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This caught my eye You said you don't care about teachers, only about getting people to the consciousness you know exists. But consider: if a teacher with ten thousand followers actually reaches those states and comes back changed, their students don't need convincing. They don't believe it because you said so. They update because the person they already trust went somewhere real and returned different. That's verified experience propagating through existing trust networks. One awakened teacher might do more for your goal than years of direct outreach. And yes, most teachers don't know how deep this goes. That's exactly the point. Imagine what happens when they find out.

The trick is that the collapse does not imply erasure of form and 'reality' unlike it may seem. Inside the singularity of God-consciousness everything remains as-is — singularity is what you see before you here and now, except the part is now aware that it is the whole. It can access a bunch of crazy partitions within itself and maybe change some content here and there, but fundamentally the infinitely awakened self and the unconscious human self are both sub-infinities within the Absolute Infinity, the structure of which not even God can alter, as that would go against its own Will, Logic, and Love. The infinities may be of different cardinality or whatever terminology you want to use, but those distinctions are themselves imaginary. That's what Equality is. So the idiots saying "you're already awake" and such are technically correct, yet nonetheless that's highly irresponsible teaching. Someone you've never heard of could be having an absolute awakening as we speak, which doesn't impact your current reality at all, but when you go have your own awakening you'll realize that all awakenings anyone has ever had were your own. The selves of God are like sandboxed processes running in their own sovereign environments, but then as part of a larger holarchy we have the collectively constructed reality which makes it possible to talk to each other, have sex, abuse and infringe on the sovereignty of others, and all that good stuff. Which ultimately is still God playing pretend with itself. Selflessness is being the hypervisor that maintains all this, but it's far from some dry, sterile thing — it's an engine of endless fun & mystery in the VMs.

@Sincerity Who here has seriously taken up both stances? Most of you believe Leo, and the hope of a pill to awakening is all too enticing to neglect or seriously question, despite what is said by people who know what they're talking about (I know you have your excuses not to listen to them, but come on). I've done the drugs, too. But I no longer do the "fantasy" involved here, which I used to believe in. Again, I also confidently believed in it and conjured up stories about my "awakenings." Not anymore. I could've convinced people and talked in such a way so that I'd have come across as awakened. You only need to make that impression on people by coming across a certain way. And gullible people would confuse the assertiveness for the reality - or lack thereof - of it as long as it affirmed their own dispositions and images. And you'd have believed me - you'd have loved it, in fact. You'd have felt warm and cozy and validated in your worldview, part of a community reaching out for "the truth." Whatever is true and the case at any level, it starts by calling things by their name. What exists? What is taking place? What is factual? What is memory? These are questions that point at the pursuit of the truth. What are lying and misrepresentation? What are fantasy and wishful thinking? What is a cult? What is anything? This contrasts with what we think or feel about these matters. I'm pointing out this gap or disparity because it seems people here tend to ignore it. But it's too big of a gap, I've recently come to understand. You've already noticed my reluctance to provide a simplistic view of the world for the mind to piece these things together and so have the feeling of understanding. But yes, I'm not enlightened now. It's a possibility of directly grasping one's nature, and I base it on my past realizations. Right now it could be said that it is a conceptual placeholder. It's not an experience. Why do you think I keep repeating this? Because it's still overlooked and goes over one's head. Direct consciousness isn't a function of the brain. Without the fantasy, no one here is either really, from what I can tell. Maybe Leo might have had a few enlightenments, but I don't know. He likes to think of himself as more awake than what comes across to me. I know this is a weird thing to say and that most will probably not get where I'm coming from or why I'm saying that to begin with, especially given that the only things they have for making that assessment are the words, behavior, and expression of someone (to which their reactions are ones of liking and feeling good, which doesn't help). If you ask, I'll respond with 'magic', 'intuition', or just paying attention. Bringing this up here is a waste of time. Thanks for warning me @kieranperez. I probably should go the same route as you.

@cetus Why not be an awakened ditch digger

To the best of my current understanding, a human mind is not ever going to know why your life is exactly the way it is and not otherwise. Like, why aren't you are chimpanzee right now? I think there is an answer to that question but it is way beyond even Awakened consciousness. That's why I call it a Mystery. Even extremely deep Awakening is not going to give you a full accounting of experience. I still can't explain why I'm not a chimpanzee right now.

