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@whoareyou Of course But what I'm telling you is, awakenings can occur at any stage. They will then be filtered and understood through the lens of that stage. This notion of "full enlightenment" that you guys like to use is absurd. It's sloppy and creates many foolish conclusions.

This all makes sense now, The correlation between an enlightened person and their level of understanding is their mastery it is not their mastery of consciousness, this is a misleading statement it is their teachings By my calculations, and understanding of absolute infinity, which is at this point quite extensive The only missing part is a full enlightenment I would confirm that leo has surpassed all other enlightened beings teachings with 100% certainty. What this pertains to is his teachings that relate to "understanding of truth" which translates to understanding of "consciousness" an ego is a heavily loaded term, the ego still exists in absolute infinity, it can not be removed. Nothing can be removed from absolute infinity because there is only absolute infinity and consciousness. There is also nothing that can be fininite or monopolised in absolute infinity , because this would limit infinity, which wouldn't make it infinite. Therefore, i am 1000% sure my understanding of absolute infinity is correct. Including the trinity. every prediction i've ever made except leo becoming the unpopular saint, because at the time i didn't realise that things organise at higher levels. What i'm saying is there is only one enlightened being with knowledge on par with leo's and i think that is sadhguru. There is an anomaly with his consciousness, on the lines of jesus consciousness. Lets put it this way, consciousness is a fractal. most of us have to work to have deeper and deeper consciousness fractal. What i'm saying is sadhguru is the deepest fractal born today. The reasoning behind this is because he has been gifted "inverse fractal consciousness" i would call it. where as we have "reverse fractal consciousness" we look into consciousness fractal to give answers, he looks out of fractal consciousness to give answers. Which is EXACTLY my point about stage dark (transcended turquoise SD)

@Truth Addict I edited my post above. That’s a subjective , it’s for people who genuinely like consciousness and just really discovering new things. Just like discovering truth and actually want to help people/ change the world. To me the answer is yes, you could live a pretty cool and fulfilling life. But that’s my subjective opinion. The real fun starts at stage teal where you fuse with consciousness at a deeper level and fall even more in love with it. If you want to end your suffering and end your conceptual life rather than know truth about what is possible in consciousness (reality) and how it works. Then feel free to go for full enlightenment. If you think duality is beautiful then feel free to go to enlightenment (something = nothing) but these people won’t have the same impact on the world scalewise as this conscious pathway. And well if you want to sit and do nothing then feel free to become enlightened nothing and see the whole world as an illusion. It’s maximising free will and maximising life purpose of every individual on this forum, reduces confusion. And sorts out all metaphysical metaknowledge miscommunication. Alas the echo chamber won’t come online for another 4-5 years probably. This is seeding phase. But this is basically the solution to everyone’s problems lol.

Yes because it's unnecessary to once you understand stage coral lol This whole zen and buddhist tradition as leo says "grinding yourself to nihilism" is ridiculous. That is not the point of life. The point of life is not to become enlightened. The point of life is to live. However you can't do this until after nirvana. after completing stage coral. your non-duality is good but its time to reach full enlightenment. you need to have insights about why everything is the way it is. This comes from contemplating into the nature of everything. Which will take a couple of years, just like it took a couple of years to reach enlightenment. But you need to do this from INSIDE your non-dual state, whenever your in it. You need to understand that everything = truth. just like how you saw in the first place that everything is an illusion. you need to do the reverse process and realise truth = everything and truth is not an illusion , but there is no difference between an illusion and real. Making it neither but you can't have this insight while you are stuck in your non-duality thinking its the end and this is why the quality of your life is suffering because you don't understand why everything is the way it is

Also something your also pointing about theres bigger forms of god and how you can reach a 100%. Andrew Cohen (whos got a mixed history as a spiritual teacher) talked with ken wilber a lot about this idea. He phrased it as evolutionary enlightenment and both ken and spiral dynamics/Don Beck were behind the whole thing. Basically the idea is that God/Ground of Being/Non-Duality itself is evolving and changing and that no one ever reaches full enlightenment because ISness itself is always changing and evolving, so a human life is always going to be playing a game of catch up so to say or constantly opening up to the potentials and newness that is born every second (im adding in a few of my own interpretations as well). Although if your a avid reader you'll find quotes from Zen and perhaps Hinduism (my memory for this kinda stuff isn't great) and probably many others that elude to this evernewness idea along with a never changing idea (like a always ITSELF of which is CHANGNESS). Buddha speaks of nothing is permanent, but I'm not completely sure he was referring to this in this context we are using it in. So remain open, its not something you have to figure out all the way or know for a exact fact, since its probably changing anyways.....lol.

