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@Joseph Maynor The paradox is fully there. Then again, paradox does not really exist. Paradox only exists within the realm of mind, when mind tries to articulate infinity. If you just sit and look at reality as it is without thought, there is no paradox. So the paradox is that there is no paradox, until you start to think about it "=" has nothing to do with math. It's a way of saying two things are one. For example, I could say: you = me. That's not math. It's a nondual truth. I could say: I = God God = Love God = Intelligence God = Nothingness God = Infinity Ego = devil Fear = illusion Nonduality = Oneness Infinity = Zero Truth = Love Form = Formlessness God = Creation Etc. And these are all highly worthwhile realizations to have. You are not going to realize all these identities in one shot. This is why having multiple awakenings is so important. The above is actually a very elegant way of communicating the highest truths. In fact, I'll be doing a whole episode about these "equations". My formulations are just one way of expressing/communicating Truth. There are many other ways. Each way will be partial and emphasize different aspects of Truth/God. If you want the full Truth, then you must go beyond the words. The point here is: never take my words too literally. Always leave some leeway. Read between the lines. Grok the intention behind the communication.

It’s possible to tie logic into Truth. Nonduality leaves nothing out, including logic. It’s just that the logic will be a more total sense rather than just human common sense

What you must realize is this: Something = Nothing Infinity = Zero Form = Formlessness Illusion = Reality This is one of the deepest awakenings you can have. You will not understand this logically. Only at the moment of awakening. Asking if God cannot be without form assumes that form and formless are two, but they are in fact one. God is simultaneously without form (the Godhead) and all form which has ever occurred anywhere. It is both! It is ALL! The ultimate realization of nonduality is the unification of form and formlessness, so you see them as one. In this way, the everyday material world becomes nothing, like a divine hologram. Your body starts to feel light, like it is a ghost, like you are etherial. Etherial = ether = 5th element = nothingness = consciousness = love = God Ta-da!

@SQAAD Science is within nonduality. Science is nonduality (as is everything). How can something prove itself? There is nothing to prove. It's like asking "Can science prove science exists?". It doesn't make sense.

the headless way uses science to prove nonduality exists.

Not true I had this on LSD too. I felt totally alone and slightly depressed. But solipsism is equivalent to the ego trying to make sense of nonduality whilst still keeping itself intact (thereby maintaining duality). Solipsism is half-assing spirituality. Would you recommend it?

I see it as people's definition of the ego is incorrect. The ego, aka the default mode network, SHOULD BE AN INTEGRATED TOOL for people to use to survive in the world we live in, in the physical plane. In the conditioned unawakened person, the ego runs the show and all the ego cares about is the seperate self. People on the path seem to think that the ego after enlightenment will be the same ego as before enlightenment and therefore the ego is the enemy, and has to die. But, and I say this is MY OPINION because I cannot speak of enlightenment because I am not enlightened, I think enlightenment is simply the permanent merging of the ego and the real you, Nonduality = no duality duality = the dual aspect of living from an ego and the real you. I also find it funny when not-enlightened people tell me it is a FACT that I am wrong. You can actually see their ego get triggered by your statement. I have highlighted the important aspects of my reply in red to show the irony.

Ahahaha OH MY GOD I CAN'T BE ENLIGHTENED BECAUSE I HAVE TO GO TO THE TOILET. THERE IS A ME AND THERE IS TOILET SO NONDUALITY IS FALSE. There is no practical life anymore.

And I just saw this quote in your cite: "Although a noble disciple may have abandoned the five more immediate fetters...still his conceit 'I am,' desire 'I am,' underlying tendency 'I am,' with respected to the five aggregates affected by clinging remains as yet unabolished." Clearly if the first fetter were nonduality in my sense this could not be the case.

Well clearly we mean something very different by nonduality, then. The nonduality I am talking about is the recognition of the falsity of the idea that "I am the body and mind." If that is accomplished, then there is no more question about greed arising, etc. To whom is the greed arising? Who is concerned about sensual desire? Who is there to do anything about these things? The nonduality I am talking about eliminates the notion of oneself as the doer and enjoyer of things. After that recognition, greed is not greed, and sensual desire is not sensual desire. These are categories that are no longer taken to be true. Merely knowing this in some intellectual sense is clearly not enough, and perhaps that's what the first fetter refers to -- that intellectual "right view." But if it referred to the deeper realization I am talking about, all the rest of the fetters would be irrelevant and beside the point. So clearly that cannot be the case.

@Zigzag Idiot Thank you for this text, especially the last part resonates with me. It is very reminiscent of what Leo called a Teotlized heart in his Aztec nonduality video. When I tried to explain the significance of I Ching to my wife, I used its metaphoric nature as a basis of its teaching. Metaphors are ambiguous enough to not suggest any specific interpretation, while allowing a person to match them to their everyday experience. With any book that is approached conventionally, as a reality bubble associated with an object, the story ends once we return to our everyday commotion. I Ching however, is a book that allows one to read his own life through a lens of his own making. In a sense, relationship with the Sage is like fuel for the hermeneutic cycle of life. I was always astonished by the connection between identity and creativity. In the beginning of my path, I viewed it as opposition of forces, but I Ching taught me that it is false. I need to see how they form a synergy.