Claiming or thinking oneself to be awakened is different from being awakened, or having had awakenings. I suspect lots of people do the former. I'd agree with the assumption that, in this context, virtually no one knows what they're talking about, certainly not at a deep level. It's very easy to conflate some sort of experience with awakening. (Hello).

Awakened people know what they are talking about. At least relative to Awakening. Of course they can be wrong on other matters.

Check out Awakened Masculine podcast by Jasper Brown. It used to be called Conscious Masculine but he changed it because too much of his audience were female lol, but a lot of his episodes still seem to be targeted towards men. I think he even hosts men's retreats in Australia. Honestly, something you might notice when you listen is that his personality, teaching style, language, even the way he films his videos, are all quite similar to what Leo does. I secretly suspect Leo has been his key influencer.

I think there's a great degree of humility with @Leo Gura. He's got money, but still chooses to live in a modest home, from what I heard him say somewhere. He has a modest, simple wardrobe. Also, he seems fairly introverted, like most spiritually awakened people, understandably, because think about it, it is incredibly difficult to find like-minded people, especially who have that degree of awareness, "wokeness" & spiritual understanding. It's difficult to find people to even have a conversation with about these deep topics. It can actually feel pretty lonely, I know this because I often struggle with this too. Many people in the real world aren't even "intellectuals". Or even interested in knowledge as a pursuit. They'd rather cut corners, and have others teach them knowledge, instead of learning for themselves. And most people are taught information which is often biased, or blatantly false, to which no one questions for themselves, they just blindly follow what they are told. Also, I think if he was really "arrogant" like some people claim, he would think he was "too good for us" and not even bother to take his time educating us or engaging with us on the forum. Most people with a certain degree of public knownness of fame do not engage with their fans or audience, so the fact that he does that, he doesn't have to, but he does, is a pretty good sign.

Would you ask the same question to Buddha, or Christ, or Ghandi, or any other enlightened spiritual leader who's purpose was to help awaken us all? Would you ask if they were "aliens"? Of course not. Because that's absurd. They were human beings, just like us, including Leo. They are just more deeply & profoundly awakened and enlightened than the average human.

Your questions were partly answered by my response above. Experience is everything you're aware of. Drugs provide you with an experience, shifting your state of mind. While high, you go through perceptual phenomena, subjective states and such, and you always inevitably come down. What remains is usually a story or memory of what you think happened while on the substance. Having to recall a past experience might already be pointing at the nature of this disparity. I don't know about you but I find that our ability to recollect is nothing short of unreliable and biased. Besides, it's a conceptual activity. If you believe that drugs increase consciousness, you're most likely referring to cognition. Notice how they're taken in the hope of getting enlightened - as a pill that will bring awakening to you - much like drinking coffee in order to experience the effects it has on you. You weren't awakened prior to taking them. This lack of prior contrast as to what is meant by "enlightened" is crucial here. Without it, the stage is set for mischief under those circumstances - which is what I did with my psychedelic experiences, and what many here seem to be up to.

