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Full enlightenment by accident? You're a prophet

@David Hammond If you mean full enlightenment, yeah it's right guess but i think reletive growth is sudden. I think it as gradual.

yeah okay that maybe true, but the thoughts themselves don't coincide with what others perceieve to the reality or their ego attachment, simply put: I can't do both because i can't balance so it was wasnt a choice of doing both, but picking one with all factors included, but thanks i hear ya good luck with reaching full enlightenment

I didn't say watching a Tolle video would get you the "full enlightenment". I posted an example of a great explanation of what it actually is, as opposed to what it is not. I have not heard of those 2 people you mentioned. But as far as I know, actual "enlightened" teachers don't put other teachers into categories, such as "first stage", "2nd stage", etc or give their opinion on one's advancement. There is no possible way that know who is actually "enlightened" and who is "not". That alone is already a red flag for me, when it comes to those 2 teachers you mentioned. You seem to be trapped in "spiritual seeking", with all of the conceptualizing and intellectualizing of "enlightenment". Goes back to my point - until you drop the seeking and drop the idea that "enlightenment" is something to be attained in the future, you will not get to "enlightenment". You are not alone, there are thousands of seekers seeking for years.

You guys are fairly clueless as to what stabalization in basic non duality is, and how far that is from full enlightenment. Watching a tolle video doesn’t change that. He is pretty unaware of how deep the rabbit hole goes too. I am not the only one saying that either. Ramaji puts him in the first stage of enlightenment. Jan esmann thinks he isn’t too advanced either, but why listen to everyone I just mentioned. You watched a tolle video, and had an awakening once. You know enlightenment and reality like the back of your hand.

Awakening, realising non duality, and stabilising in it (stream entry) doesn’t have to take too long. People often confuse that for full enlightenment or arhathood. Most the “enlightened” teachers are so very far from the actual thing.

@peanutspathtotruth thats amazing about the fasting! your going to get crazy benefits from that. major detox. man 72 hours every week! thats unreal! i only do ~24 hour one every week, but im trying to get some muscle now and eating seems to be important for that. allthough im barely putting an any weight on at all. as for psychedelics, i dont really do them anymore. not that im against them. and i even had a ton(dmt, acid, shrooms), when i decided they don't offer me anything, anymore, right now. all of my phsych experience has basically led me back to doing this stuff like i mentioned in the post. like for instance the Trataka meditation with the candle, was shown to me through an experience and one of my yoga class instructors ect. basically consciousness in those experiences was showing me the real valuable stuff in my everyday practices. and of course the guru was also shown to me countless times. in countless experiences, even without phsychadelics, like dreams and those crazy moments during meditation of deep insight. so yeah basically they can open doors for increasing your consciousnesses, temprarily, or like lifting the veil, which can give u benefits if ur looking fro motivation or some cool mystical experience. i guess in way it gives u that god consciousness experience which is pretty much impossible without insane deep practice or extreme energy fields like what an adheenam or ashram life can give you. but for me they kind of pointed me in the direction of, they only serve that temporary experience, and pointed out the real sober stuff that leads to the real full enlightenment. . phsychs are kind of like opening the door temporarily. and they real doors u want to open are supposed to be opened naturally, through lots of practice and lots of detoxing and extreme will persistence. at least that's my experience so far. it could change. u never know. @Harikrishnan yes i do, and i hope this doesn't lead to you pointing out all the negative attention he has. so far it seems like following him has been the most valuable thing i have done so far. @Truth Addict Thats amazing to hear! and thankyou so much for sharing your experiences. Its always good to stick to things that give u results. But also always make sure ur open to new things, im sure you are, but its always good to remind yourself to look at everything and ask yourself if it has any value. because it might not always in taht moment, and could plant a seed to something in the future.. i know when i expanded my practice beyond just meditation and western style yoga, and self inquiry and all that things really started to change and open up even more.

I really am not in a position to say much about it because my awakening only goes as far as deep, silent, thoughtless stillness. I have not really had any mind blowing insights but don't go down the road of solipsism. We are all in this together so please don't feel alone. You are right, the old world view of separate selves made out of matter was utterly magical and life was truly precious but at the same time tragic because you only had one shot at it. Now, as I see it, reality is an infinite endless treadmill of joy and suffering and full enlightenment is the only escape.

