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@James123 I think I finally "figured out" what's the go with you hahaha. Maybe I didn't though, doesn't matter because I just got some huge insights anyway that's gonna help me a lot. I found this convo fruitful, thanks. In a nutshell, I don't actually see words. I don't actually see meaning. I don't actually see any of that stuff. Its impossible to deconstruct what words are using words, because whatever I come up with, it will be seen as another conceptualization, because that's what words are. If we were to conceptualize though, words ARE infinite intelligence or infinite love or nothingness or whatever ya call it. There's no meaning, no words none of that stuff in actuality. Saying so is of course absolutely delusional. Its literally not there. I don't really care how you describe it, because I don't see meaning. So all meaning is stripped off from every word all the time. All I see is intelligence and knowing. That's why if you tell me "the ego is real" I'll be like cool that's awesome. If you tell me "the ego is not real" ill be like cool that's awesome, because when you strip off the meaning of both of those sentences, they both = infinite intelligence. So I literally don't give a fuck about what you write. On a practical level though, if you are a seeker and I feel (with infinite intelligence) that telling you "the ego doesnt exist" is gonna help you, ill write that. If I sense that youre too stuck on "the ego doesnt exist" I'll mind fuck you and say something like "the ego does exist" not because I believe its true, but because there's no meaning and only infinite intelligence so the meaning doesnt matter what matters is helping you. That's what I was trying to describe above. BUT, there is an infinite intelligence/nothingness "knowing" of what "meaning", "words" are. That knowing is not a conceptualization. You cannot put it in a box and say here it is, because its infinite formlessness. And this is obvious, because you knew, you had intelligence to know that some people actually believe meaning is real or exists, when it definitely doesnt. Or one or nothingness, however you wanna describe it. How you're meant to use my posts, is to completely strip off all the meaning and just feel the intelligence that "I" "inject" into it. The meaning and concepts and all that crap doesnt matter. Because its literally not there. I'll contradict myself without worry because it literally doesnt matter. Its just fucking intelligence. In a sense, all thats happening is you are sharing love to you through these posts completely devoid of meaning. Thats all this thread is, you sharing love/intelligence to you. Even though you realize meaning literally doesn't exist and you're "awake" doesn't mean you can't deepen your awakening. Rupert Spira talks about deepening awakenings if you really need to ride off another teacher for confidence. I can share a video. Compassion deepens awakenings, you feel more love, get a deeper connection with source when you do compassionate things or connect with others. Or when you meditate. You aint a 100% saint after awakening, you can still deepen it. Leo's endless wonderland is just deepening awakening, thats it. Its just feeling more love and intelligence. Its well beyond realizing that meaning literally doesn't exist. Its well beyond concepts. Realizations at that stage are just explosions of intelligence, another aspect of deepening awakenings with compassion. Anyway, I contemplated your perspective and realized you actually thought I thought meaning literally existed, then once I realized that, all of your posts made total and utter sense. It was an epiphany. So I'm pretty sure I know where you're coming from now, even if it seems to you im totally deluded or retarded or whatever, you're literally me from my perspective so it doesn't matter an awful lot if thats the case, it just matters what epiphanies i got. You've just reminded me that people can actually believe meaning literally exists, which is helpful for my expression. So thanks for that, I don't think I need to ask ya any more questions.

At no self level there is no false or true. There is no such a thing as exist or not exist. It is exist and not exist from egoistical perspective. When non duality happens, all becomes 1, which is nothing. But this is not the case for ego, you can clearly see you define as exist and not exist at the same time. You are completely wrong. When there is an awakening, there is no egoic consciousness, all becomes 1. After that realization happens that was never a egoic consciousness. Therefore egoic consciousness and no self realization is not same. Because you are still looking from DUALITY PERSPECTIVE. Nothing has never happened. But for you it is true and happening. Therefore these explanations are given to you. For ‘me’, time has never began nor me. I am already what i am, but you duality goes on therefore explanation is happening. There is no false or true. Everything is NOTHING. You conceptualized awakening. There is true and false from dualitic perspective. From non dual there is no such a thing as true or false. All is NOTHINGNESS. Nothing has never began. Nothingness has no beginning therefore no end. These are not sentences, they are all nothing from non dual perspective and nothing for me. But you are me and thats why i am trying to help you. For you duality still goes on. Therefore these explanations are given to you. If you realized non duality, there is no need to explain to you anything. If you have realized nothingness, you would already realize these all words are identical. If you want detail answer of this sentences you can got post of leos wonderland. And read page 6-7 conversations between ‘me’ and ‘crazytobetoocrazy’. “I” did “my” best fo “you” brother. Awakening is not being selfish, it is been selfless. Otherwise “i” will never explain anything.

