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You don't think the actual context (nonduality vs God realization) of most of the original disagreements, was slightly overlooked here ? Seems like the elephant in the room to me.

I'm not saying Leo didn't make any mistakes in the way that he handled disagreements. What I'm saying is that most of the focus here has been placed on just that, ie how disagreements were handled. From what I can tell there wasn't that much focus on the actual context of the disagreements. Which pretty much seems to be: nonduality vs God realization (dating all the way back to the days of Nahm) As a personal example: Recently I really got into radical nonduality, especially the work of Jim Newman. For me it really feels like a big opening of Grace is happening that will take me all the way. Leo told me in no uncertain terms: "It's just not the Full Monty." Now, it might take me all the way, it might not. I'm still open to learning, and I still do learn from Leo. Am I now going to fight Leo on this specific topic. What would be the point ? Just follow ur own resonance at the time. It's kinda simple really. (So much unnecessary drama)

So you saying you and Carl Richard didn't have the same level of integrity as Zurew, ie to sacrifice membership here. I think Elliott might be right, perhaps there was some kind of ego battle he had with Leo. From listening to @Carl-Richard, it sounds like the root of a lot of the disagreements, dating back to the days of Nahm, was mostly about nonduality vs God realization. And even just going through the spirituality section now, you can kind of still spot the two camps. My sense is that some of the God realization guys tend to underestimate radical nonduality. But I'll be the first to admit that there's always more to explore. (Perhaps Nahm and others still had something to learn from Leo, but hey he seemed convinced otherwise, so God bless him where ever he may be. His practical life advice though just seemed way off at times. Not sure if him or his followers had integrated as much as they thought at the time.)

Can you at least acknowledge that he gave bad practical life advice. Also, if you're into radical nonduality, I would converse more with Mellowmarsh, she proper switched on.

So it's like nonduality vs God realization What happened with Nahm's forum, is it still alive ?

Yeah, I wouldn't describe it as being genetically encoded in the brain really, it's more like the entirety of the organism, it's predisposition like you mentioned...... just like a bear, deer, cat or fish. But for some reason in the human mind/brain, this identity gets taken to a whole different extreme. It builds layers on top of layers, concepts on top of concepts, bundles & bundles of self referential thoughts, preferences and memories, beliefs on top of beliefs. It's like the mind becomes an entity in- of-itself and then appears as the forefront of the entire operating system of the human. The more identity food (conditioning) it's given, the bigger and more complex this identity seems to become. And with all these needy preferences and beliefs, comes a lot of psychological suffering.....like a constant state of feeling alone, separate and overwhelmed. This entire operating system of identification is what's referred to as the "ME" or "Ego" it's very heavy and feels dense. Sometimes, although very rare, this entire identification operating system can die/collapse and simultaneously be recognized as having never been real in the first place. When this seems to occur, it's like a ton of bricks dropped off the mind and shoulders of the body/mind organism. It's incredible just how much energy goes into this fictional self construct. One of the big symptoms of this phenomenon is that seeking ends. But nobody comes out enlightened or liberated on the other side. That whole heavy identity is completely shattered, never to return. Not because something really got shattered, because it's clearly recognized as having never been. It also becomes very clear and obvious how this big self illusion becomes formed over a period of time. Basically that entire past process of the self identity being created is clearly and totally seen through. AND THIS IS WHAT REAL ENLIGHTENMENT, SAMADHI, AWAKENING, LIBERATION, NIRVANA, NO SELF, NONDUALITY, ACTUALLY IS. It has nothing at all to do with believing "I am god" or "I am that" or "I am all of reality" ...........those would just be more spirituality conditioned concepts stemming from an illusory identification.........meaning enlightenment definitely hasn't occurred for the body proclaiming such stories. It's unknowing, just like Ralston describes

Dude im talking about consciousness in absolute perspective, You seem confusing 2 different levels of reality. I'm talking about the absolute nature of experience, not how to behave in society,from the absolute perspective, everything appears within the same consciousness, so the distinction between "me" and "chair" its just something you made up from your mind From the relative perspective, there are still body, laws, and social consequences. Realizing nonduality doesn't erase relative reality. It simply means that, at a deeper level, all distinctions arise within the same field of awareness.

A nonduality teacher can never teach another person what’s being spoken. They’ll have nothing to give you. There’s no teacher, only speaking, only the message, only the listening and only the hearing of the message. Only when the message is heard with absolute clarity is the message listened to, heard. People either hear the message or they don’t, no other person can be your listening or hearing. Only you. From the moment pure clarity is heard…there’s no more teacher or student, or message. There’s just you and you alone.

