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The true witness is nothingness, it is not a creation. Whatever is experienced is not it.

... is there still a perception of the world, since the perceiver itself is a creation of nothingness? I know this can't be explained, but im just looking for some insights to guide my inquiry. Thank you!

yeah.... god/love/truth These are all concepts or realizations happening within love/god/truth. for them not to be would be nothing to be. nothing exists within the infinite, however everything does too. "This" simply exists because of purity aka God/Love/Truth. Whiteness and darkness. inside whiteness all of which is, is there. love, truth, peace. inside darkness there is nothingness so deep there cannot be an observer, or understander. Deep enough inside the emptiness you will find love. Deep enough within love you will find emptiness. Anything that is, is Love, Truth, God.

I still haven't got to the bottom of why some days I'm focussed and productive and others I just cannot concentrate on anything. It's like my mind flat out refuses to think in that strict logical step by step way needed for me to do my programming work. Instead I find my mind just drifting in a kind of right brain dreamy reverie - like reality could just consume me and I wouldn't notice or care - and it might actually be a blessed relief just to diffuse into nothingness. So to more magick. If magick works, then for me it is less left brain analytical and more right brain creative/artistic/intuitive. However, to get a handle on it I still need to do the analytical groundwork. It's like the division between science and engineering. I could just engineer my magick and be done with it. So very much a pragmatic trial and error approach - if it works, keep doing it. But trial and error is slow and inneficient - timewise. This is where science comes in, it makes models which refine your approach and point you in the right direction; it's analytical and initially also time consuming, but it pays off by synergising with engineering. One discipline feeds off the other in a virtuous circle. I need both. So to start off with, more science than engineering. Boundaries Magick is really about directed transformation. But not just any old transformation but specifically targeted transformation, mostly done in a non-conventional way. By non-conventional I mean not using the body, but perhaps other methods such as using the mind, or psychadelics, or something else. What could be that something else? There is a strong three way connection between awareness, existence and boundaries. They are really three words for the same thing. Any one of these three things implies the others. Changing boundaries means shifting awareness means morphing existence. Hopefully, you can see where I'm going. By somehow affecting any one of these facets purposefully, then magick can happen. The other thing to take note of is change - ironically the only constant in existence. What change refers to is the constantly changing boundaries of awareness. Perhaps what I didn't really outlign about my metaphysics in my last post, was that I don't consider there to be an observer. This isn't needed as awareness is aware of itself. What is being observed is awareness itself. Awareness "takes on the shape" of reality in all its glory and gore. It's like a painting that sees itself; it's made up of brushtrokes and colours (the boundaries). How then does the "directed" part of "directed transformation" itself arise? Of course like everything else: through awareness. See the circular way in which things happen? "I" am interested in magick and becoming a magician, but, that interest arose from awareness itself. It isn't me that wants to perform magick, but awareness itself. Does awareness know in advance what the outcome of that magical interest will be? Awareness transforms itself, as it always has done: change is constant. So the starting point in learning magick is to let awareness do the heavy lifting. Awareness will direct itself in any case. The seed has been sown. How do I perform magick using boundaries? One way would be by conceptual shifting. A large part of how we see the world is precisely through our map of it. We see cars and people and clouds and poverty and the thousand other things that make up society. To transform our perception of the world is magick in itself. There are any number of ways to change our conceptual understanding. One is simply to gather more information about a concept. If we learn how a car engine works, we will have magically shifted the way we see a car. This is happening constantly by itself, this is what maturity means. Systems thinking is another way to revise conceptual understanding. We learn to join together disparate concepts and see how they influence each other, and how changing something here can affect the whole system. Efficient magick is then knowing exactly where to peturb the thing we want to transform (viewed as a system). Systems will often reach equilibrium, either steady state or cyclical. Knowing where and when to pertub a system, can establish a new steady state or cycle. Does any of the above help? Only in a very meta way. Take away for today: change concepts and understand systems to perform magick.

