 87:12 you can't like you can't just think fire 87:14 you gotta actually go deal with fire and 87:16 then see what lessons you can learn from 87:18 that and what does that mean to the work 87:20 that's and so you know people want to 87:22 jump right into lab work or even you 87:24 know the herbal alchemy stop but there's 87:26 some basic things that as a contemporary 87:29 person we you know a lot of people don't 87:32 deal with anymore like lighting a fire 87:34 keeping a fire tending a fire and then 87:36 when you start to get into the practical 87:38 work of actually working with the 87:40 materials there's specific temperatures 87:42 that you've got to get stuff to and if 87:44 you're working fully traditional you're 87:46 not working with 87:48 you know exact measurements and so it's 87:51 it's very much that you know that's why 87:53 it's an art because it requires a kind 87:57 of patience and that working with the 88:00 material you know and you can I don't 88:05 kind of a weekend a weekend example you 88:09 know would be you know doing like a like 88:15 a mandala or something like that you 88:17 know drop dollar where you're meditating 88:18 you're drawing you're working at or even 88:21 sculpting or any kind of art you know 88:22 where you're you're meditating on a 88:24 concept and then it's going through your 88:26 body and then it comes out in a material 88:29 form and if you're really fully working 88:31 with that there's a there's a 88:32 give-and-take with the material that 88:34 happens that you can you can get to 88:37 deeper levels with that and so you know 88:39 when we only talk about spiritual 88:40 alchemy and we only talk about sick you 88:43 know how alchemy is a type of psychology 88:44 or you know or if we only focus on the 88:47 material stuff and we say no it's early 88:48 proto Camus tree or whatever all those 88:51 things miss the integral nature of the 88:53 art itself and it's you know what it's 88:58 full functionality and it's full 89:01 expression you know and kind of vitality 89:04 so so before we close on alchemy the 89:07 goal is of course as I mentioned this 89:09 kind of idea of a soul that that becomes 89:12 worthy of alleged great work right yeah 89:15 it's refining the bringing the material 89:19 up to the spiritual and the spiritual 89:21 down to the material one last thing is 89:23 for those of you who like some good old 89:26 pulp fiction there's a short story and 89:28 the book haunted by Chuck Palahniuk the 89:30 one of the last ones called obsolete 89:32 where he describes a mass suicide taking 89:35 place on earth because they realized 89:37 heaven is on Venus and that you get 89:40 reincarnated and that the earth is a 89:42 rock polisher and it polishes you 89:44 through friction and heavy experiences 89:47 and things like this it's very similar 89:48 to the ideas of like karma and the wheel 89:50 and always turning but the joke and the 89:52 Palahniuk short story is that everyone 89:56 starts committing mass suicide and 89:58 clogging the spiritual recycling system 90:00 because 90:01 they're tired of living on earth they 90:02 just want to go to Venus on heaven so 90:05 sort of a similar idea there folks but 90:07 so that's alchemy let's rewind back to 90:10 what you were talking about my grade oh 90:12 and this Christ parable that's not in 90:15 the Bible 90:16 yeah the the harrowing of hell is uh I 90:21 don't know exactly when it came about 90:23 but it's you know definitely was 90:25 apparent in the Middle Ages you have a 90:27 lot of picture you know like paintings a 90:30 mat of the Christ going through the 90:31 harrowing of hell and it's the period 90:33 between his death on the cross and then 90:36 his God you know walking moving the 90:39 stone and walking out of the cave and 90:42 the story was that he was down in hell 90:44 you know basically defeating how and 90:45 bringing out the the souls who had died 90:47 who were their only sin had been to die 90:50 before he was resurrected 90:53 so with that you have this narrative 90:56 that then when you think about the in 90:58 terms of the the prints going down to 91:01 death and you know or any of the Orpheus 91:04 you know going into the underworld you 91:06 got it there's a ton of stories like 91:07 that which let me come focus through 91:10 this concept of harrowing of hell as 91:12 well I'm Hercules even yeah Hercule 91:15 exactly i we've got it's just 91:17 innumerable innumerable it's the hero's 91:19 journey you know I mean joseph campbell 91:22 all the things that he talked about that 91:24 kind of stuff so but it's you know it's 91:28 extra biblical that's not in the Bible 91:30 there's no description of what Christ 91:32 did you know in the that interim of 91:34 three days so but I think the fact that 91:37 it is extra biblical and that it comes 91:39 up is such a potent aspect of you know 91:42 kind of the folk faith shows that 91:45 whatever those stories relate to about 91:49 the hero or Christ or the prince or 91:53 whatever going down to death and having 91:57 that experience you know when you 91:59 mentioned Egypt earlier you know the 92:01 books of the Dead which were also for 92:03 the living it was an initiative kind of 92:05 mystery that concept of going to death 92:08 to gain the greatest secret of life 92:11 itself by Gilgamesh right 92:14 like that's the story so whatever that 92:20 whatever those stories are kind of 92:21 clustering around that concept is very 92:25 much prevalent I think in what we're 92:27 seeing with Santa Muerte the same kind 92:30 of question you know the same mystery 92:32 there you know except for like wit like 92:35 you mentioned earlier with the fact that 92:38 Santa Muerte is so prevalent in you know 92:41 folk culture street culture that here 92:45 you've got a tradition that death is 92:48 right there you know it's a grim reaper 92:50 standing right in front of you and 92:51 that's that moment of the prince meeting 92:53 death you know because you're not dead 92:55 yet and there's death so what's 92:58 happening and that gives that access you 93:02 know potentially for the person to have 93:04 that experience where they're given that 93:07 secret you know depending on their 93:09 relationship with that and their their 93:11 ability or you know whatever their 93:13 humility if they're worthy of it they're 93:17 given that confrontation simply by the 93:20 devotion you know so it's it's 93:23 incredibly egalitarian that you have a 93:26 story you know an ancient story from the 93:28 Vedas that discusses a prince being 93:30 given it you know and whether or not we 93:32 want to think of that as Prince in terms 93:35 of you know actual royalty or something 93:38 or a spiritual you know sort of or 93:41 aristocracy or something 93:42 here you've got a tradition that's 93:44 available to taxi drivers or whoever you 93:46 know similar to alchemy available to 93:49 everyone open if they can if they can 93:52 access it that promises in a certain 93:54 sense and the potential of the symbolism 93:56 and the iconography that's being worked 93:59 to have access to that the greatest 94:02 secret of life you know and the other 94:05 thing it brings to mind is I was it was 94:08 I was made aware of this theme of the 94:12 presence of death and initially sex and 94:17 society's mystery schools and 94:19 philosophical schools throughout the 94:21 Mediterranean where I mean you see it 94:25 also in Freemasonry and other groups 94:27 where the 94:28 first initiation is a a mock death or a 94:33 mock funeral which may or may not 94:35 include you know certain hallucinogens 94:39 or dissociatives that they as well as 94:42 you know ceremony and sort of things 94:43 like that I think this was even in 94:45 Pythagoras's school where the the whole 94:47 thing is about you have this this 94:50 introduction to death for the initiate 94:53 the possibility the potentiality the 94:56 reality of it and then if we take that 94:59 all the way back to this one we're 95:01 talking about right here alchemy the 95:03 first phase is the death phase and I 95:06 great O face and I can't help but think 95:08 about my upbringing which was more Zen 95:12 centric and when you look at kind of the 95:14 Zen mind Zen mind is about sort of 95:17 nakedness and it makes sense to me that 95:20 a Western mystical philosophical 95:23 tradition would begin with a negative 95:28 yeah that's with her being second only 95:33 to God I think that you mentioned Zen 95:36 you know and obviously in Zen Buddhism 95:39 that's one of the Buddhist traditions 95:40 that's farthest away from any kind of 95:44 deification of the Buddha you know with 95:50 with that kind of tradition Santa Muerte 95:54 as being second only to God and thus the 95:57 thing that kills all the other gods kind 96:00 of provides access to that sense you 96:04 know at least there's a potential for it 96:06 too which is I think one of the things 96:07 another sort of hazy aspect about Santa 96:11 Muerte she's very much very much 96:16 activated by potentials we see you know 96:21 this faith tradition kind of spring out 96:24 of nowhere even though it was you know 96:26 developing under the radar suddenly gets 96:29 a public faiths and then BAM you know 96:32 tons of books are published shrines pop 96:34 up everywhere seemingly out of nowhere 96:37 but the potential is always there and so 96:40 and when you start to look at her icon 96:41 the symbols that are associated with her 96:44 and what can be worked with that and 96:45 what people you know devotees are 96:46 already saying it's amazing to see how 96:50 those potentials become reality and the 96:53 lives of you know the people that work 96:54 with me the other thing about this image 96:58 that struck me when I really gave it the 97:01 attention it deserved is that I realized 97:04 when it comes to anthropomorphic images 97:06 you know some of the vogue at least in 97:09 the alternative spirituality community 97:11 some of the vogue goddesses or gods are 97:17 rather complex they have attributes you 97:19 have you know like Babylon and Philemon 97:22 of course you have Gaia and other sort 97:26 of more nebulous DIY style earth magic 97:31 type things and you have like these 97:33 these feminine goddess archetypes sacred 97:36 prostitutes etc but this that and you 97:41 know for example they take a look at 97:42 Babylon where you have a woman on a nine 97:44 headed dragon coming to town I think 97:47 it's nine heads maybe seven I forgot but 97:50 just that image is sort of like not very 97:53 easy to identify with you know 97:55 regardless of whatever you want to say 97:57 about it it's just alien to experience 98:00 now other anthropomorphic mystical 98:04 magical images like that of a child or 98:06 that of copulation you know more easily 98:09 identifiable to the average person and 98:11 what they mean and things like that but 98:13 it was the this anthropomorphize ation 98:16 of death and then recontextualizing her 98:19 out of this 98:20 you know which I want to go into after 98:22 this is the the previously sort of male 98:24 Grim Reaper and what that one was like 98:26 as opposed to Santa Muerte here that the 98:30 death icon a figure symbol meaning is 98:34 hugely more visceral to immediate 98:37 experience than a picture of a baby you 98:41 know new life and so on or images of 98:44 copulation where you have union yoga 98:47 religion Tantra etc but it's this this 98:50 death one on the far end where it's like 98:53 whoa that is where the real mystery 98:55 is because the real mystery is death 98:58 which is sort of outside of living 99:01 consciousness living consciousness can't 99:03 really approach 99:04 death and yet it is present right right 99:08 yeah exactly exactly 99:09 and if you think about it too the 99:11 fascination and will the reason that we 99:13 can read a symbol like a you know like a 99:15 baby or something like that you know 99:17 like things like a cherub or the eternal 99:21 child figures that show up and some of 99:24 the alchemical manuscripts in that the 99:27 reason that we can identify that is 99:28 because the child represents the death 99:31 of the baby which is then killed by the 99:33 you know next step in getting older and 99:36 we are no longer children and therefore 99:38 there's a bit the kind of death and 99:40 separation there so we're always seeing 99:42 things from these differences well what 99:44 are those differences those differences 99:46 are small deaths or little breaks 99:48 between the whole and you know that kind 99:50 of thing so what we're seeing it is the 99:53 way that you know what a devotee of 99:55 Santa Muerte 99:56 might say is that what we're seeing 99:57 literally is what Santa Muerte is 99:59 showing us you know and so again you've 100:02 the it just can always be reworked back 100:05 to this like you're pointing out I mean 100:07 Santa Muerte becomes such a basic figure 100:11 that all those other symbols get 100:12 consumed by the potential that she has 100:15 in her own iconography and symbolist 100:17 exactly and that's the thing that's 100:19 really blowing my mind is because I am 100:21 NOT an icon guy I am like you know I 100:24 find them fascinating I've played with 100:26 them I've done visualization things I've 100:28 like played with the available spiritual 100:31 technology market I was doing yoga when 100:33 I was like a preteen and you know 100:36 meditation at around the same time and 100:39 then even going into like techno ated 100:41 ones like binaural beat technology I 100:43 have never had a reaction to an icon 100:47 like the reaction I'm going through 100:50 right now with Santa Muerte yeah it's I 100:55 mean it's potent it didn't hit me 100:59 I kinda yeah I kind of had that I kind 101:02 of had that as well the initial research 101:04 I was kind of blown away by what it was 101:07 and was 101:07 and was 101:09 excited by that but a the the personal 101:14 rattle specs had really kicked in you 101:18 know and then I was I was really trying 101:20 to get into it because I'm not Catholic 101:22 I've never been to Mexico I've had high 101:29 school Spanish yeah trying to get into 101:33 the trying to get into studying it how 101:37 do how does one do that you know and so 101:39 I started really paying attention to the 101:42 iconography and really thinking through 101:44 what the devotees were saying and in 101:47 that process you know kind of had a 101:49 similar experience to yours where 101:51 [Music] 101:53 suddenly you're facing this you know 101:56 symbol complex or whatever that becomes 102:01 something more and has this whole thing 102:02 and starts to change the way that you 102:04 look at stuff you know and so it's it's 102:06 an even dealing with the the 102:08 condemnation from the Catholic Church or 102:10 you know statements from the US Marshall 102:14 other academic kind of surveys of the 102:20 tradition you know where they're coming 102:21 from and stuff like that that stuff 102:25 starts to get filtered through the lens 102:26 of Santa Muerte to you know where 102:28 because the icons so potent and simple 102:31 and just there and so directly related 102:33 to something that's so integral to you 102:37 know life right um you just start to 102:40 kind of see it everywhere and it starts 102:41 to kind of you know be you know almost 102:45 as if you're seeing like through the 102:46 eyes of Santa Muerte you know which I 102:49 and I would assume that if someone's 102:52 really really frightened by it and it 102:54 takes on some kind of you know in their 102:57 mind evil order you know satanic sense I 103:00 can see how somebody would be really 103:02 freaked out by that you know the fact 103:03 that yeah death is constantly like 103:06 around you and then you have this icon 103:08 or figure which reminds you of that that 103:10 you think satanic like that would really 103:12 mess with somebody's head yeah yeah and 103:14 that's that's that's what I'm sensing 103:16 right now is the threat because even I 103:18 at first was averted somewhat threatened 103:22 by it 103:22 but then it opens this whole door where 103:25 it asks you why are you averted to this 103:28 why do you feel threatened by it why do 103:30 you and so then at the same time 103:32 considering all these like you know 103:34 agencies and institutions and religions 103:37 that are threatened by it makes one 103:40 think about the maturity of the human 103:44 beings who are taking it into their life 103:46 where it's like no we really have to 103:48 have a dialogue with death like you 103:50 understand everything right everything 103:53 that you're talking about whatnot leads 103:55 to death everything that you're 103:57 proposing leads to death eventually so 104:01 we actually have to have a dialogue with 104:03 the phenomenon the process in some cases 104:06 the entity etc yeah exactly and that's I 104:09 think that's where you know we were 104:11 talking about the the commercialization 104:13 of it and that if you look at other 104:16 aspects of death in contemporary culture 104:18 in the United States in Europe and you 104:22 know around the world because of the 104:23 internet and global the you know the 104:26 folks who do well I mean I work you know 104:30 with the Observatory room up in Brooklyn 104:35 to put on events and morbid anatomy 104:38 library as a part of that you know it's 104:40 kind of a ryu know look at Deaf culture 104:42 and what is you know what's our 104:44 relationship with that the Medical 104:45 Humanities than that and then there's 104:47 the death salon you know which is 104:50 directly dealing its scholars and you 104:54 know artists and every you know 104:57 creatives and that coming together to 104:59 discuss what is death you know in 105:02 culture like because we're not looking 105:03 at it you know our culture is not 105:04 dealing with it but like you said we're 105:06 moving down a path in a lot of different 105:08 areas where we're causing extensive 105:11 damage and you know essentially 105:14 summoning death you know calling death 105:16 into the world so yeah I think that 105:20 dialogues it's completely necessary and 105:22 then we see this growth of Santa Muerte 105:24 which shows that obviously people are 105:27 thinking about this you know obviously 105:29 this is an issue you know and where does 105:31 Santa Muerte come up from it comes up 105:33 from you know the barrios of Mexico 105:36 where you've got corrupt government 105:37 officials corrupt cops you've got gangs 105:40 you've got you know every level of 105:44 violence like across the board and Santa 105:46 Muerte appears you know so I don't think 105:49 that you know I think our culture has a 105:51 hard time dealing with symbols because 105:53 they don't really know what to do with 105:55 them sure you know we either want to 105:57 either want to give it and say like oh 105:59 this is a symbol of a god or a goddess 106:01 or God or whatever right like you show 106:04 them the eye in a triangle and there's 106:05 so many different realities yeah yeah 106:08 exactly yeah and put this like really 106:09 heavy well narrative weight on it you 106:12 know or we want to completely dismiss it 106:13 and say it doesn't mean anything it's 106:14 crap and it's just a veil for something 106:16 else and these people are you know 106:18 narcos or whatever but you know like the 106:21 what the symbol when it crops up with 106:23 such crap L&C; is really saying is hey 106:26 guys wake up like this you know this is 106:28 coming like you guys are stewing in it 106:30 and it's gonna start appearing in your 106:33 dreams 106:33 and you're the symbols that crop up in 106:36 your life the symbols that you associate 106:38 with and feel comfortable with those are 106:41 all signs that that thing is there and 106:43 present and common you know it's kind of 106:45 like you know like a skin rash shows you 106:48 that you're having an allergic reaction 106:49 you know when you start to see death 106:52 cults pop up you're living in a society 106:55 where death is a huge issue you know 106:59 yeah and this this brings me to 107:02 something I wanted to talk about which 107:03 was kind of unplanned and came to my 107:06 mind a while ago before we got on here 107:11 because otherwise I would have sent you 107:12 a message about it earlier so you had a 107:14 chance to think about it but it but it 107:15 is kind of a strange concept and that is 107:20 the threat of death that death isn't 107:24 just threatening in the sense of like 107:26 one day one will die but that forces 107:29 agencies institutions regimes religions 107:33 and just your neighbor you know if 107:36 you're in the wrong neighborhood will 107:37 threaten you with death so in other 107:40 words death is a kind of punishment 107:42 death is a threat it's a death threat so 107:45 I mean it's kind of strange but when you 107:48 think about it what is 107:49 one army due to another army well we're 107:51 gonna threaten you with death that's 107:53 what we're gonna do 107:54 death and destruction right right now 107:58 that to me is kind of interesting how 107:59 when it comes to the threats that's the 108:01 threat is that we will kill you right 108:05 exactly and that's that's exactly why 108:07 you have contract killers and people 108:10 like that who work with Santa Muerte not 108:13 just to make their kills efficient or to 108:16 not be caught by the cops but to work 108:19 through their feelings and fears of 108:21 death because of the fact that they 108:22 issue that threat of death and then also 108:25 know that that could very easily come 108:27 back on them you know and so how do they 108:29 work through that fear that was that was 108:31 an interesting thing when I started 108:32 looking at Santa Muerte and looking at 108:34 this tradition I was I was working at a 108:38 music store right out of college and the 108:43 the currency exchange next door got 108:46 robbed and in the process you know since 108:49 I was there and a friend of mine was at 108:52 the story at the time since we were 108:54 essentially witnesses to it we got held 108:57 at gunpoint and my friends an idiot this 109:04 is why I wanted to bring David on every 109:05 way I wanted to bring him on because 109:07 he's always got like something like this 109:08 like I was held at gunpoint my friend 109:10 was totally well no Ivan we're sitting 109:13 outside like we're we're sitting outside 109:15 having a cigarette at this music store I 109:18 had the I had the phone sitting next to 109:20 me and the next thing I know is some 109:22 guys reaching for the phone and people 109:24 are rude you know like I figured like oh 109:26 he needs to use the phone so I look up 109:28 and I'm you know facing a nine 109:30 millimeter God and I was like oh no like 109:34 the average night at the Music Store you 109:36 know in suburban Chicago like this is 109:38 different so I you know was like whoa at 109:43 this point like what do you do well my 109:45 friend smoking the cigarette and we go 109:48 you know the guy's telling us to get 109:50 back in the store and my friends like he 109:52 tells the guy who's holding the gun to 109:54 us he goes oh I've got a I've got a 109:56 cigarette I can't you know I can't go in 109:59 the store and the guy looks at him like 110:01 are you insane I'm holding 110:02 ain't you like you need to get in the 110:04 store you know he's like oh yeah okay 110:05 I'm sorry like throws the cigarette but 110:08 I mean this was this was at that point I 110:10 was sure that we were gonna get shot 110:12 then the guy tells me to face the wall 110:14 the way that the thing was positioned I 110:15 couldn't face the wall so I'm facing 110:17 this guy while he's like wandering 110:19 around with this gun and I look at him 110:22 and I'm like oh crap the dudes on coke - 110:24 so he's coked up he's got this gun he's 110:27 sweating like crazy he's nervous his 110:29 friend is robbing the currency exchange 110:31 and he goes to steal CDs and none of the 110:35 CDs are in the case so like as this is 110:37 progressing all I'm seeing is 110:39 everything's going wrong in this 110:41 situation I'm gonna have a bullet 110:43 straight through my head in about a few 110:45 seconds to a minute here and it all 110:47 turned out okay 110:48 there was no problem I talked to the guy 110:51 like was fine with it like came to a 110:55 realization where I had no choice there 110:58 was nothing I could do I was either 111:00 gonna die or not die and it became 111:02 really calm and so afterwards I found 111:07 out that the whole robbery was set up by 111:09 a corrupt cop and who had gotten 111:13 people's personal information to 111:14 blackmail the we're not even blackmail I 111:17 guess extort the currency exchange clerk 111:21 and so when I started dealing with the 111:24 Santa Muerte tradition and reading about 111:27 it and thinking about what the symbol 111:28 meant I realized that in a way that 111:31 moment where I had that gun on me was 111:34 very similar to what