@nowimhere a permanent state of self-inquiry will get you to stage coral easier, a permanent state of meditation will get you to stage turquoise quicker. self-inquiry will get you to stage turquoise or non-dual awakening. But it is the fastest method of breaking out of that "safe spot" and breaking through to true god-realisation. (going from stage turquoise to stage coral) , meditation itself is misunderstood, meditation is used to reach a state of samadhi (oneness) , from which then you contemplate the nature of different things- using the mind. The general teachings tell you not to use the mind and hence forth there is a contradiction in "how to meditate" and reaching total enlightenment .. so i'm not sure how you want to play it In conclusion, they are two different things until they converge at the state of oneness or "traditional enlightenment" but after "traditional enlightenment" to get to "full enlightenment" these two methods have different pros and cons. I think self-inquiry is better because you get an idea of how to contemplate. The draw back of self-inquiry is that it uses a lot of monkey mind and hence meditation is the best route to get to the first step of enlightenment. Non-dual awakening maharashi's technique is so powerful that i could be transported to another planet, hypothetically and start self-inquiring there to find out the nature of that planet. That is how ridiculous this man's technique is. it would probably be 10x -100x the effort to do it with meditation. [just some funny extra information]

@Inliytened1 Yes so what are we in disagreement about, we are saying the same thing. I just created a distinction in itself, to make seekers understand that enlightenment is more than a one step process. it is not clear to people that this is full enlightenment and therefore we have to make it easier for people to understand. So the next question is, can you create a new distinction yourself and fill it with void (by this i mean have you tried to find a new frequency of consciousness. such as collective consciousness? [for lack of a better term] The second question is... do you think @zeroISinfinity understands the same thing that you do? you've see his arguments with me, what does his words tell you

@Aakash what I'm trying to help you see is that you have to be able to see him as BOTH he and yourself by becoming directly conscious of that via awakening/mysticism. Spiral dynamics won't do that for you. You may know it in concept (that he is you) but it's not the same thing. So I'm simply stating spiral dynamics isn't part of awakening. What you are calling de-enlightenment is just full enlightenment really. It's not just becoming the formless - collapsing into only pure being is definitely the first stage but also deepening your enlightenment through further mystical experiences in which consciousness elevates a thousand fold and you become the godhead in form - thus realizing directly that form is identical to formlesness. And it's all you.

Spiritual teachers who claim to be enlightened are still trapped in the global ego! Why? Because their bodies are evidently still of the global ego. What do the enlightened people plan to do? Do they plan to go to heaven? If, so is heaven a separate place? Isn't that duality? Do they plan to become disembodies spirits? Isn't that the same as a ghost? Do they plan to reincarnate? Isn't that a stupid plan if they are in contact with infinite intelligence? So there is a severe state of schizophrenia among enlightened people today. Their minds may be enlightened, but what good is that if their bodies are still ego bodies? That's still duality! Full enlightenment must as I see it be to become the full intelligence of the universe, and to continue to grow old and die seems more like infinite stupidity to me.

@Identity I think that would be full enlightenment, you couldn't be here anymore if that was the case.

Honestly, I am just sick of all the hassle to work on myself to eventually attain full enlightenment or nirvana just to fragment myself again and start the cycle of misery all over again from the beginning ad infinitum.

I have certain needs which can not be met. This does not mean I enjoy sadness. I have to find a way to transcend these needs or suffer for life. I just look at my strengths and weaknesses and focus my efforts on what is likely to succeed. For me, attaining full enlightenment is a far better use of my time as it is more likely to succeed than seduction and all of that other stuff. I mean, come on, I look as seductive as a bloody fence post! No offense to fence posts. So the best course of action is just to consciously watch the feelings of lack, etc until the ego finally gives in?

@Leo Gura I didn't know that's possible. Full enlightenment i guess.

The relief from practices is temporary at best. Full enlightenment or the end of suffering isn't permanent either, nothing is. I want experience to end forever, more than a drowning man wants air, more than a son wants to see his father one last time after he sped along on his motorbike into a tractor emerging from a field and became one with its engine block and more than a man blinded wants his sight back. I am infinitely powerful so there's a way. I want to destroy myself.

@Leo Gura My point is being on the “devils” side keeps you from “seeing god” or realising it. It is not a value judgement to say cravings keep your from full enlightenment. It’s like saying u have engine issues, fixing it will help your car run faster. “But the engine issues are a part of the car” you could say, but that’s besides the point.

@Leo Gura Not fully. Yes. It is fairly clear. On the cross Jesus says “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? “ Then he says “I thirst.” Clear indicators of an individual will, resistance, and so forth. Then he says “It is finished.” “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” His will, his cravings, his thirst and resistance gone. After his “death” he is reborn in heaven. Before he was aware he was “god”. The so. Or god. Yet it was not total. Craving existed. Thirst did as well. Defilements and so on. With their eradication he reached full enlightenment. Keep in mind the crucifixion is likely a symbolic event.