I still act like a dick sometimes and also still have some spiritual egotism periodically. I feel like I'm a better person for having once been a Zen Devil, though.. In the Work it's said that becoming man #5 before you've achieved balance as man#4 then there is no way to become man #6. Well there is but it requires enduring a difficult path in which you encounter the neccasary heat to bring about another recrystalization. Normally I'll phrase it as human # 4, human # 5, human #6, etc. so I don't come across as sexist or patriarchical. Human # 4 has their 3 centers or brains balanced as well as being integrated. Human #5 job is to begin expressing the individuality- data which is from the Causal body. This is called the second initiation and for this to happen we need to consciously incarnate in our two natured system. The first initiation is the realization that you are not IT, the body. Forgiveness and apologies are acts in which the heart as a perceptual tool becomes stronger because some individuality data from the Causal body Is being expressed. Because of this expression becoming freed-up we can then feel our nothingness. So I see Human #5 as in addition to being integrated are also individuated which is synonymous with realizing one's presence and having our being and realizing the True Self . In today's world this is as high as Actualization goes. 100 years from now it will probably be higher. People will be actualizing as human # 7 maybe. Jesus was human # 7 or #8 I've heard. I don't know but that may put things more in scale for some. Human # 1 likes eating, sex, and physical movement, instinctual things. They're the ones who can't stand still or stop for very long. Human #2 stays in the lower emotional center all the time being emotional and Human number 3's are the full time egg head's who most often never have inner quiet. Humans #1,#2, and #3 are all at the same level of spiritual sleep. Humans #4 is we awaken and leap out of our graves as Ocke de Boer humorously puts it. I would metaphorically put it that it's also when we have to become our own Fonzi and leave behind our imitation Fonzi. It's said you don't really understand something unless you can create metaphors about your understanding. I'm working on it. My Fonzi allegory will most likely exasperate more than a few but I'm going to stand behind it. It makes sense to me as well that our understanding increases only when we work on our knowledge the same as we work on our being. Apologies and forgiveness I would put in the category of work on being. I didn't aim to write this much. The Science of Idiotism can help those who became human #5 before they balanced as human #4. That's my predicament as well in being stuck here on the ladder of reason. The question here is always- What kind of Idiot are you? Some stations of Idiocy are more difficult to endure than other stations but then it's different with everyone as well anyway. Some people won't require the Science Of Idiotism but for others, it will be an effective springboard.

If I'm going to be a magician then it will have to be on my own terms. It has to be my own brand of magick. That's not to say I won't be taking input from other sources, to the contrary. But I will synthesise my own conclusions. So to start in earnest. Hacking reality. The base of it all is my metaphysics. My model of how the world functions. Now it would be silly to say that altering the map will alter the territory - changing my metaphysics will not produce magick. However, I need a "way in", so using my existing map at least will orient me so I can find my way. What is my metaphysics? Stuff exists, that's an absolute certainty. Time strictly is an invention. No past, no future, no present. The "shape" of existence, it's patterns and textures are formed by one thing only: boundaries. Boundaries form hierarchies and interdependencies. "Form" comes from boundaries, as do concepts, and language and belief. But concepts, language and belief can in turn affect the boundaries and hence what is perceived (but not all that is perceived). Boundaries are completely fluid. Awareness is aware of itself. This is the defining feature of being aware. By this mechanism awareness brings forth existence from nothingness. Everything is constant change. And as a corollary everything is constant death and rebirth. Everything is correlated (affects, linked) to everything else to a greater or lesser degree. This is systems thinking at large, tug one thing here and something over there responds, maybe even non-intuitively. The most efficient way to affect reality, is through the body (but magick implies there are other ways). Dreams and thoughts are very much part of reality. We are living and participating in a dream. Reality is seamless. There are no gaps to reality. Everything bleeds into everything else, it is a whole or unity. There are no gaps to awareness. It is always "on". Reality has "rules", it's corrolary is that there is "structure" to everything. Reality and consciousness is very personal to "me", it's happening right here, right now. There is no way of knowing if consciousness is happening any place else. Awareness itself is essentially unrestricted, nothing is out of bounds. Ok, so that's the map. Some of the things on the map are related to each other, or seem to contradict, or have further questions attached: No time, but constant change (?) Reality is seamless; no gaps in awareness; everything is correlated. And yet there is division in the form of boundaries? We are in a dream, yet need the body to affect anything in it? The dream is constrained by rules. There is constant change, but there are rules (?), the change is not chaotic. Boundaries must also be part of reality (right?) and are part of awareness. What? Awareness has parts? Isn't this circular reasoning? Is awareness being aware of itself the cause of boundaries (a.k.a duality)? Does awareness have the capability to tie itself in knots? To somehow "boundary" itself? Are the boundaries the rules themselves? Awareness is unrestricted, and yet there are rules (restrictions)? How does magick relate to all the above? That's a start. More later.

