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@Javfly33 Can you grasp WHY nothingness is aware? I know it is, but I wanna know more, It is too magical not to be curious you know?

Yes. If everyone was at an advanced enough stage of enlightenment it would be as if the earth was one giant collective consciousness. Think of the ideal family who's values align so perfectly that there is never any issues. Now extend that family to everyone on the planet. At an advanced enough stage of enlightenment, all resistance to what is ceases. The duality between selfishness and selflessness is shattered. The idea of doing anything to harm another person seems ridiculous. The idea of taking from others to suit yourself seems counterproductive, because everyone IS you. Once you realize your groundless nature and your identity becomes completely fluid, it makes more sense to abide as the entire earth rather than as an individual. You don't have to tell someone not to cut off their own arm haha. Anyone who claims "full" enlightenment doesn't come with complete morality simply hasn't reached a high enough stage of enlightenment. Enlightenment is different for everyone though. Morality is simply one aspect of awakening, just like an awakening into equanimity, infinite intelligence, or nothingness.

@OBEler well, I started with psychedelics with the idea of transcending the ego, and all this horror was obviously the ego struggling not to be transcended, so I saw in it a perfect tool. If you think about it objectively, there is not so much to fear, it is true that there is the possibility of very intense fear, but the mind knows how to adapt and it is quickly forgotten. In addition, each experience is one more step in the understanding of the ego. instead, the possible benefits are enormous: liberation. I'm not saying it's at that point, but the difference from when I started is big. What changed? At first you can't even imagine what is an ego death, after you start to get used to give up . The nothingness is purity

Absolute infinity is no more than a concept just like absolute nothingness in the sense that neither can be experienced. That's the nature of experience. For experience to even exist, there must be a finite aspect to it. But also, there must be SOME aspect to it to experience, even if it's just experience itself. That's why you can't experience absolute nothingness, because absolute nothingness is absolutely nothing, including the lack of experience itself. BUT you can intuitively know that your true nature is both absolute infinity and absolute nothingness. The duality between the two collapses. They're two sides of the same coin. Your true nature is beyond even experience. It's the invisible (invisible not just by sight but by all senses including the sense of being) infinite intelligence that even allows experience to exist. Solipsism itself doesn't NEED to be a truth just as the concept of a flying spaghetti monster doesn't need to be a truth. In fact, because both are language, they CANNOT be truth. Both exist as concepts but no more. The philosophy of solipsism is useful because can POINT to what is. Essentially solipsism is an incomplete description of the subjective experience just as any definition of God is an incomplete description of God. Your true nature is completely non dual - neither solipsistic nor not solipsistic. For most people, though, it helps to work on a more solipsistic view, because for most people that's the opposite side of the coin. Most people are too caught up in the paradigm that every sentient being has a separate mind and experience.

I've found contemplating the difference between somethingness and nothingness to be more effective. It can lead you to realize that there is no such thing as death. You've been sitting in the same spot for eternity, in pure emptiness.

I took part in a year long online group reading of Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson in 2017. Being that it was a small group, it became an atmosphere where we sometimes shared our inner world along with our self observations. It was all saved to Google Drive. The following is what I shared at the end of chapter 43. Thoughts on empathy and compassion in relation to Spiral Dynamics. I’m not claiming what I wrote was spot on. I’m sharing it as just food for thought. Anyone feel free to give an opinion or question me. DS - More on not expressing negative emotions. I mentioned in one post about the ‘payment’ I felt when achieving this aim in a time of stress. It feels like resolving a disparity in a small puzzle piece of my shadow. On the other side is specific kinds situations in which I continually fail. When I become more than just dismayed and disgusted at my inability to stay awake, a big shift can take place if it causes me to see and feel my own nothingness. The nothingness of my personality/ego self. Regarding The Tales being overweight in Patriarchy, misogyny, and other biases against the feminine. I've been pondering on the second tier of Spiral Dynamics as being Gurdjieffs intended territory of destination for his persistent readers. The first level encountered in the second tier is yellow. It has a multiperspectival approach to learning and gathering information and living in general. The yellow individual is more interested in understanding accurately someone's view than they are in labeling it. This multi-perspectival kind of awareness is key. It turns every offensive or seemingly ignorant perspective into a curiosity or a mystery to figure out or understand why it is that people perceive the way they do. But this requires the kind of impartiality that Gurdjieff is talking about. Enduring an injustice,,,, or being emotionally abused and tormented by someone for months or maybe years. Being ridiculed,,,,ostracized ,,,, and mocked. These situations grow us in terms of 'being', faster than anything. That is, if one isn't traumatized beyond recoverability. But at the same time, the amount of intensity needs to be enough for one to be pushed into a kind of state that one has never experienced before. This experience reveals more of what being 'identified' is about. This is a part of second tier awareness. That's where green and yellow differ in terms of emotional suffering in connection with wanting to be a protector and an advocate of compassion for all apparently disadvantaged beings. From outward appearances green looks more 'spiritual' than yellow. That's because yellow has more impartiality that can be interpreted by some as cold and detached. People in yellow are not as apt to experience the feeling of pity toward others because they realize it perpetuates unnecessary suffering and is an attitude declaring the Divine to be inept. In the second tier it seems pity is completely replaced by empathy.