people describe you 111:36 know where Santa Muerte saves them and 111:38 so I started thinking about that in 111:40 terms of I was in a moment where I was 111:42 sure I was gonna die and very well could 111:44 have died and the peace that that 111:47 entailed and the release that that 111:50 entailed and what does that mean through 111:53 this symbol sack so I had like a very 111:55 you know and have a very visceral 111:57 connection to that I can access that 112:01 level of the tradition you know and 112:03 think about it so you know I just think 112:08 it's a very powerful way to in our 112:12 contemporary we've got drone pilots that 112:14 I mean 112:15 mind you know I mean drone pilots that 112:17 are killing people in computer games but 112:19 they're really killing people and you 112:22 know death is becoming distant and 112:25 strange but still having psychological 112:27 effects and so you know you have 112:30 something like Santa Muerte and it's a 112:33 way to like use the word conversation 112:36 you know to have a conversation with 112:38 this this thing that's so prevalent and 112:42 yet so distant you know in our lives and 112:44 unless you've had like a Drex 112:46 you know experience with it like I've 112:48 had car accidents and stuff like that 112:50 where I've walked away from flipped over 112:52 cars so again thinking about that in 112:55 terms of the symbol set and the ideas 112:57 behind Santa Muerte has really given an 113:01 interesting you know insights into the 113:03 tradition and at the same time the 113:05 traditions given me insights into my own 113:09 experiences with that you know and I'm 113:12 glad you brought up the drones because 113:13 even the United States I mean we've been 113:15 talking about developing a an oppressive 113:19 this death culture here for quite some 113:22 time now I mean the rise in homicides by 113:28 you know people who are supposed to be 113:30 protectors police officers I'm not 113:32 trying to just nag on police officers 113:35 because I would never do that because I 113:37 know many of them are are very sincere 113:39 about justice and the law which I'm very 113:41 sincere about - I don't really subscribe 113:44 to an Antarctic Way of view I think that 113:46 you have law if you don't have law you 113:48 don't really have anything but it has to 113:50 be like legitimate law in other words 113:52 everyone has to follow it but when you 113:55 see in America with the rise of the 113:57 drones as you mentioned as well as the 114:00 rise in homicides by police officers I 114:06 mean I just read on Facebook this week 114:08 where a kid was shot in a pickup truck 114:11 because someone wanted to prove a point 114:13 or something like that his grandfather 114:15 or something was just utterly ridiculous 114:19 I'd say it they become ludicrous they 114:21 become absurd and it and it's like well 114:24 we have to have a conversation with our 114:25 protectors but besides that take in mind 114:28 something 114:29 like habeas corpus or the rise of you 114:32 know certain legislation in the United 114:34 States where it's basically like well 114:35 you know you don't even have a trial and 114:37 in fact we can sort of kill you if we 114:39 want to I mean that's why Rand Paul and 114:41 company had that filibuster a few months 114:45 ago wherein they were on the floor 114:47 saying can the president legally murder 114:50 a US citizen which which has already 114:52 happened twice from what I understand at 114:54 least with drones and I think one of 114:57 them was a child so there is this you 115:00 know a for a place that is trying to 115:02 stand for justice you've justice and law 115:06 to see this kind of thing where death is 115:09 sort of like well we'll actually deal 115:10 death like will straight deal death and 115:13 you know why not now again that's not to 115:16 put the whole onus on that institution 115:18 but to say that it is very real it's a 115:20 very real thing so to to see it spread 115:24 to the United States in ways I mean I'm 115:26 not really surprised it's it's the whole 115:30 war situation I mean it's a it's a 115:32 country based on war in the military 115:34 industrial complex etc it doesn't always 115:36 have to be that way but that's what it 115:38 is right now so the whole sort of 115:40 reality is around this new legalization 115:44 of death and from that I'm really not 115:46 surprised that you have a figure like 115:47 Santa Muerte showing up who is you know 115:50 death but also a kind of like antidote 115:53 to that crisis and also I mean that yeah 115:57 definitely 115:58 definitely in Hannah doe to it and a you 116:01 know as you said before not not 116:05 necessarily a negative figure you know a 116:07 figure that's very conducive to 116:10 communication and that you know within 116:12 the daikon agraphia and her tradition 116:14 and I think something it's interesting 116:17 as I was as as you were talking about 116:20 American death culture and you know the 116:23 military-industrial complex and all that 116:25 the one thing that a lot of people don't 116:29 talk about anymore we talk about drones 116:31 we talk about the you know the 116:36 the surveillance state and all that kind 116:38 of stuff right is the fact that nuclear 116:40 weapons exist right very powerful 116:43 nuclear weapons right now our arms and 116:48 waiting to be fired and we invented them 116:53 here it was there was a whole global 116:56 effort to invent them and they were 117:00 tested in New Mexico and they were 117:03 tested in Hawaii we dropped him on Japan 117:06 they've been used we have more powerful 117:09 ones now we've got Fukushima blasting 117:12 radiation into who knows why follow and 117:16 we've released the death genie out of 117:19 the bottle we're not just you know it's 117:21 not just drones and the military and 117:24 police and all that right literally 117:26 right now dying period right we release 117:29 nuclear energy it's we don't have a 117:32 culture that can handle it we don't have 117:34 responsible leadership that can handle 117:35 it and we live under constant threat of 117:38 immediate annihilation right and in that 117:43 situation you know Burroughs wrote about 117:45 this Burroughs wrote about how America 117:49 had you know and I don't know if you can 117:53 even really say America because Germany 117:55 was going for the bomb - I mean 117:56 everybody was going for the nuclear 117:57 thing so Billy a global effort but we've 118:01 gone to Beth's door and there's no 118:05 turning back you know I mean there's 118:07 either enlightenment or there's gonna be 118:09 some kind of catastrophe it's not a 118:12 point where we're you know maybe the 118:14 king will die and we'll get a better 118:16 regime right no replacement no 118:19 replacement for government or anything 118:21 is gonna solve the fact that we have 118:24 Unleashed radiation to levels that will 118:27 eventually destroy us if we don't set it 118:30 off faster yeah there's notes if there's 118:33 no escaping the atom bomb right and that 118:35 question is something that we kind of 118:38 dance I mean the Fukushima thing you 118:40 know like sort of awaken people to that 118:42 but the the issue of nuclear energy is 118:46 vital to 118:49 you know just realizing that we are not 118:52 we're not in control of things you know 118:55 there's something's been released that 118:57 can't be put away you know and that 118:59 that's another reason that I think I'm 119:02 kind of a you know if if you can save 119:05 subconscious or you know symbolic level 119:08 or whatever I think that's another thing 119:10 that's playing into the Santa Muerte 119:12 stuff you know is that as a global 119:14 culture we're we've already passed the 119:17 tipping point you know yeah the the 119:21 other thing that it brought to mind of 119:23 course is you know 119:25 Oppenheimer I am become death the 119:27 destroyer of worlds 119:29 right I mean that's that was a real that 119:32 was a real moment it's like it's like 119:33 humanity at least from what we know 119:35 there are some researchers out there who 119:37 say like I mean even Oppenheimer himself 119:39 said we've done this before you know in 119:41 a kind of ominous sort of way where he 119:43 was implying that that human 119:45 civilizations have come and gone based 119:48 on atomic power right and whether or not 119:52 that's true the suggestion is certainly 119:55 real today well and going back to going 119:59 back to alchemy too if you look at folk 120:02 and alley one of the key elements of 120:05 folk analysis social commentary is about 120:10 nuclear energy and about the nuclear 120:12 question really yeah and that it's a you 120:18 know it with Oppenheimer saying you know 120:22 I've become death destroyer of worlds 120:23 and you've got Jack Parsons summoning 120:26 right you know Babylon for the 120:29 apocalypse and then going to work on the 120:33 you know Manhattan Project in that 120:38 there's a big question there of what 120:40 happened in that moment in history and 120:44 symbolically what does that mean and 120:46 what does that mean for what we're doing 120:47 right now and the fact that we have a 120:50 major movement that's bringing you know 120:54 a figure of death forward as a popular 120:56 cult figure when the last time that that 120:58 happened was 121:02 on a small scale at the end of the 121:05 century in France is reaction to the 121:08 French Revolution other small-scale was 121:12 prior to Nazi Germany when you had a big 121:14 upswing in decadent art and other times 121:19 have been the plague deaths and that so 121:22 when you start to see these death 121:23 symbols you know even if you look at the 121:26 current scholarship on this stuff look 121:29 at the times when those symbols became 121:31 prevalent what was going on in society 121:33 and then think about how prevalent it is 121:35 now what we kind of ignore it at the 121:37 same time and what does that mean for 121:40 what's going on and you know what could 121:41 be kind of coming down the line and not 121:44 only that but you know you can't not 121:46 neglect Damien Hirst's for the love of 121:49 God the status skull adorned with grace 121:54 right and then it making an appearance 121:56 in jay-z music video and then indeed the 122:01 entire weird like and weird in a lame 122:05 way I would like to mention there's 122:07 there's a lot of people who harp on like 122:10 we the it really yeah weird in a lame 122:14 way where they like where people tend to 122:16 harp on the the presence of you know 122:19 occult and esoteric imagery in a popular 122:24 hip-hop pop music pop R&B; and that kind 122:27 of thing and how it does have a kind of 122:29 death centric you know resurrection 122:32 exorcism type of thing and and that's 122:34 like that's more of a lame 122:36 interpretation for me it's like it never 122:38 really it actually I never thought the 122:40 occult could suck until I really like 122:43 watched what the music industry could do 122:46 with it post like say Led Zeppelin in 122:48 the hair bands and all that like heavy 122:50 metal stuff one's kind of like hip-hop 122:52 you know it's like what I call its hip 122:54 pop it's not hip hop it's hip pop once 122:57 that kind of like picked up on all these 123:00 kind of like occultist themes I was Nev 123:02 never been more disappointed in a genre 123:05 of music you know I thought I was gonna 123:07 hate the 80s forever you know growing up 123:10 I thought I was always gonna be like I 123:11 just don't get with those synthesizers 123:13 man just sounds too robotic 123:14 but seeing them in their performances 123:16 and their over-the-top glitz and glam 123:18 and type of thing it's like you know it 123:20 it's so it gives it you know if their 123:25 satanic they give Satanism a bad name I 123:29 kind of like that jay-z video okay it's 123:33 addictive it really is the chant the 123:35 chant I've got I don't know I've I like 123:41 pop music 123:42 yeah you know I'm neutral too it's a 123:45 lesson that stands where to hit stop 123:47 means to be neutral to to pop music such 123:50 a hater that's that you know that that 123:54 song grew on me for it's for the fact 123:58 that you could pick it apart and have a 123:59 lot of fun with it cuz it is this kind 124:01 of you know bizarre hypnotic chant on to 124:03 the next one would take these 124:05 suggestions of mammon going on and all 124:07 this stuff yeah and human sacrifice and 124:09 stuff because all the people portrayed 124:11 in it are dead 124:11 it was I didn't even notice that is that 124:14 right yeah they were all dead and next 124:17 one man on to the next like that the 124:21 potential see that's what I think they 124:22 are called potential in that song like 124:24 Anna necromantic potential in that right 124:26 is uh it's pretty uh it's pretty fun I 124:31 mean a conspiracy like the conspiracy 124:35 stuff goes not so over it sure you know 124:37 it like I think those I think that maybe 124:38 one of the videos were like they 124:40 actually pause it like at a certain 124:41 point where Satan's face appears and 124:43 like a flame somewhere you know like off 124:45 to the like left-hand side or something 124:47 yeah I mean like that one that one's for 124:50 deep analysis by the experienced the 124:53 conspiratorial crowd so yeah that's a 124:55 that's a they go through it almost 124:57 shot-by-shot yeah yeah it's I mean in 125:01 some ways if you look at like if you 125:03 look at very detailed but not very new 125:06 clots kind of history where the person's 125:09 gone till like a really like the scholar 125:11 goes in and just like picks apart like 125:13 you know like just almost down to like 125:17 the the skin flakes level of Street you 125:20 know but there's really no nuance to it 125:21 but it's really helpful when you're 125:23 looking for those skin playing details 125:25 that's what I think kind of 125:27 paranoid conspiracy stuff is good for 125:29 because like every aspect of it and it 125:33 may be a jumbled mass once it gets Chino 125:35 gather into the picture that's presented 125:37 but there's so many different details 125:38 and facts there that you can kind of go 125:40 in and you know very carefully like 125:43 unpick the facts and kind of explore 125:45 meet different little areas of history 125:47 and you know social psychology that's 125:51 great this is it's good for a break 125:53 right there you want to take another 125:54 five and then we'll like see if we do a 125:56 little more yeah cool man All Right see 125:58 you okay we're back and look to close 126:41 the segment I have a couple more 126:42 questions wanted to ask you and this is 126:46 about well there's two aspects to this 126:51 part of the conversation and that's kind 126:53 of the rise of female centric you know 126:56 deities or forces or which have you and 126:59 I mentioned this earlier and something I 127:01 wrote today where it seems that the 127:05 modern 127:05 altar the modern all spiritual mind is 127:09 interested in you know Gaia Kali Babylon 127:14 eros with the discord ian's and these 127:17 kinds of things and now we have Santa 127:19 Muerte showing up and just kind of 127:22 thinking about that how it's moving from 127:23 the you know sort of masculine phallic 127:27 interpretation of sanctity and divinity 127:31 and so on to this female oriented when I 127:34 wondered if you had any thoughts or 127:36 ideas about that it's interesting with 127:39 the 127:40 the development of Santa Muerte because 127:43 there's a couple different skeleton 127:46 Saints in Latin America there's a San la 127:50 muerte which is a male figure there's a 127:54 rapist squall who's another male 127:57 skeleton figure and there's Senor la 128:02 muerte which is kind of similar and 128:05 maybe tied into Santa Marta but those 128:11 have actually they have a developed cult 128:15 persona where they're they're tied to at 128:18 least a mythical if not a historical 128:20 personage so you would think that they 128:26 would have an easier time developing 128:27 into something as fully as full-blown is 128:32 what's going on with the Santa Muerte 128:33 tradition but they haven't and they 128:36 they've been around you know as open 128:40 [Music] 128:42 traditions longer so you know for some 128:46 reason Santa Muerte took off where they 128:50 did you know and was able to you know 128:53 grow in ways that they haven't been able 128:55 to and so that it is interesting that 128:58 you know here you've got a female 129:00 representation of death that takes on 129:03 qualities that death really has never 129:06 taken on him you know in u.s. culture so 129:09 despite that neither is these male 129:11 interpretations of death down in the 129:13 same area they're not catching on as 129:15 much as the feminine up here in you know 129:19 northern New Jersey New York and the 129:22 Brooklyn area when it comes to the old 129:24 spirituality community the first time at 129:26 least I bumped into the notion of the 129:27 goddess was through Terence Mckenna 129:29 and he always harps on the goddess and 129:32 divine energy and then later I picked up 129:34 a book much later I picked up a book 129:36 called the sacred prostitute which was 129:38 by a Jungian analyst for young in 129:40 analysts and just seeing this rise this 129:45 return of like the female oriented 129:47 archetypes 129:49 I'm sure you've sort of bumped into it 129:51 as well 129:53 I mean it's it's interesting in terms of 130:00 again this is another area that I have 130:03 difficulty with because of the the 130:07 contemplative tradition never lost that 130:10 so in terms of the influences that have 130:16 been important you know in what I would 130:18 have always been interested in studying 130:20 since I was you know like a kid it's 130:24 always been kind of like related to like 130:26 the troubadour tradition or you know 130:28 it's always had like an aspect of kind 130:30 of the Divine Feminine so you know 130:35 thinking about what kind of drivers 130:36 there are I think one of the things that 130:38 is a flaw in my own research and that is 130:41 that I usually only research stuff I 130:42 mean I'm interested in you know I mean 130:46 it's kind of it in some way it's kind of 130:47 like piqued my curiosity so I don't 130:50 always have like the the objective 130:51 distance from it so to see like the 130:54 development of like I mean cuz there's 130:56 obvious social drivers and the fact that 130:58 you know we live in a culture that's 131:00 very male-dominated and it's again we 131:02 live in a flawed culture so there's kind 131:05 of like a return to a balance you know 131:07 that's necessary to bring those out you 131:10 know and then but with the 131:11 popularization too I think that a lot of 131:13 the the alternative spiritualities that 131:16 came forward because of what the 131:19 alternative culture was you know because 131:23 if you think about the the different 131:25 things you had the you know women's 131:26 rights you had gay rights you had free 131:29 love you know and you have free love 131:30 back into like the 1800s you know or I'm 131:33 sorry like back into the forever 131:36 I mean you know there were Gnostic 131:37 heresies there were free love heresies 131:39 William Blake was part of a Christian 131:43 sect you know practice at times sort of 131:47 free love ideas so you know that's 131:50 always kind of improvement but those 131:51 those ideas that have always been kind 131:54 of tied to the alternative have been 131:57 tied to that sense of you know what we 132:00 would consider like a minority group in 132:03 terms of power in society that's always 132:05 the alternative 132:06 you know so it doesn't surprise me that 132:07 the alternative spirituality in kind of 132:10 society that consistently refers to God 132:14 is him and that kind of stuff you know I 132:18 mean it would just make sense then that 132:19 the alternative spirituality would be 132:21 feminine you know don't you yeah yeah I 132:24 think you're right in some in the sense 132:26 that it's maybe that it's not so much 132:29 alternative anymore where now it's 132:30 becoming mainstream where it's becoming 132:33 the you know the thing that is no longer 132:35 alternative although it's not what you 132:38 know maybe most people consider the norm 132:42 Santa Muerte differs very strongly from 132:46 a male interpretation of the Grim Reaper 132:49 yeah there's no I don't think there's 132:54 any loving male Grim Reaper's well I 132:56 guess actually no that's not true 132:59 Azazel you've got sick lela lela Waddell 133:07 the necrophile down in Louisiana 133:13 I think Wow well she runs like a like a 133:19 death cult 133:19 kind of thing but she's she's real open 133:22 about her practice and she feels that 133:25 she's got a relationship with the Angel 133:26 of Death who I think in her senses like 133:29 is a male presence you know so buddy I 133:32 mean that obviously didn't catch on but 133:34 I don't think we have like a huge at 133:37 least not publicly so but it definitely 133:41 done yes Santa Muerte doesn't have the 133:43 same kind of aggressive wow that's not I 133:46 don't know because she there's an 133:48 aggressiveness to it it's different 133:50 though yeah it's subtly different than a 133:52 male let me I'm thinking yeah the 133:54 thought that came to my mind is or at 133:56 least the elements of the Grim Reaper as 133:58 a male form is that you have a kind of 134:01 trickster persona and one who will play 134:03 games of either chance or skill with you 134:05 and then at the very end we'll just sort 134:08 of you know take you in a way that he 134:12 cashes in with a sort of industrial 134:15 indifference and that even though Santa 134:18 Muerte 134:15 indifference and that even though Santa 134:18 Muerte 134:19 the feminized version of this you know 134:22 does have a kind of neutrality and 134:24 indifference in the sense that Death 134:26 Comes to all she seems to enter in a way 134:30 where she's actually welcomed where in 134:32 the Grim Reaper even if it's the skull 134:34 on the desk of the thinker the 134:35 philosopher reflects on the skull subtly 134:40 different you know having the Grim 134:43 Reaper man in the room with you is kind 134:46 of a scary notion but having the Grim 134:48 Reaper woman in the room with you is 134:50 it's strangely hugely more calming and 134:55 welcoming as a reality I found at least 134:58 and the other thing he brought up which 135:00 I didn't expect was this talk about when 135:03 communing with Santa Muerte this idea of 135:08 silence how there's a silence and 135:10 there's vacant eyes but yet there's a 135:13 kind of transmission that's an on 135:15 transmission can you go into that yeah I 135:19 mean that was that was something that I 135:21 I came to through just trying to you 135:26 know access the tradition because it's 135:29 not the none of the textural materials 135:33 really effective for doing that and it's 135:36 really something that you've kind of got 135:38 to access because I mean if you look at 135:39 the the iconography is you have to work 135:44 with it's not it's not it's easily 135:46 decodable you know as most iconographic 135:51 symbolism because it's so simple in a 135:53 lot of ways so you know in some ways 135:57 comes out of like a very commercial 135:58 context but it gets such powerful you 136:02 know kind of results from the devotees 136:03 you know reactions and that but I found 136:07 that the only really effective way was 136:09 to actually you know get down in with 136:11 the iconography and actually kind of 136:13 relate to it and and work with it and 136:17 yeah there's a kind of silence there 136:20 which Dona kata talks about and it comes 136:23 up I think in the in a documentary that 136:25 you're you referenced earlier where a 136:29 guy's taking his kid to the Santa Muerte 136:32 right and you know the kid looks at the 136:34 thing and the guys explaining you know 136:36 this is this is my godmother this is 136:39 your godmother and all that stuff and 136:40 the kids reaction is like she's got 136:42 empty eyes you know she's got eyes so 136:45 but that struck me is really profound 136:48 you know because again it plays into the 136:50 concept of neutrality and all this stuff 136:52 it's a really powerful symbol with it 136:53 you know in that silence as well there 136:56 was something that don't okay to 136:57 mentioned which had been something that 136:59 came out of from Eve when I was was 137:02 looking at the iconography had kind of 137:04 gotten that sense and then Dominic ADA 137:06 said it as well that was sort 137:07 interpretation of it was the the silence 137:12 but the silence the answers you know in 137:14 a way that you know you kind of talked 137:17 about earlier that goes beyond you know 137:20 that you know it goes into that state of 137:23 non-being you know yeah it's it was 137:28 surprised I think that's one of the 137:30 