I've really thought about this a lot when it comes to contemplating my Life Purpose and boy is this something that's going to be messy. Now that we're in a world that DEMANDS and integral approach to spirituality, psychology, philosophy, human transformation, science, politics, and planetary restoration and also now that 5-MeO-DMT and other psychedelics is becoming slowly but surely more talked about... I really can't help but contemplate how an integral spiritual infrastructure could really be built, particularly in Western, 1st world, secular countries. What excites me is that all the tools seem to be there. Granted, legality of psychedelics of course is still a big issue. However, as far as I'm concerned, I think even that obstacle could still be worked around. The practices are all out there, the psychedelics that help most for consciousness work are out there as far as what are the one's to use (again, acquisition of such substances is another matter right now). When I look at popular sages and spiritual leaders like Sadhguru (I'm going to use him & India as my example in this post because he's just such a good, yet rare, example) I see someone and something truly extraordinary. I see someone who clearly is a masterful 2nd tier systems thinker. He's able to influence and talk to an enlightened yogi whose been in a cave for 15 years (Blue/Purple), economic and political titans (Orange), rational left brained scientists (Orange/Yellow), rural masses (Blue), kids as far down as elementary school, urbanites in their 20s pursuing sex/materialism (Orange), and attract the liberal hippies from afar (Green). You can even see in his talks and discourses he talks to all of them differently. He's even able to lead his sannyasis and he's actually very integral and 2nd tier in his approach by creating a system within his ashram where he can bring in both men and women and have an environment that seems to unite them all and even lead conscious restoration projects. It's fucking incredible that one man can lead all that in yet still have 1 month out of the year to spend in the Himalayas each year (read that in his biography). At the same time though (not even getting into his good fortune of his full enlightenment at the age of 25 - past 3 lifetime of work... as far as I'm concerned I don't see why this can't be the case), look at how fucking rare a person like that is. Someone who can withstand that workload, has that strong interpersonal and 2nd tier leadership skills, is as masterful and downright talented he is in the domain of spirituality as he is (beyond his depth of psychic proficiency and so much more, which as far as my research goes, is fucking off the charts if it really is true), not having gotten power hungry, the degree to which he succeeded in terms of impact on the world, etc. Also consider that he's in a country that has over 5000 years of spiritual infrastructure/foundation! There's a spiritual science there for building fuckin' temples at how to utilize them as energy centers for human beings (Agamas Shastras). I personally agree with @Leo Gura (which I think he hammers home on better than even than Ken Wilber) on the point that spirituality and really, the world at large, must go integral and evolve and include and embrace technologies such as psychedelics and specifically 5-Meo-DMT, EEG technology, what's to come with AI, etc. and also embrace other personal development schools, schools of psychology, science, art, philosophical schools, etc. which A LOT of these teachers reject because their whole impact is based around creating a particular niche school which excludes other things! Can you imagine going into a Zen monastery in Japan and trying to convince a Zen master whose been in a certain school that 5-Meo-DMT can get you to realize Nothingness in 30 min or less and that it's a much faster and more efficient tool than grinding for decades (which is not to dismiss work ethic or portray 5-MeO-DMT as some quick fix) that, for most people who down that path, produces a semi deep awakening at best? He'd keisaku your ass out of there. Hell, I would imagine even Sadhguru would dismiss it as a perfectly legitimate path. Even Ralston, a deeply enlightened master here in the West that seems to have no real attachment any spiritual system or spiritual culture and grew up a lot here in the San Francisco where I live dismisses psychedelics! What happens when the human guru is replaced with a syringe and powder made in a chemistry lab? How likely is that guru to either accept that or end up abusing that? Not to mention, the more integral you get, the more you'll have to realize that each person is of course different in their unique set of problems, their strengths and talents, emotional blockages, personality types, interests, etc. which of course undermines a set and stone system/school/tradition because the whole point of tradition/school/system is that it's different from all the others, even just from a business standpoint. Not to mention, the larger the school and the more people you draw in, the more you'll have to dilute your teachings, practices, and the Greater Jihad to fit the masses. Granted, going back to Sadhguru, I think he's being smart by having his ashram where he leads sanyasins where he goes balls to the wall with them so that when he dies, he's planted seeds that will live on after him. Even with that though, look at how much corruption, dilution, shenanigans, and the collapse in the quality of the school after the main leader passes on. What happens when Sadhguru's vision just becomes some ideological moral objective for his followers in 100 years that blindly follow that rather than think for themselves? What happens when you're school falls behind in it's spiral stage and grows out of date and becomes obsolete and eventually becomes regressive relative to where the rest of the world is? This is not even mentioning the work that comes with transcending cultural paradigms. Lastly, how on earth does a spiritual infrastructure get built in a country like say in the USA where our culture is not one of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, but one of consumerism? We (I live in the USA so this is just an easier way for me to frame this) live in a country that as far as my (subpar) analysis and assessment goes seems to just be emulating the same pattern that lead to the fall of Ancient Greece. On the global macro scale, the USA is a baby country as far as it's age goes. If I were to equate this with a business example, we seem to be like just one giant MLM that's been parasitic on not just the earth but to other world cultures and countries. It's like a business who just aims for profits for the short and mid-term at all costs and get's wealthy in the beginning and stays there for awhile because its Orange, it's strategic enough to stay on top. In the end though the business falls apart because it wasn't based on those timeless principles longer lasting principles that undermine short-term growth. Not to mention, we don't even recognize our culture that much because consumerism is much harder to see relative to a lot of other world cultures. For better and worse, we have such a massive influence on the rest of the world. People in other countries (particularly in the 3rd world of course) still idolize America and wish to come over here for opportunity and a chance for them as an individual to thrive at Stage Orange and make something of themselves. We infect the world with our ideology and image of consumerism and Stage Orang mindset. Taking a step though, there are A LOT of pluses with that. So I'm not saying this to just bash Orange and the USA. Orange is multiplistic. It helped science and a lot of other fields and industries to really unfold which a lot of these countries really desperately need. It brought opportunity and set the stage for individuals to revolutionize and rebel against the excesses that came with Blue. At the same time though, we seem to be in a place without a strong nor up to date spiritual/metaphysical foundation/infrastructure which I think is really one of our primary achilles heels when it comes to the survival of this country and also the world since the United States is such an influential powerhouse. What happens to a family when the only breadwinner is dad and mom is a housewife and the kids follows dad no matter what because of the power disparity he has and dad is also a raging alcoholic that beats his wife and kids and gets away with it because he's the most powerful one in the house but eventually becomes so neurotic and dysfunctional because of his of his dysfunctional ego that he ends up in jail or dies in a drunk driving accident? Or if mom eventually decides to fight back and comes at him with a baseball bat? Is that really going to make the family any better? Or will that lead to the collapse of the family entirely? I don't know...