The main lesson is really honesty. A few weeks ago I was raving here about nonduality then shit got depressive then deeper and made me realise I know nothing... and how silly I feel for giving people advice when I know nothing ha ha So I am sort of limiting myself to this thread, which I will update when and if...

I have been awakened for some time but I am not enlightened or anywhere near it in my opinion, though this seems to depend on what enlightenment is; for some enlightenment is simple nondoership nonduality ie Gary Weber who claims to never have thoughts all the way through to people like Dan Ingram who claim Arahantship and therefore have freed themselves of all 10 buddhist fetters, something I highely doubt btw. I had a huge shift yesturday, but different to most shifts where some part of "me" is chipped away and promptly replaced or uncovers something below it to replace it, this time round it got chipped away and nothing replaced it. Hard to put into words. These last few weeks I have felt somewhat lost, reading into different systems and different paths and different definitions of the usual definitions we use here. Then yesturday this shift occured and I don't feel lost anymore, nor do I really have questions either. I don't really have words for how I actually feel. I got drunk earlier, like totally hammered, just because I was bored, and didn't enjoy it, the whole time I was drunk it was like the, and I put it in speech marks again because it doesn't feel like the definition' "Consciousness" was pulsing away. I am done with drinking now, I feel like I no longer need it. The funny thing is I watched a video about how alcohol and spirituality are a no no and instead of commenting and arguing I realised I might be wrong about it...whilst I was fully drunk. So even when fully drunk I was not behaving / processing like I used to when I was 100% "me". Maybe this is an accurate way to explain how I feel actually. I feel like "Consciousness" which has always been in the background is now further in the foreground. Does that make sense? It also feels like it tried to force it's way fully into the foreground the other day but I saw it as "ego death" and had a panic attack about it (hence my thread a few days ago) so it held back and came in a different, more subtle way. Yeah that explains it. It feels like there is less "me" and more "Consciousness" inside my body (but also in everything outside the body) whereas before it was pretty much 50/50. It will be interesting to see how it takes shape in the long term, if it becomes more or less than "me". The only other thing I have noticed is I have been watching older Victor Oddo videos and when i watched them before, I didn't really get them, now they feel like reinforced second nature. I guess because I have experienced what he said vs trying to learn/process it via the mind.

Well, they're all useful for seekers, but they're not absolute truth. No, nonduality is not a combination of the first four fetters. All 10 fetters are about purifying the mind to purge it of the ignorance that prevents the seeing of the nondual truth.

Is Buddhism wrong? Are the 10 fetters wrong? Buddhism and the 10 fetters seem to extend far beyond nonduality and explaining that enlightenment = formlessness (ie that that is beyond the mind) nonduality is only a combination of the first 4 fetters.

Do@Seththomas What a great question. First off, you have to realize that there are MANY levels to understanding what is Consciousness. You are new to Leo's content and nonduality, so I'll try to explain it simply from this perspective. Consciousness is much more than just a human's capacity to be self-aware from a certain relative perspective. In fact, that's not what it is at all. For now, think of consciousness as a range (from low to high) that describes one's capacity to be aware of actuality. What most people see and how they operate is RADICALLY different from what is actually here. Most people run on a framework (ideology) that distorts and limits what they perceive, and the crazy part is that they aren't aware they're doing it. In this way, low consciousness is characterized by a lack of critical thinking, denial of direct experience, and reliance on ideology, while high consciousness is characterized by open-mindedness, self-experimentation, and integral thinking. Seeking to understand and surrender these attachments will raise your level of consciousness. You are correct that raising your consciousness is the goal of all spiritual work. What you're not seeing, however, is how powerful a nuanced understanding of consciousness can be. "Awareness" can be used interchangeably with "consciousness," and it often paints a clearer picture in our minds. It is no fluke that raising consciousness happens to be the "catch-all" blanket term for spiritual development. This doesn't render the term meaningless, it actually adds clarity to every other teaching or practice along the path. When you ask, "what is the purpose of this meditation?" you can immediately say, "Oh, I'm just raising my baseline level of consciousness." When you ask why you're journaling or doing self-inquiry, you can immediately say, "Oh, I'm mapping out meaning, taking on new perspectives, and exploring metaphysics. This raises my awareness of actuality." Consciousness is not only the how , but also the why.