That doesn't mean they have any clue what it is. Nonduality has become a watered down buzz word. Most people using this word have no idea how radical true nonduality is.

Nonduality = No one = You = God = Imageless, uncreated, formless. Imagination = ideas and thoughts appearing as the expressive formed contents of Nonduality = Images, imprints, vision = creation, creativity manifold.

Thank you, sorry, I was referring more to the Einstein quote you had there about imagination. I have always been fascinated by imagination itself. I was just wondering how radical nonduality has influenced your sense of imagination or creativity ? (Somehow the phrase "pure imagination" comes to mind.)

No, I have no website or YouTube channel. I naturally grasped the idea of nonduality from a very young age. I remember being about 6/7 years old, being overwhelmed by a thought that just kept whirling round and round which was (how am I even existing right now) and from that moment, the answer came immediately, which was (I must have always existed) That moment of self introspection actually made sense to me, it spontaneously dawned on me that if I’m here now, then I must have always been here. I instinctively sensed I was some eternal presence, and that this eternal presence was likened to a blank unwritten canvas, that was here to paint its own unique image of itself, that it called me. From my personal perspective according to my own unique understanding, the word nonduality simply means that all words are a fiction believed to be real. Words to me are likened to the paint I apply to my blank canvas, and that the picture was constantly changing from one moment to the next and there was this unchanging witnessing of all that was changing. Feeling eternal, I instinctively understood that the paint had beginnings and endings, but the canvas behind the paint was unchanging. The paint was the word, the word was the thought. And these thoughts were everything and everywhere at once, and yet they had no specific solid foundation that could be located to a specific area that I could tangibly touch it as a solid object. It soon became clear to me that the words that were thoughts were eternal too, because they were arising and falling upon the eternal blank canvas that was this eternal presence observing. So then I thought, there’s no author or painter that can be located or attributed a single separate individual, because I had already sensed I was eternal presence, and that any separate author would have to be in the thought that was everywhere and everything all at once inseparable from the eternal presence. So I was able to instantly see through the illusion of a separate author owning the painting and the canvas, rather, the painting and the canvas had existed forever as one indivisible dreamscape without beginning nor end. Thats why I like the quote: “ I am the consummate artist, I draw upon my imagination.” Thats why I like the quote below by UGKrishnamurti. The words: “ My teaching, if that is the word you want to use, has no copyright. You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody. “

Do you have like a website or a youtube channel where you teach this stuff. You seem to have gone quite far with radical nonduality.

Who says that what Jim is talking about doesn't include the ordinary and the extraordinary ? I think there's actually more similarities between what you and he are saying than you might think. Radical nonduality seems to link up nicely with solipsism.

Drugs will not lead to a permanent state of nondual or unitary perception, known as nirvikalpa samadhi in sanskrit. It can help one to get a glimpse into higher states of consciousness with artificial means. However regular use of them instead of using meditation can lead to addiction to such drugs. Cravings for drugs actually create more vasanas or psychological impressions that strengthens duality rather than creating nonduality. Many crimes have been committed under the influence of drugs. The Nazis used drugs to stifle their sensibilities during their numerous crimes against civilians during invasions, though it is part of soldiering conduct not to harm civilians. The enlightened master Meher Baba stated that " Enlightenment is not found in a pill. " No user of drugs ever in the history of the world has attained the bliss and joy found in enlightenment. The bliss of enlightenment is also of a permanent nature in stark contrast to that of the temporary highs of drugs and alcohol charecterised by painful hangovers later on. Repeated use of drugs can also damage the capacity to meditate. Osho had talked on the nature of drugs ... https://www.oshotimes.com/insights/health/mind/understanding-addictions/ https://oshofriends.com/counseling/25566?__cf_chl_f_tk=RbUE3GRjnZBx7_74tdTc7FUm2O3nUz5CHQCVo.6JTOc-1783311572-1.0.1.1-qC_AAdLDjH0bKueYe61bBXwtWnr92JXMxGiG6uVMGGc https://oshofriends.com/counseling/32474

@Breakingthewall When there is talk of Absolute Self or God, it makes me wonder: How exactly is your notion of God different from the indescribable mystery, so called nothingness, that has the infinite ability to appear as anything under the sun and beyond, and which has as its nature, unconditional freedom, unconditional love, unconditional aliveness, infinite beauty etc ? (ie radical nonduality)

@Mellowmarsh I'm curious, if there's no one here, would you say there are some similarities between radical nonduality and solipsism ?

