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@Leo Gura full enlightenment isnt really a fantasy since if there are degrees of depth of nonduality then there is a complete enlightenment, when all subconcious fears are released,that is considereed complete enlightenment. and yes i do know its a tall order, ive been stablized in nonduality for 4 years and have been doing mostly zen practices to embody the truth more deeply (releasing the subconcious fears). and i do agree with you that psychedelics can aid in many ways, as ive said energetic amplifiers have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path i feel like dealing with psychs is a bit like playing with fire, it can amplify blindspots and thus the process of dissolution becomes more rockier, depending on how well your foundation is of course.

@Serotoninluv you have a hand, if you self describe yourself as having a hand is that wrong? im awake to nonduality but not fully enlightened, doesnt go against nondual truth at all actually, its kinda paradoxical like that.

@Leo Gura ive used psychedelics and benefited greatly from them, ive awoken to nonduality because of these substances and so i show my gratitude for that. However, many people including some gurus think that awakening and full enlightenment are synonomus with each other, when that couldnt be farther from the truth. Your limbic system has to catch up to the awakening by the slow process of dissolving subconcious fear mechanisms and attahcments running away from said fear mechanisms. Why i say at a certain point psychedelics are risky bussiness for a persons spiritual path is because the mere fact that the person is going through the process of dissolving attachments, goes against what many people do which is the subconcious chase of nondual experiences through psychedelics. now there isnt anything wrong with that for seeking purposes, but once awakened and you stabilize for a while psychedelics become more pointless ime and other peoples experience that ive talked to. energetic amplifiers have so much benefit im not denying that, but we are humans and we have egoic blindspots, and giving those blindspots an energetic amplifier will only make your process to enlightenment more rocky or more likely too. you can still use it as a tool sure, but based on what ive said i think its a flawed tool at a certain point, and there are more conductive ways of going through your spiritual process.

@Enlightenment yes, enlightenment is not an easy ordeal, its a process that takes time and patience. awakening to nonduality is the easy part, removing the delusional thorns from your subconcious is the hard part. look up shunryu zen master, he has work that talks about this.

@Nahm no problem. a person awake to nonduality shouldnt feel wrong about talking about progress, its a natural part of this life were living, and awakening to the beyond is something benefecial indeed and is tied to enlightenment but isnt full enlightenment for the mere fact that all youre life youve been putting memory after memory of fear driven delusion in your subconcious mind, and fear and nonduality are not congruent as a result, fear and the egoic paradigm it drives, dissolves in the face of true nonduality.

Thanks. I have to say though, that is a weird definition. If you inquire into the meaning behind it, you’ll arrive back at nonduality.

all that you described is awakening, NOT enlightenment. Enlightenment is a very real thing. enlightenment is when your limbic sytem catches up with the awakening and clears all subconcious fears and the attachments that try running away from. many people that just awoke to nonduality think that thats it, but they couldnt be farther from the truth, their reality will start to crumble because all their egoic paradigms will slowly be released, which can hurt. since fear is not synonomous with enlightenment, dont convince yourself your enlightened when youre not, youre just awakened to nonduality, there millions that are, but very few that are fully enlightened.

@Matt8800 as ive said in the post, psychedelics are good tools for awakenings but NOT full enlightenment. ive had my first nondual awakening through psychs and i thank their purpose in my path, but at a certain point once youve been stabilized in nonduality sober for many years, youll see that the subconcious need for psychedelic or mystical experiences is just another attachment to be dropped, extreme and fancy experiences will never get you to enlightenment, only give u a fancy awakening. but full enlightenment is a slow delicate process of your limbic system catching up with the awakening.

@Nahm awakening to nonduality is one thing, ive been in nonduality for 4 years without psychs (though awakened by psychs). and the process that your limbic system undergoes after the awakening is a whole nother thing. this is what seperates a zen master and a random dude on a forum who just convinces himself that he has no fear anymore because he just awoke to nonduality. one is humble enough to realize that his subconcious mind is going through a process of cleansing fear mechanisms, the other wants to hold on to the truth of nonduality and not look at the reality of the process.