If my experience is of any use to you, for me nothingness, infinity, call it whatever you want, it was absolute horror, death, and now it seems to me the most wonderful. the difference is in me, not in the infinity obviously, and that difference has been produced in about 4 months thanks to this substance. it's an amazing catalyst.

Nothingness is usually experienced as fear, as the mind mistakes death for something real. If you keep being conscious as you fear, what the fear is in reality, it is just the experience of being rapidly aware of something. It appears as there is nothing there, but if you keep at it, you will understand what that "thing" is. In the many "nothings" that I've experienced, none of them were experienced as a loss after I died. On the contrary, all it requires is to give up beliefs about the world and see for yourself what really is true.

Love is the wormhole to God, since God is Love. Replace your fear with Love. Love truth, reality, and consciousness so much that you forget all about fear of nothingness or death. That is the way.

Nothingness was a recognition that occurred when the sense of self that casted meaning and value onto everything died. What remained was an incredible empty happening.

@Endangered-EGO Ego curling up has some kind of content in it, usually like a void, it is the ego trying to escape some kind of suffering that it believes it cannot handle. Nothingness is the nothing that is everything. There is no expirence, execpt the Nothingness. Everything you expirence is expirenced as the Nothingness. Emotions are like vortexs yes. The fear is a reaction to something about your ideas of what Nothingness is. As long as you keep making distinctions between pleasent sensations & unplensent ones it is. Not saying that is easy, just it is useful to notice. There is just the senstations. Ego death doesn't have to be painful & fearful, it is just that we usually associate death with those things. The ego will of course want you to think that it is going to be horrifing, because it doesn't want you to realize that it was all a made up fiction.

if i'm god, why do i feel like i'm just a human? and don't tell me that that's what your parents told you, because they're an illusion too right?. Why don't i just exist as god/nothingness/consciousness/whatever and that's it. why do i have to meditate or watch some video to realize that? isn't god not bound by time? maybe what i'm asking is why does this illusion exist, and to realize that you have to go to some country and get fuked by a zen master to realize that! Why all this drama? i really wanna make sense of this but i can't. and i know that i can't make sense of this by thinking about it because thinking is just more dreaming... BUT WHY??? why the fuk is it this why and not another why? (Please don't look at this as multiple questions, try to see the full picture of what i'm trying to ask). (and if you're gonna answer this question by telling me that my senses aren't sharp enough or some bullshit like that. YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE POINT). (and of course the question isn't really "If" i'm god, i'm not questioning that fact, i'm not newbie i've watched so many of @Leo Gura videos for many years so this enlightenment is not new to me).

@OctagonOctopus Well the trauma was in reaction to eternity while being high. The next 6 months where I experienced it, I would describe it as the nothingness without love. It is exactly what is described: eternity, reality being a dream, nothing has substance, no self, no other (all alone). It came at random moments during the day, at the gym, while eating, in class etc. The first time was terrifying, but afterwards it was mostly empty. The fear of it also didn't show up after I stopped experiencing it regularly. Fear of other things came afterwards. I am really not sure. You know that love can elevate your concentration towards something, it's easier to focus on a pleasant sensation than on a neutral one. Fear also absorbs you into what you fear, the more you fear it the more intense it gets, the more you fear it. What's the difference for you between ego curl up and nothingness?