At the no self level: "deeper" = thought = False. "you" = thought = False. You have no evidence/realization that deeper was ever true. You're making that up. Pure imagination. You've never had a realization that deeper was a thing. You don't have any evidence that "you" got "deeper". 4 years ago was formlessness, now is formlessness. You never realized no-self. James never realized no self, James is not awake. James was as no-self realized 4 years ago as he is NOW. You also don't have any evidence that a "you" actually "dissolved". That's purely made up. You have no evidence that you ever had an ego. 4 years ago, no ego. That's what no self realization teaches you, that the ego was never there in the first place. Its not that the ego disappeared, its that it was never there, thats why the realization is so powerful. God/Nothingness realized that you and deeper were never there. But (and this is stuff James is totally misleading seekers about) Because you never realized no-self(because there's no you or deeper - ever), no-self was happening even at the beginning of the spiritual journey, you cannot make a distinction between what was experienced(not by a you, just by nothingness) after no-self realization, and before no-self realization. egoic consciousness vs post no-self realization is a false dichotomy. Both are just as true as each other(because no self realization is true, no self realization was literally happening 4 years ago, therefore egoic consciousness has to be just as true as no self realization. If you actually think that egoic consciousness was false and post no self realization is true, just contemplate where your evidence is, that is a wrong assumption. ego consciousness = no self realization consciousnes = Trueth). That's why some teachers say you are already enlightened(like alan watts). Yet people actually think they have an ego in egoic consciousness, and that's because its not actually there, that's because it seems to be there. Its an optical illusion. Its a dream. It both exists and doesn't exist So if egoic consciousness is just as true as no self realization, then what's actually false? Egoic consciousness is the only place where a "false" can actually occur. And if everything in egoic consciousness is True, then have you ever actually experienced a "false"? All those no self realization beings out there, go contemplate if "false" is actually a thing. If you have ever experienced a false before. Nothing is outside of consciousness, so what was actually false? The next realization (after no self realization) is the realization that false = true. There never actually was a false. Everything that's false was true. False vs true is redundant, its useless. Because everything is true, including false. EVERYTHING IS TRUE. egoic consciousness is true, ego is true, no ego is true, 3D world is true, no 3D world is true. Both the universe is nothing is True AND the universe is everything is true. There's no false here. Yeah its all a dream/illusion, the ego is a dream, the 3D world is a dream, but everything in the dream is true, you've never experienced an actual false. So how is it possible to have deeper realizations? What's not true? What's false? Its as simple as that. The universe is literally infinite. Which means deeper realizations are true. Caveats You can still be deluded, for sure, but delusion is true. Just because delusion is true doesn't mean you shouldn't point out delusion. Its important to point out delusion so that you can reduce suffering and be happier. If everything is true then why dont I see green elephants in the world? The universe is infinite, yet you are viewing the infinite from a finite mind. That finite mind has all the properties of the finite, and finite means some things have manifested while others haven't. Yet to someone who knows the infinite, its as clear as day that reincarnating into a world with green elephants is totally possible. "me", "nature", "you", "identical" are all thoughts on a no self realization level. from no self realization POV: "you" = thought. Its impossible for me to realize anything because from your POV I am LITERALLY your imagination. The stuff you conjure up about "me" is pure delusion. Pure projection. You talk about realizing nothingness, yet you act as if I actually have substance, I actually have a brain that can realize things. This is not proper teaching of no self realization. This is a subtle duality. Proper teaching of no self realization does not assume what others have realized or not, because all that stuff is delusion at the no self realization level. This is probs gonna be the last time ill try to point to something beyond no self realization, I dont think I could explain it any better then this. If this is useless/goes on deaf ears, then so will everything else.

@electroBeam hours ago, James123 said: These guys have been meditating for decades. Of course they are right. Dont trust your “self” to much. Go deeper till no”i” to experience anything left. You need to experience nothingness. As ı said, Go deeper till no”i” to experience anything left. Because, you become nothing with letting go and surrendering. Because whatever you have identify yourself is something that you hold on to. you just need to drop down everything with surrendering. There is no such a thing as everythingness. nothing is everything such as, formlessness can take any form. But there is no deeper than formlessness. Because Everything is nothing. Thats why me, nature and you are identical. Because our connection that makes us identical is, we are nothing. İt is very clear too realize that you have no idea what are you talking about. instead of trying to debate, learn and let go the person, which 'your' 'self'. Funny. When you become directly nothing there is no more deeper than that. Brother have a direct realization and talk. Dont come up to me with stuff that you have learned. Please. Peace! Definitely brother. But, nothing is everything such as, formlessness can take any form. But there is no deeper than formlessness. Because Everything is nothing. Thats why me, nature and you are identical. Because our connection that makes us identical is, we are nothing. Therefore infinite.

