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@Esoteric Again, awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. ive been stabilized in nonduality for 4 years now, but your limbic system has to catch up to the awakening by clearing ALL fear mechanisms and the attachments that try to run away from it. only then and only then, can you be considered enlightened. before that you are just awake to nonduality, because there are still veils of delusion that cover your experience, which is incongruent to the nature of nonduality.

@Rilles pretty much sums it up haha. at a certain point in peoples path they realize the pointlessness of the subconcious chasing or want of mystical nondual experiences. you awake to nature, then your limbic system goes through a process which catches up with nature, thus harmonizes with the awakening and complete nonduality or enlightenment is realized.

during the early stages of awakening the ego can misinterpret nonduality and use it as an escape or be lazy or whatever subconcious egoic dream u have, due to lack of depth in the nondual experience itself. once awakened to nonduality, your limbic system goes through a process of uncontraction, and this process can be disrorienting because your ego is basically in a triggered-release cycle until all fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from those fears are completely absent from ur system, once thats happened, you are considered to be fully enlightened. i would say try reflecting on what you are trying to run away from, and then once that fear is exposed, then can clearly see its delusional (because you awoke to nonduality), dont try to escape or do anything though, just recognize the unreality of these fears and attachments. your energetic system will purge it out when its due. I suggest reading or watching sheng yen's videos on youtube, he has helpful videos concerning this process.

@Esoteric Yes, I am aware that psychedelics can be benefical for some people, but for a person who is undergoing the process of clearing out emotional bubbles, taking an energetic amplifier that amplifies your emotional bubbles (and also facets of consciousness and reality, such as nonduality) is a risky bussiness for someone who isnt seeking anymore and is just going through the process of enlightenment, since awakening to nonduality is one thing, which many gurus you know have done (many mistake this as enlightenment aswell) but full enlightenment which only occurs when your limbic system catches up with the awakening, is another thing. its a delicate process of releasing fear mechanisms and the attachments you use to battle them. so energetic amplifiers are dangerous in this regard because they make you more suggestible to your own egoic paradigms that you are blind to (the ones you are not blind to however, psychs can help in that regard, depending on if youre genuine or not). and if blindspots are amplified, your process to enlightenment is gonna be an unneccessarily bumpy ride.

@Esoteric I have never stated that its not relative. and yes i do agree with you about the benefits you stated, i stated them aswell in my post. ive used psychedelics for many times responsibly (and uresponsibily) and helped my path indeed, i never deny that. However, i have been in nonduality for over 4 years and at this point in my path, me taking a psychedelic is very pointless because for one; I dont feel the need to chase or experience nondual states anymore, or have a very wowzer mystical experience, since the subconcious need for it is just another attachment and fear mechanism that im clearing out anyway. i think anyone whos been stable in nonduality for a while knows that taking energetic amplifiers at their point in the path would blunt the limbic system process thats occuring after awakening to nonduality. awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process that occurs after in your limbic system which clears your fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist it, is another thing. and this process should be respected and taken with consideration, energetic amplifiers can make you see through some fear mechanisms, but humans have many blindspots, and you dont want a blindspot to be amplified so much so that its even a bigger blindspot now.

@Joseph Maynor awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process that your limbic system undergoes after the awakening is another thing. the process by which it clears fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from those fears, since fear is delusional to a person awoke to nonduality. many misunderstand that enlightenment comes with awakening, they couldnt be farther from the truth however, its only the mere start, full enlightenment is when your limbic system catches up with the awakening. I suggest reading or watching some of sheng yen's work, and also shun ryu, both are buddhist monk masters who have been stable in nonduality for many years, but they have the guts to admit that they arent fully enlightened yet, unlike many other gurus.

