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Within Buddhism, full and total enlightenment is the same as completely ridding yourself of avijia. Avijia = ignorance. Ignorance isn’t removed all at once, however. It is shed step by step. Step by step our defilements & our impurities are purged from our systems. This purging eventually culminates and results in the dropping of the first fetter: the identity view - the immense self involvement and attachment one has to one’s personality, identity, body and mind. This is what the modern spiritual community calls non duality. For those that enter non duality, however, it becomes abundantly clear that regardless of the dramatic loss of tension upon awakening, tension still remains. Ignorant actions, thoughts and behaviours still remain. Traditionally, within the non dual community, such tension is easily dismissed as “mind stuff”. Yet why does such “mind stuff” still remain post awakening? A lot of the same people also report growth and deepening. How can that be? If ignorance is gone and one’s clarity complete, there should be no growth. If one has completely disidentified with the body mind organism one should not report such things. Yet not only do such things happen, but many teachers even talk about levels of enlightenment. In this thread I will answer 1 - why that is? 2 - What the substance of the path is, pre and post awakening. 3 - how can one open one’s self to the substance of the path and shed one’s defilements, and achieve complete and total enlightenment. Let’s start with number 1. Why is that? The human being comes with some built in programming. We are programmed to survive, and we primarily rely on our intellect to do so while our intellect relies on its understanding. The issue is, the world is a complete unknown. We can never understand the world. It is unpredictable, always changing, moving and way beyond our scope of understanding. This threatens our survival. Once we feel threatened, we are now at odds with everything that threatens us (this also separates us from what threatens us.) The more threatened we feel the more at odds and separated we become. The more self involved we become. Now let’s get back to the path. On the path, as we decrease our level of self involvement, we progress. This is the case with people off the path as well. For example, a sociopath or a serial killer is completely self involved and doesn’t even see other people as human. This is why he can kill, maim and torture them. At a certain point we hit a threshold and our level of self involvement results in the dropping of the first fetter. In non duality. Yet the subconscious and instinctual need to survive, our fears, traumas and control mechanisms are deeply ingrained in us. This creates cognitive dissonance. Why, you might ask, do I still feel fear, anxiety, depression, joy, pettiness and all these human emotions even though I see clearly that I am not the body mind? Why do I still put others down and think of myself as primary even though I see that so on and so forth? Because your seeing is surface deep. Only on the level of the conscious mind. You still fear, you still attempt to control on many levels within your subconscious and beyond. These questions are often ignored and shut out by people in non duality for the drop in self involvement has resulted in a previously unimaginable peace that they do not want to question, that they do not want to rock. So just as a religious person clings on to his god for comfort (and ultimately survival), the non dual man does so with void. 2 & 3 - what is the substance of the path pre and post awakening? & how to shed one’s defilements. The substance of the path relates to clear seeing of three things within Buddhism. Three major facets of truth. These three things are 1- Anicca 2- Anatta 3- Dukkha. The more clearly you see these three aspects of truth the less self involved you become, and the less self involved you become the more progress is had. This is true pre and post awakening. In fact, complete seeing of these truths on all levels of the mind (subconscious and beyond) without any cognitive dissonance left = full enlightenment. Before I delve into these three facets of truth, however, let me talk a bit about truth itself. Truth is never not present. I don’t mean this in a non dual way, but the facts of life, if they are indeed facts of life, should be evident in every waking second of life itself. If you do not see it, you are simply turning away from it. By that logic if you do indeed want to see them, you should first reflect on what is making you not see such truths, and then reflect on the truths themselves. Now, let’s define and then talk about the truths a little bit. 1 - Anicca. Anicca has two translations that I think capture its essence nicely. One is “one can not maintain anything to one’s satisfaction” while the other is “impermanence”. 2- Anatta. Anatta, popularly translated as no self, has another more nuanced translation that I personally think is superior: “the inability to control”. A self is merely a series of complex control mechanisms created in response to fear after all. 3 - Dukkha - suffering that can be stopped from arising. Why are these truths so important, you may ask? Self involvement and ignorance are both a direct result of not seeing these truths clearly. When we do not see the impermanent nature of the world, and our absolute inability to maintain anything to our satisfaction (Anicca), we attempt to control life’s circumstances. We exert our will onto the world (the opposite of Anatta) and then, when life shows us that it can not be controlled and pinned down and eternalised, Dukkha arises. Suffering arises. Instead of constantly living through that loop of pain, the next time you feel pain, and the next time you suffer, reflect and ask yourself: in what way am I attempting to pin down reality? To eternalise it? In what way am I attempting to control life? In what way am I failing to recognise the absolute truths that are anicca and Anatta at this moment? Then, by reflecting on and seeing these fundamentals of reality all around you, In death, decay, aging, and every second of our waking life, the clarity of them will increase further. Bring your ignorance to the light by asking how you are failing to recognise these truths, then burn them slowly through constant reflection of these truths : ) That was a really long post. A lot to take in too I assume so sorry if it wasn’t too clear. If you have any questions regarding it, feel free to ask.