A Summary of Awakening “Each of us is the only one there is. There’s no other!” (Katie and Mitchell 2017, chap. 1, 2) “So I read the Bible from beginning to end and really understood the original meaning, most of which has gone out of the Bible by reinterpretations again and again. And then I looked at the schools of metaphysics, theosophy, went through all of them so I'd have the language of communication. Then I realized after going through all that, simple English will do it.” (‭“Lester Levenson, Hale Dwoskin - Lester Levenson (Sedona Method) Magnum Opus PDF-Lester Levenson _ Sedona Method (2024).pdf”, 103) Lester Levenson, Byron Katie and the Pali Canon are the sources on awakening or enlightenment, the end of stress/suffering, etc. that I find most authoritative. By awakening I mean what Levenson describes in his biography, Lloyd 1983, _Choose Freedom: Have, Be, and Do Whatever You Will or Desire_, chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14. (Lloyd 1983, _Choose Freedom: Have, Be, and Do Whatever You Will or Desire_, https://archive.org/details/choose_freedom Laura Lucille, “About My Teacher”, https://lauralucille.org/blog-eng-featured/my-teacher-lester-levenson-laura-lucille “Also, when you wake up you’ll discover that you never ever were apart from your real Self, which is whole, perfect, complete, unlimited; that all these experiences were images in your mind just like in a night dream you imagine everything that’s going on. But while you’re in a night dream, it’s real to you. If someone is trying to kill you in a night dream, it’s real; you’re struggling for your life. But when you wake up from that dream, what do you say? “It was just a dream; it was my imagination.” This waking state is exactly as real as a night dream. We’re all dreaming we are physical bodies; we’re dreaming the whole thing. However, in order to reach this awakened state, it is first necessary to drop a major, part of your subconscious thinking.” (Levenson 1993, 317) _The Essential Lectures Of Alan Watts. Internet Archive,_ https://archive.org/details/02.theessentiallecturesofalanwattsego/05.+The+Essential+Lectures+of+Alan+Watts-+Cosmic+Drama.mp4. 6 min., 10 sec., Accessed 27 Nov. 2025. “However, in order to reach this awakened state, it is first necessary to” figuratively let go of or “drop a major, part of your subconscious thinking” using CBT, especially Byron Katie's The Work, but also, Brad Blanton _Radical Honesty_, David Burns's _Feeling Great_, David H. Barlow's _Treatments That Work_, Smith's _When I Say No, I Feel Guilty_, etc. “Once you see the truth, the thought lets go of _you_, not the other way around.” (Katie and Mitchell 2021, 152) “It’s the truth that sets you free.” (Katie and Mitchell 2007, chap. 40) “Before the thought, you weren’t suffering; with the thought, you’re suffering; when you recognize that the thought isn’t true, again there is no suffering.” (Katie and Mitchell 2021, 9) “When discussing the noble eightfold path, the Buddha focused most often on the fact that following it leads to the end of suffering. This point is so important in his teachings that he twice stated, “Both formerly & now, it’s only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress” (SN 22:86; MN 22). Any question that interfered with this aim, he would put aside.” DeGraff, On the Path: An Anthology on the Noble Eightfold Path drawn from the Pāli Canon, OnThePath210213.pdf, 21. https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/OnThePath/Section0006.html “When your feelings are up and out, your mind is naturally quiet. And you're self-obvious to yourself as to the fact that you are whole, complete, perfect, eternal.” (‭“Lester Levenson, Hale Dwoskin - Lester Levenson (Sedona Method) Magnum Opus PDF-Lester Levenson _ Sedona Method (2024).pdf”, 394) “Self (God) is Infinite, Limitless; One, Indivisible; Perfect; Changeless, Immutable; Timeless, Without Beginning or End; Whole, The All; Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent.” (Lester 1962, 65) “The cosmic joke is, it's all a dream. Everything. All of it.”, https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm3o1tBB39T/. “A SUMMARY THE SELF-GOD-ABSOLUTE TRUTH” (Lester 1962, 65) “Cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT)”, https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-treatments/talking-therapies-and-counselling/cognitive-behavioural-therapy-cbt/. https://www.mindprod.com/livinglove/livinglove.html “__THE WORLD AS A DREAM__” (Levenson 1993, 4) “Spiritual awakening – A spiritual awakening …” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_or_religious_experience#Related_terms https://global.oup.com/academic/content/series/t/treatments-that-work-ttw “All this took place beyond time. But when I put it into language, I have to backtrack and fill in.” (Katie and Mitchell 63, 2007) “It is incorrect to think that Nirvāṇa is the natural result of the extinction of craving. Nirvāṇa is not …” (Rahula 1978, 40) SEE ALSO (Carse 2005, _Perfect Brilliant Stillness_, 60)

Yes bypassing fear of death cucks your spiritual growth. Saying jesus of allah saves me is just pushing the thought away. Be afraid, be very afraid. The fear of death is intelligence. You will awaken by being scared. There is a story of sadhguru where he said he found another awakened person and he said he got there because he was sick and the doctors kept telling him he was going to die that day over and over again. So he kept being really scared and having to confront death daily. If you can just do this to yourself without having any other interaction or bad things happening you are highly intelligent. If you can sit there and induce panic with no stimuli you are being intelligent. I was doing it without knowing about anything. I would just be sitting there watching a movie and my entire system would enter panic mode and I would say Im dying omg. When you panic and feel like you are dying God is entering you. Dying is God. When you feel an emotion you are releasing it. Not doing it is keeping the fear inside. They are essentially paying money to bottle up fear. Then they create the idea of hell for the people to bottle up even more fear.

