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@nowimhere a permanent state of self-inquiry will get you to stage coral easier, a permanent state of meditation will get you to stage turquoise quicker. self-inquiry will get you to stage turquoise or non-dual awakening. But it is the fastest method of breaking out of that "safe spot" and breaking through to true god-realisation. (going from stage turquoise to stage coral) , meditation itself is misunderstood, meditation is used to reach a state of samadhi (oneness) , from which then you contemplate the nature of different things- using the mind. The general teachings tell you not to use the mind and hence forth there is a contradiction in "how to meditate" and reaching total enlightenment .. so i'm not sure how you want to play it In conclusion, they are two different things until they converge at the state of oneness or "traditional enlightenment" but after "traditional enlightenment" to get to "full enlightenment" these two methods have different pros and cons. I think self-inquiry is better because you get an idea of how to contemplate. The draw back of self-inquiry is that it uses a lot of monkey mind and hence meditation is the best route to get to the first step of enlightenment. Non-dual awakening maharashi's technique is so powerful that i could be transported to another planet, hypothetically and start self-inquiring there to find out the nature of that planet. That is how ridiculous this man's technique is. it would probably be 10x -100x the effort to do it with meditation. [just some funny extra information]

@Inliytened1 Yes so what are we in disagreement about, we are saying the same thing. I just created a distinction in itself, to make seekers understand that enlightenment is more than a one step process. it is not clear to people that this is full enlightenment and therefore we have to make it easier for people to understand. So the next question is, can you create a new distinction yourself and fill it with void (by this i mean have you tried to find a new frequency of consciousness. such as collective consciousness? [for lack of a better term] The second question is... do you think @zeroISinfinity understands the same thing that you do? you've see his arguments with me, what does his words tell you

@Aakash what I'm trying to help you see is that you have to be able to see him as BOTH he and yourself by becoming directly conscious of that via awakening/mysticism. Spiral dynamics won't do that for you. You may know it in concept (that he is you) but it's not the same thing. So I'm simply stating spiral dynamics isn't part of awakening. What you are calling de-enlightenment is just full enlightenment really. It's not just becoming the formless - collapsing into only pure being is definitely the first stage but also deepening your enlightenment through further mystical experiences in which consciousness elevates a thousand fold and you become the godhead in form - thus realizing directly that form is identical to formlesness. And it's all you.

Spiritual teachers who claim to be enlightened are still trapped in the global ego! Why? Because their bodies are evidently still of the global ego. What do the enlightened people plan to do? Do they plan to go to heaven? If, so is heaven a separate place? Isn't that duality? Do they plan to become disembodies spirits? Isn't that the same as a ghost? Do they plan to reincarnate? Isn't that a stupid plan if they are in contact with infinite intelligence? So there is a severe state of schizophrenia among enlightened people today. Their minds may be enlightened, but what good is that if their bodies are still ego bodies? That's still duality! Full enlightenment must as I see it be to become the full intelligence of the universe, and to continue to grow old and die seems more like infinite stupidity to me.

@Identity I think that would be full enlightenment, you couldn't be here anymore if that was the case.

Honestly, I am just sick of all the hassle to work on myself to eventually attain full enlightenment or nirvana just to fragment myself again and start the cycle of misery all over again from the beginning ad infinitum.

I have certain needs which can not be met. This does not mean I enjoy sadness. I have to find a way to transcend these needs or suffer for life. I just look at my strengths and weaknesses and focus my efforts on what is likely to succeed. For me, attaining full enlightenment is a far better use of my time as it is more likely to succeed than seduction and all of that other stuff. I mean, come on, I look as seductive as a bloody fence post! No offense to fence posts. So the best course of action is just to consciously watch the feelings of lack, etc until the ego finally gives in?

@Leo Gura I didn't know that's possible. Full enlightenment i guess.

