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Well clearly we mean something very different by nonduality, then. The nonduality I am talking about is the recognition of the falsity of the idea that "I am the body and mind." If that is accomplished, then there is no more question about greed arising, etc. To whom is the greed arising? Who is concerned about sensual desire? Who is there to do anything about these things? The nonduality I am talking about eliminates the notion of oneself as the doer and enjoyer of things. After that recognition, greed is not greed, and sensual desire is not sensual desire. These are categories that are no longer taken to be true. Merely knowing this in some intellectual sense is clearly not enough, and perhaps that's what the first fetter refers to -- that intellectual "right view." But if it referred to the deeper realization I am talking about, all the rest of the fetters would be irrelevant and beside the point. So clearly that cannot be the case.

@Zigzag Idiot Thank you for this text, especially the last part resonates with me. It is very reminiscent of what Leo called a Teotlized heart in his Aztec nonduality video. When I tried to explain the significance of I Ching to my wife, I used its metaphoric nature as a basis of its teaching. Metaphors are ambiguous enough to not suggest any specific interpretation, while allowing a person to match them to their everyday experience. With any book that is approached conventionally, as a reality bubble associated with an object, the story ends once we return to our everyday commotion. I Ching however, is a book that allows one to read his own life through a lens of his own making. In a sense, relationship with the Sage is like fuel for the hermeneutic cycle of life. I was always astonished by the connection between identity and creativity. In the beginning of my path, I viewed it as opposition of forces, but I Ching taught me that it is false. I need to see how they form a synergy.

The main lesson is really honesty. A few weeks ago I was raving here about nonduality then shit got depressive then deeper and made me realise I know nothing... and how silly I feel for giving people advice when I know nothing ha ha So I am sort of limiting myself to this thread, which I will update when and if...

I have been awakened for some time but I am not enlightened or anywhere near it in my opinion, though this seems to depend on what enlightenment is; for some enlightenment is simple nondoership nonduality ie Gary Weber who claims to never have thoughts all the way through to people like Dan Ingram who claim Arahantship and therefore have freed themselves of all 10 buddhist fetters, something I highely doubt btw. I had a huge shift yesturday, but different to most shifts where some part of "me" is chipped away and promptly replaced or uncovers something below it to replace it, this time round it got chipped away and nothing replaced it. Hard to put into words. These last few weeks I have felt somewhat lost, reading into different systems and different paths and different definitions of the usual definitions we use here. Then yesturday this shift occured and I don't feel lost anymore, nor do I really have questions either. I don't really have words for how I actually feel. I got drunk earlier, like totally hammered, just because I was bored, and didn't enjoy it, the whole time I was drunk it was like the, and I put it in speech marks again because it doesn't feel like the definition' "Consciousness" was pulsing away. I am done with drinking now, I feel like I no longer need it. The funny thing is I watched a video about how alcohol and spirituality are a no no and instead of commenting and arguing I realised I might be wrong about it...whilst I was fully drunk. So even when fully drunk I was not behaving / processing like I used to when I was 100% "me". Maybe this is an accurate way to explain how I feel actually. I feel like "Consciousness" which has always been in the background is now further in the foreground. Does that make sense? It also feels like it tried to force it's way fully into the foreground the other day but I saw it as "ego death" and had a panic attack about it (hence my thread a few days ago) so it held back and came in a different, more subtle way. Yeah that explains it. It feels like there is less "me" and more "Consciousness" inside my body (but also in everything outside the body) whereas before it was pretty much 50/50. It will be interesting to see how it takes shape in the long term, if it becomes more or less than "me". The only other thing I have noticed is I have been watching older Victor Oddo videos and when i watched them before, I didn't really get them, now they feel like reinforced second nature. I guess because I have experienced what he said vs trying to learn/process it via the mind.

Well, they're all useful for seekers, but they're not absolute truth. No, nonduality is not a combination of the first four fetters. All 10 fetters are about purifying the mind to purge it of the ignorance that prevents the seeing of the nondual truth.

