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Its a technique called mahamudra .it gives me enough bliss and remove all my suffering and quitens monkey mind significantly

@asifarahim I was just asking what you were doing as your single technique that generated bliss. I might look into official kriya yoga in the future but right now i'm doing my own thing

Don't be so hard on the poor guy, it's his ignorance that created his bliss. Better to ask him for open-mindedness!

Hi everyone. I been having some experiences lately that I hope some of you could help me shed some light on to what’s going on. - So this got a lot longer than I anticipated. But that’s how it goes I guess. So If you have the patience to read throughout it. Thank you. Theres is a long backstory like always :). But to cut it short, it has involved a classic massive existential crises from losing “everything” and a complete chattering of my identity. Leading both to immense beauty and despair. Witch at fist led me back into an old lover; Philosophy, to try and find answers, witch I felt in the end let me to the limits of philosophy/logic. A deep dive into psychoanalysis and philosophy kind of stranded, exemplified for me by this notion by Hegel: “The thought of contradiction is the essential moment of the concept” and Lacan´s “I think where I am not, therefore I am where I do not think.”. At this point I started feeling kind of like a recovering "intellectual". Suddenly it made sense to me when OSHO say: “Baybe!.. My whole job is to confuse you”. But to cut to the chase, I then did the online inner engineering course by Sadhguru some time ago (Not the initiation into shambhavi mahamudra). And I been practicing the Isha Kriya + 7xA 7xU 7xM + 21xAUM meditation every morning and then just the Kriya again in the evening. I didn’t really have any expectations about it to be honest. Just taking it like an experiment to see if anything would happen. I did it in kind of the same spirit as brushing my teeth I guess. From what I have read its supposed to be a very sudle and gentle process. And I have also seen it referred to as a watered-down version of Kriya yoga here on the forum. And I have heard Sadhguru say that its a safe practise where nothing crazy will happen to you. So 21 days into the 48 day madela, I had the fist experience, where for just a few seconds, a taste of bliss rolled trough me. It was fine, pleasant and quite sudle. Then for the next days things stated moving around between my dick and my anus during the two practices. It feels like tingeling + something moving around. Like a fetus moving around in an egg, the area being the egg. Around the same time, not during meditation, I had an experience where everything suddenly went silent. My existential crisis and loss of identity has led me into a purpose search spiral, (that I have noticed im not the only one getting caught in this confusion). For a long long time I had the feeling that this is the thing im gonna do/be, but then it collapsed. Like this is not it, again ´this is it-this is not it´,´this is it - this is not it´on and on to the point where it was driving me so crazy that I started thinking if no matter what I come up with is not “IT” any longer, then maybe really all of it is it.. Ore it and neither it at the same time, so to say. Like the purpose is not having to ask the question in the first place, but again it has to go full circle, back to where it started. Anyways, what triggered this experience of silence/emptiness was, -in my trying to understand- listening to different talks on non-doership. And in one talk, one woman from the audience told a story of a mosquito landing on her shoulder and her hand just smacking it by itself. Somehow that simple story just made everything go completely silent. For the first few days I feel like having no thoughts. Thoughts suddenly felt just like a toolbox I could pull out if I wanted to ore just leave it in the closet otherwise. My irritation towards others opinions completely disappeared. that witch would previously get me annoyed didn't bother me the slightest anymore. I noticed some reactions happening automatically in the body like it was just a learned pattern that was just happening by itself. But It was just the body doing its thing. And at the same time I also started being unsure of my exact location. Having trying to located where I am before I have had the experience of being kind of more in my visual filed the behind my eyes. But now it has gotten intensified. I started doubting if I was going mad. I had a family weekend that I was getting uncertain if I could handle. Like if I could act sane if that makes sense.. But in the end it went fine. I had just before that cut down on the practise and just stuck to the kriya not to ruin the madela. Morning and evening and skipping the AUM. But now to the reason for my post. This morning doing the kriya ( I started adding the AUM back again yesterday as I now felt integrated with the experiences ). But after the “Im not the body, Im not even the mind” During the 7xAaaaa it got intense. A bit of tingeling like before between the A & D and then suddenly my body just started lifting up from my seat and down into the seat in a rhythm of woooom… woooom …woooom bouncing up and down, up and down. I have never had any experience like this. I know there was no physical movement happening. But it was as real as real. I stuck trough the kriya, kind of hoping I would not blow up, and I did not. But it was a wild experience. I have a job for the fist time In a long time in a week that I have to be functional at and my feeling is I can’t go further right now into the experience. Im already balancing my sanity at this point I feel. As I have understod it these exercises is ment to ground you in your root/muladhara. But my experience is that they make me take off. And it feels like a bigger engine in warming up to shoot me somewhere I have no idea where is. So today after this experience my feeling is that I should take my foot of the pedal. Even thou I haven’t even completed the 48 day madela of something that is just supposed to ground me!. I do have some on of experience with labelling meditation and do-nothing. So im aware of the the state where, even just a small gap between mind/body and awareness, the process is on for me. But this thing seams to go waaaay beyond that. This process is on a whole other level from my experience so far. There are some energies at play that I have no idea of yet. And I have a lot of respect for that I guess. Ill admit that I am on the cautious side with these things. I like to keep up with the process to some extend I guess. Im not especially kind to my body to be honest. I do eat very healthy naturally, but other than that not much in that direction. I do have a feeling that at this point maybe I have to shift somehow into taking more care of my body before continuing the process. Am I being over sensitive about the whole thing? I do have a feeling that things are gonna go really fast if I continue. In some sense I feel like its already on, and its just a question on how fast in some way. To context a bit more, I can add that im also sensitive to pshycadellics. I have taken 1/4 of what others have taken, with them feeling nothing at all, and I get blow away. But for alcohol its the opposite. I can drink as much as i can stand and it never changes my personality at all. It never has as long as I can remember, not even the slightest. In contrary to what I notice in others. My experiential field changes but I dont if that makes sense. Also I should maybe say that for the last year I have been taking the opportunity of Corona to just spending time alone. So I have been alone close to 99% of the time for more than a year. To the point of hearing my own voice is a funny experience. My post I basically just about the bouncing wooom wooom wooom experience. The rest is just more ore less relevant context that I could come up with. I haven’t been able to find any similar experiences described. The tingle and the moving around down there, I have seen described as Kundalini. But the bouncing? I have heard yoga masters say that it is extremely rare to get an accidental kundalini awakening. Though YouTube is full of people saying exactly that’s what happened to them. Am I messing with kundalini unintentionally here? I do not feel comfortable fooling around with that energy without anyone to guide me to be honest. But maybe it has nothing to do with that and im just being a spiritual baby ? ? And its just a .. well I dont know what is is.