@Aquarius ive said they are tools in the post, but im saying if youd like to advance in the spiritual path, you cannot be using psychedelics as a conductive tool anymore at a certain point, the mere subconcious need for mystical or cool experiences for it comes from attachment and thus underlying fear mechanisms, a person in nonduality has no need for a psychedelic experience and would in fact blunt the process that their system is going through. its a good tool as a starting spiritual tool like i said, as it helped me alot aswell, and it awoke me to nonduality, but psych experiences are perverted by many emotions that are amplified, and as humans we should be humble enough to realize that we have blindspots, and giving our blindspots an energetic amplifier is a bad idea, especially if you are on the path. but some tools are more conductive than others. would you use a fancy looking hammer to build your house or would you use a hammer thats most conductive to building the house? you can choose whatever hammer you want at the end of the day, but like i said, at a certain point in the path psychedelic use is not conductive for full enlightenment. and enlightenment is not a tool... tool for what exactly? enlightenment is the clearing of all fear mechanisms and their attachments, basically all of your ego, its not something your ego can take advantage of. some people mistake awakening as enlightenment when that couldnt be farther from the truth. enlightenment is when your limbic system catches up with your awakening, by clearing all subconcious energetic contractions. also your post makes alot of condescending assumptions/projections, i dont appreciate that.

@Recursoinominado tell a person with borderline personality disorder to surrender, not gonna happen so easily my friend, not everyone is on the same level playing field concerning their energetic contractions. sorry but seems like you havent had much experience with other peoples kundalini experiences, i had people get fucked over messing around with kundalini energy when they werent ready for it or just plain out not their right path. energetic manipulation is no funny bussiness, it can seriously wreck some peoples lives. should be taken with caution. alot of peoples energetic system cannot deal with this type of energy, you speak from your reference point alot but deny the fact that many people dont "surrender" as easily as you think. Ive been stable in nonduality for many years so i dont have to awaken my kundalini, and hate to burst your bubble but any emotional/mental formations within consciousness is considered ultimately delusional, including your communication with your "higher self" or your conception of god, and synchronisties, it is just another attachment to be dropped.

@Rilles @Rilles spira isnt fully enlightened, but is awake to nonduality, there is a difference really, he is in a deep nondual state though i believe. dont feel like talking about the difference tbh cuz i talked about it before in the thread, sorry for my laziness lol

@Esoteric Again, awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. ive been stabilized in nonduality for 4 years now, but your limbic system has to catch up to the awakening by clearing ALL fear mechanisms and the attachments that try to run away from it. only then and only then, can you be considered enlightened. before that you are just awake to nonduality, because there are still veils of delusion that cover your experience, which is incongruent to the nature of nonduality.

@Rilles pretty much sums it up haha. at a certain point in peoples path they realize the pointlessness of the subconcious chasing or want of mystical nondual experiences. you awake to nature, then your limbic system goes through a process which catches up with nature, thus harmonizes with the awakening and complete nonduality or enlightenment is realized.

during the early stages of awakening the ego can misinterpret nonduality and use it as an escape or be lazy or whatever subconcious egoic dream u have, due to lack of depth in the nondual experience itself. once awakened to nonduality, your limbic system goes through a process of uncontraction, and this process can be disrorienting because your ego is basically in a triggered-release cycle until all fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from those fears are completely absent from ur system, once thats happened, you are considered to be fully enlightened. i would say try reflecting on what you are trying to run away from, and then once that fear is exposed, then can clearly see its delusional (because you awoke to nonduality), dont try to escape or do anything though, just recognize the unreality of these fears and attachments. your energetic system will purge it out when its due. I suggest reading or watching sheng yen's videos on youtube, he has helpful videos concerning this process.

I purposely stopped watching Leo's videos for a few months because I realized that Leo's content was having a bad influence on me. Not in the sense that what he's talking about is dangerous, but you have to admit Leo is a very persuasive guy, and his content was making me fall custom to developing new belief systems around Nonduality and my worldview was conceptually switching to nonduality even though that's not possible, but my worldview was shifting to a false, conceptual view of nonduality. People are probably going to reply with how developing ideologies and new belief systems is the wrong way to go about it, and I know. But do you guys think that many people that comment on Leo's videos and most talk in this forum are extremely influenced by leo's views and don't yet have a solid spiritual understanding so they bicker back in forth over their enlightenment ideologies, or what they think about spiral dynamics, etc. etc. etc. I doubt than nearly any spiral dynamics posts were being written before leo made those videos on them. Not trying to like confront people, just curious to think about when viewing the path and how much work we have to put in on our own instead of creating beliefs and what can happen when we don't have spiritual experience but follow our ego's agenda down the spiritual path. (I personally haven't had any major spiritual experiences, just a few short glimpses.)