other reasons why I was so struck by 137:31 this by Santa Muerte was that there was 137:35 an immediate dialog in the idea that 137:38 just one day you will look like this one 137:41 day you will be this I'm this right now 137:44 but one day you will be this - right 137:48 yeah had that you know Gnostic level of 137:51 of really a kind of profound acceptance 137:56 right there I mean and I and the other 137:58 thing that I wanted to mention about 138:00 looking at that documentary footage and 138:02 and some of the newsreel footage I've 138:04 been watching all of this good stuff 138:07 will be linked below by the way is that 138:09 you it's it's so strangely comforting 138:15 it's you know just this idea and the vid 138:19 to see it to see people talk to this 138:22 death icon which is supposed to 138:24 represent death the reality was 138:28 something that I wasn't able to 138:30 anticipate or prepare myself for the 138:34 emotional reaction to it because you 138:36 realize people will talk to all kinds of 138:38 fairies they'll talk to aliens they'll 138:40 talk to 138:41 they'll channel aliens they'll talk to 138:44 spirits they'll talk 138:45 - you know you know they'll talk to the 138:48 most obscure deities out there but very 138:50 very few will talk to death let alone 138:54 and adorned death one that one that is 138:57 actually I mean it's it's gonna sound 139:00 weird to people who haven't spent time 139:03 with this icon but it becomes like 139:06 profoundly beautiful in that in its just 139:10 utter reality that one will be this and 139:12 that one's speaking with it right now 139:14 yeah that I you know you've got like a 139:17 name like La Nina Bonita like the 139:19 beautiful girl you know diamond and 139:21 they're serious about that like you hear 139:23 the the devotees are very you know 139:26 explicit about the idea of how beautiful 139:28 she is and how you know look at this 139:30 beautiful powerful woman you know that 139:33 is death you know and and just like 139:36 lauding you know just the beauty and the 139:39 profundity of it and it's it is 139:41 interesting because you know no matter 139:43 what your association with it if you 139:47 don't dismiss it you know and you 139:49 actually spend time with the symbols it 139:53 does it takes on that that realization 139:55 you know and there is there's there's a 139:58 meditation where you meditate on 140:02 dissolving to a skeleton then the 140:04 skeleton disappears in life and that 140:07 that is there is a meditation tradition 140:09 based on that I don't know if it's 140:11 Taoist or Buddhist or what you know what 140:16 tradition that comes out of but there is 140:20 that there is that tradition there is 140:22 that meditation technique and what's 140:24 interesting is thing again you know with 140:26 the the idea that being confronted with 140:30 this symbol of death you're literally 140:33 confronted with death and then able to 140:34 have that relationship that goes back to 140:37 the ideas like the harrowing of how and 140:39 the prints going down to meet death and 140:41 that in looking at the iconography like 140:44 you described and you know this idea of 140:45 thats going to be me and that kind of 140:47 thing you have access to things very 140:51 similar to the you know the skeleton 140:55 meditation so 140:58 you know or there's there are Taoist 141:01 meditations like those meditations on 141:03 the skull and that kind of stuff so you 141:06 have within this folk tradition access 141:10 to some of the most sophisticated 141:11 contemplative traditions right simply in 141:15 the invitation to because a lot of the 141:17 stuff that gets missed when you know 141:21 let's say you go to a yoga class or 141:23 something like that 141:24 are you fully devoted in a loving way to 141:26 yoga usually hot not to yoga maybe to 141:29 getting it to getting healthy to get 141:31 whatever but not to yoga and if you go 141:34 and you go into that yoga class and I 141:35 like o meditate on this skull it's you 141:37 it's whatever you don't have that that 141:40 kind of relationship you may you may 141:42 access that but it's not necessarily 141:44 encouraged by the experience but when 141:46 you're faced with this figure and you 141:48 don't dismiss it and you have that 141:50 interaction with it there's an 141:52 invitation there to not worshiping 141:55 devotion but just a devotion of love to 141:58 this thing that is always with you you 142:01 know and it starts to speak on that 142:02 level and because of that it doesn't 142:06 have the artificial artificial 'ti that 142:09 yoga has and because it's so terrifying 142:10 because it's not necessarily an 142:12 initially Pleasant meditation or a 142:15 pleasant invitation to conversation with 142:20 an idea or a mat you know a 142:22 contemplation or a symbol set because it 142:26 has that unpleasantness if you go 142:27 through that it has a level of 142:30 engagement again that encourages a type 142:33 of relationship that's not the same as 142:36 if you just go to yoga class or if you 142:37 you know learn meditation or do you know 142:40 anything kind of self-willed you know 142:42 now that's great because it can take us 142:44 right into a psychedelic dialogue right 142:47 there because you can't talk about 142:48 transformation and yoga and 142:50 enlightenment and meditation without 142:52 bringing up a psychedelic component 142:55 right there 142:56 it's definitely is that the new the new 142:59 psychedelic era we cannot discuss any 143:03 form of we approaching altered states of 143:06 consciousness unless we in some way 143:08 address the psychedelic question because 143:10 we 143:11 out in the psychedelic era because of 143:14 terence mckenna's CIA a clap to thoughts 143:18 the whole society to pig yeah that's 143:21 what I heard I heard that this was all a 143:23 major con from the beginning to end and 143:26 that we and and that the whole like 143:28 ayahuasca situation is a front this it 143:33 doesn't have to do with the real power 143:34 the CIA wants you to hallucinate 143:36 yourself and together to make neither 143:38 the merge this the rumor around the 143:42 campfire right now is this yeah around 143:46 the glowing digital campfire that's 143:48 beyond Irving is spreading the bird on 143:50 the like well at the same time 143:54 supporting psychedelics there's some 143:58 there's some sort of amazing looping 144:01 paradox there which again is the 144:02 nitpicky detail weirdness that you can 144:04 kind of you know if you're a good 144:07 Discordian right you're real good 144:12 discarding that's so wonderful it's so 144:17 wonderful no I meant like just bringing 144:19 it up in the sense that you know yoga 144:21 Zen psyche Delia NASA MLK like all this 144:27 stuff kind of showed up at almost the 144:29 same time at least for the American 144:31 consciousness you know so it's it's not 144:33 to say that yeah yeah yeah yeah no but 144:36 it's just another it's just another you 144:38 know facet to this thing is that you you 144:39 can't knock it I mean cuz even even even 144:41 the even the Santa Muerte devotees 144:44 there's like classic to use marijuana as 144:47 a incense and an offering and to blow it 144:50 you know on this statue so I mean I just 144:52 wanted to bring that up and that's 144:54 another thing too that I think like 144:55 people in the u.s. like just don't seem 144:57 to react well to that yeah I mean like 145:01 obviously unless like the people are 145:03 smoking themselves like and then they 145:05 kind of rejoice for it but like they 145:07 don't react well I know there was one 145:09 there's one news program and I don't 145:13 know it was like I think it was like a 145:14 Travel Channel kind of thing and the guy 145:16 went down to look at the Santa Muerte 145:19 shrines 145:20 and he happened to be a guy who really 145:21 enjoyed cigars so as a juror 145:24 he was really kind of weirded out and 145:26 not to end the whole Santa Muerte thing 145:28 until he realized that he could be in a 145:31 sanctuary smoking a cigar blowing it on 145:34 the statue and that was considered a 145:36 devotional thing and then he kind of got 145:38 into it he was kind of like yeah I like 145:40 this you know yeah I would like that too 145:43 sorry you were saying oh no ya know I 145:46 mean so they that was in some ways that 145:48 can be a bond but I think most people 145:50 are kind of weirded out by that you know 145:52 that your people are especially like 145:54 cigarettes and stuff like that where you 145:55 know people are smoking cigarettes and 145:57 blowing it in their face and that's 146:00 sharing the cigarette with her that's 146:02 that's kind of a long tradition to the 146:04 tobacco and the dead and that in a lot 146:07 of Latin American traditions is very 146:08 probable so yeah I am I really like that 146:13 a lot and I could see why they call her 146:15 cabrona because she's like part of the 146:17 people part of the family like you're 146:18 not gonna hide things from her what you 146:20 like she likes that kind of thing you 146:23 know I mean especially if it's gonna be 146:24 you know something like cigarettes right 146:28 yeah exactly very down-to-earth you know 146:30 yeah that's that's the other thing is 146:32 that the discrimination that we see the 146:35 lack of discrimination that we see 146:38 around Santa Muerte Santa Muerte is 146:40 embraced by people who identify as 146:42 Catholics by people who do not identify 146:44 as Catholics by you know transgendered 146:50 persons prostitutes 146:55 you know people people in the sex 146:56 industry people in all kinds of people 146:58 in a you know in places where when you 147:01 approach the church as this person 147:03 you're turned away yeah yeah that was 147:06 the story of our Lee who's the shrine 147:09 holder in Queens right um you know she's 147:13 trans the Catholic I think the priest 147:16 actually told her during confession why 147:18 are you here you don't belong here and 147:21 she had some intense experiences where 147:23 she was fearful of I think a friend had 147:27 recommended that she petitioned and I 147:30 kind of Santa Muerte or take a picture 147:32 of Santa Muerte home with her or 147:34 something but she at first was afraid 147:36 and then 147:37 a kind of profound experience with it 147:39 and now she's the you know the Guardian 147:42 for the shrine in Queens so it's 147:46 definitely trans they have gay lesbian 147:51 bi trans definitely huge maybe not huge 147:58 I don't know it's hard to tell cuz it 147:59 there's real there's really no 148:00 statistics on the number of people who 148:02 follow it you know that's definitely a 148:05 prevalent part of the the cult of 148:08 eastern Mexico you know and probably a 148:11 bottom you know well she doesn't she 148:14 doesn't like push people away you can be 148:16 poor or rich or young or older or 148:19 whatever but the whole idea is that 148:21 death comes mother death will always 148:23 come the holy death will always come for 148:25 you so you don't have to worry what you 148:28 have to worry about is trying to have 148:31 some kind of happy death and what does 148:33 it mean for you to have a happy death 148:35 right now that brings us to I guess you 148:40 know how you can't you can't not look at 148:44 this this neutrality in a miracle work 148:47 that you find with the Santa Muerte 148:49 without kind of bumping into the classic 148:53 latin maxim of tenant NOS or no sei's 148:56 know thyself and through this kind of 148:59 wish magic you get a kind of mirror 149:02 image of your soul because whatever you 149:04 ask of Santa Muerte is gonna directly 149:07 reflect the quality of your 149:09 consciousness where you are as a being 149:11 developed and so on and and your honesty 149:14 which we also see back with the 149:15 marijuana and the cigarettes is that 149:17 this is a kind of honest deity that you 149:19 don't have to play games with you know 149:22 this the the transaction seems pretty 149:25 simple is that if you do something for 149:27 it it'll do something for you and you 149:29 can be whatever you are because she is 149:31 always arriving or always here right but 149:35 the with the with the same like you can 149:37 you will do something for her a lot of 149:39 that is pretty intense in some sense 149:43 where you know people promise sections 149:45 of their skin to it you know so 149:49 a lot of the tattoos that come out of 149:52 the tradition are there for prayer that 149:55 was granted so the person dedicated that 149:57 portion of their flesh to Santa Muerte 150:01 you know so in that sense the give and 150:04 take is you know it can be pretty 150:05 extreme they can you know up here that 150:08 with another you know kind of lost in 150:11 translation thing is the idea of like 150:13 the level of what a gift to Santa Muerte 150:16 can be well you know that's funny that 150:19 it just it just brings it just brought 150:21 something to my mind is that the more 150:23 the more one petitions and does these 150:25 transactions with Santa Muerte and has 150:28 positive results the more holy death you 150:31 will find in the world in the form of 150:33 icons altars images t-shirts statues 150:38 tattoos you will or poems or 150:41 what-have-you or whatever it's gonna be 150:42 is that the more centum where I take 150:45 works the more Santa Muerte will take 150:49 over our world yeah that's a good boy 150:52 that's a good that's a very good point 150:54 yeah yeah and the barometer is rather 150:57 striking because from the statistics I 151:00 got from your colleague it's something 151:02 like 10 million people as I mentioned 151:05 from Chile to Canada yeah and there's no 151:08 way to tell really fully I mean the the 151:12 the commercial stuff may be an indicator 151:16 that botanicals are some became Samba 151:21 tanika's in LA in that are reporting up 151:23 to fit like 50% of their income comes 151:25 from Santa Muerte 151:27 so enough to keep open a store I'm about 151:31 to recommend to all my friends who have 151:34 spiritually based shops that he should 151:37 really stock up on Santa Muerte stuff 151:39 because I mean you know I want to buy it 151:41 I want to shit you know it's a very 151:43 potent platform obviously I mean even 151:46 just for me as like a totally novice 151:49 gringo who just bumped into this thing 151:51 thanks to you it's like wow the okay 151:54 going back to what I was going to say 151:56 about the psychedelics is that the 151:58 reason why I harped on it was because of 152:00 the trance 152:02 that suppose it right I think it's 152:04 legitimate right because you see like 152:06 Columbia University doing work with 152:08 psilocybin and cancer patients facing 152:10 death anxiety Accenture I think it was 152:12 Columbia Bay have been in New York 152:13 another New York institution but I know 152:15 it was something very prestigious like 152:17 that but this idea that you know when 152:21 one focuses it on an icon or a deity or 152:24 a goddess or something like that 152:27 generally though not exclusively I think 152:30 we find that it has to do it there's 152:31 always this element especially in 152:33 religion and philosophy and whatnot you 152:35 know of the transformation and that one 152:39 has a relationship with an icon or a 152:42 text a scripture a Dharma or 152:44 what-have-you 152:45 where a relationship is being fostered 152:48 and you know I'm in my own case when I 152:50 was younger of course you know ravaged 152:53 by hormones and my teens Buddhism made 152:55 like a lot of sense because it was like 152:56 oh you just calm down man you just chill 152:59 out 152:59 hey you just look like this just be a 153:01 dude man just be a dude but you know in 153:04 later years of course like you get into 153:06 it and so like the desired thing goes 153:08 out the window 153:09 but the you're like ya know let's ride 153:12 this snake fuck it yeah sorry 153:15 excuse me excuse me but I wonder if I'll 153:20 keep that in but the the this this like 153:27 well you know for me personally as an 153:30 icon I can appreciate a figure like 153:33 Christ and esoteric and mystical kind of 153:37 sense in the standard sort of Protestant 153:39 or Catholic version it kind of falls 153:42 flat for me but when you look at them as 153:44 like you know the magician archetype or 153:46 something like that it becomes more 153:47 attractive or as one half of the 153:49 alchemical process with Mary then that 153:52 becomes kind of attractive as well but 153:55 generally it doesn't really do much for 153:56 me icons don't really do it for me 153:58 they're kind of fun to experiment with 153:59 but they don't really do it for me I 154:01 don't feel them like transforming me 154:03 they're appealing for a while and then I 154:04 kind of dropped them with my initial 154:09 reaction with Santa Muerte is like this 154:12 could really do serious good 154:16 transformative work and that's why I 154:17 brought up like the psychedelics for 154:19 example where it's if you have a 154:22 relationship with this thing it feels 154:24 like and from the testimony I'm seeing 154:26 coming out of the Spanish community is 154:29 that it looks like that that this is 154:32 working it's working for them and it's 154:35 spreading so I mean that was something 154:39 like let's can you talk about like the 154:41 transformative element of associating 154:44 with this thing well and also I think 154:45 you know it's interesting when we see 154:50 the the iconography kind of come out in 154:53 the commercial products that most people 154:55 are seeing in the US and they if you go 154:57 on like at sea or Amazon t-shirts are a 155:00 lot of like Katrina Calavera influence 155:03 Day of the Dead kind of stuff but when 155:07 you look at the devotees pages on 155:10 Facebook and that there's a ton of 155:13 psychedelic artwork like really weird 155:15 collages like really like like birthday 155:19 balloons and like like confetti with 155:23 like Santa Muerte and a birthday cake 155:24 and stuff you know with like a thank you 155:27 it's you know and it was another thing 155:30 where the my first thought I was like 155:31 the hell is this you know is this and 155:36 then I was I started to look at it and I 155:38 was like oh wow this is just somebody 155:40 who's so moved that they went into 155:43 Photoshop or whatever they had maybe not 155:45 even Photoshop like you know whatever 155:47 like plank right right this collage that 155:51 they spent enough time to literally cut 155:54 out the birthday cake and cut out the 155:55 Santa Muerte statue picture and put it 155:58 into this collage with a thank you on it 156:01 and blast that to the public as a thank 156:04 you with no signature or anything but I 156:06 if you think about it like that's you 156:08 know the cutting and stuff like that 156:10 that's a good half hour to an hour or 156:12 more work depending on how good you are 156:14 with those you know digital tools and to 156:19 do that as a thank you to Santa Muerte 156:20 and to also have it be so innocent you 156:24 know that it's like a birthday cake with 156:26 some balloons and 156:27 the Santa Muerte statue um that was 156:31 amazing to me but the colors are like 156:33 incredible and you know they've she's 156:35 like floating in space and there's like 156:37 asteroids behind her it's like these 156:40 really intense collages all this you 156:42 know different really kind of 156:44 psychedelic artwork 156:45 you know so she kind of has that aspect 156:48 just and encountering her you know that 156:51 very colorful transformative very 156:54 vibrant and lively yeah I mean you look 156:56 at like the dough Nikita's son makes 157:00 wigs for the thing that's where one of 157:03 the Linea Bonita the the pretty girl is 157:06 usually associated at least around the 157:09 Tepito area with the santa muerte 157:11 statues that have wigs on to make her 157:14 pretty you know so there's there's just 157:18 this amazing aspect to it that I think 157:20 you know if you think about putting a 157:23 wig on a scalp chance that feud that 157:25 something of a psychedelic experience 157:27 they're like there's something kind of 157:29 hallucinatory about that something some 157:32 kind of announcement you know the word 157:34 psychedelic comes from like announcement 157:36 of the mine right now and when you're 157:38 putting the wig on a skeleton their mind 157:40 is announcing something beautiful dig 157:42 there's an announcement from the psyche 157:44 happening right there so I think yet 157:48 definitely just the devotions itself 157:50 have kind of a special e I mean for you 157:54 know we keep I don't even know how to 157:56 term it's a us or whatever I mean it's 157:59 such a diverse you know there's really 158:01 no generalities you can make butter I 158:03 would think that the majority of the 158:05 people in the u.s. to put a wig on the 158:07 skeleton for them would be somewhat home 158:11 you stand for take them out of their 158:13 normal state of being and give them some 158:16 no questions especially if they did it 158:17 in love you know maybe that's the whole 158:22 take home for this whole conversation we 158:25 when all said and done 158:27 find yourself a skeleton put a wig on it 158:30 love it and see what happens you know 158:33 just if you want to go the Santa Muerte 158:35 route that's probably the recommended 158:36 way because there's some kind of 158:37 traditional basis there 158:39 makes it a little bit safer and you're 158:41 not gonna get super weird with it but 158:43 like maybe just the wig in the skeleton 158:47 would be enough for most people in the 158:48 United States to get them out of the the 158:51 general technological mass media digital 158:54 make like a slipper and you know oh my 158:58 god oh man thank you one what the other 159:06 thing on on just the because I mean I 159:08 imagine and you know yeah we can skirt 159:11 it if if you'd like but I I imagine for 159:14 your case since you're spending so much 159:16 time on it you're running the website 159:18 skeleton st. and you're working with our 159:22 Android chestnut right now and it looks 159:25 like a lot of like literature material 159:28 and media could come out of this thing 159:30 that I mean I could imagine my I see 159:33 myself spending time I mean there was 159:35 times where I was kind of interested in 159:36 like well let's see like look at the 159:38 Golden Dawn let's take a look at the 159:40 Lima let's take a look at you know you 159:42 know Peter Carroll and these kind of 159:44 guys with sort of methodologies and 159:45 modalities and ideas are they playing 159:47 with and you know it just kind of feels 159:49 like a tangled web of you know just 159:52 stolen stuff not that that's a bad thing 159:54 not that it doesn't have effect but when 159:57 you when I you know spent time looking 159:59 at this Santa Muerte figure it was just 160:02 like you could feel that could feel the 160:05 change already happening and the kind of 160:08 the funniest things I like the most 160:10 anecdotal example I can give is that I 160:12 have a door in my room that creaks to 160:16 high heaven and it's the most unnerving 160:18 creak that you can hear you know I've 160:23 had people in my house like where their 160:24 hair raises because I got a window open 160:26 and my door creaks I mean it's just bad 160:28 it's just this bat and whenever it 160:30 creaks I always get up and close the 160:32 door entirely this is like a tick I've 160:35 had for years ever since I've had this a 160:37 door in my life I have been closing it 160:39 because it's just not a cool sound 160:42 it feels really bad like whenever you 160:45 hear whenever you hear this door creak 160:47 you feel like anything could be on the 160:49 other side and it's totally legitimate I 160:50 don't care 160:51 like what world you live in but here 160:53 this Creek it feels like it's announcing 160:56 you know the horror of the deep yeah get 161:00 ready but as I'm looking and I'm telling 161:03 you this is a tick this is something 161:04 I've always always always done and yet 161:08 last night when I'm looking at the same 161:10 time where it Santa Muerte material no 161:13 kidding 161:13 my door creaks and I let it go and I let 161:18 it go for like 20 minutes and it creaks 161:20 and since I always close the door 161:22 it creaked in new ways because I'm 161:26 always like shot up close the door but 161:28 this time I like let it open because I 161:30 was literally feeling the fear and 161:32 feeling it Milt just from looking at 161:36 this icon the Santa Muerte and as it was 161:39 melting I'm not even kidding the door 161:41 took on this new dynamic range of 161:44 creaking that I previously had no idea 161:47 was capable of and it was much more 161:48 sinister and horrible sounding like it 161:51 was just John Carpenter at the door you 161:53 know well that's great though cuz that's 161:55 like you know