God is infinity, which means infinite suffering and bliss all at once. Infinity implies all state possible, and infinite situations and problems to solve/overcome. That implies that no matter how much we solve "problems" and reduce suffering in the world, there will always be more coming. That sounds nihilist and "bad", but actually, it would be sucks if it wasn't the case. Think about it for a full minute (not asking much of you ), if you have peace in the world, with zero situations to solve, that's the same as imagining a world with no experiences, cause as soon as an other is created, there will be conflict in one form or another. That applies to the individual as much as the collective, with no situations to deal with, with nothing to strive for, there is no point in having a temporal life's experience, time would be useless. There will always be suffering as well as new challenges to tackle, so when Leo says Spiritual teachers are cosplaying, that's quite true, they don't actually believe peace and harmony can be reached (or it's wishful thinking), because it won't. I'm not saying that we can't go through stage green and live in harmony as a human race, I'm saying that even if that is done, new challenges will arise out of that, It will never stop. Seeking the end of suffering, in the end, is kind of pointless and aimless, cause not only it is not possible, but it's not truly what you want. Think again for another minute, if we truly wanted a life without struggles, why the fuck would we incarnate ourselves as human beings in the first place ? That's what we wanted, or at least, that's what's happening and can't be avoided. So what can we take out of that ? We have to live life not to stop suffering, but to enjoy everything, even the struggles and the hardships, cause that's literally the only thing we can and will ever do. We will never reach a state of eternal peace for long, cause even if we do, we'll come back one way or another as a human with "problems" (or other experiences) to start the cycle of suffering and bliss all over again. We're not here to escape pain and suffering, we're here to experience it, to be able to contrast it with bliss and ecstasy, and then transcend them altogether, and forgot all about it. Life is just an orgie of experiences that never stop in peace or suffering, but loves to mix both, because every one of those experiences are unique and will never happen again, which is why they are so beautiful and amazing. Even the "worst" moment of your life Was a masterpiece.

People do physically die from lack of relationship. Think of a baby who isnt given love, or an older person who lost their partner. No, the opinion is that because we are social beings, we need relationships to survive. Survival isn't just about life and death. Even someone who lives alone and never sees anyone ever, at one point they survived because of relationships. Also, you don't know that they experience "absolute bliss" all the time. They had to probably go through a lot of loneliness and still feel that way at times. You've taken extreme examples of humans that CAN survive without other humans and using that as a reason why relationships are not a must. Also, I'm not just talking about romantic or even close friendships...there are many different types and any kind of social interaction with another human is considered a relationship of some sort.

So your opinion is that because we live in a relative world, interpersonal relationships are a must? That would also mean that without them you would physically die or not be satisfied throughout your life. Why are there so many examples of the opposite in this case? And why are there examples of enlightened masters who live in a cave and experience absolute bliss? Do you feel empty and lonely without people around you? Again, my desire is not that I want to live in a cave or whatever alone till I die. It is about the answer of the question.

@Zeroguy Well that doesn't really answer anything tbh. It doesn't tell me how to change the dream, or how to imagine specific things. Like how do I imagine my crown chakra opened and bliss? Saying I imagine the crown chakra and I am imagining bliss doesn't really do anything

I've had thoughts similar to Sunny. Logically it follows. If this is just a dream and the truth is that reality is all good and we simply creating reality for our own experience then why not just die and create a new dream rather than wait 50 years etc because you will die eventually. Most people will live their entire lives without experiencing love, deep joy bliss etc, but when they die they will get all that and more. From their perspective what is the point of living and not just killing themselves? But at the same time, the guy left his 2 kids to grow up without a father. And if you read his posts there's a sense that he is parroting some spiritual tropes without an understanding of how they fit into reality at large.

@LastThursday thank you for the story, though I feel that you have been trying to get out of that well for a very long time now. And I have to ask myself if you actually know and know how to get enlightened. Though the how to is not easy to explain, once you have entered into it and that way of living once, twice or thrice, you have faith you can again. Actually I have removed so much of any identity that it is difficult not to become "enlightened". It's interesting because a year ago I started to understand within me which way I would have to live to be enlightened, the day sadhguru said enlightenment is the eisiest thing, instant realisation. Though at that time without being aware of it I had a lot of ego/emotions etc that had to be cleansed from my system, so for a moment I thought enlightenment way that endless bliss that I could feel for multiple hours, it was intense meditation and at that tome it was complete freedom aka short period of enlightenment. Then afterwards I understood living outside the well was no longer filled with bliss because that was just piled up emotions/desires that had to go through for me to get to the next phase. Staying in the system of society I gradually lost more and more of my identity and everything became clearer and clearer though I always knew since 12 months ago how to become enlightened. It's just something you have to do and there is no method for it. That's why I called what you are doing playing mind games. Because It actually in a sense won't get you closer to the way of an enlightened. Either you live completely freely or you play mind games with yourself, there is no inbetween. That's why I also wrote that I am doing the same. When the mind games start to get less and less what will be left will be more and more of the truth. When you are only left with the truth of your desires and wants and identity and the rest of it then you will naturally come to the place where I am right now. In almost constant touch with a new way of living, then it is easy, just to fly out of the well you thought you were stuck in, because actually you just didn't know how to fly, you were scared to fly, but now you know that all I have to do is jump with all my might and I'll be flying, so why stop when you have started, then continue to fly forever untill the day you wish for peace and thereby return to the earth.