No idea if it’s permanent, it’s not really a state though. There’s just what seems to be happening. I can get into some pretty awesome states if I choose to but I usually don’t these days. I did the other day though — inclined my mind to have an experience of nothingness, for instance, via the 7th jhana. Many different kinds. Started meditating 20 minutes at a time, then did The Mind Illuminated, then some of Kenneth Folk’s teachings, then read Rob Burbea’s Seeing That Frees (probably my favorite). I’m not enlightened. It’s all just experiences. There was an apparent collapse of the individual but I can’t say anything I did caused it to happen, and I can’t even tell you when it happened. Oh yeah and I forgot to mention self inquiry. That probably provoked the most change.

Who is asking why? "From the Upanishads on down, there have been sages who have discovered the meaning of ajata’s message, and have declared “no creation” or “no origination” or “no birth” etc. They are stating that the nature of ultimate reality is emptiness or nothingness or a void, and that from a “condition” of emptiness not anything can ever come out or originate or appear. In other words, any thing which appears to exist is not, and cannot be, a creation from nothingness. Put another way, any thing which seems to appear is not real, from the ultimate standpoint. This is not a denial that things do seem to appear. Both anything which seems to appear and the person to whom they seem to appear are unreal. The analogy which is classically given is that of a sleeping dream. In the dream, you–a figure which is not actually real–interact in a world which dos not actually exist. In this analogy, when you–whom ajata says cannot have had this existence from the start–wake up from the sleeping dream, you are nevertheless an unreal person seeming to live in a world, which does not exist in actuality. In other words, the waking “dream” is a continuation of the sleeping dream. Neither one can be anymore real than the other. Another way in which the literature puts this is to say that all forms are empty. Anything which is truly empty cannot be said to “exist”; and where existence is out of the question, “not exist” is not applicable. You, as a form, are empty. The world, as a form, is empty. In other words, both are nothing. Both have not ever been created, or originated. Though they seem to appear (within the big Dream), both are without any actual reality. The seeming person continues to live out her life (from supposed “birth” to “death”) in a seeming world, in a seeming universe. Yet, in what could be said to be the true or ultimate reality of emptiness, not anything ever has, or could, happen. From the ultimate standpoint, there is not anything that ever needs to be explained. Any questions which arise and any answers are within the Dream–and the Dream is not real. Those who understand this, the sages would say, have awakened from the big Dream. Whether one does or does not, in the end, makes absolutely no difference. But for those who do awaken, all their questions–within the Dream–are seen to be utterly empty". -- Ajata Project (Robert Wolfe) ajatasunyata.com

Let me disarm you I'm not trying to own you I just want to know what it feels like To have your body so close Let me absolve you Of the past that controls you I just want to know what you look like Without a weight on your soul I know somewhere we could get away If you want to find another place, like Disappear and never leave a trace I'll take you anywhere you want So let me disarm you There's an army I'm finding around your heart Let me disarm you 'Cause baby I just want to love who you really are Who you really are So let me disarm you So let me disarm you Spoken in silence Plays in like sirens I can bring you out of the darkness Into the fiery light I know somewhere we could get away If you want to find another place, like Disappear and never leave a trace I'll take you anywhere you want So let me disarm you There's an army I'm finding around your heart Let me disarm you 'Cause baby I just want to love who you really are Who you really are Something's wrong, but I don't know what Wondering how, with all the things I've got Life is good, but the pain don't stop 'Cause I'm holding on, so I give it up Cheer up, cheer up (cheer up), put a smile on your face Wake up, wake up (wake up), take me out of this place Rise up, rise up (rise up), we are the human race Cheer up, cheer up (cheer up), put a smile on your face "So if you really go the whole way and see how you feel at the prospect of vanishing forever." "Have all your efforts, and all your achievements, and all your attainments turning into dust and nothingness." "What is the feeling? What happens to you?" "It's a curious thing, that in the worlds poetry, this is a very common theme." "The earthly hope men set their hearts upon turns ashes - or it prospers, and anon, like snow upon the desert's dusty face lighting a little hour or two - is gone (is gone...)." Something's wrong, but I don't know what Wondering how, with all the things I've got Life is good, but the pain don't stop 'Cause I'm holding on, so I give it up Something's wrong (something's wrong), but I don't know what Wondering how (wondering how), with all the things I've got Life is good (life is good), but the pain don't stop 'Cause I'm holding on (holding on), so I give it up "So in this way, by seeing that nothingness is the fundamental reality, and you see it's your reality, then how can anything contaminate you (contaminate you...)?" "All the idea of you're being scared and put out and worried and so on, is just nothing, it's a dream (it's a dream)." "Because you're really nothing. (Because you're really nothing.) So cheer up! (So cheer up!)" Cheer up, cheer up (cheer up), put a smile on your face Wake up, wake up (wake up), take me out of this place Rise up, rise up (rise up), we are the human race Cheer up, cheer up (cheer up), put a smile on your face "All the sun and the stars and the mountains, and rivers, and the good men and bad men, and the animals, and the insects; the whole bit." "All are contained in void." "So out of this void comes everything and you are it." "What else could you be? (What else could you be?)" "But if somebody is going to argue that the basic reality is nothingness, where does all this come from? (Where does all this come from?)" "Obviously from nothingness, hehe (hehe)."