As long as you have a single thought in your mind you're bias. Only perfect equanimity is not bias. Only full enlightenment is not bias. I mean full enlightenment, not that self-realization stuff.

Does full enlightenment require spirtual awakening plus going up through all stages of spiral Dynamics. That is the ultimate understanding for me now.

@whoareyou Of course But what I'm telling you is, awakenings can occur at any stage. They will then be filtered and understood through the lens of that stage. This notion of "full enlightenment" that you guys like to use is absurd. It's sloppy and creates many foolish conclusions.

This all makes sense now, The correlation between an enlightened person and their level of understanding is their mastery it is not their mastery of consciousness, this is a misleading statement it is their teachings By my calculations, and understanding of absolute infinity, which is at this point quite extensive The only missing part is a full enlightenment I would confirm that leo has surpassed all other enlightened beings teachings with 100% certainty. What this pertains to is his teachings that relate to "understanding of truth" which translates to understanding of "consciousness" an ego is a heavily loaded term, the ego still exists in absolute infinity, it can not be removed. Nothing can be removed from absolute infinity because there is only absolute infinity and consciousness. There is also nothing that can be fininite or monopolised in absolute infinity , because this would limit infinity, which wouldn't make it infinite. Therefore, i am 1000% sure my understanding of absolute infinity is correct. Including the trinity. every prediction i've ever made except leo becoming the unpopular saint, because at the time i didn't realise that things organise at higher levels. What i'm saying is there is only one enlightened being with knowledge on par with leo's and i think that is sadhguru. There is an anomaly with his consciousness, on the lines of jesus consciousness. Lets put it this way, consciousness is a fractal. most of us have to work to have deeper and deeper consciousness fractal. What i'm saying is sadhguru is the deepest fractal born today. The reasoning behind this is because he has been gifted "inverse fractal consciousness" i would call it. where as we have "reverse fractal consciousness" we look into consciousness fractal to give answers, he looks out of fractal consciousness to give answers. Which is EXACTLY my point about stage dark (transcended turquoise SD)

@Truth Addict I edited my post above. That’s a subjective , it’s for people who genuinely like consciousness and just really discovering new things. Just like discovering truth and actually want to help people/ change the world. To me the answer is yes, you could live a pretty cool and fulfilling life. But that’s my subjective opinion. The real fun starts at stage teal where you fuse with consciousness at a deeper level and fall even more in love with it. If you want to end your suffering and end your conceptual life rather than know truth about what is possible in consciousness (reality) and how it works. Then feel free to go for full enlightenment. If you think duality is beautiful then feel free to go to enlightenment (something = nothing) but these people won’t have the same impact on the world scalewise as this conscious pathway. And well if you want to sit and do nothing then feel free to become enlightened nothing and see the whole world as an illusion. It’s maximising free will and maximising life purpose of every individual on this forum, reduces confusion. And sorts out all metaphysical metaknowledge miscommunication. Alas the echo chamber won’t come online for another 4-5 years probably. This is seeding phase. But this is basically the solution to everyone’s problems lol.