The nothingness you expirenced could have actaully been a trauma reaction where the ego bascially curls up into a ball and shuts everything out & not Nothingness. Emotions are based on concepts and beliefs, emotions are reactions to the concepts that are constucting your entire sense of self & reality. Torturing the mind? What do you mean? The greatest love you can do for yourself is to realize fully what you really are.

@Leo Gura what about the nothingness part? why even bother to take 5-MEO-DMT and do the work if I can just look at a cactus and the cactus is God.

That is what iam pointing to, that this is nothing cause LITERAL NOTHING does not exist. Atleast thats how i see it. This nothing=something. so they are one and the same. i just mean that existence IS. even if it can " seem" " non existent" it is actually existence. GOD is nothingness in that sense, always been always will be in one way or another.

An Empty Answer "You want me to “say more” about nothingness. Could anything be more paradoxical for the reader than to try to understand “nothing”? Why? Because most people start from the conviction that there is something which does exist; if nothing more, at least “me”. So, you will not likely appreciate nothingness unless you have come to realization through advaita. At least we will, then, begin without the assumption that a “me” really exists. But even for the realized advatin, there will almost certainly be a presumption that “something” exists in the realm of reality. Even “reality”. Advaita points to ajata, and ajata is about nothingness, or emptiness. The Diamond Sutra of Buddhism, points exclusively to it. Hui Neng, the Sixth Chinese Patriarch, declares flatly: ‘There is nothing from the start.” These sources, among others, set your foot on the path, but recognize that most people are then going to immediately be lost. I have written clearly about advaita, and several have understood what I’ve said. I have spoken, to some of these, about what lies beyond the “Absolute,” and a couple have understood. So I will try to explain it, as best I can. The “ultimate condition” (if any) is nothingness, the complete “absence” of anything—no thing, of any possible description. The (approximate) comprehension of this would be to conceive of “emptiness”, as the emptiness of which not anything could be emptied; pure unassociated emptiness, and not even an emptiness which is within some imagined boundaries. The word “void” could be applied; but this “actuality” is not void of something—in any positive sense. So the nothingness of which we speak is totally empty, free of any subtlety which could even be envisioned. Hence there is not anything “within” it that can be subject to any kind of movement, or even change. Not anything can “come from” nothingness, nor “return” to it. It is not the “origin” of anything. In fact, it could not be applicable to say that it exists, or does not exist. Thus we can’t say that this is the “beginning” condition or the “ending” condition. At best, we could say that (if it were “existent”) it would be the ever-present condition. Yet, it is not an abstraction: its presence is “eternal”. “In” its presence are supposed creatures, and the world and universe they seem to inhabit. But all of these supposed things are “in” nothingness. They have not appeared from nothingness, or out of nothingness, or because of nothingness. In fact, they have not actually “appeared”, except as nothingness. The creatures take their reality, their “existence”, for granted; and thus also the reality or existence of the world and its universe—not knowing that they are nothing. The assumption is: ‘There was a time when I didn’t exist, a time when I existed, and a time when I will no longer exist”. But there are no such times. Not anything has ever “existed”, from the standpoint of nothingness. In nothingness, there is no “time”. What makes this so difficult to understand, is that because we say that “I have existed”, we conclude that there is some thing. And indeed we look around and say there are other things, such as a world or a universe. But the presumption that there was a time when I did not exist (or do; or will not exist) is false: no arising, abiding or decaying exists in nothingness. In other words, not anything “happens” in nothingness. “We” are nothing, the “world” is nothing, the “universe” is nothing. In nothingness, there is neither existence nor nonexistence. There is only nothing. From the standpoint of nothingness, no questions can arise. We can not ask for, nor expect, an explanation: not anything ever happens, in nothingness. The value of this understanding is that not anything really matters. Even understanding this does not matter. All is emptiness. That is the “empty” answer. The scriptures speak of one who is in sahaja samadhi as having “no mind” or an “empty mind”. It is this appreciation of nothingness that is referred to. Contemplation on Emptiness Ajata has the same basis as advaita. Instead of pointing out that all things are the Absolute, ajata asks the question, “What is true nature of the Absolute”? The Absolute’s nature is empty of any qualities whatsoever: It is emptiness. Any name which we have given to anything tells us that it is a form, and that means that this form has simply been given its identity by thought. Even the notion of “existence” itself depends upon a mind to give it acknowledgement as a particular quality. But does a mind actually exist? In advaita, we have been saying that all manifestations are the Absolute. In ajata, we’re going further and saying that the Absolute is empty. All manifestations, of whatever kind, are empty. Advaita says that the Absolute is all that is. Ajata says there’s not even the Absolute. Ajata is just a matter of going beyond the idea of the Absolute, recognizing that it is no thing, nothing. Advaita teaches that you are not real. And ajata, that all that is seen is not real either. If the self is you, there is one you. If the mind is you, there are two yous. Can the mind exist without you? To know that the self is empty, and that there is no I, does not prevent the organism from living out its apparent role. To the extent that we have had a dream, we say that it is “real”. But as a tangible form or object, we know that it is not real. When you dream, dream figures are present. But upon waking, you do not inquire