There are probably uncountable meditative samadhi states. A very number of awakened states (stable samadhi states) as well. With varying depths and flavors. Neither stable sober samadhis, nor meditative samadhis are liberation. The meditative ones are temporary & 99 percent of the stable ones are still defiled, distorted and limited due to subconsious defilements. Full enlightenment only comes with the total eradication of the subconsious walls, limitations, defilements, and deep karmic impressions that go way deeper than you would think.

Ralston has a decent amount of subconsious opus arrogance that shows on his face. He has a ways to go. In modernity. Ramana is rather advanced, Sheng Yen who is a Taiwanese monk is good, and there is a Sri Lankan monk that I believe is the most advanced person in recent history whose name is wanaraka thero. None of the people I mentioned I believe were fully enlightened, however, in fact I’m positive. The only person who showed signs of full enlightenment was the historical Buddha.

@FoxFoxFox yes. But it's not a magic bullet. He advised me to meditate every day and pray to God. He said that full enlightenment is not possible unless you are engulfed in a burning desire for God, which takes over your entire life. That is not the case for me. Not even close.

@BIggleswerth Buddhism is a very broad thing, with different branches and varying interpretations of those branches. I'll contrast what seem to me to be the prevalent views here vs How I view the Buddha's teachings. I notice a lot of emphasis here on awakening, having insights into the non-dual nature of reality. How self and other/the world are not separate. And so having this realization in a complete manner would lead to full enlightenment, and the cessation of suffering. Meditation, self-inquiry, and psychedelics are used to try to reach this realization. The character and relative nature of the "enlightened person" is considered a separate matter, as it falls into the realm of duality. The Buddha's first noble truth is that life is suffering. It may be more accurately stated as life has an inherently unsatisfactory nature. Due to fear of the unknown, caused by our inability to understand the world, or guarantee our safety, we seek to control life. Our need to control creates cravings. Cravings basically control our lives. Cravings are the cause of suffering. Only by completely and clearly seeing the impossibility of gaining satisfaction in life, will our mechanism of craving start to exhaust itself. Bit by bit. Leading to a greater freedom with it. Until, by the extinguishing of all craving, liberation is reached.