Is Buddhism wrong? Are the 10 fetters wrong? Buddhism and the 10 fetters seem to extend far beyond nonduality and explaining that enlightenment = formlessness (ie that that is beyond the mind) nonduality is only a combination of the first 4 fetters.

Do@Seththomas What a great question. First off, you have to realize that there are MANY levels to understanding what is Consciousness. You are new to Leo's content and nonduality, so I'll try to explain it simply from this perspective. Consciousness is much more than just a human's capacity to be self-aware from a certain relative perspective. In fact, that's not what it is at all. For now, think of consciousness as a range (from low to high) that describes one's capacity to be aware of actuality. What most people see and how they operate is RADICALLY different from what is actually here. Most people run on a framework (ideology) that distorts and limits what they perceive, and the crazy part is that they aren't aware they're doing it. In this way, low consciousness is characterized by a lack of critical thinking, denial of direct experience, and reliance on ideology, while high consciousness is characterized by open-mindedness, self-experimentation, and integral thinking. Seeking to understand and surrender these attachments will raise your level of consciousness. You are correct that raising your consciousness is the goal of all spiritual work. What you're not seeing, however, is how powerful a nuanced understanding of consciousness can be. "Awareness" can be used interchangeably with "consciousness," and it often paints a clearer picture in our minds. It is no fluke that raising consciousness happens to be the "catch-all" blanket term for spiritual development. This doesn't render the term meaningless, it actually adds clarity to every other teaching or practice along the path. When you ask, "what is the purpose of this meditation?" you can immediately say, "Oh, I'm just raising my baseline level of consciousness." When you ask why you're journaling or doing self-inquiry, you can immediately say, "Oh, I'm mapping out meaning, taking on new perspectives, and exploring metaphysics. This raises my awareness of actuality." Consciousness is not only the how , but also the why.

That sounds like a high Yellow level realm. I'm also in the sciences and tend to think abstractly, big picture, integration, inter-connectedness etc. I can also see how there are so many fragments in need of synthesis. For example, neuroscience, psychology, therapeutic modalities, yoga, meditation, reiki, medication, mind-altering drugs etc. Also, how intellectual theory, personal experience and social dynamics are all inter-related. There is so much to learn from each area, yet it is like people are in different camps and can't see how all the camps are inter-related. I think there is a need for Yellow level open minds that can see this and start connecting dots. Understanding the science part can take many years of study and training. It also requires resources like access to education and money. I think people with solid science backgrounds that expand beyond science can make a great contribution. There just aren't many people like Deepak Chopra that have both scientific and spiritual integration. Even the Science and Nonduality conferences have few participants with extensive scientific background and understanding. Nearly all seem very heavy on nonduality with surface-level scientific understanding.

Some more to add. I really hope this helps someone, even a guest, because everyone's path is different yet has many crossovers. - It's like, lately, I spend time researching "conspiracy theories" (some are real or close to the truth) so my, whatever you call underneath the EGO mind, can sort/filter/process old stuff without me getting in the way. Then it all queues up, and I feel the need to meditate, or I get heart palpitations and other phenomena that tells me it is time to meditate. This has happened quite a few times over the last 8 months or so that I have been on the path alone with no support network. Anyway when this does happen, crazy stuff happens during the meditation in terms of either visuals or feelings then I get samadhi, you know where one second you are there, the next second you blink and 3 hours have passed by. Then after that I normally get some wierd experiences consciously. Last night I kept seeing flashes of white / silver, very quick flashes, randomly, with eyes either open or closed, and in the shower. I also woke up in bed a few times because it was like I was a different person re-living life from a different perspective, this is kind of difficult to say though because it was like I saw someone elses entire life flash by within 1 second of my conscious life. Then I woke up today in no-thought state as usual then had this ephiphany that all the choices I made in life lead up to this moment in life, the dukkha (suffering) I experience due to having no friends, and a sad miserable life. I knew this already from the POV of the mind ie logically but this was on a much deeper level than that. And it makes me question myself because...all the nondual teachers, they teach that you don't make decisions. That there is no personal choice. There is nondoership and you are just along for the ride. This ephiphany is completely contrast to that. Like, I am typing this out of choice, or am I typing this because "Consciousness" (and I really do put this in quotes now because it seems to me that "Consciousness" does not exist as we call it "Consciousness") wants me to - ergo nondoership? I am fully aware of the dualities between duality (reality) and nonduality (underneath reality) yet I am not getting the nondoership either logically (mind) or experiantally. Consciously I feel like having no friends, the dukkha caused is outweighed by the peace caused. No arguements, no drama, no trying to navigate the complex interelationship dynamics of multiple people. I have tried both and far prefer this way, yet the epiphany said this has caused suffering. But Buddhist Noble truth #1 states life IS dukkha - life IS suffering - so how have I caused my own suffering because anything I did do in life would be suffering? Do I even need to understand this? Maybe the ephiphany just was...and I shouldn't try to get it. Maybe the sky is just blue and we shouldn't have an explanation why the sky is blue? Sorry for the essay. I feel compelled to write it.

