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@Joseph Maynor sometimes in life there are breadcrumbs of truth, even though it doesnt show itself fully (because im not in complete nonduality and havent met one yet) but in my experience and others that ive discussed with in the zen domain, there is indeed a complete enlightenment and process of ego dissolution thats occuring to many people who stabilized in nonduality for a while. and its not like its a new discussion, buddhist zen and other traditions have been discussing this for thousands of years. shit, even normal people go through this process, but probably unconscious, each time life triggers their attachments they have an oppurtunity of egoic dissolution. i think you shouldnt be quick to call bs, no need to believe either just be open to the possibility.

@Joseph Maynor sure okay i dont have proof of a complete enlightened person, but through my own experience and many others thats been stabilized in nonduality this seems to be the course of action thats taking place, "moving" towards ego dissolution.

@Joseph Maynor an awakened person has an ego, but a person who is in a complete state of nonduality (cleared all subconscious fear mechanisms through the process tha takes place after awakening, fear is the building blocks of your ego) has no ego. not many are in a complete state of nonduality, the buddha was though.

@Aquarius forget about the condescending part, i just woke up when i said that lol, but what i didnt appreciate is that you made a long post to reply but didnt really read what i said in the original post in my opinion. you have good points but but what i found for myself is that psychedelics are a limited spiritual tool basically, helps for awakening to nonduality and perspective shifts, other than that concerning the spiritual path, its like playing with fire during a delicate time period for your limbic system. at a certain point you wouldnt need nondual experiences from psychs anymore, cuz it will be seen as pointless, since u will stablize more into nonduality yourself.

@Leo Gura I understand that, everything in thought is ultimately driven by your energetic systems beliefs that stem from delusional fears. also saying everything is a concept is a concept, so whats your point? my whole point is to just use awareness to acknoledge that a process is occuring in ones system after awakening. if i see the law of gravity and describe it, i know its a concept and ultimately everything in reality is a concept, but its still there in my experience and not acknoledging it is not being synonmous with truth, which is, not synonomous with a nondual state of mind. same with the process of unentanglement, you dont have to be attached to whats occuring, but acknoledge it, since not acknoledging it is not truthful. well at least for people who have been in nonduality for a while, usually people in early states havent seen this process occur yet, atleast consciously.

as @whatever said, many people here awoke to nonduality but havent yet discovered that a process is occuring in their system. disacknowledging said proccess is not being congruent to your experience, which comes from aversion, which ultimately comes from fear, which is ultimately delusional.

@Serotoninluv @Jack River lol again, to state something you observed in your experience is not a belief system, its just about not being attached to it. avoiding it is not truly nondual. nonduality is synonmus with truth since you would have no aversion to truth. and the process of unentanglement in your limbic system is something that is occuring after awakening, if not seen it will be seen as time progresses. its like saying drivers licence test doesnt exist because ultimately nothing exists...

@corndjorn Not my point. You keep saying “X is Y”. Then you say “I understand X is not Y”. Then you go on telling stories with an underlying belief X is Y. Embodiment goes much deeper. And I am not pointing to your concept of nonduality. That is an assumption you seem to be making and I think you are dismissing nuggets of insight because of that assumption.

@Serotoninluv dude you know i agree with you right? everyone here knows nondual pointers you dont have to reitrate them all the time lol. listen man you can hide in nondual pointers all you want but as humans we experience fear, and fear is not synonmus with nonduality. the awakening to awareness initiates a process in experience which unclings all the attachments that is in your memory, it is definitely there. merely awakening to awareness is not the end point.

there is a purging process takes place, if its not taking place for you and you have awakened to nonduality, then you are running away from something either concsciously or subconciously or using concepts and spiritual experiences to escape

alot of people here are stuck in nondual concepts to be honest. this process of complete enlightenment after awakening isnt a belief system, its an observable thing that happens to any person whos been stabilized in nonduality for a while. read up more on zen masters such as shun ryu on what they have to say about this process. saying its all a belief system is like saying your room is a belief system... nonduality is synonomus with whats present. you dont have to be attached to acknowledge whats happening in your experience.

“Escape From Nonduality”

@pluto man ive been stabilized in nonduality for 4 years, life still happens and part of life is to describe the things you observe and sometimes that can be misinterpreted as belief systems by others. Awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process of your limbic system catching up with the awakening (ridding itself of fear based delusions) its another thing. its not a belief system, its something that i observed occuring after my awakening and has been going on for 4 years now.