@Salvijus Like I said, psychedelics can awaken a person to nonduality, but awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. your energetic system which has a memory of fear mechanisms and attachments has to catch up to the awakening. only then can that be full enlightement. because how can you be truly nondual when fear mechanisms are still in your subconcious mind? a cleansing process of your limbic system has to take place for full enlightenment. Psychedelics, being energetic amplifiers by their nature, amplify your consciousness which can lead to nondual awakening and also other things such as dealing with trauma and having new perspectives, but they also amplify your emotional bubbles ALOT, and humans by nature have egoic blindspots, especially during psychedelic experiences because everything is just amplified to a ridiculous degree. All emotion and their thought patterns are based off of fear mechanisms in your subconious mind. when you awaken to nonduality, you realize fear is delusion, thus, the process of uncontracting your limbic system of fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist them, start to take place. Also, you shouldnt take any Guru's word just because he says hes enlightened. many gurus awoke to nonduality and stabilized for many years but they dont admit that they arent fully enlightened either, i mean, you can clearly see that sadghuru still plays egoic games such as arrogance and also you can see anxiety in him in some interviews, this does not indicate a fully enlightened man, although he is in a very deep nondual state i have to say, its just that he hasnt dealt with alot of his issues and him being a guru and being attached to that identity kind of stops him from seeing his issues. I have been in nonduality for 4 years, enlightenment is not instatenous, awakening is however. the veils that cover reality slowly uncover from your subconcious once awakened, only when they are fully gone can you consider yourself fully enlightened.

@Consilience I dont think you read my post if you think im being dogmatic. i already stated they have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path energetic amplifers are not conductive for enlightenment because they amplify the mere thing that everyone on the spiritual path is clearing, which is emotional bubbles which are all based off subconcious fear mechanisms. also, intense and profound experiences have nothing to do with real enlightenment, they can have their purposes in peoples paths though. this is why i say psychs experiences can have benefits such as awakening to nonduality and gives new perspectives (although with alot of amplified emotion which can delude you, and were human, so we have blindspots), doing spiritual work sober is much more conductive than psychedelic experiences, you deal with way less egoic blindspots this way, because psychs amplify emotion and their thought patterns so much so that its very easy to be suggestible to their realities. and the mysticalness and profoundness feelings of all psych experiences come from emotion.

@ivory awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. your energetic system which has a memory of fear mechanisms and attachments has to catch up to the awakening. only then can that be full enlightement. because how can you be truly nondual when fear mechanisms are still in your subconcious mind? a cleansing process of your limbic system has to take place for full enlightenment.

@Shakazulu i feel you. but a word of advice is to read up on the noble 8 fold path by the buddha. it used to seem like total bullshit and just running around to me when i first awoke, but i realized that its a pretty good system for having balance during this process of uncontraction. cuz this process can be pretty disorienting alot of the time due to the nature that we are so used to egoic consciousness and the mere fact that uncontraction means that we are gonna be feeling pain, alot. because attachment is pain, and when u release it its like you're releasing a thorn from your body, it will hurt, but progressively you will be so beat down that all of that stuff is gonna be gone, its like when a person goes through war, he has more resilience towards the pain and suffering of war, with enlightenment the process will eliminate every fear though, and even normal people are going through this process aswell but without their conscious awareness (and usually slower than people awakened to nonduality), life beats down our attachments again and again until we surrender the fight, and running away from fear.

@TheAvatarState I highly doubt it tbh. just the mere fact that we are humans and we have egoic blindspots is enough reason to be very careful with believing that psychs are perfect, because even though people dont really think that, i think many subconciously do. Like i said they have many benefits and they benefited me aswell, but at a certain point energetic amplifiers are not congruent to enlightenment, it just doesnt make any sense to me at my point in the path. anything that makes your emotional bubbles bigger is not enlightenment, enlightenment is the clearing of emotional bubbles, not just awakening to nonduality, awakening to nonduality is the start. but sadly, since many have these fancy nondual experiences on psychs, they think its enlightenment. if you think it takes you straight to enlightenment then are u saying you are stabilized in enlightenment or just with the psych experience? cuz if its just an experience of enlightenment then that doesnt do anything benefecial for me, i already awakened to nonduality, but my system is undergoing systemic changes which is clearing energetic contractions, and giving my system a psychedelic which amplifies bubble contractions is just a bad idea at my point, so this is why im saying psychedelics at a certain point would blunt your progress. has alotta benefits for people starting out for sure but people whove been stabilized in nonduality long enough i think can relate to what i am saying.