people pay to go to noise 162:00 performances that probably aren't as 162:02 evocative as you through Santa Muerte 162:06 were able to have an experience last 162:08 night that was probably someone's like 162:11 dream in Berlin or something you know 162:14 you or you were able to experience a 162:16 symphony that no one has heard the 162:18 private performance by the elements you 162:22 know it's it's funny you mention it 162:24 because I have there's been I got really 162:26 attached to my house here in New Jersey 162:28 probably more so than I should but for a 162:31 while there's a threat that like 162:33 everyone we're moving out you know that 162:35 happens every couple of years and it 162:36 turns out we're not and what I always 162:38 wanted to do is create an experimental 162:40 album called house music where I'd put 162:42 like a microphone in each room and 162:45 record it for several hours and then put 162:47 together like a 18 hour long album 162:49 called house music like this is what the 162:50 basement sounds like this is what my 162:52 creaky door sounds like it might come 162:57 out one day yeah inspired by Santa 163:00 Muerte you'll have to give a thanks in 163:02 there Oh she'll be on the cover 163:04 she'll be on the cover of a lot of my 163:05 stuff right now my fucking Facebook is 163:07 already covered by well that was that 163:13 Matt's tags the editor for dissing Co 163:16 well when I think I was up in Chicago 163:21 from Georgia and I've been researching 163:25 for I think two days straight and it was 163:28 just I I had I had a ton of stuff to do 163:31 and I was presenting somewhere and I had 163:33 to do a bunch of stuff so I was I was it 163:36 was over stressed like overtired and I 163:38 was researching Santa Muerte and you 163:41 know I was struggling through the 163:42 translations on the Spanish and I like 163:45 broke the point where I was like I don't 163:47 even care that I can't read Spanish I'm 163:49 just gonna read it you know right and so 163:51 I was able to read more than I had been 163:55 before when I was struggling with it 163:56 which was awesome so I started doing 163:58 more translations than that and I 164:00 started posting that you know links to 164:04 some of the stuff that I was finding but 164:05 I was posting it in Spanish and like 164:07 posting quotes from some of the prayers 164:09 and that and Matt's tags from disinfo 164:12 sent me a note and he was like are you 164:13 okay going insane because it was all 164:17 this escapes like all these skeleton 164:20 yours and then like you know Holmes 164:22 about love of the Grim Reaper and that 164:25 you know like all this great stuff that 164:26 I was finding and that was like I'm kind 164:29 of concerned by like what's going on you 164:32 know and I didn't know you was serious 164:34 because I was excited you know so I was 164:36 started quoting back to him in Spanish 164:38 it was exciting and then he got like 164:40 really concerned and so yeah it can 164:43 definitely it can take you know 164:46 definitely because it's so it is so 164:48 potent and it is it is once you get into 164:51 it I know I've been joking and stuff 164:53 like that but it's a beautiful tradition 164:54 you know so I think yeah I don't know it 165:00 definitely has that ability to kind of 165:01 skirt and yeah there was a joke earlier 165:04 where David said that he was someone 165:07 someone was concerned that maybe he'd 165:09 drunk drank the Santa Muerte kool-aid 165:11 and I told him I was already swimming in 165:13 a pool of it so we should probably do an 165:16 interview 165:18 yeah no it's in also you know if you got 165:21 the editor of disinfo asking you if 165:23 you're okay okay as you're frantically 165:27 posting you know tons of Santa Muerte 165:29 information yeah you know and that's 165:32 that's how people react to it though I 165:33 mean you know people are on people who 165:35 you would not think are really unnerved 165:38 by the whole thing just because of the 165:41 iconography and kind of how it's been 165:43 portrayed in the media people get real 165:45 uncomfortable if they don't have a good 165:47 explanation for it you know and 165:49 something I was gonna talk about with 165:50 the potency to you'd mentioned you know 165:54 coming from like the Golden Dawn and 165:55 chaos magic and that kind of stuff sure 165:58 um 165:59 again something that I don't think you 166:02 know it's possible here in the US to 166:03 access it still I mean there's still art 166:06 folk traditions that are alive in that 166:07 but most people who are looking at magic 166:09 or the occult and that kind of thing 166:10 aren't going to where the folk 166:12 traditions exist that's right when you 166:15 encounter Santa Muerte 166:16 you know you encounter it in the u.s. 166:18 through kind of like the ax culture so 166:20 it seems like one thing and then when 166:22 you start to tap in deeper you it's not 166:24 you know because it's actually a 166:25 tradition it's a faith tradition it's a 166:27 devotional tradition this isn't a 166:29 magical system or you know in the way 166:31 that we would think of it or you know 166:35 this isn't somebody you like going back 166:37 to folklore and kind of building 166:39 something like this is literally a 166:41 tradition that has grown from the ground 166:44 up you know and for whatever influences 166:46 folklore and that kind of stuff and 166:48 academics and that have had on it it's 166:51 very much a true folk tradition so when 166:56 you encounter it you're not just 166:57 encountering an idea second hand or 167:00 third hand or whatever and kind of 167:02 reworked for the society right you're 167:04 really encountering a living tradition 167:06 that's still in the really interesting 167:09 thing about it is that it's still in 167:12 development so you're encountering a you 167:15 know a living faith tradition that has 167:18 come from the ground up it's come from 167:20 very very raw elements of you know 167:23 symbolism in that very potent potentials 167:26 still growing still developing and 167:29 inviting 167:30 people to engage it you know so it's a 167:33 different feeling than coming to you 167:36 know something like the golden dawn or 167:38 you know chaos magic or something like 167:40 that 167:41 right where those are kind of either 167:43 they're established or there's a certain 167:46 rules and play that one builds with or 167:49 uses this is really more like really 167:52 dealing with an actual and I love that 167:54 we're bringing up devotional where it's 167:56 like no you have a devotional 167:58 relationship with death as process and 168:01 it's been it's it's this female version 168:04 of it which grants wishes and whatnot 168:07 but that's what you're having a 168:08 relationship with it makes me wonder 168:10 this is it's so decentralized which is 168:12 one of the other reasons why I'm so 168:13 excited about it is because it's truly 168:16 avant-garde it's truly the avant-garde 168:20 spirituality that all right that I'm 168:22 aware of at least right now at least 168:23 it's far more avant-garde than you know 168:26 and I'm not trying to knock people down 168:28 but we were having a me and you know one 168:33 of the one of the people who's 168:35 associated with one of Crowley's 168:38 spiritual systems were joking about 168:40 peaches the model or the actress who was 168:42 coming out saying like I love the öto 168:44 the oto is great and we were saying like 168:46 well she may have done more for thelema 168:48 and Crowley did right there in that 168:49 moment but just as kind of like a joke 168:52 but on the side here the idea that no 168:55 this isn't a system this is you working 168:57 with this entity it's like entity work 169:00 and in a way at least that's what I want 169:02 to call it so because of that what do 169:06 you have to say about any kind of texts 169:08 or squares or prayers or things that are 169:12 coming out because like you said it's 169:14 it's being born right now and it might 169:16 start - it might it might not be but it 169:19 might become less potent once it becomes 169:22 organized in a way I mean I mean well I 169:25 you know it would be hard to see it 169:28 becoming organized um simply because 169:32 right now I mean if you if you look at I 169:34 don't think they'll ever be like an 169:36 Orthodox Church of Santa Muerte you know 169:39 and if you look at the way that it's 169:41 going right now in terms of 169:44 Church structure all the different 169:47 sanctuaries and shrines in that they all 169:49 have different very very strong 169:51 personalities that run them and take 169:54 care of them 169:55 and the each shrine has its own history 169:58 and each of the people that are shrine 170:00 holders have their own very potent 170:02 histories so it's very much related to 170:07 the communities that she comes up in and 170:09 the people who feel devoted enough to 170:13 create a shrine and in their stories you 170:16 know it's very because again the 170:18 accountant graphing in symbolism and 170:20 there's no there's no origin man there's 170:22 no backstory to it there's no you know 170:28 account of a birth and you know whatever 170:30 there simply is Santa Muerte 170:32 and so you know and we can go back into 170:36 historical and you know things that led 170:38 into it but as a tradition there's no 170:40 origin myth you know the Devi shrine 170:43 holder kind of has a different story for 170:44 what's in where take came from and you 170:47 know how that how the iconographic 170:48 developed so with that I don't think 170:54 they'll ever be a centralization you 170:57 know it's a very almost you know I need 171:00 if you look at the the one time you'd 171:01 mentioned the bulldozing of the the 171:03 shrines on the border right that came 171:06 right after or right around the time 171:08 that David Romo who was the Archbishop 171:13 of the Santa Muerte Church in Mexico he 171:20 got he got okayed by the Mexican 171:24 government you know he got the okay to 171:26 be an official Church he got like the 171:27 official sanction and he then proceeded 171:31 to declare a holy war on the Catholic 171:35 Church all out like the current 171:38 president what the the bulldozing of 171:41 those shrines like in a way was also the 171:44 action to what was going on because of 171:46 the centralization of Santa Muerte into 171:49 this very contentious thing whereas now 171:53 most of the shrine holders don't get 171:55 that political with this stuff at all 171:57 so even in terms of the Catholic Church 171:59 and that they're very careful about how 172:01 they talk about things so and they don't 172:05 really necessarily have rivalries and 172:09 they don't really necessarily have 172:11 connections other than that they're all 172:15 with you know they're all practicing 172:17 this devotion to Santa Muerte and like I 172:20 said each of them have a different story 172:22 you know la madrina Vargas 172:26 whose holds the shrine that has the 172:29 largest Santa Muerte statue her son was 172:33 a devotee and she was a devout Catholic 172:37 her son was killed under questionable 172:39 circumstances and I think he had a 172:42 hundred or so bullets in his body when 172:44 they found him Wow um so she bowed to 172:48 Santa Muerte that although she was a 172:50 faithful Catholic if Santa Muerte 172:52 granted her vengeance for her son's 172:54 death that she would she would you know 172:59 pay that back by running the shrine and 173:01 keeping it going 173:02 and by bringing Santa Muerte sneem into 173:04 the public so a couple months passed 173:09 she felt that that had been fulfilled 173:11 and so now today she's the shrine holder 173:15 for that shrine and she holds you know 173:17 the mass I don't know she holds masses 173:18 but shield services and you know has a 173:23 has a Facebook presence and is a you 173:26 know a big centralizing factor for that 173:29 community that community you know she's 173:31 always talking about community issues 173:34 about missing children's reports you 173:38 know who needs how what's going on so 173:41 she's very active in the community 173:42 through the presence of Santa Muerte 173:44 Dona que de has the Santa Muerte shrine 173:48 and she's known you know people come to 173:50 her for advice and stuff like that so 173:53 she's very much community leader there 173:55 so really what you see instead of 173:57 centralization is you see kind of 174:01 communities centralizing around 174:03 themselves around the figure of Santa 174:06 Muerte there's this neutral ground 174:08 you know so that 174:10 hopefully as it grows I mean the 174:12 question is is because a lot of what I'm 174:14 seeing is that the second that it comes 174:18 into the United States the commercial 174:19 elements start to like really explode 174:21 and then you also start to have 174:23 conversations with really strong social 174:28 faith traditions you know in like scenes 174:31 and stuff like that that start to try to 174:33 appropriate parts of it so it'll be 174:35 interesting to see what that you know as 174:37 because even you know starting to get 174:40 out to Europe and stuff like that like 174:41 the products a lot of the products that 174:44 are sold are made in China you know so 174:46 there's a presence and shops in like 174:48 Hong Kong and that so it'll be 174:51 interesting to see what happens when she 174:54 goes to international and yeah maybe 174:58 loses some of the community centeredness 174:59 of the tradition there's two things I 175:02 would like to mention from that and one 175:03 of them is this was a hot article when 175:06 it came out but that there was a vey vey 175:09 an American Apparel in New York City and 175:11 for those of you who don't know if Vevey 175:13 is a traditional who do sort of like 175:16 symbol portal magical symbol thing and 175:19 it was right in the middle of this in 175:22 the it wasn't you know baby is food ooh 175:25 it's the the gate for the gods that's 175:28 like the gods signature that's like one 175:30 of a sacred like you know aspects of the 175:34 ritual and here it that represents the 175:36 low you know right the lower exactly 175:39 exactly and so here it is in the front 175:41 display window of this New York City 175:44 American Apparel store and you know you 175:48 can't help but look at it and go like 175:50 you know in my case like ah damn you 175:54 know it's just kind of like and it was 175:56 the it was the I don't know the name of 175:58 the law yet but the one that guarded the 176:00 crossroads the Crossroads lower leg row 176:03 yeah and here it is there the other 176:07 thing that you just brought to mind 176:08 which is what we're doing right now and 176:11 I didn't realize it but this is the 176:13 whole folk religion element of it is 176:16 that it is decentralized what happens 176:19 you have an entity or a force or a 176:22 practice or something 176:24 people engage it and then they get 176:25 together and this is what all the 176:27 documentary stuff I've been seeing is 176:28 people get together and they start 176:30 telling stories about what their 176:33 experience with this thing was right 176:36 yeah exactly yeah if you think about a 176:38 lot of yeah most of the media out there 176:41 is the anecdotes and what you don't see 176:44 in the other thing that's interesting to 176:46 you that's earlier about what you know 176:47 resources and that kind of stuff yeah I 176:51 can only think about a handful of books 176:54 in English honored um almost all of the 176:56 materials in Spanish so if you don't 176:59 know Spanish or you're not willing to 177:00 like dive in there and learn the Spanish 177:04 there's really not much out there in 177:06 terms of the resources other than the 177:08 statues in the visual you know the kind 177:10 of artistic visual stuff but when you do 177:17 actually look at the Spanish material a 177:18 lot of it there's a book called legends 177:21 of Santa Muerte which are anecdotes and 177:25 stories around around people's 177:27 experiences either fictional or real 177:30 regarding their experiences with Santa 177:32 Muerte and a lot of the devotion to 177:36 Santa Muerte magazine is based around 177:39 people's stories so yeah you're right I 177:42 mean that's a huge part of this this 177:44 tradition at any folk tradition is 177:45 telling those stories about what the 177:47 gods of Donder in this instance what you 177:50 know Santa Muerte has done what death 177:51 has done for you in the same way like 177:53 what do we do naturally even if death 177:56 isn't personified in this way as it is 177:58 with Santa Muerte but we tend to get 178:00 together and talk about those who died 178:02 times where we almost died what do we 178:05 think about dying and you can't help but 178:07 think of you know I think it was a 178:09 Cornel West talking about Plato what his 178:11 philosophy is philosophy is about how to 178:13 have a good death right yeah yeah holy 178:18 holy death a good and all that well we 178:22 passed the three-hour mark which I was 178:24 hoping we would and we might do this 178:26 again but David what's going on with you 178:29 right now and the skeleton st. and 178:31 liminal analytics and all this goodness 178:34 right now I'm so 178:36 defying the project with Shannon Taggart 178:38 where we're putting on those talks we 178:42 recently hosted Stanley krepner to talk 178:45 about his dream telepathy stuff the 178:48 experiments they did in the 60s and 70s 178:51 in Brooklyn and we're solidifying that 178:55 into a new project that's gonna focus on 178:58 material evidence of immaterial things 179:01 so how do you know these kind of 179:04 imaginal complexes appear in our world 179:06 through material objects and those and 179:11 then two upcoming webinars one is on psy 179:16 which I'm co-hosting with Craig Wyler 179:18 for Evolver and then another one on 179:22 sacred geometry it's gonna be our second 179:24 sacred geometry webinar that I'm gonna 179:27 be co-hosting with Scott holes so those 179:32 are coming up and the details are not as 179:35 of yet final but those should be 179:38 appearing on the revolver website soon 179:40 how about you and re-injure chestnut and 179:43 Santa Muerte that's ongoing so we try to 179:47 post as often as we can my twitter feed 179:50 is usually filled up with it with links 179:53 and that most holy death on Twitter is 179:57 the feed that we run to cover the Santa 180:00 Muerte stuff and then Andrew Chestnut 180:03 one is Andrews Twitter feed and yeah 180:09 we're basically at this point I mean 180:11 we're just kind of covering it as we can 180:13 through the website and through articles 180:15 on Huffington Post and just trying to 180:20 stay on top of the tradition and get 180:22 people aware of it outside of the kind 180:25 of sensationalist media or you know 180:30 negative media that's surrounding it 180:32 trying to get a more neutral viewpoint 180:34 out there and I got I got a personally 180:36 thank you for that because you know 180:39 Santa Muerte was totally alien to me it 180:41 made no sense I was averted to it 180:45 and then after you know really diving 180:47 into catching up with your work with a 180:49 because I was curious about it and I 180:51 didn't get it catching up with your work 180:54 I can't wait to read Andrews book I 180:57 can't wait to check out the documentary 180:59 and all this kind of stuff because it's 181:01 it's it's got my attention in a way that 181:04 I didn't anticipate and you know I'm 181:07 learning Spanish very slowly right now I 181:11 think it's great yeah it's a great 181:12 opportunity I tried on skeleton snake to 181:14 keep as much Spanish in there as I can 181:16 just to encourage people to kind of 181:18 engage that because we do live in 181:20 America and surprisingly South America 181:24 and Mexico are American countries we 181:30 should we learn Spanish you know well I 181:34 noticed talking because I noticed that 181:37 sort of talking or thinking about Santa 181:40 Muerte in English sort of doesn't feel 181:43 right and usually I'm not one of those 181:45 people who are like no do it in the 181:47 original language do it in the Latin man 181:49 but let's talk about Santa Muerte in 181:53 Spanish yes I think that doesn't really 181:57 cover what she is so yeah it doesn't 181:59 have the same kind of resonance but it's 182:02 I mean that's true though because I mean 182:03 if the roots are different you know it's 182:05 some of the words are the same but 182:07 there's a different kind of intonation 182:08 there's a different feeling to it when 182:11 you learn different languages so you 182:12 learn a different way of thinking while 182:15 I was looking at I couldn't help but 182:17 remember I forgot who said it maybe is 182:19 Oscar Wilde but then there's always that 182:20 quote every quote eventually gets 182:22 attributed to Oscar Wilde which is when 182:26 you have may have been Goethe but when 182:28 you when you know more than one language 182:31 you have more than one soul and that and 182:34 that felt really really true when I was 182:36 speaking Spanish last night exactly when 182:39 Spanish was coming to you through Santa 182:41 Muerte is uh skeletal passage 182:44 yeah man well it's beautiful slugger one 182:48 more thing to with the alchemy stuff 182:49 let's do it david m smith is coming out 182:53 with a book blazing do have stars and i 182:57 think that if people are serious about 182:59 alchemy kabbalah contemplative work 183:04 meditation what have you 183:08 David hem Smith's work is like Santa 183:11 Muerte part of the living tradition and 183:13 very real so you know talking about 183:17 alchemy earlier if people are interested 183:20 his new book blazing to have stars from 183:22 what he's told me 183:23 it is the first time that he's really 183:27 opened up fully as much as as he has 183:31 about his practice so that book I can 183:37 not highly recommend enough 183:39 yeah David's David's illustration is is 183:44 so good that the instant I feel kind of 183:49 bad this in retrospect but I'm always 183:51 wondering like hey that would look great 183:52 on a t-shirt but you know I that was 183:56 like my first message to one Facebook 183:58 was like I put this on a t-shirt he was 184:00 like absolutely not know where it man 184:03 and I think it was the Yahweh one where 184:06 it's just Yahweh over and over and over 184:08 again and it looks like um it's like the 184:10 most beautiful so of course like that 184:14 was you know so many others you know 184:21 that's awesome 184:22 ya know those are those are for t-shirts 184:26 not not for commercial consumption like 184:29 that now but yeah let's see yeah you 184:31 reacted to that because it I mean 184:33 they're they're potent his drawing is 184:35 beautiful aesthetically but you know 184:39 when you actually read what is going on 184:41 in those drawings and the the concepts 184:44 behind it and his practice and what he's 184:46 doing to get to those drawings it's 184:49 accessing a whole new level of 184:51 understanding of this stuff so yeah it's 184:55 potent potent stuff I don't you know 184:58 it's not everybody's bag it is it is 185:00 contemplative it's not you know not 185:03 necessarily practical stuff but you know 185:06 as a as a contemporary contemplative 185:09 practitioner his stuff is kind of 185:16 up you there hello oh hey come on back I 185:25 think I gotcha 185:26 yeah you said his stuff is kind of oh 185:29 this stuff is beyond compare I would say 185:32 with anything else out there you know 185:35 and one last thing is that you brought 185:37 to mind is that the big thing with Santa 185:39 Muerte that I realized is that it is 185:41 both contemplative and practical and 185:44 immediate and visceral and existential 185:47 and just happening yeah I think that's 185:52 yeah that is true that's a good that's a 185:54 good capstone I think it's best half 185:57 yeah 185:58 David thank you thank you so much for 186:01 your contribution not just to this but 186:03 to what you proliferate on the internet 186:05 and in text and whatnot and I'm always 186:07 looking for more of it and I can't wait 186:09 to do this again 186:10 yeah dude well thank you sir and thank 186:13 you for what you do and covering all 186:14 that stuff you've got quite a media 186:16 thing going too so don't short sell that 186:19 that's all good thank you thank you 186:21 thank you and to everyone check out the 186:24 description because I'm gonna try and 186:26 make this thing as definitive as 186:28 possible we're gonna drop a lot of links 186:29 and you may find a little George or the 186:33 Thurgood Arthur well oh yeah yeah yeah 186:37 you may find George Thorogood and a 186:38 little Captain Beefheart down there so 186:40 enjoy it I know it's not traditional 186:43 Santa Muerte music but it's our spin on 186:47 it let's take Cara Lee you too thanks 186:56 [Music] 187:17 [Music] 187:20 you 187:23 [Music]