Imagine a videogame screen. The game is being viewed through the main character, seeing the videogame world through first person-person perspective. Everything in this game world, on this screen is not real (obviously, it's just a videogame), including the main character. It's all meaningless, just a game. Imagine that main character was programed to think he was real and separate from everything else on the screen. Now imagine there is no screen, but the images still exist as if there was a screen, just images appearing in nothingness. Now imagine the first-person perspective main character and everything in this game world he experiences, were all that there was. No one is viewing the images, as the images are all that there is. Now imagine that those images are God experiencing itself.

Many nondual teachers say this, but I do not understand it. I don't feel like I am putting resistance here, I used to believe in free-will but Leo convinced otherwise in one video, I cant argue with solid logic, so yeah I am pretty much open to have my conceptions challenged and destroyed. But from my perspective Perceiver never existed sounds... ummm... stupid. I totally accept that I am imagined, and that everything I perceive is imaginary, a fiction, this flows well with my current spiritual growth. But "I dont exist" just rings nothing inside me but cringe. Fiction is "something" afterall, its a difference, a manifestation, therefor I am "something", even if I am not material. Unless this is just a play in semantics... if the only real thing is that which is unchangeable => nothingness. Then yes, I agree with this, but then I would not agree to relate unchangeable with realness. Isn't the point of nonduality that both nothingness and everythingness =true?

You know what you are talking about, in order to have any kind of experience of separation a separate ego is created in the dream. Solipsism is really a simplification saying my ego is god, your nondual self is god, this little toy that will fade away into the nothingness is nothing but a toy. You are eternal, life is a story. However let's recontextualize. You are god and are bored. You have infinite time.In the mind anything is possible, anything. So you can imagine yourself to be a man a woman and anything at the same time. Solipsism says ohhh i'm god and i couldn't imagine splitting myself, or that god can't control several meat suits. REALLY TEST THIS THEORY. Go with Leo or someone and drop acid, let me see you talk about solipsism then xDDD

Haha, that’s funny. He misunderstood what I meant in that thread. But I tried to clear it up. What I meant to say, or should have said is that the points of view of everyone you know exist within infinite consciousness, so functionally speaking, it’s the same as just saying everyone you know has their own consciousness. @MvrsThere is a consciousness that is aware of typing this message right now. The kicker is that it is still YOUR consciousness. Your now and my now are the exact same now. The nothingness that is looking out from behind my eyes is the exact same nothingness that is looking out from behind yours. The content of the experience is different of course, but the raw consciousness or raw sense of being is absolutely 100% identitical. If you can come into contact with your true identity as consciousness itself and see past the illusion of your conceptual identity, this becomes completely apparent. As infinite consciousness, you are going to live all lives and experience every point of view including my point of view and the point of view of everyone you know. Though it’s more accurate to say that you already have, you will and already are experiencing it all in the Eternal Now.

I don't believe that there is something left that can distinguish heaven and hell "after" death. However, during death you can experience "eternity", the "eternal now". I also have experienced this with suffering. Eternal now + suffering shot me into the nothingness. Strangely "after eternity" ,eternity ironically stops and time just happens again. So probably during your dying process you can be in the eternal now + suffering, which I believe is technically Hell, until you give up and the ego dies before your Body. In the nothingness I don't remember being bothered by the "eternal suffering" that preceded. It's just a belief, but I think nothingness transcends heaven and hell. at least the nothingness transcended heaven- and hell-awakenings I had. Test it out in life, you might not have to literally die for that, let yourself be absorbed into heaven until there is no heaven, an let yourself be absorbed in hell until there is no hell. If that's also the case after death, nobody really knows, however it seems strange to me that you can transcend heaven and hell during life, why would we be stuck in those mildly-awakened states after death?