Based off of my experiences and a couple of my friends, i really do think that psychs as a conductive tool for spiritual work is mostly hype, and that actual full enlightenment can never come from a psychedelic, i think psychedelics can give you glimpse experiences though and thus awaken you to nonduality. Due to the fact that psychedelics are energetic amplifiers, its in their name aswell, psychedelic means "soul revealing" and as we know, a substance that amplifies your energetic system can have many benefits, such as dealing with trauma, having a new perspective, and even awakening to nonduality, but theres a difference between an awakening and actual enlightenment, awakening to nonduality is the mere start, a process of dissolving fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from them and its thought patterns, take place. this is why there is a big difference between a zen master and a dude who just awoke to nonduality. the main incongruency that i noticed between psychedelics and enlightenment is firstly, psychs amplify your emotional system thus the chance of you being stuck in your own ego created worlds is higher than if u were sober, especially if you have self esteem issues then take a psych, and all of a sudden you're having a messiah mania or perverting the truth of godhood to make you feel powerful. this only one example, but we all know psychs are big emotional amplifiers, and enlightenment is the process of dissolving (not numbing) your emotions and their underlying fear mechanisms, so i cannot really see psychs being a long term good tool for enlightenment, i can only see it as an awakening or perspective tool, but use it too often and it can make you live in your own bubble of delusions even moreso than normal people. fancy and extreme experiences isnt enlightenment if you ask me. also curious what @Leo Gura thinks, all feedback is appreciated though.

I think my problem and most likely something that others have encountered as well is that if you don't have a large variety of sources on this topic then it just becomes that much easier to fall into the trap of mistaking the map for the territory. At the time that I was building up my belief system about nonduality, subconsciously that is like I wasn't purposely trying to create beliefs about mysticism, but at that time I had maybe 3 other sources other than leo (Rupert Spira, Peter Ralston, and Alan Watts) and I've realized that this is a very small sample group and to avoid the trap of belief systems it helps to have at least 15 sources where you dive deep into all the different traditions and what all the enlightened masters of history have to say. Maybe diving into Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and other thoughts about mysticism from different religions rather than focusing on one religion or one person online like leo. It's all in the balance my friend. Agree, disagree, thoughts?

I agree. His content can help you get to a certain point, but there comes a time when you may realize that it is no longer adding the value that it once did and turns into your own personal belief system. And that's the crazy thing, the ego is so tricky because even though I've heard leo say about 100 times that the map is not the territory and that you shouldn't be creating beliefs about nonduality, for some reason this didn't resonate deep down in my mind and in retrospect I realized how much of a belief system I had and still have built up around nonduality. I think that the overall message is that consciousness work is very deeeeeeep, and if you want to go deep and have mystical experiences than there are so many ego traps, paradoxes and tricky mind manipulations that you have to become conscious of with brutal self honesty. Your thoughts?

@TeamBills I would almost characterize it as anti religious. A secular psychologist, Helen Schucman, starts spontaneously channeling Jesus Christ in the late 1960's utilizing modern terms such as ego, projection, dissociation,,,, With great reservations and the insistent encouragement from colleague Bill Thetford, they start organizing these notes and after 4 or 5 years, begin 'letting the cat out of the bag.' In this work, references are made to things in the Bible that are clarified or corrected. The idea of a judgmental God who sacrificed and scapegoated "his son" is stated as a perversion of truth. Also the idea of original sin and guilt is fallacy. The problem is separate sense of self (ego) with its repressed guilt and the resultant projections of this out onto others in the world. creede nailed it with his assessment of forgiveness. Although in ultimate reality, nondual reality, no such thing exists. But in duality, this act of an inner gesture is effective in opening one up to nonduality or the experience of Being as opposed to reality based on egoic internalized images.