Joker stoked the flames that were already there from the top 1% "chads" experiencing pleasures you cannot imagine, while those at the bottom suffer from so many problems at the same time, just avoiding suicide taking a lot of willpower out of them, facing problems that everyone else thinks define their personality and flaws, when they weren't caused by them at all

Why commit suicide? Meditate on the reason, get to the root of the desire. What answers do you find? Don't answer with your intellect. Is it because you're unhappy with your current self? Not living according to your values? Then the suicidal drive is a call to growth. Is it aggression towards yourself? Is it out of strong kleshas? Which ones? Is it because you're suffering too much? If so, why are you suffering? Is there another way out?

I'm soon going to make a long and probably quite a controversial topic on the notion of suicide, or suicidality. IU've worked on it already a bit, but I'm not done yet. Right now I'm busy with other processes so it has stalled for a little bit, but it's probably going to come out in a couple of days. I have made a previous post on the topic of suicidality some two years ago, which I will link you to. However: Note that this was two years ago that I had written this, and my understanding about suicide and suicidality has deepened significantly. I had a tremendous insight into the nature of suicidality almost a year ago. But I will give you the link anyways since it may still very wel help you. Read the rest of my reply though before you click the link. https://psychcentralforums.com/depression/494523-whats-point-potent-reasons-choose-life-over.html?fbclid=IwAR3tWuDHuDFT7OOAxaMkoK8RN3xPC164po7qQ2rXEK0EjPqc43wkbonkeAM The important difference as to regard with my understanding about suicide or suicidality then and my understanding about it now, is that I've completely veered off from the idea that suicide is something that needs to be prevented, something that is evil, something that is bad and you should not do. In my realization I had almost a year ago, I realized that there is actually nothing objectively bad about the decision to commit suicide. You inherently have the freedom to do so, and God or existence will not punish you for committing it. If you commit suicide, it is my feeling that you will end up in a new incarnation in which you then get to choose the ideal conditions for your next life, also having taken into account how you have acted (including your decision to commit suicide) in your previous life. I'm not saying you will necessarily be better off in your next life —as what has not been resolved in the previous life has to be resolved in the next one, or the one after, or the one after, or the one after... It all depends whenever you decide to choose to allow spirit to guide you instead of your ego-based identity. But... suicide won't make it worse also. The unconsciousness in which you allow yourself to be possessed by that moves you to the decision to commit suicide will make it worse, but it is my feeling that the very act of suicide itself is neither good or bad. It just is. Nobody or nothing is going to punish you for the decision to commit suicide. But the ego-mind which you had decided to cling to prior to the final act of self-imposed death will make a vengeance, as suicide has not permanently resolved its identification with it. But you may get a temporary relief up until the point that the ego-mind starts re-establishing itself in the next level you are going to play in the game called life. So the whole problem with trying to prevent others or ourselves from committing suicide is that we do not understand that the ultimate purpose of life is not about survival. Whether we decide to commit suicide or not is not essential. The ego doesn't permanently evaporate when we commit suicide, but for the same coin our ego also doesn't leave us if we persist in continuing in our ego-based struggles where we insist that we must survive life at every cost, even though our life may be an almost continuous torment. In fact, to insist that we must survive life at all costs is, if we really think about it in a clear objective way, simply an absolute insanity! Because life is not about survival! It's ultimate purpose is awakening, not survival! What's the point of merely trying to survive, trying to stay positive, trying to fend off reasons and feelings that seem to support quitting the game, and trying to find and attach ourselves to reasons that seem to support our continuation of the game? (In actuality, it is the level we're quitting, but most people believe they will quit the game altogether, which I feel is impossible). Now to answer your questions: Is suicide always unconscious or possibly justified at higher stages of development at a particular context? Good question. I have heard stories about sages willfully leaving their own body because they have decided that their work is done for that particular incarnation. The stories have said however that they don't leave the body by doing something crude like hanging themselves, but that they can consciously leave their body through leaving it through the navel, as so I've heard. So I think that indeed at higher stages it can be justified. In fact, even at lower levels of consciousness if you really focus your energy and will to succeed in this one goal of taking your own life, it is in a way of looking at it more justified or at least more respectable than those who end up committing suicide in a fit of desperation. I myself had a time where I had very willfully tried to focus my energies to take my own life, trying to make it a very conscious and deliberate act. As you can tell, I had not succeeded but I really tried to devote myself to doing it. It is my feeling that if I had had succeeded in taking my own life this same spirit of devotion would have greatly benefited my next life, as opposed to doing it in a sort of eruption of repressed suicidal feelings whilst in a fit of despair. I'm not saying I would have been better off had I committed suicide, and probably not worse also. But now it has turned out to be that I get to use this same spirit of devotion in my current incarnation. True and internalized understanding of the nature of suicidality however ceases to allow any feelings of suicidal despair to ever pervade your being again. And total understanding comes only with total acceptance. In other words: if you are capable of truly and fully accepting the idea that you would or could commit suicide, that you are completely okay with it towards yourself, you would not fear it nor resist it, and thereby paradoxically the whole suicidal desire dissipates. Therefore, my devotion of me trying to commit suicide was not total; there was still judgement and resistance. Because if it was total, I would have come to total peace with my decision to do it. And if I were to come to total peace, then who wants to commit suicide when he is completely peaceful? Then the whole idea seems absurd. People at very high stages of consciousness however can decide not out of despair but out of a simple, calm understanding that this life has been outlived and that they can choose to leave their body at will to go on to the next journey. Perhaps other older people who are not as consciously developed can choose not out of despair but out of tiredness that also they have been long enough in the body and that they want leave it. But I'm not really sure about it, though. Is there a time period of going through a form of hell for the ego mind/body that commits an unconscious form of suicide that settles one's energies in order for them to be able give birth to another form of existence? If so how long does it approximately last according to human time understanding? I can't really be entirely sure but I doubt it. Not after you're already dead, I feel. Or otherwise not very long after it. However, I have heard a guru that I have a lot of respect for say that whatever your emotional state is at the time of death, it will be magnified 100x more (don't take the number too literal; I doubt it's mathematically completely accurate). So if there's bliss at that moment, bliss will be magnified 100x more, and if there's anguish, it will be magnified 100x more. Perhaps it is accurate to say that whatever egoic patterns you're holding in your body-mind structure that has been developed throughout this incarnation will have to be evaporated within a very short time span in order to release your soul from the body (which means it will be very intense for a short period of time for it to be released), and then even more deeply embedded unconscious egoic patterns that have been ingrained in the soul-level you take with you to the next incarnation —whether these egoic patterns already existed in you from previous incarnations or were created in this incarnation. That's my feeling about it, but I'm not totally sure about it. Is there a hierarchical principle of stages of life achievements and personal development at which one dies or commits suicide that determine what will one reincarnate as in samsara after some time? For example if I kill myself now at 22 having not worked a day in my life and not contributing almost nothing to society and still having pretty bad habits of being lazy will I reincarnate for example as a simpler form of life a worm or some plant and how in that context does one through the process of samsara earn to become human again? I don't think you will ever devolve this far down the line, if devolution is at all possible to begin with. That, I doubt too. My understanding in this area has yet to grow further, though. Neither not contributing to society nor being lazy nor even killing yourself I think will create negative karma. Understand the difference between the act and the quality of which you're doing it by. No act in itself creates negative karma. Any act that may seem to be valuable or honorable by standards of society but is done from a place of ego WILL create negative karma. Karma is not a punishment also; It is you allowing yourself to get more entrenched in the egoic position and thereby creating more pain in the future for yourself as there is more egoic holding patterns you have created for yourself to be detached from, which is always inevitably painful. Your quality of consciousness decides what is righteous and what is not. If you commit yourself now to the lazy life —as I had to do too— you are ought to create many valuable traits within yourself that is associated with the particular polarity in which you are devoting yourself to. Laziness can, amongst other things, be a form of guarding your own space and rediscovering your inner truth. Later down the line when the pendelum swings you towards the polarity of activity, then all the assets you have learned during your phase of laziness will then be put to use. So you are now growing the roots so that later on the tree can blossom much more vividly.