"these guys" = thought "have been meditating" = thought "for decades" = thought "they are right" = thought "dont trust your self to much" = thought "you need to" = thought "experience nothingness" = thought True nothingness has no teachers meditating for decades. True nothingness has no you experiencing nothingness. True nothingness has no trusting yourself. If you haven't gotten that yet, you haven't gone deep enough. And when you realize there are no teachers meditating, what the truth is doesn't depend on other teachers, it depends on direct experience, and direct experience includes way more then nothingness, it includes everythingness.

@James123 yes brother once you become pure Actuality by realizing directly the self is an illusion that is it. There is no mistaking it and your life will never be the same because it was seen through This dissolves the ego and God breaks through the chains of the dream. But then one as God , the formless, can still have realizations. Such as the nature of itself. It can become conscious of it's Nothingness or its Everythingness. For it is truly Infinite. It can become conscious fully of Itself which is identical to Bliss or falling in Love with Itself. So notice the thoughts of the ego are first dissolved but Infinite Mind is what dawns.

This is completely wrong. When you realize that there is no you that have experience anything. Such as even the word of experiencing is you. You are the experience and experiencer itself. You can not experience anything, you are everything because you are nothing. Thats final awakening. These guys have been meditating for decades. Of course they are right. Dont trust your “self” to much. Go deeper till no”i” to experience anything left. You need to experience nothingness. Peace!

It is difficult to embrace the reality that you really are infinite nothingness, but it is so. nothingess uniform, no accidents, flat, pure, timeless, perfect. which also means, without a doubt, that nothingness is

let go of feeling like you don't know anything, that you're not getting anywhere, that you're not gaining anything, that you're not getting "it". The universe IS NOT INFINITE LOVE the universe IS NOT INFINITE INTELLIGENCE the universe IS NOT NOTHINGNESS We are tricking you. We are gaming you. The truth is not those things. NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT LET GO LET GO LET GO

Nothing there. Hope one day you will wake up from nothingness .

"I got wet in this warm waterfall that originates from nowhere I surrendered to the pressure of this waterfall. I let go of myself and let the water move me wherever it likes I let it take me to the furthest of places, I closed my eyes Succumb, Surrender, Let go I let myself be, be one with it's flow. Than I let the river take me wherever I stopped worrying about hitting the rocks in the way, for there were none. I opened my eyes and looked at the the sky's magnificent stars Twinkling as the owls hooted and wolves howled in the forest around the river Even with this dance of sound, sight, feel and smell around me I found this stillness permeating through it all, peace. Nothingness dancing as something" I wrote another poem. I have a question. Is it ok to keep posting poems I write overtime here in this sub forum? Edit: I came up with another poem when walking around. Thought I should add it in here. "The owls hoot into the full moon, The wolves howl into the night sky. A certain silence lives in the vastness of this forest. I bask in it, I soak it in I let it seep into me, permeate me I sit, and be."

Agree with ya but: A stick has 2 ends, the end is just one side. Its hard to escape the finite, I've tried all my life, which happened to be forever. Well yeah, but we can go further then that. It was always over, and you were just pretending it wasn't, because finite = pretending. Your nothingness, not a something. The only way to be a something is to pretend. And how can you be infinite if you can't pretend to be every finite thing? We can go so far as to realize that meditation never caused nothing to happen, never caused ego death, you were just pretending it did, because the infinite includes pretending that meditation gets you to nothingness or killing your ego. You can go so far as to realize the entire path is just a play, a play of finiteness, and the only thing that truly "awakens" you is the end of the finite, not meditation. Meditation is part of the play. Be warned, if you go this far into realizing nothingness, it will be very uncomfortable though, you can't take credit for anything, and you can't fool yourself into thinking you're helping someone else. Because those "others" are just pretending, like you, and they are just pretending they don't know what's written here, they are pranking you, so hard that they actually believe they need help from you, when they don't. Because they are God obviously. And their ignorance is all pretend. And what makes an enlightened person different from an unenlightened person is the enlightened one is different, special because he doesn't play the game because he's enlightened... well I can't claim to be that, because I'm pretending to know that all of you are pretending. The enlightened ones are the biggest players of all. No self realization - pretend. Meditation gets you to nothingness - pretend. Once that realization is had, you're no longer enlightened (or unenlightened). The finite is just coming to an end, including your enlightenment. This is just my Experience, not saying its that same for you though. I totally appreciate that some will think I'm completely deluded, and I totally accept that, I don't have anything to defend. Never did, just pretended to. And so don't you, you really tricky fucken devil.