Brian Josephson is a Nobel prize winning physicist (the Josephson effect is cool stuff: current flowing across a gap in superconductors, without any votage applied.) Turnes out, in the 70's he got into (the cult of?) transcendental meditation and from the viewpoint of mainstream science "went crazy". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Josephson Currently, he's running something called Mind-matter unification project http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/ I haven't explored the content of the site yet (I will). It seems there has been other serious research by quantum physicists into the nature of paranormal phenomena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Fysiks_Group It doesn't seem though that any "paranormal" phenomena were confirmed, except for the (quite esotheric, but known ;)) quantum entanglement effects in the microscopic world, which lead to the current studies of quantum computing stuff. I would love to learn about the successes and failures of serious physicists investigating non-duality and/or paranormal phenomena. It seems to have been a thing for at least half a century now, with a peak in the 70's leading... nowhere? somewhere? Are there any comprehensive reviews of the field, or reviews of its history from people who understand both science and nonduality?

Interesting topic. Yes, his content can be harmful especially to unstable individuals. For example, a suicidal person might do something really bad if he hears Leo say that “death is amazing” (or something of that sort). I understand where Leo is coming from, but people can misinterpret things very easily. Some things he say I think it’s just nonsense, but if I didn’t filter what he says, I could accept those things blindly. And I agree with you that people are building a whole belief system around nonduality. It’s as if nondualism is becoming a religion...

Welcome to the forum! I use it for goals of all kinds, book notes, inspiring quotes, schedules (kind of like a checklist for my eating habits, meditation, yoga, journaling, etc.), collecting and organizing important webpages and online articles, inspiring people, burning questions and my thoughts and info about them, life purpose course, women (organizing my notes on relationships, dating advice, etc.), and just quick notes on anything at all throughout the day (many of these can be inspiration for new sections). I also have sections on ego (probably my biggest and most important section) and nonduality. Those are more advanced though, the rest are highly practical and you could start tomorrow.

I purposely stopped watching Leo's videos for a few months because I realized that Leo's content was having a bad influence on me. Not in the sense that what he's talking about is dangerous, but you have to admit Leo is a very persuasive guy, and his content was making me fall custom to developing new belief systems around Nonduality and my worldview was conceptually switching to nonduality even though that's not possible, but my worldview was shifting to a false, conceptual view of nonduality. People are probably going to reply with how developing ideologies and new belief systems is the wrong way to go about it, and I know. But do you guys think that many people that comment on Leo's videos and most talk in this forum are extremely influenced by leo's views and don't yet have a solid spiritual understanding so they bicker back in forth over their enlightenment ideologies, or what they think about spiral dynamics, etc. etc. etc. I doubt than nearly any spiral dynamics posts were being written before leo made those videos on them. Not trying to like confront people, just curious to think about when viewing the path and how much work we have to put in on our own instead of creating beliefs and what can happen when we don't have spiritual experience but follow our ego's agenda down the spiritual path. (I personally haven't had any major spiritual experiences, just a few short glimpses.)

I smoked 5meo dmt 8 weeks ago and this time it was NNDMT. In the pasted I have smoked NNDMT and it always brings me into a visual wonderland giving me the experience of another world. However this time it was NOT the same, it was exactly what I had experienced on 5meo BUT stronger. Others who I was with all had the typical nndmt experience except for me. What happened next still makes no sense.. I was expecting nn-dmt world but what I got was absolute infinity. I had a pure 5meo-dmt experience Become complete conscious that nothing is real at all Completed mind fucked Life is a dream Realized that everything that I ever thought is real - including myself, my friends, family.. Everything was never real Thought I was going crazy and then I had the thought of killing myself, next thing I realized was that would do nothing I will be back again again again again.. It is all infinite Terrifying, not all spiritual experiences are enjoyable. ALL ONE, nonduality is not always blissful. The ramifications are massive, literally, that means you do not exist at all It felt like every experience I have EVER had and EVERY person I have ever met has been a test for me to experience waking up. I relived my whole life in a split second and then realized it never happened As I began to have thoughts of ego dissolutions and death I then realized that too is all an illusion As the experience was ending I was completed mind fucked and then It hit my minds are an illusion too. That pushed me right back into the experience After that experience, I then smoked again a few hours later. This time I felt like I tapped into some form of universal intelligence (consciousness?). I became fully aware of how the universe is intelligent and conscious. It can not be reduced down into simple rules and formulas. What's been seen can not be unseen now. I can't shake this experience. I have a hard to explaining this experience to anyone, not only because words don't do it justice but also because I start to cry. I have had this peak experience and now what guys? @Leo Gura Have a lot of work to integrate all of this.. Not even sure where to begin, but it has to be done