Welp, I wasnt a depressed teen, but after being diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis at 21 yrs old I became depressed and terrified for my future. I was depressed on/off for almost 2 decades. I'm even a suicide survivor. It wasnt until after my attempt and then finding Eckhart Tolle in 2009 that things started to turn around. However, the MS had slowed down considerably when I was in my mid thirties, enough for me to go back to work (I had been on disability) and now 40's it's like I don't even have it. Seriously, you'd never know and last MRI few yrs ago showed my lesions were shrinking. Why? Dunno. Sooo, I can say, allowing your thoughts to create misery in your mind is 99% of any battle, imo. Try to do Self-inquiry and see that the thoughts aren't you. You can see them as not yours, unloading some misery for yourself.

It doesn't work like that. Your life right now is a consequence of an infinitely long and complex chain of events. Everything and everyone is your past reincarnation, for you're not an individual in the most fundamental level... you're the Universe itself living through many forms. I'll give you an example. Suppose that the father of a small boy commits suicide and the experience is so traumatic that the boy grows mentally disturbed. What if that disturbed adult has a child? It's very likely that the child will grow under the toxic influence of his/her disturbed father. And nobody in this tragic story is a reincarnation of someone in particular. Rather, they're all the same Entity living different perspectives, thinking that they are individuals.