I agree with you. Grasping radical nonduality requires stepping entirely outside the intellectual mind. Because most people rely entirely on their intellect to navigate life, conceptualising a state with "no centre and no boundary" creates massive cognitive dissonance. An infinitesimally small percentage of the global population fully grasps radical nonduality. Because it negates the very idea of a separate "person" to do the grasping. At the end of the day, when you personally understand what Jim is pointing to, then that’s all that matters really, what other people think to the contrary is irrelevant, as there’s only your own understanding according to what you are personally hearing within the message. If people are pushing back with their own personal beliefs, then just let them, it’s not going to amount to a hill of beans, it’s just a load of hot air steaming off. Mostly just blah blah blah, far removed from the clarity within the message.

Nonduality isn't saying that there isn't apparent separation between physical objects like, humans, trees, and rocks. It's referring to the internal self illusions which seem to suffer psychologically. That which seems to suffer when it's called an ass hole or that which seems to suffer when it believes it's not good enough. There are not 2 of these, there's not even 1

According to Google, Jim and Tony's stuff is classified as radical or uncompromising nonduality. I'm not that familiar with all the official terms.

Yes indeed, and then there was Leo Hartong’s nondual pointing that said.. Nonduality , is the one question to all our answers…. That one’s very good.

I use to listen to Spira a lot. And then I kind of went off nonduality teachings for a few years. Only discovered Newman recently from a post here on the forum. Something clicked. I actually find his message quite clear. I'm curious, what do you view as confusing in his message ? I really don't think he's in this for the money per say. (He only charges like 10 dollars for his monthly zoom calls, and you can watch the replay for free on youtube.)

I think he is talking about this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/1mzkzfw/comment/nz412d8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Most teachings around spirituality are a bit the same. Basically `I AM` resting in that awareness, isness. You are God, that is the teaching, you are awareness itself, not the body, mind or ego. Although this is quite factual, in the sense that you are connected to God and that when you rest in awareness and be in your being state, that you access higher consciousness. That doesn´t mean now you have no human limitations anymore. The problem with the teachings as of now, is that it is an easy bypassing of all human things. Not just making money, what is an obvious one, but what I see in spiritual people I have been around that follow these teachings, is that everything is a sign, everything is connected, everything is one, everything is perfect, SO I don´t have to focus on this or that or sus or so. You don't have to work on that trauma, you don't have to work on your narcissistic or codependent tendencies, you don't have to focus on improving your communication or relationships. You don´t have to focus on making money, cause its ego and your not the ego you are I AM. Yet God is not gonna make money for you, make you survive, that is all up to you as a human self, because even tho you ARE in reality not human, you still HAVE a human body, a human mind, a human ego to protect the mind and body. So the problem I see with the teachings around nonduality is that they create a sweet escape, but that some things in life shouldn´t be escaped, unless you want to escape life altogether and die, but that is not what I think most people want. So as long as you want to live in this body, you will have to acknowledge that you do have a mind, body, ego and that its going nowhere anytime soon. So we can care all the time if I come from ego or not, but that is a pointless game, cause you are coming from ego anyways, even when we think we don´t, the escapism towards nonduality in itself is ego, you think God, consciousness itself would care if you are enlightened or not? No only you care, because you don't want to suffer, you want to escape, you want to not deal with your problems. And if everything is already perfect, one, God, then what is the point of dealing with your problems, you have transcended them and your human life doesn't matter anyway, cause your God. See, that is how nonduality fools you, it makes your ego, human body and human mind things to be transcended instead of to work with. In fact, it will deem it as evil, but if it were truly evil, then we should all kill ourselves now. What I think is more evil is act like you're dead and just living in the "I AM" your now consciousness and then being unaware that you have a body, mind and ego. Then you get some type of God complex where you think no human limitations matter to you, you are above that petty game, you are now high conscious, you can just attract it, manifest what you want, you can just call upon angels or your higher self for anything you need. I AM NOT GONNA DO ANYTHING, the universe provides! Well, even if that La La Land story were true, you would still be stuck in this human vessel, you still have to go to the toilet, go do the dishes, get groceries, eat, sleep, repeat, all that human stuff. You think a God makes grocery lists?? So I think its time for everyone, including me, to get off their high horse, just cause your having the capability to access higher consciousness, doesn't mean you are a walking, living God and that now with your newfound enlightenment you are invincible. You cannot even get to talk with a toothache, a small tiny tooth could trouble you all week and still you believe you are a walking living God? If you get sick, you have to go to the hospital to get help, you couldn't help yourself and you claim to be a God? No, we can access God, connect to God, be one with God, but if you truly wanted to be one with God all the time, in every moment, you should be dead as only a dead men is truly without ego, body and mind.

Hmm. https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/s/IrgyhN7XTG