Interesting. People who have written about levels of consciousness in humans (e.g. David Hawkins) put paranormal abilities at a lower level than full enlightenment. So I understand how people might start experiencing 'crazy' phenomenon without grounding it in the Absolute and freak out as a result. True. As spiritual teachers advocate: Work towards enlightenment. If paranormal abilities present themselves, let them, but don't let that be a hindrance/distraction. Owing to the limit of interpersonal communication, we won't be able to conclude if this bliss that Jan experiences is fundamentally different from a state that lies in the domain of experience. The only way to verify is do the practices and see if you experience it yourself. And even after that, others might not believe you. #black_hole_effect

Take a trip with me for a sec- Persistent happiness is being content with the present moment. You get it through 2 ways: Meaning- living for other people, spiritual experiences, Being, virtues, relationships... Not resisting the present moment at all, in other words getting rid of all of your samskaras, purifying your soul so no resistance is left, full enlightenment as the buddha achieved. I think meaning just allows the brain to stop worrying that the present moment is good enough, which means it is good enough for now. Obviously the second option is nearly impossible and insanely hard, i think unachievable if you lead a usual western lifestyle, hence only the first option remains. notice- in the second option I include all the spirituality that youre doing- love, unity, relationships, whatever.. it is NOT the second option. 99.9% of happy people are happy because of the first option. now here comes my trap (i think its a trap): For there to be meaning for me that holds up and makes me happy, i have to be sure that the meaning is true 100%, otherwise, even if i slightly doubt it, the whole meaning goes out the window. I say that because even with a slight doubt, in the back of my mind I will feel that it's not enough, hence no happiness for me. The thing is that I cant ever be sure that the meaning is true 100%. Every meaning is a creation of our mind, because different people have different meanings, and stuff that you interpret a certain way for example animals may interpret a certain other way (see Leo's video on what is meaning). Therefore objective meaning is an oxymoron. Now, there is no objective meaning, but the meaning that i feel subjectively can be true, right? its there, I experience it. At the end of the day, the perspective that "everything is meaningless" is just a perspective, its not The perspective, theres no such thing as the perspective, so theoretically I could just go on with my life with the perspective in which I feel meaning, hence im happy, everything is cool. Personally I cant do that. Me knowing that the perspective I hold isnt the perspective, and that I know there are other perspectives equally valid doesnt let me believe that the meaning is 100% true, hence i cant be happy. at all. except if i go live in a cave for a few years and go the second way of getting rid of samskaras. basically im fucked. I guess im not THAT fucked, i can to some extent not resist the present moment due to meditations. i can also feel meaning sometimes when i forget that meaning is false or not absolute. but the lack of satisfaction comes back. I hope you understood what i wrote, I tried to be articulate. help P.S. what i wrote right now actually implies, that not love, not helping people, not knowing everything is one will make me happy. The only thing that will make me happy is to stop resisting the cruel meaninglessness of my existence. (thinking that meaninglessness is meaningful is a samskara and takes full enlightenment to get rid of, I think) P.P.S Maybe there is a better way to stop all resistance except buddha-like meditation, like gaining wisdom through studying combined with meditation, kriya yoga maybe, idfk, but meaning is NOT a way out. P.P.P.S I guess love and all that stuff is just a side effect and not the point.

Thanks! Do you think 5-MeO-DMT (or some other psychedelic) can be used for reaching full enlightenment?

@Jed Vassallo Can't really say if there's any credibility to this report. It just bluntly lists some serious allegations. No info as to where those are taken from. Anywho, problematic gurus are not a new thing. The problem with a guru is, they get elevated to a god-like status by their students and followers, which allows them to have vast power over other people. My first idea is I am all about teachers discouraging and trying to avoid the creation of such dynamic, which is vastly unhealthy. I can't say whether they don't do this because it's too much effort, or whether they don't do it because they desire the power of gurudom. I guess it depends on the case. It takes a purified mind to not abuse the power a guru has. Many so-called gurus have lots of issues still to deal with. The ability to control, have sex etc can become very strong temptations. Be the facts as they may, Mooji is nowhere near a living embodiment of full enlightenment, which is apparent in his lack of understanding of pain and human suffering. Many non-dual teachers tend to get stuck in their own bubble that is removed from the real world. Bullshitting yourself and avoiding growth is in a sense easier to do in a non-dual state.

That's also possible. It's possible to activate your energy in such a way that your body doesnt feel pain. In martal arts there's a way to cut the connection between your body and nervous system then you can walk on glass or smash bricks with your head or smth There're actually many states of being,.many tricks of the body to end the suffering. But most of them are not full enlightenment. One that could be closer to enlightenment is breaking your identification with the body and mind and experiencing yourself seperate from these two. It's a certain samadhi state when body can rot it doesnt matter. In your experience it's not even happening to you. I heard stories of sages who did things like that from sadhguru Here's one interesting state.