into the health or activities of the dream figures. When we know that we do not exist, nor does the world, there is not anything which needs to be changed or improved. If in a dream someone told you “Don’t believe anything you see going on here—it’s all simply being presented to fool you”, would you take this to be the truth? Every thought is about something which the mind has given a name to. What is the value of a thought when we can know that every name is simply an arbitrary creation? When you know that ‘what is’ is not, does this have an important impact on how you live your life? Emptiness is as important a factor in your life, as your life is to you. In advaita, we say you are not who you think you are. In ajata, we say not anything is as it appears to be. Emptiness is not form: it is the condition which indicates that form does not exist as it appears to. There are no forms in our deep sleep. Emptiness is there. We have to use words—which are unreal—to explain emptiness. We must talk about forms, in order to indicate their emptiness. But, in reality, there are no forms. The face in the mirror appears to really be a face. But it is empty of true existence. Foolishly would we attempt to defend its realness. When we speak of emptiness, we are saying that something is empty. That is the role of the “something”, to be empty. But if all things are empty, where is emptiness? Emptiness does not “exist”. The I does not truly exist. It appears to exist. So—from the standpoint of its appearance—we say that it “exists”. But, from the standpoint of truth, we say that it does not exist. There is not anything which your mind is apart from: everything depends on your mind. And yet, your mind is simply one of those things. Empty yourself of all ideas of ‘what is’ and/or ‘what is not’. Where there is no I, there is no other-than-I. As surely as you know that there’s no I, you know that there’s no thing. Advaita says you are the Absolute. When the seeker (you) and the sought (Absolute) disappear into each other, what is left? Nothing. In the same way, ajata’s teaching is that emptiness itself is empty. Even emptiness does not truly exist. This is why, in advaita, it’s said that there is not anything to realize. There is not any thing that is real. And what is not real cannot arise to become existent. Anything which could arise into existence must be caused. But all causes themselves are empty, as are any other phenomenon. Only if phenomena were real would we need to explain its “existence” or lack of it. The philosophy of nihilism does not apply here. There is no truly existent self that can hold any view. In advaita, we often speak of the dualities, such as me and you, right and wrong. In ajata, no dualities exist as real, from the start. A sky must exist in a space. A space needs something to define it. Each is dependent upon another for its reality. As independent realities, neither can exist. Except for there being the cause of form, Form would not be seen. Except for there being what we call “form,” The cause of form would not appear either. —Nagarjuna Taking yourself to be more than an appearance, you assume your world is real also, and more than an appearance. But a non-existent you can only be seeing a non-existent world. We establish a presumed universe, and then ask “How can we say that this is a void?” Impermanence means that everything is in change constantly, moment by moment. No thing, in fact truly exists as a fixed “thing”, at any time. If there is a time that had a beginning somewhere, then time can come to an end. Time, then, is not a lasting reality. Since you do not exist, you cannot ask, “How am I here?”, because in reality you aren’t. You appear to be real, to an unreal you—as the you in a dream takes its reality for granted. If you were in deep sleep, where “you” and your “mind” do not appear;, and the heart stopped: would you know that you had died? Come to know that there is no death, and therefore nothing after it (especially a sensate “individual”) and you will end such questions as “what comes after death?” If there were a non-emptiness of emptiness, it would be where we impute any qualities to emptiness. An actor can have the knowledge that he is not real, and that the character whose role he is playing has never been, and yet he can play out the role he is living as his life. When you “get” emptiness, you need not concern yourself about anything that preceded emptiness. The world is a dream. You who say it exists is saying so within that dream. A figure in a dream is entertained by a magic-show world. What becomes of the dream figure and the world when the dream ends? When you close your eyes for the last time, this will all disappear. The slate will be wiped clean. You may say, “But it will be there for others”. No: the others disappear with you, not anything remains. So is the world real or did it appear when you opened your eyes—and ends when you die? If the world is not real, are you real? Any answers we can get to erroneous questions, will be erroneous answers. The world is an illusion. Yet here it is—as an illusion. You say the mind is real because we both experience it. No, if it were real we would both have the same experience of the mind. And if the world were real, we would both have the same experience of the world. Anything that’s real must be real to both of us in the same way. Since there is no self, there is no mind. And because there is no mind, there is no perception or consciousness of a world or universe. There are, therefore, no legitimate questions about anything. “No mind” is the consequence of the realization of emptiness. Emptiness tells us that there’s not anything we need to get. Anything we could get would be empty. The getter itself is empty. Where there is nothing we need to get, there is nothing we can become. All that could remain is to be as you are—empty. When you get to nothing, there’s no further to go. When you can end all of your problems—as well as the world’s—peacefully, why concern yourself with how that came about? Do the wise abide somewhere between self and no-self? The wise do not abide. If you insist on having a meaningful explanation, then you’re not understanding emptiness. “Phenomenon” are not empty because of emptiness. Emptiness is what phenomenon are. “Nothing can come from nothing.” —Lucret - Ajata Project Robert Wolfe