@ajasatya Thank you so much for the reply and the video. I completely agree with the video and what you are saying. I plan to totally revamp the way i live once i get the ibogaine and I hope to get to the root causes through therapy and psychs. I have a very dysfunctional romantic relationship right now and I don't feel right with my friends either. Im basically not very comfortable or happy with most aspects of my life but I do love who I am and i recognize my potential which i think is important for motivating me to change. I relate to my family much better than i used to but there is still some dysfunction with my mom. Every time she makes this noise with her throat or nose i get extremely angry and have to leave the situation. Im just in a hole of dysfunction right now and that's what caused the relapse, I couldn't take the emotional pain anymore but just like the video said, it began with pain, and its ending in pain. I also have an addiction to masturbation, weed, and basically any drug i can regularly do without destroying my life. I have a lot of trust issues as well because high school was extremely negative for me and i felt that i was hurt by some people very close to me. I felt betrayed by my friends a few times and when my mom kicked me out i felt betrayed again. My girlfriend broke up with me in the middle of my parents divorce and hook up with a kid right after which made me feel betrayed again. So i jumped back into a relationship right away to escape the pain and that is the person im still with today. We have dated almost 5 years and we cannot have sex because it hurts her to do so (about a year of little to no intimacy). She gets vaginal pain when we attempt to have sex and her therapist thinks its because of unresolved past trauma. We have been talking through this recently which has helped a lot for both of us. I absolutely traumatized her with my addiction habits and lies so i understand completely, although it has caused me to develop an extreme masturbation addiction (up to 5 times a day) which i also feel a lot of shame for because i feel like im doing something wrong and that i shouldn't want to have sex with every girl i see. Im quite skiddish because of being teased and hit by friends and i also got robbed and beaten so i have an extreme fear of being alone with black men i don't know on like a street at night although i have no issue with any race and i love everyone i meet. I still maintain a very low position in my friend group hierarchy and feel like that has always been that way, being the brunt of jokes and whatnot. hahaha sorry trying to think of all my "wounds" right now. I also have a fear of too much attention because of how much negative attention i got in high school for being a very visibly troubled kid. What i am thankful for from all this is my compassion and empathy for others is absurd, like i really really feel for others and always want to help anyone i can. I always see the best in people and will be there for them no matter what, even random homeless people ahaha. so yeah i guess thats most of my wounds and dysfunctions. I see that my addiction stems from these deeper emotional problems and im hoping ibogaine and therapy can help me uncover the issues and change literally my entire life. Thankfully my friends are into nonduality and so that has always been a good thing in my life and has influenced me in more ways than i know. I really appreciate your comments so thank you, your story is inspiring.

Well, the fact that Tolle has pulled many people into interest in nonduality is definitely a plus for him. Glad you enjoyed the critique

@ajasatya Nope but just briefly researched it, it seems interesting. The Middle Path seems like a long term strategy, I want to focus in the short term for efficient results. I only have conceptual understanding; That is Truth of no self, oneness, nonduality and realization of "your" infinite nature

You're still not getting it: duality IS unity! The distinction between duality and nonduality is a duality you imagined! The nature of duality is nonduality. The nature of nonduality is duality. When you make a distinction between duality and nonduality, you live a dualistic life. When you make no distinction between duality and nonduality, you live a nondual life. And if you make a distinction between these two lives, you live the dualistic life.

Based in SD theory, Coral would include all previous stages. I watched part of the video and can see red and orange. Yet not much Green to Turquoise. Yet higher stages can have varous expressions. For example, Turquoise isn’t just feel good nonduality teachers. I may be missing something in the video.