The relief from practices is temporary at best. Full enlightenment or the end of suffering isn't permanent either, nothing is. I want experience to end forever, more than a drowning man wants air, more than a son wants to see his father one last time after he sped along on his motorbike into a tractor emerging from a field and became one with its engine block and more than a man blinded wants his sight back. I am infinitely powerful so there's a way. I want to destroy myself.

@Leo Gura My point is being on the “devils” side keeps you from “seeing god” or realising it. It is not a value judgement to say cravings keep your from full enlightenment. It’s like saying u have engine issues, fixing it will help your car run faster. “But the engine issues are a part of the car” you could say, but that’s besides the point.

@Leo Gura Not fully. Yes. It is fairly clear. On the cross Jesus says “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? “ Then he says “I thirst.” Clear indicators of an individual will, resistance, and so forth. Then he says “It is finished.” “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” His will, his cravings, his thirst and resistance gone. After his “death” he is reborn in heaven. Before he was aware he was “god”. The so. Or god. Yet it was not total. Craving existed. Thirst did as well. Defilements and so on. With their eradication he reached full enlightenment. Keep in mind the crucifixion is likely a symbolic event.

@Leo Gura That event was symbolic though I believe, Christ’s death and resurrection after his abandonment are his full enlightenment after his deepest dark night of the soul, but that’s besides the point. Lets leave it there : )

Never said you did. The ridding of defilements goes hand in hand with full enlightenment, however, for each defilement, each piece of subconscious baggage and energetic blockage distorts and does not allow for full clarity. This has little to do with moral perfection and behaviour. It is about ridding one’s self of delusions that persist beyond awakening. Delusions that limit one’s reference point. That is how depth is gained. Therein lies the difference between a Buddha and someone on this forum taking about how they don’t exist in a manic state.

@Arhattobe I'm 2,5 years in no sense of agency, no localized consciousness awakening and I still do experience aversion People I've mentioned are awake Mystical traditions may even equate full enlightenment with the ability to fly, but there are simply no real-world examples of this. If someone is claiming to fully eradicated aversion, can we take him to the lab and find out? I'm not trying to be rude, in fact, I wish that it would be possible.

@Enlightenment There are also people that meditate for decades but don’t awaken. Don’t understand your point. “Eradication of defilements is not possible I’ve never met any”... A lot of mystical traditions equate the eradication of defilements with full enlightenment. Theravada Buddhism being the most sober, and if you have been awake for a number of years and you pay close attention to the energetic process within you this becomes very clear.

Full enlightenment rids you of all defilements and the energetic and physical issues that are a consequence of their existence. Simple stream entry does is what your describing and tbh it shouldn’t be thought of as enlightenment. Just awakening. The path after is long and hard.

@Leo Gura what do you think about Bodhisattvas, monks/saints who (claim to) have made a vow to not attain full Enlightenment until they help every human being that they can? I'm (open-mindedly) skeptical about such claims, because I'm not sure whether a modern day Bodhisattva would want to be reborn as a monk; wouldn't they rather be someone like Sadhguru or Peter Ralston, so that they could serve others without limiting themselves to a religion or a medium of teaching.

@Shin they need to reach turquoise to get full enlightenment (the one that Leo talks about even after getting enlightened). Until then they are just good boys.

Holy shit, that was the best answer i could ask for. Seriously, hit the nail right in the head. I came here to share an insight i had right now and you came with the perfect response, this is exactly what's going on. The insight is this one, if someone could share with me your point of view, that would be awesome: I was watching this video: Matt explained perfectly that my conception of enlightenment was false, i was having the impression that if i got enlightened, i was going to lose my sense of self and lost all will to live life, everything would be so flat and i was going to do crazy shit like walking around naked or something because that's kind of the trajectory that i have been walking for a long time and things seems to be worse and i keep getting stuck in life. I was trying to not have an ego so i didn't commit to anything because that, for me, would mean that my ego was strong and more difficult to peel away. It is a limiting belief lol My version of partial enlightenment includes gurus who fucks their followers because they still have an ego and delude themselves. My version of full enlightenment is ramana maharshi and neem karoli baba, two fully realized being that walk around with minimal clothes fully in the present not even caring for their bodies, if there were no followers they would sit and meditate into bliss until their bodies drop death like changing shirts.