That’s not what you’re pointing to imo. You are using the accepted definition of nothingness which does not align with what he is saying as he is using a completely different definition. “so truth is that everything IS and will always BE.” Dude, go grab a piece of paper and a lighter. Take the THING that IS your piece of paper. Right now, it’s a thing. Right now, it IS. Use your lighter to catch the paper on fire. Soon you’ll have some ashes in front of you. Is that thing that was the piece of paper still IS’ing anymore? No. The piece of paper is completely eradicated from your direct experience. There is a different thing now IS’ing in front of you. The ashes. Is the paper still IS’ing out there in some unverifiable spirit realm designated for college-ruled papers only? Maybe. That’s the only shot the paper has at still BE’ing. You’ll likely never know one way or the other. If everything, literally separate the two words for simplicity in understanding, there’s every and thing. Every = all. Thing = any object, person, place, etc. Every thing will certainly not always BE. The very nature of the reality is for things to constantly be morphing into other things which constantly makes the previous forms no longer existent. Existence IS. Yes, you’re right. There’s no opposite to it? There’s no way to verify this either way for nonexistence literally, by definition, is the state of not IS’ing.

From the perspective of a nondual experience, you’re right, but these insights lose all value once you use the English language to describe them. In the framework of the English language, which we are using, the statement Experience = Nothingness means as much as taco cat = fat bear. By definition in English, neither is true or makes any sense as things that are clearly not the same are being said to be the same. Now I’m seeing more clearly why spirituality does not make any sense yet is the most true thing there is. No wonder Zen Buddhists used koans to create enlightenment in students. “What is Buddha?” and its answer, “Three pounds of flax.” Makes just as much sense as Experience = Nothingness

Thats what iam pointing to, just that the NOTHINGNESS iam speaking about, is non existent. so the Truth would be that, TRULY NON EXISTENT is not possible. so truth is that everything IS and will always BE.' then we can conclude that nothing=something. Existence IS and there is no opposite to it, non existence exists as non existent.