You are the awareness, nothingness, space, whatever you want to call it. Just be that, as you are, not as something else, like the formless wearing the form.

Deep sleep is no more "nothingness" than what you are experiencing right now. There is no difference between something and nothing. No difference between everyday life and deep sleep. The difference exists in the mind only.

Can I make my idea of akasha match mainstream science? Not exactly, but in the Wolfram Physics Project they use a model that is a simple network of interconnected nothingness one might say. That's exactly compatible with my idea of akasha. What is missing is that the Wolfram model is mechanical in the sense that it follows computational rules. My model of akasha is that it is "controlled" by infinite intelligence. But I can modify the Wolfram model and make it exactly the same as akasha! Instead of having the network expand according to a fixed rule I can have it expand according to infinite intelligence. My model is still purely atheistic because the intelligence is in the structure of the network itself, not some external being or other divine intervention. Does my model remove God from the picture? No, because I can define God as the intelligence of the network of reality. To religious and spiritual people that might seem like a cop out since my model is still atheistic, but I think it's a useful definition of God. And that's why I put the word "controlled" in quotation marks, because it's not an external God controlling things, instead God is the control itself.

And our true nature is nothingness but that is deep sleep forever after this life, thats how I interpret it

Are you talking about nothingness here? Are you saying we need sleep to reincarnate? I'm having trouble understanding the post

Consciousness is the screen on which direct experience lies. Nothingness is the screen in which the universe lies. Are they one and the same thing? Or is there a duality to it all? Only belief can know.

We’re obviously a black hole/resonant energy falling inward and out of itself in a super fractal that happens to exist because of the idea of nothingness and infinities grasp.

I was thinking just stay quiet and let everything move around me... the only problem is there’s no “me” and nothing to move, just nothingness ?

@Tim Ho Well, you know how we all have a perspective on life. I started my journey out of despair, because life was ugly, painful etc. Life was a journey of avoiding suffering until you die, an hopefully nothing to bad will happen to you (again). But that is just one perspective on life, I recently had an awakening into the nothingness, multiple ego deaths, and the realisation that everything was love and perfect as it is, reality could not have been better designed, every sensation every thought, every emotion was just perfect, love etc. There is no worry anymore, because you know everything is love. Thats the biggest change of perspective possible on life for me. We already are in heaven. We just don't notice it all the time. Or we simply don't want to see it. However I didn't have a God awakening yet, I can't compare God with heaven.

Bliss is the consciousness of your true nature as infinite nothingness. Bliss is the absence of ego.

@Leo Nordin @Breakingthewall I had 5 times awakening experience. I have had experience In my 3th and 4th awakening experience, I experienced complete nothingness just nothing and forgot everything for hours. And everytime when I experience nothing, before i reached nothingness i felt something infinitely heavy , which was infinite loneliness and after that I became nothing. However, when I started to remember again, life was nothingness. Because of that I didn’t move, go out, was just sitting my dark room just effortlessness. But even i have almost none thoughts, my insight was telling me that still something is missing. However in my last awakening, after reaching at nothingness i have realized the purpose of creation was the satisfaction. (Because i sit too long as nothing, therefore completely forget to life, when you are completely nothing you dont feel anything, you are just you are, pure consciousness). When i felt the first glimpses feeling of satisfaction, infinite love hit me. I was nothing, but source of creation was love. I was nothing, but every movement, breathe, feelings, senses, thought, experience, entire duality was love. Than i realized i am nothing, but body is love, air is love, food is love, people are love. I was in love with myself. Because everything was me. Than i felt completely full. That part of missing me was complete. I am nothing and experiencing the love as me. All the prejudgments towards people, questions, problems, expectations were gone because i was nothing and complete with love as nothing. Love completes the life. And still same. No one can tell you that you are awaken, but you will now it when you are in love with yourself, which yourself is everything. you will know it. Let nothingness speaks, feel, senses for you. Be nothing. Rest will come. You guys just need to let go of your expectations, let go of so called self, open your heart and surrender. It will find you sooner or later. It is now, it is you and within you. Peace!!!