@Salvijus Yeah I understand you but it still has to come full circle into the realization that life is as well as much truth as anything else since there is no distinction made in actuality only mind might do it. But I somehow i do feel that if full 100% cessation forever would be possible then there would not be this here. If GOD could cease itself it would strangeloop into that it is full aware again if you get me ? Sounds a bit like theravadin(spelling?) Buddhism that stresses more or less "spiritual suicide " but it was not really the Buddhas teachings, anatta for example was more a statement meant : This is not my soul that is not my soul etc. Not that Self is unreal. The yellow robes theravadins teaches " this is all there ism" IE the psycho physical is all that there is. It comes as no suprise that thousands of years old teachings gets corrupted. Buddha was asked what to call his path or teaching and he said it would be called : Brahma jama or something like that, which means path to Brahman or Path to the Absolute. He taught liberation but not really spiritual suicide. He was more in line with Advaita Vedanta then not. But who cares right ?‍♂️ And on the psychedelics part even science says it shutdowns the default mode network more or less, IE ego process. But for that to happend you need a pretty high dose usually but some people can get it on 150 mcg lsd but not in my case. Ego death can be a tough nut to stomach when it happens as well but afterwards it is bliss more or less. It shows alot i feel for how the death process will unfold or atleast the beginning part of it. So it is more to learn to stomach to die. But 10 trips etc is not enough either to get a grasp on it. But psychedelics is not the end all be all either, contemplation/meditation/self inquiry is necessary imo. Cheers mate ?

Dealing with My Spiritual Ego: The Dangers of the Spiritual Ego and Why People Should Be Careful Some. of. yall. bout. to. be. real. mad. at. me. but. it. must. be. said. While I do get a lot of value out of spirituality and Actualized.org, there are things that I'm very hesitant and even skeptical about. This might look like me turning on this community or not aligning with the main values of this place but I honestly don't care. The two main things that I'm really hesitant about involve the dating advice here, especially for guys who can't get laid, and the enlightenment related things there. I'm not going to talk about the first one because I already wrote about that but I am going to focus on the second one. I suppose that I'm far from having any concerns about enlightenment and transcendence. I think I'm at a place where integration and building a solid foundation to build my life on in order to ground me is much more important. I think getting on the path to enlightenment prematurely can be incredibly dangerous without proper integration. Maybe I'll get to a point where I'll care more about existential and absolute truths years down the road or maybe I won't I don't know. But I know that if I ever get on that path, I want to be able to have some type of framework and some solid foundation because diving in head first without preparation is irresponsible for me and the people around me. There are some methods of getting there that I don't particularly agree with (if you do agree with it idc, no judgement I don't know what's best for everyone) and those include things like psychedelics, fasting, and isolating yourself from your loved ones and abandoning your hobbies and interests because all of your attention should be towards enlightenment. I feel that those things are rather extreme and are things that are definitely not for the vast majority of people. Also, I'm hesitant with drugs in general. I don't care if other people uses them granted they are doing so safely, responsibly, and legally but it's not for me especially when that advice is coming from a talking head on the internet. Upon recent events, this video by Adeptus Psychonautica came out. Some people are triggered because they think it makes actualized.org look bad but I think it's incredibly beneficial for people from the outside critiquing actualized.org because being super insular usually doesn't end well for a variety of reasons whether it be because of self bias all the way to cult like tendencies. I guess I'm not particularly attached to actualized.org and spirituality in general so when people critique these things, I don't feel particularly triggered because to me it's simply a source. I think it can be easy for people to get attached to some sources and some teachers because of the benefits that one gets from their content because it does have to do with those people's survival emotionally and psychologically. Especially if you get help in a vulnerable place and even if you get out of that vulnerable place, there is an attachment that forms, almost like a baby blanket after you grow up imo. I've had something like this come up for me once personally and even though I've never got to the point of needing to defend that source I got value from, it does sting because part of you identifies with the source and teachings therefore when someone critiques that source or teaching, it's like they're critiquing you. I went ahead and watched Adeptus's livestream and I feel like most of it was valid despite what other people may think on here. At no point did I feel that there was slander or that Actualized.org was being dragged through the mud. There are also points where Adeptus talks about the positives of the way Leo is handling different issues such as the phone call he had with Connor Murphey and one of the posts he made on the thread discussing recent events( Around 1:08:00-1:17:00). They talked about how Leo or any of the mods are trying to do anything malicious or create a cult but sometimes it seems like there is one forming around Leo anyway (basically collective ego). Overall, @AdeptusPsychonautica, I loved this video and I think It's important to contemplate on the darker aspects of spirituality and self improvement rather than idealizing it. Here are somethings that I found were really valuable that I want to include in my journal.: Around the 15 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about how these teachings aren't things that were made up by the community rather they are things that were taught by ancient teachers and how back then there were teachers who had communities but since it was in person, the teacher can gage were the students are at and how much they can handle. However, this aspect gets lost when its all on YouTube and on a forum when anyone regardless of how stable they are can access it. There aren't checks and balances. I think this is a very valid critique. It's not so much a direct attack on actualized.org but it's talking about how systemically there are problems and shortcomings. At the 20-24 minute mark, I can see why some people in this community can get triggered. They are critiquing how a lot of the followers think that they are a finished product and they are so enlightened and they egg each other on in order to keep up with the master and meanwhile the master is here talking about "i've gone deeper, I've become more awakened, I encountered a new level of awakening, you can't understand where I've been." And this challenges people to do more and more and more to where it can become compulsive especially because Leo talks in these absolute terms. Adeptus talks about how this might be Leo's personal truth and how he isn't saying Leo is lying or anything like that but it's the way he goes about it. This is honestly part of the reason why I avoid parts of this forum. I personally found that this type of thing doesn't help me and how this type of thing can become very compulsive, especially when it comes to Leo's fanboys. Around the 31 minute mark: If truth realization is not your Moby Dick to where you want to sacrifice everything, go for human adulthood meaning the integration of your spiritual, emotional, relational, physical self to be your most mature self. If you don't want to sacrifice everything, point your hunger toward integration and self actualization. Then in the 37 minute mark, Mackenzie talks about her experiences with nonduality how she felt all the love and light in the moment but then she came back down to just being human again and still having all of her problems that she had before the experience and how that can be discouraging and therefore cause people to go on these endless seeking journeys. I feel like this is where I'm at with my views on spirituality and self realization. I do care more about integration and building a fulfilling life than simply transcending everything and joining the void. Because based on some of the interactions I've had on this forum, teachers that I have learned about in history, and interacting with Leo himself is that even if they get an enlightenment experience, there is still plenty of human shit and blind spots you'll still have. And I think to go towards actualization is to deal with that in a slow consistent way rather than dealing with nonduality and transcendence. Around the 40 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about cleaning up her nihilism she encountered from spirituality and how she started building meaning in the form of close relationships, books, etc. to slowly start rebuilding her ego to care about existing. And then she realized that that was the process that she wanted all along and because she grew up in the shadow of new age culture where ego death, nonduality, mysticism, love and light are more a part of the conversation than anything, she thought that was the way to fix herself. But for her it was more along the lines of deep psychological work, embodiment, and healing that she realized she wanted more of a complete human experience instead of transcending the human experience because that was the thing sold to her as a way to deal with being here. In order to deal with being here, you don't have to leave. You just have to be present and accept the present moment instead of constantly feeling like you have to do more and more to reach a higher and higher state of consciousness in order to be at peace with the present moment. In spiritual communities its like there is always some place else to get to. It goes back to the 27 minute mark where Mackenzie talks about how there are two levels. There is truth realization and done. Once you reach done, that's it there is no more self discovery of lets go see what else I can find. Once you're enlightened, the seeker disappears so if you're seeking more experiences, you're still seeking which can get compulsive. I love this section. While I never became nihilistic, I've had a point where I got really attached to detaching. I journaled about this before and how it relates to my relationship to actualized.org. Basically it wasn't cute. I had a friend who was like "I don't think you even know who you are anymore" because I got caught in this cycle of even detaching from the healthier forms of my ego like my personality, my hobbies and interests etc. It wasn't this enlightenment thing that people often talk about here. And from then on I took a step back from spirituality and self help in order to be more gentle with myself so I can build myself back up again. This was the post I was talking about and here is the part that I think is most applicable to this post: Around the 47 minute mark: I also like how they discuss how people turn spiral dynamics is another dick measuring contest lol. Also Adeptus talks about how it's not about the model itself rather it's about how people use it to judge others and turn it into a dogma. Then Mackenzie talks about how it's important ot just see it as a model rather than THE TRUTH that explains and solves everything because that can be the indication that this is probably a defensive ego mechanism. Reminds me of something I wrote elsewhere in this journal: Around the 1 hour 3 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about how some teachings are vague or are gatekept because the highest teachings can be dangerous. Vague teachings will only make sense when people ponder it for a while and then when the reach a certain place in their journey it will make sense. And that bread crumbing your way to truth is part of a gradual process of direct experience where you figure it out on your own, therefore if something goes wrong, you can still back track. However with psychedelics, you're kind of thrown into the truth and then you may or may not be able or ready to deal with it which can be dangerous if someone doesn't have proper integration. Granted I've never experimented with psychedelics and I don't plan to any time soon, but I do 100% agree with the need for proper integration and the importance of pacing yourself in the journey to find truth. It reminds me of Leo's video on ego backlash where if there is a sudden change, even if it's for the better it can lead to a huge backlash because individually and collectively we want to aim towards homeostasis rather than growth because homeostasis feels safe while growth is a leap into the unknown. And these backlashes, even though they may look like a step back after taking a step forward, are important so that you don't do too much too soon and throw everything off and cause chaos while aiming for growth. The bigger the growth, the bigger the backlash. To me that's important to take into consideration because to me that means taking on too much too soon can yield to a huge backlash which can be pretty detrimental. And to me, it means that it's important to take your time on the journey and pace yourself so that you don't have a backlash that is so devastating that it takes away all of your progress. It simply isn't sustainable. That's something I also learned this year as I've been trying to take a more gentle, slow approach to discipline rather than a rigorous strict way to discipline. It goes back to that feeling of always wanting to get somewhere rather than appreciating where you are now. The spiritual ego wants to be enlightened as soon as possible and if it means taking a shit ton of LSD or 5meo, it will take that route over a slower and more sustainable way like through meditation, self-inquiry, and working on yourself in general. I don't think there is anything wrong with those substances and that there is a time and place for them but when you have a spiritual ego that wants to get more and more enlightenment experiences that last longer and longer and go deeper and deeper, I can see how that can turn very dysfunctional to where someone might contemplate on ending their life so that they are in that state of bliss forever. 1:21:00: "What are things about yourself that you are trying to avoid by transcending that? That's where to start. What are you trying to transcend, why are you so fucking eager to transcend it." I just really like this part. I think a lot of people need to contemplate this tbh and I think this is a good quote to end this post at.