Yes because it's unnecessary to once you understand stage coral lol This whole zen and buddhist tradition as leo says "grinding yourself to nihilism" is ridiculous. That is not the point of life. The point of life is not to become enlightened. The point of life is to live. However you can't do this until after nirvana. after completing stage coral. your non-duality is good but its time to reach full enlightenment. you need to have insights about why everything is the way it is. This comes from contemplating into the nature of everything. Which will take a couple of years, just like it took a couple of years to reach enlightenment. But you need to do this from INSIDE your non-dual state, whenever your in it. You need to understand that everything = truth. just like how you saw in the first place that everything is an illusion. you need to do the reverse process and realise truth = everything and truth is not an illusion , but there is no difference between an illusion and real. Making it neither but you can't have this insight while you are stuck in your non-duality thinking its the end and this is why the quality of your life is suffering because you don't understand why everything is the way it is

Also something your also pointing about theres bigger forms of god and how you can reach a 100%. Andrew Cohen (whos got a mixed history as a spiritual teacher) talked with ken wilber a lot about this idea. He phrased it as evolutionary enlightenment and both ken and spiral dynamics/Don Beck were behind the whole thing. Basically the idea is that God/Ground of Being/Non-Duality itself is evolving and changing and that no one ever reaches full enlightenment because ISness itself is always changing and evolving, so a human life is always going to be playing a game of catch up so to say or constantly opening up to the potentials and newness that is born every second (im adding in a few of my own interpretations as well). Although if your a avid reader you'll find quotes from Zen and perhaps Hinduism (my memory for this kinda stuff isn't great) and probably many others that elude to this evernewness idea along with a never changing idea (like a always ITSELF of which is CHANGNESS). Buddha speaks of nothing is permanent, but I'm not completely sure he was referring to this in this context we are using it in. So remain open, its not something you have to figure out all the way or know for a exact fact, since its probably changing anyways.....lol.

@nowimhere a permanent state of self-inquiry will get you to stage coral easier, a permanent state of meditation will get you to stage turquoise quicker. self-inquiry will get you to stage turquoise or non-dual awakening. But it is the fastest method of breaking out of that "safe spot" and breaking through to true god-realisation. (going from stage turquoise to stage coral) , meditation itself is misunderstood, meditation is used to reach a state of samadhi (oneness) , from which then you contemplate the nature of different things- using the mind. The general teachings tell you not to use the mind and hence forth there is a contradiction in "how to meditate" and reaching total enlightenment .. so i'm not sure how you want to play it In conclusion, they are two different things until they converge at the state of oneness or "traditional enlightenment" but after "traditional enlightenment" to get to "full enlightenment" these two methods have different pros and cons. I think self-inquiry is better because you get an idea of how to contemplate. The draw back of self-inquiry is that it uses a lot of monkey mind and hence meditation is the best route to get to the first step of enlightenment. Non-dual awakening maharashi's technique is so powerful that i could be transported to another planet, hypothetically and start self-inquiring there to find out the nature of that planet. That is how ridiculous this man's technique is. it would probably be 10x -100x the effort to do it with meditation. [just some funny extra information]

@Inliytened1 Yes so what are we in disagreement about, we are saying the same thing. I just created a distinction in itself, to make seekers understand that enlightenment is more than a one step process. it is not clear to people that this is full enlightenment and therefore we have to make it easier for people to understand. So the next question is, can you create a new distinction yourself and fill it with void (by this i mean have you tried to find a new frequency of consciousness. such as collective consciousness? [for lack of a better term] The second question is... do you think @zeroISinfinity understands the same thing that you do? you've see his arguments with me, what does his words tell you

@Aakash what I'm trying to help you see is that you have to be able to see him as BOTH he and yourself by becoming directly conscious of that via awakening/mysticism. Spiral dynamics won't do that for you. You may know it in concept (that he is you) but it's not the same thing. So I'm simply stating spiral dynamics isn't part of awakening. What you are calling de-enlightenment is just full enlightenment really. It's not just becoming the formless - collapsing into only pure being is definitely the first stage but also deepening your enlightenment through further mystical experiences in which consciousness elevates a thousand fold and you become the godhead in form - thus realizing directly that form is identical to formlesness. And it's all you.

Spiritual teachers who claim to be enlightened are still trapped in the global ego! Why? Because their bodies are evidently still of the global ego. What do the enlightened people plan to do? Do they plan to go to heaven? If, so is heaven a separate place? Isn't that duality? Do they plan to become disembodies spirits? Isn't that the same as a ghost? Do they plan to reincarnate? Isn't that a stupid plan if they are in contact with infinite intelligence? So there is a severe state of schizophrenia among enlightened people today. Their minds may be enlightened, but what good is that if their bodies are still ego bodies? That's still duality! Full enlightenment must as I see it be to become the full intelligence of the universe, and to continue to grow old and die seems more like infinite stupidity to me.