@Peter124 I haven't reached full enlightenment but as the awakening goes deeper and deeper the voice, ego thinking, comes up less and less. You won't lose the ability to use your mind as a tool.

So "I" got bored and decided to meditate lying down on "my" bed, And something peculiar happened during the session. At about the end, near the time "I" opened "my" eyes again, The ego voice (or just "my" thaughts admitted that it is a lie. It said something to the effect of (and "I'm" paraphrasing.) "I am a lie. My life, my birth, my death is a lie. My wants, my desires, my fears and my anxieties is a lie." And it felt like a bit of a burden was unloaded, lifted from me. It felt good and I felt lighter and better. Happier and was laughing afterwards. Afterwards, I was realizing things like what Enlightenment really means. Not understanding the bullet points of what enlightenment says. Or being cognitively aware of it and living according to it like some philosophy. But actually becoming it. BECOMING enlightened means, becoming enlightenment itself. And realizing your truth as truth. Your true self as truth. As enlightenment itself. The truth that Leo, the Buddha Jesus and many more taught is that the ego and all the thaught stories and narratives beliefs and ideas are delusion. All of it. Which included all fears, anxieties, neurosis, desires and all man-made concepts. Which means that body or mind (in the conventional use of the term) or psychology or personality you believe to be you, that thing which is yours, your life, seperate from other life forms, people and material things. Ego is a delusion. And that what everything is, is just one infinate hallucination or dream as Leo described it. This hallucinating agent is what is called, concuousness or pure, empty awareness. Becoming itself as form. Existing and being as form. But as a hallucination. Which means there is only me. And you the reader are me. "My" question is, after an enlightenment experience, is it usual for the ego voice, the linguistic thaught voice to be in your head? Basically, for ego thinking continue? As it's still continuing for "me" And does that mean that this mini enlightenment experience of the ego admiring itself to be a lie and realizing, becoming enlightenment itself and as the true self as enlightenment itself only small parts of a much larger enlightenment journey? At full enlightenment does the ego voice disappear forever? Or does it remain? And how does contemplation/thinking happen without the voice? Does thinking happen at all? Is there still contemplation in the usual way or does the nature of the way contemplation happens change?

Rupert and Eckhart both communicate at a more broad, simple level to not only attract an audience, but to be understood. It isn't their purpose to dive too deep into the metaphysics and scare people off. However, that doesn't mean they aren't fully God realized. To me, it just means full embodiment of enlightenment, which they have undoubtedly achieved. What you are talking about is something else. Leo's whole channel is the pursuit to speak about nonduality using language (dualistic) as accurately as possible. He does this so well that if you're not already God realized (full enlightenment) it will scare you. It gives you as close a taste as you can to Nondual consciousness, without having to do any work. That's why it's so invaluable, but also why Leo cannot have a big audience (he did in the early days, but not at this level). Actualized is for a rare breed of people willing to turn their old lives upside down. That doesn't mean Leo "understands" it better than Rupert or Eckhart, because it goes beyond language.

Where you at is not full enlightenment sorry.