This video answers precisely that question https://www.actualized.org/insights/skepticism-and-nonduality

I heard nonduality includes duality.

Any distinction is a form of dualism. Regarding the I am God thing. . . People get confused and twisted because they conflate the personal relative “I” with the absolute level of God. And most people have a ton of preconceived ideas of God which is a hindrance. I think the phrase “I am everything” can be more helpful. Said another way, they are conflating duality and nonduality due to lack of experience with nonduality.

@Peo To me, explaining nonduality using language is quite limited because the human language itself is dual. When you try to explain it, unless you are a gifted teacher, you are at the risk of sounding insane and people will definitely not relate to you, like Jim Carrey as others suggested here. Try to communicate it by experiencing it. You don't have to speak about it unless you are asked directly. Don't just waste your energy on finding the right words, even to yourself, spend it on embodying it and people will see there is something different in you, but more likely this will be about peace and love instead of "my kid's just gone mad, we need to see a shrink." I almost never talk about my spiritual journey, nonduality and stuff like that with my husband for example. On the outer shelf, he identifies with being very logical, very scientific, and a bit religious too. He mostly resists non-religious spiritual teachings. Because I know he resists it, I don't feed his resistance by using my words. However, I can see just living with him and being myself is changing him immensely. And the consciousness will continue to raise whether or not you talk about it. So just focus on your consciousness, and it will benefit the consciousness of all beings on the planet.

@Peo Nonduality is not the reason you want to go on the retreat. What is the reason(s)?

Yes, I understand. This view/experience is tapping into nonduality. Yet its not the full monty. This view/experience is melting into the natural world and becoming the ISness of the natural world. Yet it is also making distinctions and includes separateness. To truly go beyond all paradigms and falsehoods, one word is too many. What is being viewed/experienced above is a profound and beautiful aspect of nonduality. Ime, it is much easier to enter nondual states in nature. Nature is a very powerful teacher of nonduality and ISness.

Wasn't claiming it applied to you btw was a general statement. But surely you've seen, say, an expression of ego then people go "What? No ego here, just nonduality no self"

Hey. Im Konrad, im 19 and this is my first post in this forum, actually I have just discovered it and I am pleasantly surprised. I'm getting ready for my first psychodelic trip with magical mushrooms for about 2-3 weeks. I have several bothering, important questions: 1.what dose should I take on the first trip of Psylocibe Cubensis B +? I think about 1,75 g. My trip is focused primarily on the exploration of consciousness, getting rid of fears that limit me. I've been meditating for a year. I understand the whole nonduality and the fact that the truth is silence.The mushrooms themselves spoke to me. I'm completely ready. 2. should I approach the trip with the intention that mushrooms help me get rid of patterns and fears in my head (My body has a lot of fears, I have small problems with communication in the company. I feel it's all in my DNA.) and broaden my awareness, or should I completely accept what they give me, without any expectations/intentions? 3.Is it better to spend this trip alone, or with a friend who will also eat mushrooms? 4. I really want to get rid of in my body: fears, patterns, limitations. Should I remind all the situations that causes me fear in the morning the same day? For example, when I want to speak in the company (even friends), I feel fear. I do not even understand why. Notice: Please describe complicated things as simply as possible. My English is not great