@Leo Gura That event was symbolic though I believe, Christ’s death and resurrection after his abandonment are his full enlightenment after his deepest dark night of the soul, but that’s besides the point. Lets leave it there : )

Never said you did. The ridding of defilements goes hand in hand with full enlightenment, however, for each defilement, each piece of subconscious baggage and energetic blockage distorts and does not allow for full clarity. This has little to do with moral perfection and behaviour. It is about ridding one’s self of delusions that persist beyond awakening. Delusions that limit one’s reference point. That is how depth is gained. Therein lies the difference between a Buddha and someone on this forum taking about how they don’t exist in a manic state.

@Arhattobe I'm 2,5 years in no sense of agency, no localized consciousness awakening and I still do experience aversion People I've mentioned are awake Mystical traditions may even equate full enlightenment with the ability to fly, but there are simply no real-world examples of this. If someone is claiming to fully eradicated aversion, can we take him to the lab and find out? I'm not trying to be rude, in fact, I wish that it would be possible.

@Enlightenment There are also people that meditate for decades but don’t awaken. Don’t understand your point. “Eradication of defilements is not possible I’ve never met any”... A lot of mystical traditions equate the eradication of defilements with full enlightenment. Theravada Buddhism being the most sober, and if you have been awake for a number of years and you pay close attention to the energetic process within you this becomes very clear.

Full enlightenment rids you of all defilements and the energetic and physical issues that are a consequence of their existence. Simple stream entry does is what your describing and tbh it shouldn’t be thought of as enlightenment. Just awakening. The path after is long and hard.

@Leo Gura what do you think about Bodhisattvas, monks/saints who (claim to) have made a vow to not attain full Enlightenment until they help every human being that they can? I'm (open-mindedly) skeptical about such claims, because I'm not sure whether a modern day Bodhisattva would want to be reborn as a monk; wouldn't they rather be someone like Sadhguru or Peter Ralston, so that they could serve others without limiting themselves to a religion or a medium of teaching.

@Shin they need to reach turquoise to get full enlightenment (the one that Leo talks about even after getting enlightened). Until then they are just good boys.

Holy shit, that was the best answer i could ask for. Seriously, hit the nail right in the head. I came here to share an insight i had right now and you came with the perfect response, this is exactly what's going on. The insight is this one, if someone could share with me your point of view, that would be awesome: I was watching this video: Matt explained perfectly that my conception of enlightenment was false, i was having the impression that if i got enlightened, i was going to lose my sense of self and lost all will to live life, everything would be so flat and i was going to do crazy shit like walking around naked or something because that's kind of the trajectory that i have been walking for a long time and things seems to be worse and i keep getting stuck in life. I was trying to not have an ego so i didn't commit to anything because that, for me, would mean that my ego was strong and more difficult to peel away. It is a limiting belief lol My version of partial enlightenment includes gurus who fucks their followers because they still have an ego and delude themselves. My version of full enlightenment is ramana maharshi and neem karoli baba, two fully realized being that walk around with minimal clothes fully in the present not even caring for their bodies, if there were no followers they would sit and meditate into bliss until their bodies drop death like changing shirts.

So "I" got bored and decided to meditate lying down on "my" bed, And something peculiar happened during the session. At about the end, near the time "I" opened "my" eyes again, The ego voice (or just "my" thaughts admitted that it is a lie. It said something to the effect of (and "I'm" paraphrasing.) "I am a lie. My life, my birth, my death is a lie. My wants, my desires, my fears and my anxieties is a lie." And it felt like a bit of a burden was unloaded, lifted from me. It felt good and I felt lighter and better. Happier and was laughing afterwards. Afterwards, I was realizing things like what Enlightenment really means. Not understanding the bullet points of what enlightenment says. Or being cognitively aware of it and living according to it like some philosophy. But actually becoming it. BECOMING enlightened means, becoming enlightenment itself. And realizing your truth as truth. Your true self as truth. As enlightenment itself. The truth that Leo, the Buddha Jesus and many more taught is that the ego and all the thaught stories and narratives beliefs and ideas are delusion. All of it. Which included all fears, anxieties, neurosis, desires and all man-made concepts. Which means that body or mind (in the conventional use of the term) or psychology or personality you believe to be you, that thing which is yours, your life, seperate from other life forms, people and material things. Ego is a delusion. And that what everything is, is just one infinate hallucination or dream as Leo described it. This hallucinating agent is what is called, concuousness or pure, empty awareness. Becoming itself as form. Existing and being as form. But as a hallucination. Which means there is only me. And you the reader are me. "My" question is, after an enlightenment experience, is it usual for the ego voice, the linguistic thaught voice to be in your head? Basically, for ego thinking continue? As it's still continuing for "me" And does that mean that this mini enlightenment experience of the ego admiring itself to be a lie and realizing, becoming enlightenment itself and as the true self as enlightenment itself only small parts of a much larger enlightenment journey? At full enlightenment does the ego voice disappear forever? Or does it remain? And how does contemplation/thinking happen without the voice? Does thinking happen at all? Is there still contemplation in the usual way or does the nature of the way contemplation happens change?