How does one overcome, understand and face one's suicidal thoughts and tendencies in relation: 1. to regressing heavily in personal development 2. not being fully socially adapt and contributing in some ways daily to the rest of your society and 3. not holding to one's own set values dialy that correspond with personal life goal and purpose in relation to self and others Is suicide always unconscious or possibly justified at higher stages of development at a particular context? Is there a time period of going through a form of hell for the ego mind/body that commits an unconscious form of suicide that settles one's energies in order for them to be able give birth to another form of existence? If so how long does it approximately last according to human time understanding? Is there a hierarchical principle of stages of life achievements and personal development at which one dies or commits suicide that determine what will one reincarnate as in samsara after some time? For example if I kill myself now at 22 having not worked a day in my life and not contributing almost nothing to society and still having pretty bad habits of being lazy will I reincarnate for example as a simpler form of life a worm or some plant and how in that context does one through the process of samsara earn to become human again? Does one have the one of the set goals as a newborn human being to overcome one's one inherited family problems (for example such as suicide or tendency of feud and betrayal in the family? and there is also passage in the Old testament of inherited sin, from the book of Numbers 14:18) (I am not in a suicidal mood or rut now I just had theses questions when I was but I haven't overcome the aforementioned problems in the long term yet)

I have been depressed since my early teens. I started to see light at the end of the tunnel around age 34, then I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and I fell right back down. I am 38 now. MS derailed all the progress I thought I was making and led me to actualize.org. This work has led me to the realization that to save myself as a kid, I was destroying my future happiness. I am working on uncovering my childhood vows and I am seeing how I was reinforcing my self-destruction time after time after time and it has made me so very very angry. The realization that I wasted a large chunk of my youth and 2 decades of my adulthood depressed over crap that never actually mattered infuriates me. I wish I had succeeded in my teen suicide attempts. I think part of what makes me angry is the fact that there is no one I can legitimately direct it at. I want to be angry at myself, but I didn't know any better. I want to be angry at my bullies, but I know they were just my mirror images who found a different way to cope. They didn't know any better either. I want to be angry at an adult, my mother even. "Why didn't anyone tell me I was destroying myself?" But they weren't inside my head, watching me systematically shut down all things within me that I needed to develop in order to become a relatively well-adjusted adult. So I just sit with this ball of fury In my chest, wishing I would have not been so inept at offing myself. This work is constantly reminding me of how badly I screwed myself and it's given me the ability to see some my self degradation on autopilot. It's so omnipresent, so controlling, so damaging, so demoralizing and I did it to myself. That's infuriating and this is just the beginning, i'm sure. I just don't know what to do about this anger.

Yeah, it’s very dangerous. what kid of message does the movie title: “suicide squad” give off subconsciously to those who are already full of angst and resentment...

nah.... happiness is great but its not sustainable and only leads to more suffering if that is what you are chasing. Instead, chase the peace that transcends happiness and sadness. Then it won't matter which emotional state you find yourself in. But yes, I am generally happier, and no longer want to commit suicide

Radical is not always more conscious. I could say that I believe society would be better if everyone rode on top of elephants instead of in cars to reduce carbon emission and that would certainly be radical... but definitely not more conscious. But let's be clear, though NOT everything more radical is more conscious, EVERYTHING that's more conscious IS more radical by its very nature. And if it weren't seen as radical, we'd already be doing them. It would be part of the new middle ground. We need to change the structure if we want to grow and evolve. And Centrism won't cut it. The middle ground just ensures the status quo continues and nothing gets shook up. And I also agree that we need to take all angles into account. That's precisely why I hold the views of society and politics that I do. If you actually consider the real world effect of politics and don't see politics as its own little bubble, you'll see that the "middle ground" has a lot of imbalances in it. So ironically, to be balanced, you need to change society to something more balanced... which will be seen as radical. You shouldn't define balance by "How much in the middle am I on the political spectrum compared to others in my society?" You should define balance in terms of, "What policies and worldviews should I support to help create a sense of balance and fairness in society?" And most of the most poignant balance-creating policies that would help us evolve into a less corrupt society are NOT to be found in the middle ground. Most of them are on the avant garde of mainstream society's political development (aka progressive). But furthermore, if you are a Centrist and take the "middle ground", it usually just means that you've only considered your impression of both political extremes and arbitrarily drew a mid-point in between both of those relative extremes. You haven't fundamentally done the work of venturing out into the real-world consequences of this "middle ground" thinking, and usually Centrists don't even have a clear idea of partisan groups that they've arbitrarily wedged themselves in the center of. They just go, "Hey, I think everyone should get along. So, I'm going to just support both groups because that's the nicest thing to do that creates the least amount of conflict in my life. It's more comfortable and it makes me less likely to be accused of extremism. Also, I don't need to educate myself at all, I just tout the virtues of being oh so balanced and tolerant and accepting." And that's how they decide upon their political and social views. Also, if you understand that the "middle ground" is a relative term defined by the current state of society and politics, and that so are the terms Progressive and Conservative... then you'll understand that Centrists are just as guilty of partisanship as someone who identifies as (liberal/progressive/conservative/left/right, etc.) Also, I gave two forms of what our society deems extremism in my last example... right (Nazi-ism) and left (Communism ala Stalin). I chose extreme left wing and right wing examples of societies where the "middle ground" is extreme in our view and the "extremes" are moderate in our view. But I can give plenty more... In some tribal societies, it was a "middle ground" practice to kill twins upon birth because the phenomenon was ascribed to a demon doppleganger of the original twin being birthed into society. It was extremism to even suggest there were ethical issues with this. In ancient Greece, when a woman was raped it was the "middle ground" that she was responsible for the rape as sexual impropriety on her part and she was expected to commit suicide immediately afterward to save her honor. And it was extremism for a woman to suggest she wasn't the one responsible for her rape or to stay alive. In our society, it's the "middle ground" that there is vast income inequality where the top three wealthiest people in America own more than the bottom 50% of people. In our society, it's the "middle ground" that big corporations buy favor with the government to stack the deck in favor of their interests and against the interests of the average person. In our society, (if you're American) it's the "middle ground" that public schools are funded off of property taxes, which leads to the wealthiest children having the best public schools and the poorest children having the worst public schools that struggle with funding and over-crowded classes. And it also guarantees a kind of de facto segregation where there are still poor mostly black schools and richer mostly white schools. In our society, it's the "middle ground" the people who work 40 hours per week are making poverty wages, where they can't even afford to live. And it's also the "middle ground" that the minimum wage hasn't changed in a close to a decade, despite the fact that the cost of living has increased as well as the level of productivity. In our society, (if you're American) it's the "middle ground" for people to go bankrupt due to medical debt and it's also the "middle ground" for 30k to 40k Americans die per year due to lack of insurance, under-insurance, rationing care, and not being able to afford prescriptions. So, this gives you just a little hint of the tyrannies of the "middle ground". So, if these are the "middle ground", we need to be "extreme" in order to change to a society that's more balanced and fair for ALL people. We have the capacity to do it. And if we do it, it will become the NEW middle ground eventually. And while capitulating to the center and the "middle ground", probably creates more harmony and balance in your life as a Centrist via getting along with everyone you're talking politics with in the center left and center right and not "fighting/demonizing" eachother within that 'oh so civil' conversation... you're not fundamentally considering how much imbalance these "middle ground" views are contributing to. So, actually be balanced. Actually consider things from ALL angles. Actually have a viewpoint that's based on more than just arbitrarily drawing the mid-point between the most common polarities within your particular society. Open your eyes to the actual real-world effects of your political opinions.

I feel like a woman, attracted to both trans women and women. I recently been questioning myself and discovered that I like trans women just as much as I like women, I am afraid of coming out but I know that if I don't I am going to remain depressed and alone. I keep seeming to have dreams that I am a woman.I am single and it seems like I enjoy anal which I tried using a long carrot, and I loved it quite a bit. I have had self hatred for years but due to Leo's videos I have slowly decreased my self hatred and have learned to love myself. Do you have any advice? Am I like this because I was sexually abused from like 5 -13 years old, hormone imbalance? In the past I have almost committed suicide like 4 times @Devi Shanti I even have a crush on a Shellya Wandergirlt a trans porn star.

I just watched Leo's episode on fear. I read an essay on suicide recently called "Heaven and Nature." The author said, "I felt utterly exhausted and yet quite fearless of ordinary dangers, vastly afraid of myself, but much less scared of extraneous eventualities." If all fear boils down to is fear of a total loss of self, as Leo says, then how could someone be so afraid of their own mind?

Its not really a practice for me, its a state of being. One day you just have enough so you decide to change. I had no option. It was suicide or change. When i changed, my reality changed. Just like that. Just like i said, whatever you'd like to experience in life, you must first give that energy out yourself into the world. Always goes back to the mirror analogy. Its one of my favourite quotes and people give me so much feedback for it because its absolutely true. Keep at it, get lost in it, become a completely different person, someone you'd prefer to be and soon or later you will notice something Hope this helps <3

Lol, fair enough. Okay, it's probably good you don't mention then that often the choice is suicide or spirituality!

You don't have the motivation to get better, that's understandable.. but you do have the desire it seems, and that's huge. You just don't know how it's possible. Without getting too much into it.. it's possible. Believe it. I suffered for 17 years from depression, anxiety, lots of medication, many suicide attempts and plenty of ideation. I thought it would never get better. Today this is not the case. Seek another therapist, one that you really resonate with and respect. From there you will build up the motivation to do more things that help you rather than hurt you. Also reconsider medication. If you find the right one for you, it can be a tremendous crutch to help you get through the shit while you're putting in the work. Just don't make the mistake I did and see it as a long term solution. Good luck to you and please message me if you want someone to talk to.

Hi, this is possibly a big post. I will try to put it simply. When I was in 4th grade, a guy who is elder to me showed me some porn and I felt disgusted and frightened and I run back to my home. Even before I tried to completely forget about that incident I discovered that my father has an affair with another woman when I was playing with my dad's phone. I saw nude images of this woman and from that moment I "unconsciously" developed some sort of dislike towards my father. I was like not angry on my father instead I felt sad. I kept on thinking why is he doing this. And questions like "Did someone intentionally put those pictures in my dad's phone?" A lot of other sad things happened like I heard my mother crying in the middle of the night and on one day I heard my mother talking about my father's affair with him. The thing is I did not say this to anyone. Not until my second year of engineering. In my second year of engineering, things went really bad. My behavior became worse. I always misunderstood even my few friends said. It is during this time I had mood swings and friends told me that something is really wrong with me. The worseness didn't end yet. I had committed suicide after my best friend stopped talking to me. Because I felt good in her company. I somewhat felt not good at home because of family issues. All my relation with my friends didn't go well from my second year of undergrad. My parents took me to a Psychiatrist and the doc told that I was suffering with Schizophrenia(no hallucinations) and depressional OCD. And FYI, I also have porn addiction which I developed after a long time after seeing the adult google searches made by my father when I was like in my 9th grade. I also committed suicide three more times due to depression that I was kicked out from my college course and also because my friends stopped talking to me. I only have 7 friends in during my engineering course and I surely know that my best friend thought that because of she I committed suicide. She actually tried to help me when I was having bad symptoms and she also even took me to a doc but I discontinued using the medicines. My best friend knows what happened during my childhood and actually she was the first one who know this. For sure, I know she always tried to help me but I always misunderstood. My behavior is not good at that time. I became picky about the things happening. She stopped talking to me from the moment she came to know that I committed suicide the first time(I took 17 sleeping tablets at once)....I am on medication even now and it's been more than a year I was under medication. And besides talking about all this with my doc and using medicines I still have porn addiction. Though I dont watch a porn video for more than 10-15 minutes I randomly go to a time in the video and I start masturbating and I ejaculate and I then close the incognito browser. First of all, thank you for taking time to read all my text. So I have two questions: how can I cure my addiction? I sometimes feel guilty of watching porn because I felt that I should stop watching because it's not a good thing and also that my friend would feel bad when she knows this. And my second question is after all this...I am feeling that what happened is actually good and I am also having no objection while watching Leo's videos. I am confused whether I am taking this positively or negatively. What are your views on this? And once again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for reading my post.