@Peo Nonduality is post-intellectual / post-rational so it is very hard to communicate through rational discussion. People on this forum are spending waaay too much time in intellectual zones. There are other modes of being that are much juicier. Explaining nonduality through the intellect is like eating a cardboard picture of chocolate. Go straight to the source. Go straight to the direct experience of eating chocolate. Direct experience is much more powerful and direct. Nearly everyone has had glimpses of nonduality. Guide them into reflecting on the own direct experience. For example: 1. Imagine a time in your life you were awestruck by something magnificent. For me, this was seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time and stepping in St. Peters Bascillus in the Vatican. It was so magnificent is was overwhelming. I was speechless. I stood there for a few moments and dissolved. There were no thoughts and no "me". I was still aware, yet there was just magnificence, just beauty. Oneness. After a few moments my self kicked back in and I started thinking things like "This is so amazing!!!! I totally need to get a picture of this and post in on Facebook. I wish that couple would get out of the way - they are blocking my view". Notice the difference between the nondual glimpse and the conditioned dualistic state. These are very short glimpses and most people may not reflect on them. Yet nearly everyone has had an experience like this and you can encourage them to reflect on it. 2. Love. Many people have had moments in which they experienced deep love. Perhaps with a child, a pet or a lover. The person "melts" and loses sense of themself. There is no "me" and "you" there is just the presence of love. This is generally a very brief glimpse and the person "snaps out of it". Then they start thinking dualistically again. Stuff like "I love you", "This feels so good" or insecure thoughts like "What if she leaves me?". Again, notice the contrast between the nondual experience and the dualistic conditioning. 3. Flow States. a.k.a "being in the zone". Most people who have participated in sports or can play a musical instrument has had glimpses into flow states - the zone. For example, a football player completely in the Now. All thoughts dissolve. All sense of "me" dissolve. There is just happenings in the moment. Similarly, a musician playing the trumpet that loses sense of themself and environment. It's as if the person is one with the instrument. As if the trumpet is playing itself. Again, these are brief glimpses. The athlete will snap out of it and think dualistically again. Stuff like "He fouled me!!". The musician might start thinking dualistically with stuff like "dang, I just missed that note". Nearly everyone can relate to one or more of the above. Not only that, it is also a HUGE turn on and gets people's interest. The above examples are the juice of life. Everyone wants to experience more of it. Now imagine telling someone that rather than being in the zone for 2 seconds once a month, you can be in the zone state 20min everyday. Who wouldn't want that? After explaining the above, I ask people "What percentage of your day do you spend in the above states of consciousness?". For most people these are small glimpses - perhaps 0.01% of their life. So brief they may not even be consciously aware of it. I've explained the above and people have responded "Yes! I've experienced that! I didn't know it was a real thing. I didn't know it had a name. How do I experience more of it?". Now I tell people two things. . . Imagine increasing your time of the above nondual states from 0.01% of your life to 1% of your life. That is a 100X increase. Everyone says sign me up. Next I say "I only gave you three flavors of nondual states. There are dozens more that are equally wonderful". This increases their interest and and desire.

There are no '' enlightened'' beings. Only God IS. Once you become conscious of God and that I am It, you can do whatever you want. Why just chop wood and carry water? Why not join an online non-dual forum and expand consciousness for others and see others understanding and perspectives on nonduality and God etc etc. To me that's just fun.