An insight from a chat today that might be useful regarding meditation and horseshit. There’s nothing wrong with a quick morning meditation, to let thought activity settle, get in touch with feeling, etc. Yet, calling this meditation is comparable to calling a wink, sex. Meditation is truly, really, the end. There’s not going to be anymore you and your roles, your gender, your preferences, your stuff to do, a ‘reality’, an ‘experience’, etc. That’s all done now, it’s all over. Hopefully you enjoyed it, because this is the actual end of everything. Whatever could be said to be left of you dissolves into the void of nothingness and that’s it, show’s over. Nothing happens “next”, no one ‘comes back’ with ‘benefits’ to ‘live a life’. All horseshit. ?

@Kalki Avatar how are you functioning at all? Awake or not? How is your body breathing and digesting and your heart beats when you are asleep and lost in nothingness or some crazy ass dream? It's pure magic. You never did anything in the first place. It's all functional perfectly fine without any you doing anything. Just get out of gods way ffs.

Nothing=something something=nothing Do you understand? I don't. Some moments, in meditation, I got it. Yes , obviously, I'm a shape, all that I am is shaping the nothing, a shape is the same to another shape, suffering is the same than joy, shape is the same than nothingness. But in the moment that you analyze it, you loose, there is not logical in that

@James123 And brother not to be one of those but what you are talking about is a mere belief for me cause i have not yet experienced that which you are talking about, I have tho experienced no self and god conciousness and infinite imagination. From my own meditation experiences and sober realizations and psychedelics and other stuff, I know the nothingness which is true nature. But it is all inclusive to other kind of "states" as well. Thats also why you and Leo are different. But you are claiming to be enlightened yet trying to disprove people using ur thoughts and mind so you are more of the Mind then you think you are. If you were totally nothing as you are saying u would not be here, and If you erase yourself and the show continues there is something in ur realization which is not the ultimate Truth. It is part of the whole Truth but there are facets of awakenings. Still we are using words and we cant escape it. This might be a belief on my part but in my own experience i can tell you that you are using your mind for experiencing this world. You cant escape the five senses either. If you could we wouldnt know the form of you even "existed" I can tell you that what you have is an experience thanks to conciousness itself. Nothingness=mind=creation. Somethingness=nothingness. No mind=mind No conciousness = conciousness. You see? Conciousness is capable of everythingness and nothingness. Thats in my own experience. For you all is nothing but it is still a thing which you have used your conciousness to reduce this down to nothing. Can you see how sneaky this is? You cant escape it. And we are using words here which is not the thing itself but im totally getting what you are saying brother i just think that you are misinterpeting what iam saying to. Much love to you brother and like I said it is good to have you on the forum and ive learned alot from you.

@electroBeam Agree with you.. Everybody got a different Truth but reality is infinite imagination. That is what GOD is. It is totally nothingness YET it is all forms as well. Reality is nothing but the mind of GOD. It is a mental universe.

Of course I/we do, otherwise I/we wouldn't have projected them in the first place. I/we do, because I'm infinity. I want to know everything. Isn't that obvious? Creation is infinite. Its coming from ME, my WILL. I'm not a caterpillar expert in this life, but its obvious I will be at some point. I will be everything possible, I already am that, but on a relative level, I will be it in the future. On a relative level. Only on a relative level. On an absolute level, they do know knowledge, and that knowledge comes from ME. And I pretend to project it, because I'm pretending to be an enlightened human. knowledge is coming from others on a dualistic level. I project knowledge on a non dual/enlightened human level. others have knowledge, and that knowledge comes from me, on a God level. Because I an neither the character I'm pretending to be, nor the teacher with the knowledge, but rather the 3rd person observer of both. only on an enlightened human level. The enlightened human cannot do any of these things, because the enlightened human embodies Nothingness. Yet these things are possible and true on an unenlightened human level. And both are true on a god level, from the 3rd person observer, so 3rd person, that calling it 3rd person is too grounded and distorts the meaning of what is trying to be conveyed. The unenlightened human's experience is just as true as the enlightened person's experience, yet both disagree entirely. As God you can create this play to suit both perspectives. You can make a play about the 3D world and science being true, or you can make it about a being who is aware that the 3D world is within the present moment, or not even that, just within him/herself. As god, both perspectives are true. All perspectives are true. Everyone has a different truth.