It seems like every time I need just the right video from Actualized.org it always comes up at the right time... This was a very relevant episode for me. I'm right at the End Phase and also in Limbo. This is what I'll be addressing in this journal log along with the lessons I've learned. The End Phase: Right now I'm wrapping up the phase of living at home. I'm about to venture off into a hardcore door-door sales program @Robby hooked me up with from mid-May till August 30th/mid-September in Arlington, New Jersey. Joaquin is about to graduate from high school at TL and will be moving down to Santa Barbara to attend the city college there at the end of Summer. Abuelo seems to be moving towards the final days of his life since I'm hearing how he's starting to not be able to eat or drink anymore and has pretty much lost his battle to dementia. I'm starting to get ready to make amends to let go of running as a pursuit. I'm starting to cut ties with mom and I'm about to leave the protection of dad. I was even told by dad that he's planning to give Ellie away to maybe Ellen & Jerry. Although someone on the outside can easily point out the positive of how this is perfect timing for me to start my next chapter, I would be neglecting my own experience if I said it feel this way even in the slightest in my own experience (which of course is rationalized by those outside as "totally normal"). It's easy to say that and also address in language all the obstacles I'm going to face and blah blah blah. Though on paper, yes, they are most certainly correct in their linguistic analysis of my situation. However, that doesn't mean shit. From the ever evolving collapse of my family since May 22nd, 2006, to my ever increasing decay in emotional, psychological, overall egoic stability, to dropping out of college the 3 semesters I went to participate, to having to get an incomplete Junior year of high school because I was such an emotional train wreck and went to counselor saying how I thought I was going to kill myself, to quitting every single running training cycle since high school, DNF-ing the majority of races I went into after high school and the ones I did race I pretty much bombed 95% of them, to quitting dozens of workouts, to feeling more and more inferior to other peers killing it in one domain or another over the years, to never having really had sex with a girl I found truly attractive, to crashing multiple cars wasting tens of thousands of dollars of my parents' money... do I really need to go on? I feel absolutely emotionally drained. Crying has become almost a daily thing because I have so much anxiety that I'm like a pot boiling and eventually blows out steam because it can't take the pressure being held inside. I've lost so much self-esteem, personal integrity, and the willpower to sustain even the most minor endeavors like meditating for 15 minutes. With the closing of this "End Phase" I feel a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear. I also am desperately holding onto what fate I still have within me. As much as it doesn't feel like it when I'm going through one of my daily emotional bad patches, reminding myself after I let what I have out of my system that I can get through this, that I do have more, that there is light at the end of this tunnel, that this is (in a sense) normal and other people too have made it through this and worse does help because that helps me emotionally regather myself and "put back on" the right perspective of how I can use this summer to move out fully be in the "Limbo Phase" where I can spend deliberate time healing, soul-searching, really regather myself, change my environment by moving to Denver/Boulder, camp, be in the mountains, etc. As drained as I am, I know I have to close this chapter with all I got and finish it. Right now I'm running down the last bend about to make it onto the final home-straight where I have to give everything I have this summer. I'm usually pretty good when I gather my inner strength and pulling myself back up and letting everything I have out in the final 100-200m of a race and claim every scalp I have in front of me with authority. I think I can do that here this Summer. I have it in me. The Limbo Phase: I've been trying so hard racking my mind on the Life Purpose Course. I feel like I've exhausted the amount of mental and emotional effort I can possibly put into that course since purchasing it back in June 2017. Though I have 8 Solid Top Values & My Top 5 Strengths locked in and starting to really be able to intuit what my real Zone of Genius is, I really have to pull the plug and give it a rest and come to terms with the fact that I just don't know. Though I had great insights and intuitions from my 1st ever psychedelic trip on LSD back on March 29th this year, I really need to put my focus into just closing up the last bit of the the End Phase before I can really go into a more soul searching process. If all turns out well this Summer I would like to spend as much time investing in my own soul-searching process, finally heal and regather and integrate my self, and explore new avenues of Bliss. I feel so destroyed internally that, even if I really found my next path in life I wouldn't be able to follow it because inside I feel like I'm a tube of toothpaste that's been so mauled and crumpled up for that last bit of toothpaste that I won't have enough for the net endeavor. The amount of internal willpower I have left is virtually empty and I need to recognize, honor, and respect that. This is why healing is going to be important and honor my inner