That sounds like a high Yellow level realm. I'm also in the sciences and tend to think abstractly, big picture, integration, inter-connectedness etc. I can also see how there are so many fragments in need of synthesis. For example, neuroscience, psychology, therapeutic modalities, yoga, meditation, reiki, medication, mind-altering drugs etc. Also, how intellectual theory, personal experience and social dynamics are all inter-related. There is so much to learn from each area, yet it is like people are in different camps and can't see how all the camps are inter-related. I think there is a need for Yellow level open minds that can see this and start connecting dots. Understanding the science part can take many years of study and training. It also requires resources like access to education and money. I think people with solid science backgrounds that expand beyond science can make a great contribution. There just aren't many people like Deepak Chopra that have both scientific and spiritual integration. Even the Science and Nonduality conferences have few participants with extensive scientific background and understanding. Nearly all seem very heavy on nonduality with surface-level scientific understanding.

Some more to add. I really hope this helps someone, even a guest, because everyone's path is different yet has many crossovers. - It's like, lately, I spend time researching "conspiracy theories" (some are real or close to the truth) so my, whatever you call underneath the EGO mind, can sort/filter/process old stuff without me getting in the way. Then it all queues up, and I feel the need to meditate, or I get heart palpitations and other phenomena that tells me it is time to meditate. This has happened quite a few times over the last 8 months or so that I have been on the path alone with no support network. Anyway when this does happen, crazy stuff happens during the meditation in terms of either visuals or feelings then I get samadhi, you know where one second you are there, the next second you blink and 3 hours have passed by. Then after that I normally get some wierd experiences consciously. Last night I kept seeing flashes of white / silver, very quick flashes, randomly, with eyes either open or closed, and in the shower. I also woke up in bed a few times because it was like I was a different person re-living life from a different perspective, this is kind of difficult to say though because it was like I saw someone elses entire life flash by within 1 second of my conscious life. Then I woke up today in no-thought state as usual then had this ephiphany that all the choices I made in life lead up to this moment in life, the dukkha (suffering) I experience due to having no friends, and a sad miserable life. I knew this already from the POV of the mind ie logically but this was on a much deeper level than that. And it makes me question myself because...all the nondual teachers, they teach that you don't make decisions. That there is no personal choice. There is nondoership and you are just along for the ride. This ephiphany is completely contrast to that. Like, I am typing this out of choice, or am I typing this because "Consciousness" (and I really do put this in quotes now because it seems to me that "Consciousness" does not exist as we call it "Consciousness") wants me to - ergo nondoership? I am fully aware of the dualities between duality (reality) and nonduality (underneath reality) yet I am not getting the nondoership either logically (mind) or experiantally. Consciously I feel like having no friends, the dukkha caused is outweighed by the peace caused. No arguements, no drama, no trying to navigate the complex interelationship dynamics of multiple people. I have tried both and far prefer this way, yet the epiphany said this has caused suffering. But Buddhist Noble truth #1 states life IS dukkha - life IS suffering - so how have I caused my own suffering because anything I did do in life would be suffering? Do I even need to understand this? Maybe the ephiphany just was...and I shouldn't try to get it. Maybe the sky is just blue and we shouldn't have an explanation why the sky is blue? Sorry for the essay. I feel compelled to write it.

This video answers precisely that question https://www.actualized.org/insights/skepticism-and-nonduality

And just a symbol.

I heard nonduality includes duality.

Any distinction is a form of dualism. Regarding the I am God thing. . . People get confused and twisted because they conflate the personal relative “I” with the absolute level of God. And most people have a ton of preconceived ideas of God which is a hindrance. I think the phrase “I am everything” can be more helpful. Said another way, they are conflating duality and nonduality due to lack of experience with nonduality.

@Peo To me, explaining nonduality using language is quite limited because the human language itself is dual. When you try to explain it, unless you are a gifted teacher, you are at the risk of sounding insane and people will definitely not relate to you, like Jim Carrey as others suggested here. Try to communicate it by experiencing it. You don't have to speak about it unless you are asked directly. Don't just waste your energy on finding the right words, even to yourself, spend it on embodying it and people will see there is something different in you, but more likely this will be about peace and love instead of "my kid's just gone mad, we need to see a shrink." I almost never talk about my spiritual journey, nonduality and stuff like that with my husband for example. On the outer shelf, he identifies with being very logical, very scientific, and a bit religious too. He mostly resists non-religious spiritual teachings. Because I know he resists it, I don't feed his resistance by using my words. However, I can see just living with him and being myself is changing him immensely. And the consciousness will continue to raise whether or not you talk about it. So just focus on your consciousness, and it will benefit the consciousness of all beings on the planet.

@Peo Nonduality is not the reason you want to go on the retreat. What is the reason(s)?

Yes, I understand. This view/experience is tapping into nonduality. Yet its not the full monty. This view/experience is melting into the natural world and becoming the ISness of the natural world. Yet it is also making distinctions and includes separateness. To truly go beyond all paradigms and falsehoods, one word is too many. What is being viewed/experienced above is a profound and beautiful aspect of nonduality. Ime, it is much easier to enter nondual states in nature. Nature is a very powerful teacher of nonduality and ISness.