@Identity I think that would be full enlightenment, you couldn't be here anymore if that was the case.

Honestly, I am just sick of all the hassle to work on myself to eventually attain full enlightenment or nirvana just to fragment myself again and start the cycle of misery all over again from the beginning ad infinitum.

I have certain needs which can not be met. This does not mean I enjoy sadness. I have to find a way to transcend these needs or suffer for life. I just look at my strengths and weaknesses and focus my efforts on what is likely to succeed. For me, attaining full enlightenment is a far better use of my time as it is more likely to succeed than seduction and all of that other stuff. I mean, come on, I look as seductive as a bloody fence post! No offense to fence posts. So the best course of action is just to consciously watch the feelings of lack, etc until the ego finally gives in?

@Leo Gura I didn't know that's possible. Full enlightenment i guess.

The relief from practices is temporary at best. Full enlightenment or the end of suffering isn't permanent either, nothing is. I want experience to end forever, more than a drowning man wants air, more than a son wants to see his father one last time after he sped along on his motorbike into a tractor emerging from a field and became one with its engine block and more than a man blinded wants his sight back. I am infinitely powerful so there's a way. I want to destroy myself.

@Leo Gura My point is being on the “devils” side keeps you from “seeing god” or realising it. It is not a value judgement to say cravings keep your from full enlightenment. It’s like saying u have engine issues, fixing it will help your car run faster. “But the engine issues are a part of the car” you could say, but that’s besides the point.

@Leo Gura Not fully. Yes. It is fairly clear. On the cross Jesus says “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? “ Then he says “I thirst.” Clear indicators of an individual will, resistance, and so forth. Then he says “It is finished.” “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” His will, his cravings, his thirst and resistance gone. After his “death” he is reborn in heaven. Before he was aware he was “god”. The so. Or god. Yet it was not total. Craving existed. Thirst did as well. Defilements and so on. With their eradication he reached full enlightenment. Keep in mind the crucifixion is likely a symbolic event.

@Leo Gura That event was symbolic though I believe, Christ’s death and resurrection after his abandonment are his full enlightenment after his deepest dark night of the soul, but that’s besides the point. Lets leave it there : )

Never said you did. The ridding of defilements goes hand in hand with full enlightenment, however, for each defilement, each piece of subconscious baggage and energetic blockage distorts and does not allow for full clarity. This has little to do with moral perfection and behaviour. It is about ridding one’s self of delusions that persist beyond awakening. Delusions that limit one’s reference point. That is how depth is gained. Therein lies the difference between a Buddha and someone on this forum taking about how they don’t exist in a manic state.

@Arhattobe I'm 2,5 years in no sense of agency, no localized consciousness awakening and I still do experience aversion People I've mentioned are awake Mystical traditions may even equate full enlightenment with the ability to fly, but there are simply no real-world examples of this. If someone is claiming to fully eradicated aversion, can we take him to the lab and find out? I'm not trying to be rude, in fact, I wish that it would be possible.

@Enlightenment There are also people that meditate for decades but don’t awaken. Don’t understand your point. “Eradication of defilements is not possible I’ve never met any”... A lot of mystical traditions equate the eradication of defilements with full enlightenment. Theravada Buddhism being the most sober, and if you have been awake for a number of years and you pay close attention to the energetic process within you this becomes very clear.

Full enlightenment rids you of all defilements and the energetic and physical issues that are a consequence of their existence. Simple stream entry does is what your describing and tbh it shouldn’t be thought of as enlightenment. Just awakening. The path after is long and hard.

@Leo Gura what do you think about Bodhisattvas, monks/saints who (claim to) have made a vow to not attain full Enlightenment until they help every human being that they can? I'm (open-mindedly) skeptical about such claims, because I'm not sure whether a modern day Bodhisattva would want to be reborn as a monk; wouldn't they rather be someone like Sadhguru or Peter Ralston, so that they could serve others without limiting themselves to a religion or a medium of teaching.