@Esoteric Yes, I am aware that psychedelics can be benefical for some people, but for a person who is undergoing the process of clearing out emotional bubbles, taking an energetic amplifier that amplifies your emotional bubbles (and also facets of consciousness and reality, such as nonduality) is a risky bussiness for someone who isnt seeking anymore and is just going through the process of enlightenment, since awakening to nonduality is one thing, which many gurus you know have done (many mistake this as enlightenment aswell) but full enlightenment which only occurs when your limbic system catches up with the awakening, is another thing. its a delicate process of releasing fear mechanisms and the attachments you use to battle them. so energetic amplifiers are dangerous in this regard because they make you more suggestible to your own egoic paradigms that you are blind to (the ones you are not blind to however, psychs can help in that regard, depending on if youre genuine or not). and if blindspots are amplified, your process to enlightenment is gonna be an unneccessarily bumpy ride.

@Esoteric I have never stated that its not relative. and yes i do agree with you about the benefits you stated, i stated them aswell in my post. ive used psychedelics for many times responsibly (and uresponsibily) and helped my path indeed, i never deny that. However, i have been in nonduality for over 4 years and at this point in my path, me taking a psychedelic is very pointless because for one; I dont feel the need to chase or experience nondual states anymore, or have a very wowzer mystical experience, since the subconcious need for it is just another attachment and fear mechanism that im clearing out anyway. i think anyone whos been stable in nonduality for a while knows that taking energetic amplifiers at their point in the path would blunt the limbic system process thats occuring after awakening to nonduality. awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process that occurs after in your limbic system which clears your fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist it, is another thing. and this process should be respected and taken with consideration, energetic amplifiers can make you see through some fear mechanisms, but humans have many blindspots, and you dont want a blindspot to be amplified so much so that its even a bigger blindspot now.

@Joseph Maynor awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process that your limbic system undergoes after the awakening is another thing. the process by which it clears fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from those fears, since fear is delusional to a person awoke to nonduality. many misunderstand that enlightenment comes with awakening, they couldnt be farther from the truth however, its only the mere start, full enlightenment is when your limbic system catches up with the awakening. I suggest reading or watching some of sheng yen's work, and also shun ryu, both are buddhist monk masters who have been stable in nonduality for many years, but they have the guts to admit that they arent fully enlightened yet, unlike many other gurus.

@Salvijus Like I said, psychedelics can awaken a person to nonduality, but awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. your energetic system which has a memory of fear mechanisms and attachments has to catch up to the awakening. only then can that be full enlightement. because how can you be truly nondual when fear mechanisms are still in your subconcious mind? a cleansing process of your limbic system has to take place for full enlightenment. Psychedelics, being energetic amplifiers by their nature, amplify your consciousness which can lead to nondual awakening and also other things such as dealing with trauma and having new perspectives, but they also amplify your emotional bubbles ALOT, and humans by nature have egoic blindspots, especially during psychedelic experiences because everything is just amplified to a ridiculous degree. All emotion and their thought patterns are based off of fear mechanisms in your subconious mind. when you awaken to nonduality, you realize fear is delusion, thus, the process of uncontracting your limbic system of fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist them, start to take place. Also, you shouldnt take any Guru's word just because he says hes enlightened. many gurus awoke to nonduality and stabilized for many years but they dont admit that they arent fully enlightened either, i mean, you can clearly see that sadghuru still plays egoic games such as arrogance and also you can see anxiety in him in some interviews, this does not indicate a fully enlightened man, although he is in a very deep nondual state i have to say, its just that he hasnt dealt with alot of his issues and him being a guru and being attached to that identity kind of stops him from seeing his issues. I have been in nonduality for 4 years, enlightenment is not instatenous, awakening is however. the veils that cover reality slowly uncover from your subconcious once awakened, only when they are fully gone can you consider yourself fully enlightened.