Nope, that's not me, I want to know more and more forever. Leo talks about how each person's brain chemistry is wired differently and some people can realize certain facets, while others can't. As if we all have different truths. Like how ralston can't understand love while rumi can. For tony parson, nothingness might actually be the ultimate truth, while for ramaji, infinite love might be the ultimate truth. In other words we all have different truths. This argument makes a lot of sense when you see debates like these. For some people I totally resonate with what they are saying, for others I feel I'm on a completely different wavelength. I think its because each person really does have a different truth. Such a perspective is helpful because it reduces debating when you sort of realize that there's no point debating them when their truth is literally different to yours. The whole point of a debate comes from the assumption that everyone shares the same truth, if that goes out the window, then debating becomes useless. I think there's a clear brain chemistry difference between the tony parson types and leo's types. IMO the tony parson types are just suck at LOC 600, while Leo's endless wonderland is just going beyond LOC 1000 (that's literally my experience). Yet maybe I'm wrong, maybe for the tony parson types, LOC 600 actually is LOC 1000, and they just aren't curious enough or are incapable of going beyond LOC 1000 because in their experience its impossible. The tony parson types might be able to experience a very deep level of emptiness that Leo isn't capable of, and that might be literally their truth, while for leo it isn't. And it also explains why people want different stuff. Some people actually want to seek forever (like me) while others want to stop seeking. And even this entire perspective, takes a certain brain chemistry to accept LOL. Some will say this is all just thoughts and the brain is imaginary, so this is all nonsense. It takes a certain brain chemistry to be ok with the paradox that while the brain is imaginary and just thoughts, it affects truth or consciousness. This is just something that's really clicked with me recently, people really are sincere about their different truths, its not because one is meditating or doing the work more then the other, I think we are all living in a different reality.

@Leo Gura Hi Leo! I am very interested to know what you think of 5 meo dmt when it comes to experiencing nothingness. Have you changed your mind/believes since 5 years ago? I mean its seems like you are a big fan of psychedelics now, especially 5 MeO DMT. I am asking because I found this comment that belongs to you on a video you posted 5 years ago. I was quite shocked and thoughtful by seeing this comment. What do you have to say about it. Do you still stand by this or have you changed your mind? Personally i am a big fan of psychedelics and they have helped me so much in expanding my mind/consciousness. I dont see why psychedelics wont help much. I mean one high dose of 5 MeO will send you there!

Nothing. As a concession...knowing nothing, not knowing, knowing there is nothing to know, knowing nothing is known. A remnant of a questionable memory of sorts, that there was a you and something that happened, which dissipates into nothingness like a forgotten dream. Nothing. Direct experience, of no experience, such as a self, reality, knowledge, etc, is as close as a pointer gets, arguably, apparently.

@nistake Yeah, the Awareness of the Oneness via the realization of Nothingness.... minds often struggle as they try to bring it down to make sense to its own worldview. He did a g'job.

That's all fine and dandy, whats interesting personally to me though is why you place more importance on groundlessness then on groundedness. I don't disagree with you, that's all obviously happening. Its typical no self realization or mu as the zens call it, yet what's interesting to me is why you stop there and you don't go and discover insights in the constructs and creations itself. From my POV, I don't see that groundlessness as being superior to the constructs. I don't see nothingness or radical emptiness as being superior to everythingness or constructs. Both the constructs and emptiness are one thing. They aren't a duality. The map isn't the territory, but the map is also the territory at the same time. Emptiness is just 1 flavor. Yeah everything is ultimately groundless. Infact there's no point talking about it because you can't talk about it. Its just obviously severely empty. But this is just 1 side of the coin, there's also everythingness or groundedness that you're just completely palming off because you're too fixated on groundlessness. Like 0 = infinity. 0 is not superior to infinity. There's shit loads of insights in infinity, what you seem to be doing is saying 0 is all there is, infinity is delusion, and if you disagree with me then you're in Leo's wonderland.

Awareness knows. In awareness. It is pure nothing and this nothing is a dream. Thats what Awareness does, it dreams. But "you" are beyond it. The Absolute nothingness which is infinite potential. We are that. And I would say that Leo's teaching may bring people to " wonderland" But conciousness has the capacity for infinite imagination and creation. Yet you are beyond creation.

Thats why meditation and silence mind is the key brother. After Infinite nothingness will be just a singularity, which is before the big bang. Just nothing , pure and empty? but is you, love it?