@Serotoninluv I have hit a roadblock, my red survival need is based on the fact i want to reach enlightenment and that it's already hit a really unhealthy stage fast, because i took it to the extreme in this one segment of red, i haven't tried other things that are red because i pretty much see the illusion of reality. so its either i give up the perspective that right now i should reach enlightenment and become healthy again, and move into more dynamics of red. or i continue searching for full enlightenment, which is already here but because my survival need hinges on this. i will sacrifice everything to get it. (hence unhealthy) what is your advice? PS note: DAMN spiral dyanmics can explain so much lol

Value the architect building skyscrapers above “my” complete & full enlightenment. It reveals value projection, on enlightenment, but there’s no such thing as enlightenment, and value is a thought. ”Quality of life”, is relativity / relative. Then factor in one who is well aware of this comes accross someone who is suicidal, and so they tell a story about how “you’d just be starting over”, or “you lived many lives to get to this point, keep going!”. It’s just hard to spot a story in a story. “Understanding” = Infinite Humor, like a punchline “needs” the setup. Without “understanding”, there is no inner & outer world, only crystalline emptiness, thoughtless and without movement.

@Aakash Thats a wonderful and true realization. The first part I mean. I personally believe the Buddha reached full enlightenment but of course we cant know for an absolute fact. I don't internally have doubt (related to the second fetter funny enough) in it because I think that all lack of seeing the truth comes from selfishness in one way shape or form. Selfishness, individuation, all come from fetters 1 through 9. But you are absolutely correct that there is no way to know for sure. What we can know is that the buddhas path of dissolving the ten fetters through the eightfold path is what all three of us could use to grow. I don't worry about there being no absolute end, because I'm content in my journey. I know what issues I have to work on and am in that process. It's possible that I dissolve all ten fetters and realize there is more, but I think its best for us to focus on our journey and not try to speculate on what the supposed end will be like without us reaching it. But I do feel you, those feelings you are having are a natural part of the uncertainty to life that everyone feels. It is a very natural and human way to feel.

Exactly. Soooo... then full enlightenment is what?

@Salvijus No cravings I mean no conscious or subconscious tendencies. The capacity itself to feel tendencies and vasanas. It goes very, very, very deep. You know how non dual teacher say emotions arise but their let go of easily. That’s just a calm state in which all your issues still remain. They just don’t stick. The complete cessation of such arisings. Reactions, and issues In an absolute way is what I call full enlightenment. Ive done a lot of practices. Started with ashtanga, and hatha, then Raja, a number of extreme breathing techniques, breath of fire, kriyas, number of gurus, everything really lol, and they each helped me. Great tools, but don’t attribute any of them to my either my awakening nor the process afterward. The place you are coming from, your intention, your perspective, your view, self honesty, awareness and genuinity matter far more. There are lessons you are here to learn. Are you learning them or averting your eyes. Trying to escape and live in a fantasy world. Practices can make you study faster, but if you are not even on the right chapter they can’t take you where you need to go. Hence the buddhas emphasis on the 8 fold path.

@Salvijus The Buddha and Theravada Buddhism. He is the only person that emphasises the end of craving, and all fear as full enlightenment. Whom I believe to be fully enlightened. I mostly use the buddhas teachings to make sense of what’s happening to me though. Practice wise. I dont really have a practice. My energetic process happens by itself, and is always quite intense. Meditation doesn’t even help anymore. I stopped meditating a while ago. Used to meditate 4-6 hours a day though at one point. Asides from the Buddha and Theravada Buddhism. Zen Buddhism is kind of good but now where near as nuanced and detailed. Very one dimensional. The last modern teacher that helped me, whose teachings I found helpful was sheng yen. That was a while ago.

@Leo Gura full enlightenment isnt really a fantasy since if there are degrees of depth of nonduality then there is a complete enlightenment, when all subconcious fears are released,that is considereed complete enlightenment. and yes i do know its a tall order, ive been stablized in nonduality for 4 years and have been doing mostly zen practices to embody the truth more deeply (releasing the subconcious fears). and i do agree with you that psychedelics can aid in many ways, as ive said energetic amplifiers have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path i feel like dealing with psychs is a bit like playing with fire, it can amplify blindspots and thus the process of dissolution becomes more rockier, depending on how well your foundation is of course.