I smoked 5meo dmt 8 weeks ago and this time it was NNDMT. In the pasted I have smoked NNDMT and it always brings me into a visual wonderland giving me the experience of another world. However this time it was NOT the same, it was exactly what I had experienced on 5meo BUT stronger. Others who I was with all had the typical nndmt experience except for me. What happened next still makes no sense.. I was expecting nn-dmt world but what I got was absolute infinity. I had a pure 5meo-dmt experience Become complete conscious that nothing is real at all Completed mind fucked Life is a dream Realized that everything that I ever thought is real - including myself, my friends, family.. Everything was never real Thought I was going crazy and then I had the thought of killing myself, next thing I realized was that would do nothing I will be back again again again again.. It is all infinite Terrifying, not all spiritual experiences are enjoyable. ALL ONE, nonduality is not always blissful. The ramifications are massive, literally, that means you do not exist at all It felt like every experience I have EVER had and EVERY person I have ever met has been a test for me to experience waking up. I relived my whole life in a split second and then realized it never happened As I began to have thoughts of ego dissolutions and death I then realized that too is all an illusion As the experience was ending I was completed mind fucked and then It hit my minds are an illusion too. That pushed me right back into the experience After that experience, I then smoked again a few hours later. This time I felt like I tapped into some form of universal intelligence (consciousness?). I became fully aware of how the universe is intelligent and conscious. It can not be reduced down into simple rules and formulas. What's been seen can not be unseen now. I can't shake this experience. I have a hard to explaining this experience to anyone, not only because words don't do it justice but also because I start to cry. I have had this peak experience and now what guys? @Leo Gura Have a lot of work to integrate all of this.. Not even sure where to begin, but it has to be done

@Consilience I dont think you read my post if you think im being dogmatic. i already stated they have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path energetic amplifers are not conductive for enlightenment because they amplify the mere thing that everyone on the spiritual path is clearing, which is emotional bubbles which are all based off subconcious fear mechanisms. also, intense and profound experiences have nothing to do with real enlightenment, they can have their purposes in peoples paths though. this is why i say psychs experiences can have benefits such as awakening to nonduality and gives new perspectives (although with alot of amplified emotion which can delude you, and were human, so we have blindspots), doing spiritual work sober is much more conductive than psychedelic experiences, you deal with way less egoic blindspots this way, because psychs amplify emotion and their thought patterns so much so that its very easy to be suggestible to their realities. and the mysticalness and profoundness feelings of all psych experiences come from emotion.

@ivory awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. your energetic system which has a memory of fear mechanisms and attachments has to catch up to the awakening. only then can that be full enlightement. because how can you be truly nondual when fear mechanisms are still in your subconcious mind? a cleansing process of your limbic system has to take place for full enlightenment.

@Shakazulu i feel you. but a word of advice is to read up on the noble 8 fold path by the buddha. it used to seem like total bullshit and just running around to me when i first awoke, but i realized that its a pretty good system for having balance during this process of uncontraction. cuz this process can be pretty disorienting alot of the time due to the nature that we are so used to egoic consciousness and the mere fact that uncontraction means that we are gonna be feeling pain, alot. because attachment is pain, and when u release it its like you're releasing a thorn from your body, it will hurt, but progressively you will be so beat down that all of that stuff is gonna be gone, its like when a person goes through war, he has more resilience towards the pain and suffering of war, with enlightenment the process will eliminate every fear though, and even normal people are going through this process aswell but without their conscious awareness (and usually slower than people awakened to nonduality), life beats down our attachments again and again until we surrender the fight, and running away from fear.

@TheAvatarState I highly doubt it tbh. just the mere fact that we are humans and we have egoic blindspots is enough reason to be very careful with believing that psychs are perfect, because even though people dont really think that, i think many subconciously do. Like i said they have many benefits and they benefited me aswell, but at a certain point energetic amplifiers are not congruent to enlightenment, it just doesnt make any sense to me at my point in the path. anything that makes your emotional bubbles bigger is not enlightenment, enlightenment is the clearing of emotional bubbles, not just awakening to nonduality, awakening to nonduality is the start. but sadly, since many have these fancy nondual experiences on psychs, they think its enlightenment. if you think it takes you straight to enlightenment then are u saying you are stabilized in enlightenment or just with the psych experience? cuz if its just an experience of enlightenment then that doesnt do anything benefecial for me, i already awakened to nonduality, but my system is undergoing systemic changes which is clearing energetic contractions, and giving my system a psychedelic which amplifies bubble contractions is just a bad idea at my point, so this is why im saying psychedelics at a certain point would blunt your progress. has alotta benefits for people starting out for sure but people whove been stabilized in nonduality long enough i think can relate to what i am saying.