@BipolarGrowth You know, I used to feel like that a few months ago when learning about all this spiritual stuff. I used to think that if I have way more understanding than 99.99% of the people, then it's as though I've "lost" the journey for discovering those things on my own at a slower pace. I had notions that it's like forcing myself to become "old" and skip on life and just reach to the end. After looking into it deeper and "upping" my awareness levels I see that this is EXACTLY what I need to pursue, and that there is no "too early" or "rushing it". Rather than skipping on life it feels more like going deeper in life. It feels more like slowing the time rather than accelerating it. And above all I can experience vastly what's happening in the moment. I also used to think that enlightenment and spiritual work meant that at one point all the feelings I'll feel are joy, bliss and calmness, which sounded ok, but not really rich so there was some cognitive dissonance. I tried suppressing "negative" emotions. But in general I feel like everyone goes through similar phases of understanding spirituality in more depth. In my current state my understanding is that spirituality means the pursuit of real freedom. Freedom from attachment, freedom to feel all emotions (even the "negative"), freedom to think without suppressing. But also freedom to move between my lower and higher self, consciousness and unconsciousness.

It’s an RPG man. We can’t tell you how to build your character. And yes, a non-character is still a type of role ? But more seriously, there are gifts in this life worth attaching to. There is not one perfect state, occurrence, or achievement. If you want to have no attachments, do so. Become fully enlightened. Transcend suffering. But just remember, once you leave the realm of suffering, you might find that you acted like a kid who wanted to grow up so, so badly and then later wishes he could return to the innocence, ignorance, and bliss of the “limited.”