I think you are spot on except for this bit: “So to me it makes more sense thqt conciousness can assume the form of literal nothingness but it can also assume thr form of Infinite Imagination and infinite Mind.” Edit: Of course Leo beats me to this by 1 fucking minute while I’ve been typing out my response for some time lol. You say nothingness has form here. You say that consciousness (which is something) can be nothingness. Think man. That makes absolutely no sense. A form is something. A shape is something. The shape of consciousness changes constantly, but it does always have a shape nonetheless. If you’re in a box, the shape of consciousness is of a human being in the dark in a box. You also started talking about how consciousness cannot be nothingness as consciousness is something. You’re right. I’ve had the insight that this (existence) is nothing. This insight is essentially a word game and nothing else no matter how real it seemed to me, and it appears some others, at the time of the insight. Of course you can experience consciousness free from any beliefs or language used to describe it, and in this state it doesn’t really matter which label (something vs. nothing) you apply to it. The problem comes when you try to use tools like language or thought to describe that state. The tools simply cannot get the job done adequately. Go watch/practice Leo’s latest YouTube video if you want to understand this. It will get you into the state I’m referring to. Anyone arguing for the verifiable existence of nothingness, an experience of nothingness, or emptiness is clearly not using these words properly. Right now, we are having a discussion using the English language, so we have to be cognizant of that. We can’t use words in ways that are against their denotations and connotations and expect anyone to get value from that. The only time that the statement “this is nothing” is true is when the statement “this is something” is equally as true. This occurs in the state I referred to without beliefs, thoughts, labels, or anything else being used as a backstory or explanation of consciousness. As soon as you apply the backstory that we’re currently using to have this discussion, the only true thing to say is that there is always something and never nothing as far as we will ever be able to verify with our direct experience. When you experience what you interpret to be nothingness, there is always something, and that thing is experience. You cannot verify something without using some degree of experience, so there could be such a thing as nothingness. The problem is that no being in this reality or any reality will be able to verify nothingness. In conclusion, nothingness can only exist in our imagination, and even then, that thing that we are imagining is not nothingness. It’s the imagination of what we think nothingness might be like. In the past I’ve suggested on here that nonexistence or nothingness is actually the only place where truth can be found. This can be realized when you ask yourself the question “Is Truth static or is it always changing?” Jed McKenna argues that truth is that that does not change. This seems self-evident to many people. If this is correct, nonexistence is the perfect, unadulterated Truth for nothing does not change. There is nothing that can be changed when there is only nothing, but this is only ever a version of armchair philosophy rather than something that can be verified with direct experience. If your answer to the question above is that truth is always changing, then go no further. You’re already swimming in Truth. Consciousness is always changing, and it certainly exists as you are consciousness. Therefore, my ultimate conclusion is that the argument for consciousness being Truth wins as it can be armchair philosophized as well as experienced directly whereas true or total nothingness can never be experienced.

Here you've already fucked up. Infinite Nothingness is NOT zero colors and zero consciousness. It is precisely all colors and your present experience. Stop thinking that Nothingness is lack of experience. Experience = Nothingness Nothingness is identical to somethingness. If you distinguish nothing from something, that is duality.

Knowledge of Solipsism, existence, or not existence and your parents comes from so called “I”. The biggest issue is belief of “I”. Enlightenment is dropping the “I”. So there is no problem too, do you see? Definitely. Whatever “you” “believe” and “experience “ thats “your truth”. However, enlightenment does not depend on personal experience nor belief, it is identical for everyone. Nothingness can not “be experienced”, can just “be”. Therefore identical for “everyone “ and doesn’t depend on experience or belief. Just go deeper. “You” will love it?❤️ As you see, you are contradicting yourself. Additionally, there is no such a thing as exist or not exist. Have a direct experience Brother.

Existence = conciousness = experience The experience and experiencer is the same. But the thing is, ive also recognized that iam part of GOD and at some level of " my self" im 100 % formless GOD which is imagining every fucking thing possible. GOD MIND = infinite imagination GOD True state = pure empty conciousness. so nothing = everything. because conciousness is " nothing" it can BE ALL. this is from my own direct experience. But im not at that awakening depth that you are at brother James. But like Leo says, there is an incredible amount of " awakenings" " states" of conciousness. and it is possible because conciousness is that which can display anything. But i still seen that GOD is reality.. the best word i can use for it , is GOD. 1 infinite being= nothingness= pregnant with all that IS. it is literaly incomprehensible to us how truly powerful GOD is.. God is all, both the " experience" and the thing which is experiencing.. on all levels, on nothing and infinite mind realization, it goes on forever. and why we can realize this different facets of GOD and awakening is because we are IT. We are an " neuron" in gods "brain" As above so below.. sure this sounds alot of mental maturbation and im open to being wrong about alot of it. but my awakenings is the Truth for me. and this is what ive been experiencing.

Empty conciousness is not nothingness. Nothing is no existence, no conciousness. So the nothing don't exist, because always it's an empty conciousness, a potentiality