muse. I completely disagree with people who telling me otherwise after this 4 month sales program is up that I should put in the hard work to improve socializing, my dating game, make more money, how I need to press even harder on the gas, etc. I'm willing to listen to feedback but I'm also willing listen to when I know what's right for me and when to tell people to stop giving me advice. I really need to hit the reset button once I wrap the End Phase up. I know what my heart needs while still needing to address practical & logistical matters. I believe this phase is going to consist of time backpacking, camping, traveling to different countries alone, going to some workshops & seminars, meditation & enlightenment retreats, meeting sages/saints/mystics face-face, reading, actually exploring new paths of interest (whatever it may be) and doing so full-heartedly, therapy, volunteering, a lot of journaling, going to new events, and contemplating. This episode really helped me reconcile the perfectly normal reality of this very phase and that this a phase worth honoring and really working through at whatever pace I need to take it at. Also because it helped really give myself the permission to acknowledge and be okay with accepting that the last cycle I'm now wrapping up was a failure with tons of valuable lessons that and that, all because it totally blew up in my face like a lab experiment gone totally wrong doesn't mean I can't be okay with it, make amends with it, and move on from it. I'm very eager to wrap the End Phase and finally get into the Limbo Phase. Lessons Learned: Following one's Bliss is so important. It took me up until this episode that that was actually how I even got into running in the first place! Look where that took me! I seriously need to heal Soul-searching cannot just be a mental process. I actually need to go out and explore. Travel to new cities, states, countries, forests, etc. I am extremely impressionable. This is a huge habit I'm going to need truly to shed in order to unearth a new authentic path and chapter in my life. Since I was less than 2 years old I've had this habit. From Michael Jordan, Steve Prefontaine, all the runners I've ever looked up to in some way, Sadhguru, Leo, other sages, etc. I always base my visions based on the lives of other people and unconsciously try to mimic them as much as possible. This comes from the deep seeded vow I made since I was probably even a toddler of like 3 or 4 years old that I really feel like I need to be different, special, and stand out amongst other and also the belief that I'm not good enough so I compare myself to others and cling onto them because I don't have enough self-esteem to really carve my path independent of anyone I may admire and look up to. Really being okay with just doing me and no one else. It's my path and my path alone and that that's just fine and how I'm going to be better off owning and living that. I quit and give up a lot. I need to focus on rebuilding integrity. I lie a lot and I'm going to really need to focus on making a daily commitment to fix that in order realign myself with my experience and integrity It's okay to really not know not just on a metaphysical level but when it comes to life issues to. Embrace not-knowing not just in direct contemplation but towards life situations in general and be will to let go into not-knowing and some real exploring. I have more in me I can turn this around I need to learn to really love myself I need to trust my drive for full enlightenment but I can't go fully into it when I'm this broken inside emotionally. Enlightenment is going anywhere. Again, I don't need to be Buddha, Jesus, Sadhguru, Leo, Ralston, etc. I need to be me and walk my path. I could probably jot more down but this is longer than I thought it would be and I'm a bit tired of writing... I think that's good for now. Signing off for now.

@Esoteric you have to separate “full” enlightenment/god-consciousness (if there is such a thing) from having crazy paranormal psychic abilities. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t see why there couldn’t have yogis who’ve levitated and so forth in the past. However I wouldn’t equate that with full enlightenment by any stretch. Remember, even in the Yoga Sutras Patanjali even talks about how siddhis have nothing to do with liberation itself. They are accomplishment yes but not liberation. But I do of course certainly agree that not all enlightened people are equally “accomplished” as far as depth of understanding and constant consciousness of the truth and totally free nor equally energetically/psychic developed and mastered. As far as I’m concerned though, that requires decades of hardcore as fuck penance and training if you’re talking about psychic and development because then you gotta throw in the development of concentration so powerful you gotta move a fucking mountain and all the purification that would take to get their on your body and of course your brain and being able to train that every day at the exclusion of other things like life purpose and so forth. You also gotta see that everything YOU create in everyday life is you creating. I remember I realized on my last acid trip how deep creation/creativity is. It’s fucking bone shaking because you look at the world and everything you do in ever second of every moment and you realize that you’re literally a vehicle of God creating and simulataneously witnessing the creation as it happen. I intuit I only got a taste of it and I was blown away and realized “man... I gotta be a vehicle for God’s creativity”.