Ever since childhood I've had ADHD. Continually acting out, I was constantly chastised by my parents for my impulsivity and inability to focus. At the time I simultaneously was known as "that weirdo kid" and "the smart kid." As I've learned that many ADHD kids face, I was repeatedly told how much potential I had (inferring that I’m wasting it). Throughout middle and high school I was able to tame my inner spirit of acting out, as I became aware how much I was screwing up my own life by never paying attention, so I was able to force myself to get it together. The main remnant of my ADHD (which, I'll note, I was never diagnosed with for a very long time) was lack of focus. It seems pretty straightforward. You can do concentration practice, and you can meditate. You can find your passion and do things that really excite you. One of these things is sure to tame your inner beast. It's just focus, right? Unfortunately, it was never so easy for me. I really don't like being the victim and relinquishing all hope over my life, so as a precursor to the rest of this, I haven't given up hope. I just need some input. Back to the story. Throughout taking some pretty difficult classes (for an undiagnosed ADHD kid), I found myself studying more than my peers for many assignments and taking school seriously. Doing work was so infuriating, and it still can be. Because even on medication now, I have trouble focusing. It only alleviates the issue. In school, no class would go by where I didn't look at the clock at least 5 times. If you're not familiar with the brain chemistry component of ADHD, people are not hyperactive and unfocused because there is a chemical that causes them to be distracted. Rather, it's a lack of dopamine, which leads to a lack of sustained focus and interest. I've heard theories that this is because back in hunter-gatherer societies, humans couldn't be focused on one thing for too long, otherwise they could be killed by a wild animal. Whatever the cause may be, it makes it so that you don't find an interest in so many things. I can’t “lose yourself" in many activities as many neurotypical people can. Simply "find your passion" is *not* enough to ignite me. I've taken Leo's life purpose course and read books on mastery + LP. I've done meditation and concentration practice, as well as breathing work. I still meditate on a daily basis. I've watched countless videos on YT for how to "find your passion," and I have probably more than 100 google docs journals writing in pure frustration and confusion, not to mention I've tried probably around 10 - 15 activities/hobbies in search of finding that *one* I really enjoyed. I can only imagine the ease with which a neurotypical person can "find their purpose" and just be done. I would do anything to wake up in the morning out of love of one's craft. I've had periods where I would be willing to trade an arm and a leg for a deep passion. I'm so jealous of people who can immerse themselves in activities. When I see someone who goes "I can work for 12+ hours at a time in full immersion because I love what I do." all I can think of is what hells I can put myself through to get there. It's excruciating. Most people probably know the general idea of the concepts presented in Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's "Flow" by now. This is where you become a master in your craft of choice, and get to points where you can just focus for extended periods of bliss. Although I find certain things can be enjoyable, I don’t really have a passion that can get focus/flow states, (sadly) with the exception of videogames: For me, the main thing I've really been able to achieve a flow state in is videogames. It's all I really want to do a lot of the time. Before I even had my personal computer, my parents told me I would try playing some rudimentary games on the ancient preschool computer/device. I don’t know what it is, but I just lose touch with my body, the world, and can lose myself for hours. This is what's known as "hyperfocus" in ADHDers. We can't control what we hyperfocus on. We just do. For me, it's videogames. I become immersed. Apart from that and some really beautiful shows I've seen, nothing can grasp and pull me in the same way. After a long day of confusion, I just want to load up my game and fight against other people. It’s just me and my mouse at that point, and it feels great, except for that nagging feeling in the back of my head that I’m wasting my life and that I’m being lazy again. As for some other things I (sort of) enjoy, there’s story building and creating fictional, intricate worlds, fine visual arts - specifically drawing people and detailed machinery. I always liked the line-making aspect of drawing over the creative aspects of it, though. The repetitive motion and the pursuit of perfection was nice. I’m not super creative. Ever since a young age, I was much more logically inclined (left brain) and I always gravitated toward more puzzle-type logical things. Everyone knew me as being really good at math and a fast thinker. I remember also getting really into deck-building games and I would pore over different combinations for cards for hours. Adding onto that, I also really liked strategy and I remember getting lost in my head with different strategies for the games I played. I liked the aspect of tinkering with arranging different parts into something unique with deckbuilding in particular. Putting things together like that was always fun. That might be the closest I got to enjoying something creative, but I don’t really know how to transfer something like that to an LP. Pure creativity without a purpose to make something of value/something useful (I intellectually know all of this is still subjective) like abstract art or art in general turned me off, and it still does. A reason I was never really able to get into writing/world creation was because no matter how many hard magic systems I built, nothing felt like it had inherent meaning (Again, subjective opinion). I liked making really intricate, detailed things through art, but never really the actual artistic part. There are a few artistic works I've seen that have just really struck me like lightning, but other than that, I haven't really been able to appreciate much art throughout my life. More so than creative, I also enjoyed any sort of competitive activity - I was fiercely competitive and it would engulf me. I liked the skill ladder for any pursuit that I could climb and improve against others. As for my skills, I’m very intuitive. When I was very good at math as a kid, it would be because I knew how all the cogs of the metaphorical machine worked, and I could just intuit the answer. I didn’t really think in words by saying (seven times four means I add seven.. one, two, three, four times), but instead my mind would just jump to the answer. I wouldn’t think in pictures, but I would just feel the way of doing the problem. I’ve pondered the idea of being like a hands-on-craftsman, or, more generally, I like the idea of going into a field where I can tinker and feel my way through things. As I grew up, though, I was taught to solve all problems in words via deductive reasoning, and given the complexity of many problems in school, I often made silly mistakes and, to this day, take longer than most to understand most concepts. Also, I can read people’s emotional states very well. Sometimes I find myself responding to people based on the “vibe” they’re giving off, rather than the words that are coming out of their mouth. I can be very socially attuned to how people react to certain things. I also really enjoy being able to give presentations/talks and teaching information. I remember teaching concepts would always light me up. I can’t really see myself being a teacher, or therapist though. It’s very frustrating because I feel like I have all these strands, yet asked “what do you really want?”, the strands don’t come together to form any cohesive piece. I’m incredibly mercurial, switching from one thing to the next. Nothing really sticks. As for my impact on the world, I care more about quality of impact on more individual scales, rather than widespread, thinned impact. Apart from this, I’m still searching, as I have been for as long as I can remember. Unfortunately for me, I can’t really "hyperfocus" on much of anything else besides games, including many of the activities I listed above. When I have to do something, I can do the activity, and often I do. I force myself, though. I’ve gotten good at doing chores, and unfortunately 95%+ of life feels like one to me. This had led to a lot of neuroses, such as constantly, constantly thinking about the future. I can stay in the present for short periods of time, but there’s little attraction to the present moment for me. I’m an excessive overthinker and I tend to live in my head and doubt myself a lot. I'm a big worrier and perfectionist too, although I'm working on not feeding these thoughts. One skill I’ve obtained from suffering with ADHD for so long is the ability to “just get through it”. Especially on medication, I can force myself through the day, but I rarely enjoy most of the activities. I “get through” this activity, then “get through” this work, and then I “get through” this other thing. It’s not purely a mindset thing, either. I just don’t enjoy so much of life. Always living for the future. The first approach to this problem : Reading a lot about the creative freedoms of mastery and the fulfillment that masters get from improving their craft, I’ve always wanted to master a skill. I read “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” by Cal Newport and "Mastery" by Robert Greene, and I’m starting to think that maybe I need to force and grind my way to mastery. My dad always commented that “You only seem to really like the things that you’re good at.” Perhaps when I’ve reached the top of skill mountain, I can see things from a different vantage point and do what I really enjoy. With implementing strong habits and having friends keeping me accountable, I could pick a domain I’m willing to put in the time for, and grind out the skills necessary. I’m super competitive, so that could help in this quest for developing skill. I know this doesn’t seem too healthy, putting grind over passion, and putting competition over creativity. At this point though, it’s the best strategy I can think of for myself. I have a habit of switching my focuses right away (because again, I find so little things interesting), so perhaps if I could just stay stuck like glue to one skill and put in 2k-5k-10k hours, I’ll be able to enjoy life more. If I make a plan and force myself to stick to it, maybe I would begin to enjoy it along the way. I don’t think keeping the habit or laziness would be the issue if I really decided to go down this road, it’s more so whether I would genuinely want to make this time commitment. The second approach I could take is to just keep looking. To find something that really gets me on fire, that one thing I can laser-focus on and I can keep coming back to by being pulled, rather than pushing myself. (everything right now is me pushing myself). This would be nice. It feels like I’ve exhausted so many options, though. TL DR Is it a pitfall to make a synthetic LP through just getting skilled at one thing until I can appreciate that thing at a deeper level and attain deeper levels of focus? Or should I keep searching for something that really draws me in? I have bad ADHD and cannot find enjoyment in many activities the “normal” way. Thank you for sticking with me through the long read. I’d be grateful for any advice.