@Serotoninluv a person in nonduality has no reason to avoid the fact that his limbic system is going through a process, the avoiding of it is not synonomus with true nonduality.

@Serotoninluv Thank nonduality for popcorn though.

@Serotoninluv language is limited and you have to communicate it wrong sometimes anyway. and enlightenment is a thing, i think youre the one thats attached to concepts, more specifically nondual concepts. awakening to nonduality is one thing, and complete enlightenment is another thing. its an observable process in your limbic system that deepens the nondual state youre in, until there is no process or no anything at all, only until your subconcious mind is cleansed, can that be truthful to say.

@Leo Gura nonduality can often be an ideology or even energetic experience that many people think its nonduality too, paradoxically. just saying. the subconcious mind is a natural part of existence, a nondual person has no reason to cling to nondual concepts such as the nonexistence of things, nonduality is beyond existence and nonexistence.

@Leo Gura full enlightenment isnt really a fantasy since if there are degrees of depth of nonduality then there is a complete enlightenment, when all subconcious fears are released,that is considereed complete enlightenment. and yes i do know its a tall order, ive been stablized in nonduality for 4 years and have been doing mostly zen practices to embody the truth more deeply (releasing the subconcious fears). and i do agree with you that psychedelics can aid in many ways, as ive said energetic amplifiers have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path i feel like dealing with psychs is a bit like playing with fire, it can amplify blindspots and thus the process of dissolution becomes more rockier, depending on how well your foundation is of course.

@Serotoninluv you have a hand, if you self describe yourself as having a hand is that wrong? im awake to nonduality but not fully enlightened, doesnt go against nondual truth at all actually, its kinda paradoxical like that.

@Leo Gura ive used psychedelics and benefited greatly from them, ive awoken to nonduality because of these substances and so i show my gratitude for that. However, many people including some gurus think that awakening and full enlightenment are synonomus with each other, when that couldnt be farther from the truth. Your limbic system has to catch up to the awakening by the slow process of dissolving subconcious fear mechanisms and attahcments running away from said fear mechanisms. Why i say at a certain point psychedelics are risky bussiness for a persons spiritual path is because the mere fact that the person is going through the process of dissolving attachments, goes against what many people do which is the subconcious chase of nondual experiences through psychedelics. now there isnt anything wrong with that for seeking purposes, but once awakened and you stabilize for a while psychedelics become more pointless ime and other peoples experience that ive talked to. energetic amplifiers have so much benefit im not denying that, but we are humans and we have egoic blindspots, and giving those blindspots an energetic amplifier will only make your process to enlightenment more rocky or more likely too. you can still use it as a tool sure, but based on what ive said i think its a flawed tool at a certain point, and there are more conductive ways of going through your spiritual process.

@Enlightenment yes, enlightenment is not an easy ordeal, its a process that takes time and patience. awakening to nonduality is the easy part, removing the delusional thorns from your subconcious is the hard part. look up shunryu zen master, he has work that talks about this.

@Nahm no problem. a person awake to nonduality shouldnt feel wrong about talking about progress, its a natural part of this life were living, and awakening to the beyond is something benefecial indeed and is tied to enlightenment but isnt full enlightenment for the mere fact that all youre life youve been putting memory after memory of fear driven delusion in your subconcious mind, and fear and nonduality are not congruent as a result, fear and the egoic paradigm it drives, dissolves in the face of true nonduality.

Thanks. I have to say though, that is a weird definition. If you inquire into the meaning behind it, you’ll arrive back at nonduality.

all that you described is awakening, NOT enlightenment. Enlightenment is a very real thing. enlightenment is when your limbic sytem catches up with the awakening and clears all subconcious fears and the attachments that try running away from. many people that just awoke to nonduality think that thats it, but they couldnt be farther from the truth, their reality will start to crumble because all their egoic paradigms will slowly be released, which can hurt. since fear is not synonomous with enlightenment, dont convince yourself your enlightened when youre not, youre just awakened to nonduality, there millions that are, but very few that are fully enlightened.

@Matt8800 as ive said in the post, psychedelics are good tools for awakenings but NOT full enlightenment. ive had my first nondual awakening through psychs and i thank their purpose in my path, but at a certain point once youve been stabilized in nonduality sober for many years, youll see that the subconcious need for psychedelic or mystical experiences is just another attachment to be dropped, extreme and fancy experiences will never get you to enlightenment, only give u a fancy awakening. but full enlightenment is a slow delicate process of your limbic system catching up with the awakening.