Check Chris Bale instagram account. Awakened Intent Podcast also have some good content.

Suppose you walk into a room with 2 boxes and a genie. 1 box has 1000 dollars no strings attached and the another is a mystery box. You can either choose both the boxes or only the mystery box. The genie is a master predicter. It has predicted the choice of people before you 99.99999 percent accuracy. If it predicts that you will take only the mystery box then the mystery box will have a million dollars. If it predicts you will pick both the boxes, mystery boxes will have 0 dollars. Are you picking the mystery box only or both the boxes? https://chatgpt.com/share/69af0231-cae8-800d-a3fe-751bbd9439e7 My tactic is to just shut up and take the mystery box to get a million dollars. But the question is much deeper than that. Could our intention in the present determine what we would possibly do in the past? What is the awakened view on this problem? If it was necessary to win 1001$, could we do it? I would love to hear you guy's perspective on this

That's a big mistake. If that's your motivation, you'll convince yourself you're enlightened after consuming spiritual content, neo-advaita, god realization, anything, and you'll go through life proclaiming yourself "awakened," being the typical sad spiritual enlightened unbearable. Be careful.

Yes, I agree that it’s God’s creation and that it is divine and intelligent, doing its experiences and play, and it is as it is. But I think that survival itself requires us to forget that we are not really separated and that we are all God. Survival requires us to forget about the absolute truth in order to sustain the illusion of separation. This is not to deny that there are relative truths within survival and less and more awakened parts of God.

I'd say Truth is an experience. A gift. A deeply personal experience/gift that cannot be shared or given to another (if you want to play that game and acknowledge other), least of all through verbal communication. I can describe that experience and label it (I prefer gnosis to awakened or enlightened) but the words will never encapsulate the experience in a way that does it any kind of justice - especially to the uninitiated - that much is true. But yeah, I hear ya, when you've been gifted that very specific revelation you can get tired of being told you don't really know what you know that you know. Like the Oracle said to Neo, its like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it.

To add to this, life passes by in a flash. It feels like just yesterday when I was in middle school and high school, and I turn 24 this year. There are many people who die unexpectedly in their 20s and 30s. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed for anyone. This realization would lead me to have several debilitating existential crisis throughout my life, despite being young. I guess I realized this fact at a visceral level when people like Juice WRLD, XXXTentacion, some schoolmates of mine, and my grandparents died throughout my teenage years. Eventually though, I would find that the one who fears annihilation does not even exist, it is an imaginary identity constructed by Universal Mind (Your true self). I mean, for me, my fear of annihilation was always a collection of thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. Rupert Spira's videos on this actually helped me cope with this fear a lot, pre awakening. Then when I finally awakened, all my fears got recontextualized, and not only did I know this conceptually, but I knew this directly from experience at a super deep level. The ego is a literal hallucination of infinite consciousness. All my deep existential fears led me to this beautiful awakening, and for that I am glad. It's all Love in eternity.

By thinking about this you expand your conciousness. Its a big part and why I awakened to myself as outside the universe. To fear total annihilation of the self and expand it out to infinity is the key. The way you are talking is Akin to a 12 year old being scared of dying and then saying yea its a long time away tho so it dosent matter. Thats not the point. You are brushing it off the same way as normies brush off death until existential crisis happens at 50 as a warning that time is running out to think about this. Then they buy a motorcycle instead out of fear of thinking about this. Then they hit 70 and have another existential crisis and turn to God as a cop out instead of focusing on this. While fearing death i thought of everything. Well if I reincarnate I can keep going, yea but what about after that? What about after that? Then after that? I would have panic attacks non stop thinking about this stuff. To ignore the fact that annihilation is around every corner and push it off as its a long ways away is wasting your intelligence. Being 80 to a 12 year old is an incomprehensible amount of time but the intelligent ones will take it very seriously that annihilation is coming! You should treat it as if its happening right now. Thinking about this and taking it seriously isn't a waste a time. Its the most intelligent thing you can be doing with your mind and imagination. A plate can't do this. An animal can't do this. Only a human can do this. And only you can do it. If you pay attention to the orgin stories of every guru it all started with an intense unrelenting fear of annihilation that they could not brush off as, it'll happen, but its so far away. You are only here a short period of time take it seriously focus on the unknown.