Yes, that's actually one type of "meditation" I enjoy doing. Like sitting, or laying on my back and not caring about anything, once I reach that state of being, I actually feel what you could call contentment, without reaching profound meditative states. @Tim Ho The heaven awakening I had is not really a metaphysical truth, but more like a change in perspective + no-ego state. Not as incredible as Kundalini bliss or nothingness. Let's hope My head will show itself to me I also stopped torturing myself with SDS meditation, cold water showers etc, because I have a notion, that spirituality is a path made out of suffering, for it to be transcended, which is a very unhealthy perspective on life. I am aware, that once I let go of strong physical pain, I enter a state of equanimity, but that's harder for sneaky stuff, and I often don't see the point of that. @Gianna I don't only watch Leo's videos, I'm also in shinzen young's fb community, but I just love this forum too much. I am sorry you feel that way. It's really hard to remember the highs, when we are low.

It's only after my 4th what I call a 'interactive hallucination' that I've finally considered that this may have something to do with higher levels of consciousness, but I'm not sure, and that's why I'm writing this post. Hallucination may not be the correct term but bear with me. Background: 26 now, been doing the whole personal development stuff since 17 and overall live a peaceful life, apart from one main thing that's been knocking on my door which is the call to intimacy. Hallucination 1 I experienced my first one about 1.5 years ago after waking up a little hungover and drowsy. I lost my notes on it but from what I recall, it was lucid-dream-like but not a lucid dream. It had a dreamy feel to it. I was in a room, without my body, a point of consciousness, and I got sucked into a point across the side of the room that I recognized as DMT dust. There was a profound message that my Dad was hyper-committed to my Mum because of love, in spite of the hardships of caring for someone with heavy mental illness. This has always scared me, but I understood why Dad stuck around after that experience. I woke up in a shock which I can describe as neither good or bad. I had 2-3 more between then and now, spaced about 6 months apart. Hallucination 2 Another one during my 6-months of my stint of unconditional love outpouring and absolute joy! I was drowsy in the afternoon, and in minutes I entered this sleep-paralysis-like state and I started seeing clear psychedelic geometry, and my body was merging with everything other than my body! Buzzing sounds... This is why I describe these experiences as interactive. They involve more than just seeing something. It typically involves the body merging with the outside, and I'm completely awake, yet kind of in a dream space and my body is immobile. It also has a spiritual presence to the experience, unlike previous sleep-paralysis experiences I've had when I was a young teenager, they had nightmarish themes. Hallucination 3 (today) Context: Around 2pm, in bed on a work break Journal entry: Was feeling tired, wasn't sure why but biggest suspect was the amounts of fat I'm eating on a non-keto diet. The 2 giant strips of bacon, 4 eggs, and butter I had this morning. Anyway... Shit got interesting... I was listening to Leo from Actualized.org talk about Jordan Peterson. Just 5-minutes-ish in and suddenly I found myself with my body paralyzed, fixed in place. The voice of Leo in the background. Conscious. Aware. I heard a continuous stream in the background, something that was similar to the 'bye woody' scene in toy story, that echooey 'byyyyeeeeeeeee wooooooooooooddyyy' with a bit of chime, ring and spin. Subtle. I saw blackness. I felt my body on it's side, slowly beginning to automatically penetrate. There was a feeling that this is all my body wanted to do. It was begging for it. Maybe my minds projection, but nonetheless that was what was happening. Automatic penetration. The dick wants to penetrate a woman. ***I was not using my will to do this, it was automatically happening, it was as if I was an observer of it yet feeling it at the same time Maybe the mind speaking again, but whilst and upon awakening from this experience, it's clear to me that penetration into a woman where I'm truly aware and loving, is what needs to happen to break through. ***note - this has been a recurring theme for a long time now, including on psychedelic experiences, to get intimate with a woman - it's been a long time and I often avoid it because I find it more comfortable to do things on my own It feels like there is something to break through. I felt my body merging with everything outside of me. At one point I saw visuals. Like a blurry painting right in the centre of my vision, taking up 15% of the composition. The rest black. It's a divine space. Common themes: Happens when I'm drowsy in the afternoon Lasts no more than 5 minutes Pretty clear visions Peripheral is always black Feel completely conscious Body immobile Ringing, buzzing, or feint spiritual ambient music A slight 'holiness' feel to the experience Merging of the body with the environment outside of it This is probably the biggest reason I feel this isn't an ordinary dream, lucid dream, sleep-paralysis, or hypnagogic experience - it's so potent and lines up with many accounts of experienced meditators - I can best describe it as 'merging with the universe' I feel like if this merging were to get any stronger, I would become everything and completely engulfed in euphoric bliss, it feels amazing, although I don't feel there would be 'me' anymore in my body, just one giant all encompassing infinity - I don't really have the words Thoughts on what I'm experiencing?