@Schahin Science has ‘proven’ “reality” (your dream) is constructed with 11 dimensions. So the 12th is a reference to nonduality, or seeing the 11, from the perspective of 12th. The 12th is a mystery pointed at by most who are working the 11 dimensions “model”, as the 11 dimensions is used to explain how consciousness (thought & perception) is accomplished by the human brain. I like to see it as the 12th is the scientist creating the 11, unbeknownst to him / her. So it seems like there are 11 dimensions, in dimensionlessness actuality. This will likely lead to the revaluation (apocalypse) human did not evolve as currently assumed. (Aka it’s a dream, now) Collectively, it’s gonna take a while for the paradigm shift of consciousness being infinite (not a product), but really, that’s your own perspective / reality, which is “taking a while”, because that is the dream, ....“a while”. At some point, relatively, a lot of resources will go to discovering that 4 dimensions of “reality” can not be resolved with 11 dimensions “in the brain”. Then science and spirituality must be reconciled for both or either to continue. Paradoxically, that will be the “end” of both, which are not currently anything (just belief). This should at least initially bring to light that the finite perspective sees in in 11 dimensions, or dimensionlessness....but not both. It will be “resolved”, (or “12th dimension seen”) with the understanding and acceptance there are not separate finite perspectives, as science turns the corner into what from the current paradigm might be referrenced as “dream science” (which actually turns out to be non-dream science finally, but only in hindsight). Or more simply, that there never was 3 or 4 dimensions, only the dimensionlessness experience (“dream”). Having watched the most recent video + 30 silent days, Leo will probably be “the one” who brings this breakthrough together / to light (more literally, bringing the light to experience). Soon the term “outer space” will feel like “the earth is the center of the universe”...as it’s realized you are the “center” of the “universe”.

1.75g is a light to moderate dose. Based on what you wrote, you seem to be interested in using psychedelics for personal development (to discover and work through subconscious fears. Especially for your initial time, I would not get close to ego death. It can be very insightful, yet also very destabilizing. And the sub ego death zone can induce anxiety and distraction. I wouldn’t go higher than 1.75g and would consider a bit lower so you still feel grounded during the trip and it is a positive experience. And a light dose is much easier to integrate into sober life. I had a similiar intention when I first used psychedelics - to discover subconscious fears. Ime I would suggest a couple things. First, I would reorient the mind so it is not so self seeking oriented. I’m hearing a self that mushrooms are a tool to get what the self wants - to remove subconscious fears. I could get away with that mindset at lower doses, yet not at moderate or high doses. Here, I would reframe the intention as a humble request that subconscious fears be revealed. I would not approach ego death with any type of agenda. If one goes into that zone with a mindset that they are in control and are using shrooms as a tool, it will likely be a rough ride. When the self dissolves, nonduality doesn’t care about the self. There is no separate self to care about. Yet at 1.75 you would likely be below this zone. Second, I would plan to trip three times on this intention. The first time on a low dose then higher if needed. Trips can be very different based on dose, mindset and setting. The deep insight might not come in the first trip. You may be in bliss the whole or throwing up or staring at something for an hour. If you do three trips, the odds of having one with deep insights is pretty good. As well, the theme of each trip will likely be different. You may be shown the nature of fear from three different perspectives which may give a more complete experience and understanding.

Personally I find Maslow's Herairchy to be flawed as you don't require love/belonging or esteem to secure the bottom two or the top two. Also Self Transcedence shouldn't mean sense of meaning, it should mean sense of knowing what you are, / nonduality at the very least. Again it is flawed because it only represents the illusionary "I" world.

you need to understand that you are not only god but you are also the devil. ignoring your shadowside will lead to suffering. of course the divine is in you and it’s cute and loving - but understand that there is duality within nonduality, if you want or not. you just saw a tiny glimpse of what god really is.

because there is duality in nonduality. the devil exists within everything. even the devil has two faces.

The deeper I settle into nonduality the less I feel inclined to talk about it on forums. I have found myself withdrawing from all communities, like there is no need because of "divine knowledge" of being part of everything + happenings of nondoership. I wrote out a huge reply and deleted it because it just seems rather absurd to talk about...words cannot describe it very well and it feels like it won't help you either. Everyones "path" to nothing / nowhere is completely different and I have found on my own that reading peoples experiences leads to some expectancy then confusion when my "path" doesn't follow theirs. I say "path" because there is no path but that's a sentence you won't understand until / if you experience it, another example of why this all seems silly.