I'm probably not the most qualified person to answer as I've never seriously considered suicide. It has been a few years since I felt somewhat similar. As if I was being dragged through the day by obligations that have long lost their meaning. Everything was difficult and I had to force myself to do the most simple things. Otherwise I would just stop doing anything for days. Then the anxiety, guilt and depression rose to unbearable levels and it pushed me into action again for a short while. I was scared of the future, I was on a path to even greater misery. Anyway, what turned it around for me, I spent a few weeks trying to figure out if there was anything that I actually wanted to do. The anxiety, panic, fear, guilt was so intense I was unable to think clearly. My mind was a mish mash of incoherent thoughts and anxiety. I found that when I went to hot shower it eased the anxiety and I gained a sense of clarity temporarily. I spent like 10hrs each day under the hot shower, racking up huge bills, lol. At first I couldn't find anything. Then I imagined if I was a wizard and could do literally anything I wanted, would I still sit in my apartment all day do nothing? I would totally do awesome things then, but it's just that I'm not a wizard and I can't do anything in real life. Then it dawned on me that there actually was something that I wanted to do just that I thought it was not possible. Some time later I broke out of victim thinking and realized I actually can do the things I want in real life without needing to be a wizard. This turned everything around for me and I've changed my life quite a bit since then. I had a career too that I went to university for and spent 5+ years working on which I quit and started something else which I'm still happy with. I'm not suggesting you to quit or do anything rash. Try to figure out if there is a desire in your gut to do something. Maybe the things you want have changed but you feel obligated to continue doing old things since you've already invested so much into them.

Second of week resuming journaling Monday - I got up before 7:30 am to go workout at the gym. I started working out at 8:50 am and finished at around 10:45 am. I felt good about getting it done early in the day. After I got home, I showered, ate, and then got ready for my online meeting with my Placement Academic Review counselor. The meeting was to some extent disappointing due to how it was conducted. She seemed quite rigid with the way that she asked the questions and how I had to answer them. I didn't get the chance to tell how I thought or felt about my time as a student teacher. After the meeting, I talked with my parents for about an hour about the meeting. Then, I took a long break and stressed out about how I am gonna make it anywhere in life. Then, I meditated until my girlfriend got home. Afterwards, I helped her rake the leaves on her back patio. Later on, when I told my girlfriend that I decided to agree with my parents's advice on going back up on the dosage for an anti-depressant the pill that I've been taking, she got very upset with me for the rest of the night, even as we watched the season premiere of Dancing with the Stars. Overall, I felt very stressed out about my life. Tuesday - I woke up feeling a little sick with a stuffy nose so I slept in somewhat late. I then had a talk with my parents over the phone discussing my future. I finished my job application for a seasonal position of being a Sales Associate at Party City for Halloween. I didn't really do much work or studying. I did some laundry including cleaning my clothes and our bed sheets. I have been continuing to take the increased dosage of the anti-depressant, but so far no change in mood yet. I brought in mailed packages for my girlfriend. I helped my girlfriend make dinner and we watched some TV. I felt so lost and hopeless about my life. I also felt very ashamed of how much I've accomplished. Wednesday - I went to the gym early in the morning again. However, I stayed there for at least 4 hours. I felt bad for staying that long. After getting back home, I showered, ate, and then talked with my parents on the phone for a while. Over the phone, I found out that my sister was being sent to the hospital to get induced by the medical staff for the delivery of her newborn baby. One of the things we talked about on the phone was whether or not I should come back home this weekend and if my girlfriend would be willing to drive me to my parents' home. My girlfriend said that she like she would too tired to drive with me to their place. So, I discussed with my parents about train transportation options; however, after we tried to figure out the best schedule for me to ride home on the train, we decided that it was too much trouble to figure it out and that I should just stay with my girlfriend over the weekend. I took a long break including doing some PNF stretching for my hamstrings. Holly and her friends/coworkers invited me to have dinner with them at an Asian tea restaurant right after they finished working at their job. She told me over the phone to not be late with getting ready to pick me up and go with her. However, I ended up being ready a few minutes late, and she got pissed about that. She said that she couldn't take it anymore and that maybe I should go back to my parents' place tomorrow. On our way to the dinner meetup I felt very bad about being late and the number of times I messed up with my timing. When we arrived at the restaurant, we got there only a couple minutes later than her friends/coworkers did. So, I didn't have to feel bad about making them wait for a bit. During the meetup, we enjoyed ourselves and I think that my girlfriend cooled down over me being late with getting ready for them. After we got home, we watched one of our favorite shows, Supernatural, on Netflix until we got ready for bed. I felt relieved that she was no longer upset with me, but I still felt really down and stressed about my life overall up through the middle of the night. Thursday - I woke a little late, but not as late as I did on Tuesday. My parents called me and told me that after deliberating more on what I should do, they felt that it would be best if I took a year off from school and get ready for the placement next time by having a job for a year to get enough work experience and skills for myself. I freaked out about that because I didn't want to have to take off another year from school. I didn't do much during the morning, but around Noon and up through the afternoon, I spent a lot of time vacuuming much of her bedroom floor, ceiling, and walls. It was a pain to move her clothes and shoes out of the way for vacuuming and then having to put all of it back to where they were before (as best as I could remember). However, I was proud of myself for having accomplished that both for overall neatness and our health. My girlfriend seemed a bit surprised, but appreciative of me having done it for her. Later on, when she came back home, I helped get rid of some old shoes she no longer liked or needed. Then, I did my long distance running training. After my run, I showered and got ready to go grocery shopping with my girlfriend. As we went shopping, I got a phone call from my mom and she was telling how very stressed she is about my sister's delivery of her newborn child within the hospital and about me possibility doing something regrettable for my school/career like trying to approach the teacher, staff, and school where my placement was cancelled at, even though I was told not to contact the school at all. However, I reassured her that I promise I wouldn't do anything stupid or crazy and she calmed down. I told my girlfriend about that and she felt that my mom was overreacting as usual. After we got the food, we made dinner and watched more Supernatural on Netflix. During the rest of the night, I felt somewhat nervous about my sister and her baby. I took a Benadryl to help me sleep at night, which I think helped to some extent. Overall, I felt I had a more productive day than my previous days. Friday - I woke up a bit late again. I talked to my parents on the phone again about what to do with my life. I did calisthenics training outside on my girlfriend's property. I am getting used to doing them on the pavement. I then did my PNF stretching for the front splits. I felt bad about not doing them earlier yesterday, but I was glad that I at least got one of those PNF stretching sessions for the week in. Then, I ate my breakfast and lunch late. Afterwards, I had another long talk with my parents on the phone about my career and they said that they still prefer me to find a part-time for a year. I told that I haven't gotten any acceptances for the bunch of jobs I applied to and that I am really worried about finding any kind of job at all. They told me that I have to keep applying for more jobs, including maybe ones that might fit someone like me with my qualifications. They also said that they sincerely doubt that I wouldn't find some kind of decent job given how good the job market in this country is out there. However, I still believe in the possibility of never finding any kind of fair job, or perhaps any of any kind. One reason, I feel this way due to having already been rejected from a few basic part-time positions at a hotel I applied to and still haven't received any good news from any of the businesses I applied to for jobs they seem to have available. Another reason, is that I've already heard stories of people who like me are young and able and willing to work seriously at any job, but have applied to hundreds of jobs for at least a year and still couldn't even get one job, despite being in a period of a good job economy for their county, and even with the improvements they consistently made to their resume overtime and being in a good job economy. The only thing good that really happened today was when I was told the news of my sister having finally given birth successfully to her newborn daughter. I was relieved and happy for my sister of course. Later at night, we had dinner and watched a dumb comedy movie. Overall today, I felt doomed and so incredibly frustrated with my life. Saturday - I woke up at little after 9 am today, ate breakfast, washed my face, and got ready to go to Hapkido in the morning. I went there until the afternoon. My groove with teaching the beginners class seemed to be coming back. Right before class when I had to cut my nails, I accidentally broke the nail clipper I took with me to the studio, which made me frustrated. I didn't get to cut all of my finger nails before the clipper broke and it was about that time I had to teach the beginners class, so I got worried about what people were going to think about my nails when I teach class and afterwards. Yet, I figured I had no choice and it wasn't really that big of a deal. I got through the class fine and then finished clipping the rest of my fingernails as best as I could with the broken clipper, which I successfully did with some brute force. As for the blackbelt class, it was actually relatively easy, which was nice. Before I left the studio, I told some of the people I knew well including Master Kim about my newborn niece, which they congratulated me for. That felt nice. When I got home, I worked for a few hours on catching up on all of these personal journal entries for this week and did a little work on my experimentation plan for my PAR process. I felt stressed about how much work I had to catch up on and I had trouble concentrating on doing the tasks. Afterwards, I had to help my girlfriend clean the kitchen. During that time, I felt very depressed and angry with my life. I even had some suicidal thoughts. These negative thoughts and feelings lingered for hours longer into the evening as we went to the Good Will store and then to the Whole Foods grocery store. When we got home and had dinner we watch some old Eddie Murphy comedy, which was not really great, imo. So, we turned it off and played with each other for a bit before she decided to go have her shower. As she start getting her shower ready, I called my mom and we spoke on FaceTime showing me an update on her garage issue and discussing with me about what more that needs to be done with it. I showed her a small part of my gf's apartment and her cat and my mom got curious about all of it. My girlfriend came out of the bathroom and asked me what I was doing, so we ended the phone conversation with my mom saying hi and goodnight to her and then my mom and I saying good night to each other. My girlfriend didn't like that I showed my mom any of her place. She then walked off to check her phone and decided to call her best friend up to see how things were going with her. Meanwhile, I decided to finish the rest of my daily journal entries. I believe that I am now all caught up with all of my daily journal entries, which is a significant relief for me. Sunday - I woke up late with my girlfriend and we had some physical intimacy. Then, we got up and I had breakfast, washed my face, and got ready to help her clean up the kitchen. When we were cleaning the kitchen, I felt so down and angry about my life. I thought about not being able to take anymore pain of rejection and loss of anything else in life. I contemplated suicide again. After we got done cleaning up the kitchen, we took a bit of a break and then she decided to go shopping with her best friend while I decided to stay home and work on my PAR process plan and ways to improve my student teaching experience. After searching through much of the internet, I couldn't really find any solutions or ideas that seemed helpful for my particular situation. I also looked up the student teaching placement handbook sent by one of my academic advisors, and I felt disheartened when I noticed that one part of it mentioned that being dismissed from a placement again could result in dismissal from the entire teaching program. Consequently, I got even more stressed out about it. I felt more anxious about my capabilities and scared about how ruthless life can be. After she got back home and finished my lunch meal, we continued cleaning up the place including me cleaning the bathroom sink, mirror, and toiletry placed on the sink. After, I finished all of that, I sat on the couch looking very sad which my girlfriend noticed. She asked me how I can be happier to which I said "finding a way to ensure a career for my future." We talked about it until I went to the gym.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses eveyone! There's some good information in this thread! Update: She had a suicide attempt about a week and a half ago. She seems to be doing a lot better now. She's now open to getting help, but still hesitant. I've learned that her family situation is pretty rough, and that it's contributed a lot to these issues. We've gotten a lot closer over the past month. She really is very sweet, caring and accepting despite her mental health issues. I really want to make this work but am starting to understand that it might be necessary to step away @Leo Gura Thanks for your insights on this topic! I'll keep that in mind as I move forward. At a certain point I might have to accept that there isn't gonna be a way to make things work. @remember That's important to keep in mind as well. Individual situations are distinct, so our judgement shouldn't be clouded by trying to fit a story to some abstract stereotype of "the toxic relationship".

A doctor who focuses the 10000 hours on studying medicine his enlightened colleague spent doing self-enquiry is likely to have 10000 more hours of medical knowledge , with a bigger knowledge base to draw upon. I would therefore think his chances of making a mistake would be lower. A truly enlightened doctor is one who values truth, and is probably doing less clinical practise in a system which is not fit for purpose. He would be able to do this by living his life to avoid wage slavery and have enough self-awareness to move away from an abusive system which is haemorrhaging doctors and where the suicide rate should be a cause of concern.

I don't think you should stop teaching as there are other perspectives or people who observe your teachings. You gave these two options 1) You don't really exist. You are just a figment of my imagination. The entire world is just for me. In other words, total solipsism. This is the teaching which drives people to commit suicide and helps nobody. It's totally pointless and makes people even more isolated and disconnected from each other. The strangest thing of all is how so few people point this out and appear to really enjoy the videos where you say these things. 2) God subdivided itself into separate dimensions, one of which is mine and one of which is yours. Of course since both of us are God, both of us are being both dimensions at once. So I and you are literally one consciousness but experiencing different forms. This one, although pretty unsettling, makes much more sense. God has done a pretty shit job and isn't really all that powerful if all it can do is become Shaun and live as Shaun.

Exactly what @Leo Gura said. I've been in that situation before AND the girl was willing to actually put the effort in it and research her problems and go to therapy with and without me and it was still a struggle and didn't work out. This is the recipe for an EXTREMELY co-dependent relationship. You only have a sliver of hope if she can realize that her behaviors are issues and is willing to work it out. If not, 0% chance to make it work. Not even 1%. I would personally get out now before she gets even more invested and Leo is right, you will get threats of suicide when you distance yourself then. Fix your own issues to the point that you don't attract or are immediately aware of people with severe issues before too much investment sink in. You will grow regardless but IMO, choose a more quality growing experience. I'm sure she is a quality person and all this doesn't remove her positive attributes but in having a successful, healthy relationship; positive attributes don't outweigh negative ones.

Yes, absolutely! It's magnificent and ingenious. Still, it is a crutch that can be overcome. OH, and to answer your title question: No. While your identity is dying, this is not suicide. You are not the identities you assume.

What's there to live for when someone is fully detatched? If I detatched from everything, i wouldn't mind if my family gets raped and butchered and I wouldn't care if I lived in a small box and I had to shit there and eat there at the same time. Or i wouldn't care if someone puts a knife on my throat and cuts it open. It just seems too much for me. It's either impossible to become totally detatched or it makes you a suicidal person who doesn't give a shit. And small degrees of "overcomming fear" won't fucking matter because fear of death or losing loved ones will always be there.