What happened here speaks to the depth of these teachings. I believe this is why someone like Peter Ralston considers himself a "facilitator" (specifically not a teacher) and is incredibly cheeky, and at times, totally ambiguous with his communications about the deepest truths. This is why someone like Shinzen Young is so strict about teaching about mindfulness and not the philosophical implications of what the practice reveals. I believe this is why Gurus, Zen masters, etc., have a reputation of intentionally holding back how much they're willing to share with their students. If the student is not ready the results of repeatedly hearing these types of teachings can be disastrous. Yet on the other hand, even if someone where not psychologically ready to hear, "life is a dream, you are God, you were never born, you'll never die, your entire self and life is imagination, etc." I do not think the results would be suicide or self harm. At worst, someone may be plunged into an existential depression and at best, it could be the shell shock they needed to hear to begin their spiritual journey. For those with genuine mental illness, it doesn't really matter what the trigger is. It could be radical non-dual teachings, or it could be utterly self-derived delusional thinking. I do think there is inherent risk with the way Actualized.org has so successfully marketed itself across the internet, and the unintentional consequences that could result from these utterly radical ideas becoming so mainstream. However, I think there is a deeper risk with these teachings not becoming mainstream. Humanity is at an inflection point with our level of technological power; we are so severely lacking in a mature, compassionate, wise level of self-understanding. While these teachings may be utterly radical, and anti-thetical to the modern world's way of thinking, and therefore poses a certain level of risk, they are honest and authentic to one's direct experience of who and what they are. This type of radical self honesty is what the world is going to need if we are going to effectively face the growing number of existential threats on the horizon (increases in extreme weather events, rising sea levels, pollution of the oceans, world wide mass extinction, destruction of the rain forests, artificial intelligence, job loss as a result of artificial intelligence, gene editing, 3d printing, surveillance capitalism, virtual reality...) In essence, it seems that what Actualized.org has done with advanced spiritual teachings may not be ideal for the individual in every case, but given the need of these models and ideas for the collective development of the world, it seems the collective impact of Leo's work outweigh's the inherent risk for any given individual. That's my view. As is explicitly specified in the forum guidelines, this work is not for those with mental illness. Sometimes mental illness does not present itself as depression, but can at times present itself as delusional thoughts and feelings of connection and bliss. There are many flavors and forms of mental illness. It would be unreasonable to expect that moderators or Leo to have the capacity to monitor for this type of stuff. We are a community that exchanges ideas and communications, not a professional mental health service. Of course if the signs present themselves it is paramount that we take the necessary steps to help the individual. I think this applies for all of us, not simply mods. But again, mental health services is not the function, nor was ever the intention, of this forum. It was truly a tragedy with what happened with SoonHie. It's affected me more deeply than I thought it would. I have no words for his family and loved ones other than I'm sorry for what has happened, and I'm sorry you have to continue without him. There are no words that can fill that void. May his soul rest easy and may you all feel and heal deeply. With love.

@Holygrail I think there are things that are objectively wholesome and unwholesome. Wholesome things produce wholesome mindstates like joy, bliss, compassion and contentment, while unwholesome things produce unwholesome mindstates like greed, hatred, and lust. While we should develop compassion towards all things, even those that cause revulsion, I think its important to know the difference and not just accept everything as good. If something is ugly and repulsive we should know it as such, but not let it affect our own wholesome mindstates.

@RMQualtrough well without ego you cannot identify with suffering. This is the ultimate state in Buddhism. I want to make an end of suffering. Since I have access to some psychedelics atm I was curious as to if it would help the process or is it just a temporary state it invokes. Because I don't use them in a recreational sense, I just wonder how useful they are on the path. From what it seems like, the most effective way is to make sure to integrate new routines after the trip while you still have that "reset" of the nervous system that psychedelics give you. So whatever you take away from the trip, you need to integrate it into your life or you just fall back to old patterns and the trip will just be a "memory." For me, I don't feel too intimidated by any fearful experience that can arise, I mainly worry if there's any physiological damage that can be done, like I balancing neurochemicals or creating some kind of disturbance in energy flow of the body. Some psychics say it creates energetic blockages some say it frees blockages so who knows. My 5 meo trip was suffering, but the key is to surrender and just accept what will happen, with the knowledge that no real harm will come to you. I think if you have this mindset the bad part of the trip will not last long and you'll be sucked into that bliss oneness state. Some people jump straight into that bliss state without touching the fear part. But even if you do experience the fear part, if you understand it wasnt "real" then you recover pretty fast. It's all about acceptance of the experience that determines a good or bad trip I think. If you try to resist wherever it's taking you, it will create more and more bad feelings. If you can just flow with the experience and just accept it as an experience, it'll take you to good states. I recently read the psychedelic experience by Tim leary and the way he explains his method for using lsd is pretty good. Basically if you try to resist where it's taking you, you will encounter more hardships, but if you just surrender to the experience, it will generally guide you into those bliss states.

Yes our awakenings sound similar and the key here and maybe I didn't point this out earlier but there is a shift in identity. As it is realized there is no self there is a shift in consciousness to identifying with Consciousness itself. You become aware that you are awareness itself. Which is God. Now the realization that as Consciousness I was completely Infinite came later. But in this awakening there was Divinity/Bliss it was Pure Consciousness. So for me Infinity was a different awakening as was Nothingness. The body can't contain Infinity so that awakening was something else. Abiding in non-dual awareness later to me is something that continues to deepen over time but yes there is the ability to shift Consciousness now to a meta level although I do not always abide in this 24/7. But this isn't the same as abiding in an Infinite state of Consciousness have to agree with Leo there. It does not take away from someone being awake. It could be here we are also just getting caught up in language. But as I am typing this to you I am imagining you are a real being or ie imagining you into existence as imagination is reality - and therefore my Consciousness is shifted into dual gear. About that- the final awakening for me here was what i call Oneness (the collapse of self/other) - it came about a month after all the rest. This too was a mystical expanded state of consciousness in which I became directly conscious that I was completely alone as God and all of this was being held within my Consciousness not out there somewhere but within my Mind as God. All beings were me. All creatures were me, etc. This was probably the single most ultimate mindfuck and the most difficult to accept. But you cannot run from it. You cannot hide from it. All other are no different than the the thought of a unicorn you may have. And it is laid bare before your eyes because your mind has expanded so much. This...this one especially is an extremely profound awakening you can have.