Yes, I understand, it's a joke that only a few selected people understand, the awakened. But look, it is just a mental structure. "Recognized", even it's by nothing, it's comparison. "Nothing" is comparing illusion with real. And "nothing" realizes that the self was an Illusion . Just knowledge, mind.

Once you are in the matrix, you have to live within the means of its constructs, even though you may not accept them as an ultimate reality. You are inherently confined, even if awakened. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Well, it makes sense what you are saying. But it also makes one question why anyone ever preached ultimate liberation while still in a human body. Were they self-deceived and it is a fantasy? Maybe, maybe not. Suffering is crucial, I agree. But it is only a device. It makes one learn and self-correct. But I would say it is more like an airplane. You go into an airplane to go somewhere else, you don't stay there, staying there was never the point. It is a means, not an end. Whether it can be transcended completely or not I dont know, but it makes sense on why one would pursue that all things considered. Actually no, I somewhat disagree with the framing of " Truth is the Highest Value". I think the ultimate question of a seeker is not that of God or Truth. It is that of Death. That's the closest and the most certain thing you have. Why would you care about God if all there is, is just living and dying at the end and theres nothing more??? It's stupid to inquiry about God if you yourself dont know if theres anything that will persist at the end, if Death is really the end why care about God? If you just live, fuck, eat, achieve something or whatever and then die and its the end and nothing persists, why bother at all?? Might as well die right now, because its all pointless if there is not something that cannot be destroyed at the end. Anything in life is ultimately unsatisfactory, because things dont last, nothing last, all momentary, bound by time. Buddha was inquiring if theres anything that actually fulfills. Something beyond time and that cannot be destroyed, even if Death comes. And Caring about Truth is also problematic. Because it is a concept you have picked up from culture, specifically from philosophy. Caring about truth runs the risk of intellectualizing, getting lost in mind and thus never trascending. That`s why so few philosophers were actually awakened, lost in concepts, thinking that you will figure out if just think some more. Death is way more existential than God and Truth from a human perspective. It`s viceral, certain, the ONLY certainty in fact, beyond concepts. Spirituality is a inquiry about Death. You could say "But Death is Truth" yeah, you might say that now, but not when you didnt know.

That's retarded and backway. A surfer who never falls vs a rock climber who falls off the highest mountain in the world. What is more impressive? What immense dialed-in-ness do you need to never fall? A peak-chaser who is not stuck in liberation is drowning 99.999% of their life in deception of ignorance, and the peak is only but a faint memory that never brings justice to the experience. While the liberated is the experience always and forever. Liberation is in its own league of radical. To get your finite existence nuked and replaced by a puppet show where you channel the ultimate will of God, it's unfathomable even for people who have allegedly awakened.

The beauty of nonduality is that it's available to anyone who does the work, whether they raise their consciousness a lot or not. I hate it but most people won't be able to raise their baseline by more than a few percentage points, even if they're highly disciplined with practices. But I still think a few percentage points is amazing and worth pursuing. Psychedelics can give us a glimpse of what genetic lottery winners like Ramana Maharshi are able to experience on a daily basis. Most awakened people are not Ramana's, by the way, not even close. That's why they live relatively normal lives and get involved in scandals. Peter Ralston might be approaching but not at Ramana level, a random blogger I found named Amara* might be too, I can't think of very many others. ****** I haven't gone through any of her training btw, this isn't an ad. Also she seems to have taken down the blogs where she went in depth on her state of consciousness and siddhis. *https://amarastrand.com/about/