My pleasure! I don't think I contribute anything tbh I never claim to be teaching anything I just like sharing for the sake of it. the only concern with going to that Vipassana retreat was because I was still going through unfoldment after the Big Bang breakthrough, and during that time I would shift into psychedelic-like states or having crazy out of body experiences before I fall asleep, and I read that during retreats one can easily enter realms and either temporarily or permanently "stuck" with entities lol. And I'm just not too into magical realms lol. There was no fear of self annihilation. I do enjoy every moment to the fullest. You pretty much go back to being a child playing in a sand box while doing every day tasks. It's kind of like being on acid 24 7 but in a way it's even deeper because it isn't exactly a mind blowing experience per se, since both the mind and the experiencer are transcend hehehhe. Remind you that all experiences or mood shifts that come with awakening are mostly just the by product of Realization, not everyone who's awakened experience cosmic bliss 24 7 lol don't let that fool you. Equanimity is transcends both bliss and none-bliszzzz sure there can be thoughts, they're just in equal footing with all other sensations arising in the field like birds chirping or winds blowing. Way way less self voice in the head. But even this isn't an indicator of awakening. Some people have more thoughts after no self, you're simply dis-identified from them is all.

If the whole of your spiritual work is using psychedelics, then yes they are temporary states and nothing more. However, if you have a grounded, rigorous spiritual practice such as contemplation/meditation 1+ hours per day, these experiences slowly start to soak in at extremely subtle levels of your mind and even body. Sometimes not so subtle. For example, I've done enormous amounts of healing work using psilocybin mushrooms. If I had the position that all of those mushroom trips were just useless temporary states, I would be missing the fact that those experiences helped open my mind up to many, MANY, hidden layers of trauma, attachment, and other unconscious aspects of my mind and further, helped facilitate a space wherein I was able to integrate and heal from these different unconscious wounds. So while it's true those states are long gone, their effects are actually what is generating my present moment experience. The healing work is undeniable. More generally speaking, repeatedly accessing these higher states on psychedelics can be thought of as planting seeds. For sure the state will come and go, but as we meditate, we can start to become sensitive to the fact that these experiences do leave energetic traces deep within our being. These traces, or "seeds", can then later be accessed in their own way through the process of manual practice. We can think of manual practices as providing the nutrients, the sunlight, and the water for the blossoming of these powerful experiences into our every day, lived experience. This is not to say that we will be tripping balls 24/7 in our grounded, sober state of consciousness. Yet we will begin to see how these 'higher frequency' feelings of bliss, love, peace, joy, gratitude, kindness, expansiveness are increasingly available while sober. Merely by accessing them at deep levels allows us to more easily access them while sober, yet this takes genuine work (i.e. meditation practice) to access. On the other hand, we will also begin to find the underlying unity between profound mystical states, and the mundane sober state such that we no longer need to be tripping balls to feel a deep oneness, a deep unity with all things. We realize this moment is none other than a complete, perfect expression in and of itself, needing nothing else. That perfection we find with all things while blasted off on a trip begins to ground itself across any and all states through the systematic training provided by manual practices like meditation. The trap of never using psychedelics is that we may very easily start to form blind spots within our own minds, with our spiritual practices, self-deception can run more rampant and we may begin to bullshit ourselves with how "spiritually developed" we think we are. The trap of misusing psychedelics is that we get caught on a hamster wheel of always feeling like we need to introduce an exogenic substance to the body in order to deeply understand and experience the unity of all things, accessing higher frequency states/God. The most holistic approach would be to keep using these substances with deep reverence, appreciation, curiosity, and humility while also grounding their use through manual practices like meditation. Eventually one comes to see the distinction between tripping and not tripping is imaginary, and therefore all one needs to do is see clearly into experience to see the truth across any and all states. As one deepens their meditation practice, the psychedelic experience begins to deepen as well. As one deepens in their psychedelic experiences, one's meditation practice will deepen as well. They are absurdly synergistic when both are practiced with diligence and intelligence.

I'm wondering how you all use psychedelics for spirituality. In my case I've tried 10 tabs of lsd (first time using psychedelics) combined with psilocybin music therapy playlists with an eye mask, mdma with the music playlist and eye mask, insufflating 45mg 5 meo freebase (went with 45mg instead of 30mg because I thought there may be a tolerance because immediately before i tried vaping 15mg but I didn't get a breakthrough dose because of technical problems, but my body did start moving on its own and I had this whiteness and rainbow in my vision), and also vaping 15mg 5 meo and achieved breakthrough. The vaping was just a very short version of my insufflation experience, and while it had the same general trip guidelines as the insuflation, it felt less impactful because it was so short. After it was over I only had an afterglow for an hour or so while the insufflation lasted days and some mild reactivations. In each case except the mdma i experienced what felt like eternity and the infinite rounds of death and rebirth then reaching the ego death state where I thought I was the creator and everyone was just part of my imaginings. That there was no one but me all along. I felt how silly and small all my problems and worrys were when it was just a spec in the vast length of time within infinity. After comming out of these experiences I always had an afterglow for a day or two where I was super compassionate and understanding towards others and I felt I could forgive people for their flaws because I could understand it came from deep fears and insecurities that all people have hidden within them. I felt like I understood that everyone is just alone in this universe and that they aquire ways of coping with this deep sense of dissatisfaction and insecurity towards life either through lust, greed, hatred, or pride. But after a week I'm usually back to normal and I wonder to myself what use was all that if it doesn't last? People here talk about how they see the oneness of the universe or that they know they are God or a part of God, but what exactly does that do for your life? I'm wondering how you guys use psychedelics besides just for the experience of oneness or bliss or whatever. Personally I'm just not attracted to those temporary states and am wondering if there's any reason to continue psychedelics for spirituality.

More opposite direction. Awakening is profound but subject object, with awakening as the object or experience of the one which awakens, wether referring to self, no self, God, Being, etc. God consciousness is an awakening experience for example, and isn’t as purified so to speak re subject object, or, is a right of passage if you will back to not knowing. Analogously imagine someone experiencing thought attachment and negative psychology being told they are state free or state less no mind bliss. The gap makes it sound like a full circle back to regular old nonsense. A thought (something known) about won’t do, and direct experience won’t do. Aka Mu. The terms ‘not knowing’, or ‘mu’ even, are like the term sun, compared to being the sun, and not knowing what a sun is.