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One can only get it when it is realized that any separate identity is false and just a wrong arising thought/feeling/concept in Infinite Being/Reality/mindstream (like 1 + 1 = 3. Just not the case). For that to happen, the mindstream needs to conform to Absolute Reality of Infinite Being/Consciousness/Suchness. Among others, the most important ones are: Nondual: Boundless infinite "field" or better Reality of the visual field Infinite: Nothing could ever be outside of it (for example other perspectives/beings that YOU forget right now in real time, although they happen in True You). Everything can only be IT. Mere appearance/illusion: Every appearance of the "world" is just empty mere appearance, hovering like a non-solid hologram ("clear light", mere appearance-emptiness) in YOUR True Infinite Being. Eternal: The appearance in that Infinite field/Reality changes, but never THAT. That can't go anywhere else. And since IT is nothing (or better: Infinite Nothingness but with the potential for sentience if appearance arises in it, made of it) already, that Reality can't disappear (field is not so correct, since True Being is dimensionless... Its not 3D or 5D, but CONTAINS all possible dimensions, however many dimensions manifest (3/4/5/n/alien/totally other/n+1). Lets call it Infinite Vastness) All ignorant/wrong concept/believes/feelings of being anything separate (mind, body, soul, whatever) seen through: are just a thought/feeling-arising-bundle arising within IT, and ignorantly believed because ones speed of awareness is too slow to cut off these illusions in real-time. Only then does one have a chance of realizing True Solipsism (although I don't like that as teaching tool, because its incomprehensible until it happens, and lead nowhere as practice), or True Enlightenment. One without a second. So its fruitless to think with a separate-self still well and alive about Solipsism, that will never "go anywhere". It is impossible. But getting the Mindstream to conform the the enlightened Mindstream (points above) so that this realization can happen, that can be done, and that is worth the effort. Then the realization can happen. My preferred and recommended tools are Mahamudra PotgW, Yoga of One Taste (for the Nondual points above, 1-4), and Yoga of Nonmeditation (to fully establish point 5, and to get rid of the meditator still "running" points 1-4. Selling Water by the River PS: When Wilber wrote No Boundary, he didn't have Full Enlightenment, just some Kenshos. But not full impersonal Enlightenment, according to his own statements. His true impersonal Enlightenment (or death of the illusion of the separate-self) happened while writing Sex, Ecology, Spirituality, and how that went down is described in One Taste. "Realizing that the separate self (of any kind) doesn't exist (beyond a mere appearing illusion), did never exist, and will or could never exist". PSPS: Problems start when remnants of the separate self hijack the identity of/as "Absolute Solipsism". That would be something like the Infinity of Gods(-Egos). Does that sound like One Being, Solipsism? Or more like an Infinity of God-Egos inflated and projected on Infinity.The true intuition that there is only One Reality/Being, but that not cleansed from separate-self/ego/personality-elements. Hence, no stable nondual realization in daily life with the 5 points of Awakened Nondual Awareness above accessible anytime. That confusion can be similiar to the stage of Yoga of One Taste, which already brings Nondual States (like psychedelics also do), but Enlightenment doesn't happen there yet, because the remaining separate-self is not cleansed via the Yoga of Nonmeditation. It is not truly impersonal yet. True Being is utterly utterly impersonal (hence, IT fits into all individual mindstreams), and yet contains the personality and its individual traits arising within IT. And that is what you truly are. So nothing than an illusion of being something else than THAT is lost.

Here you can find my summary of Pointing out the Great Way/Mahamudra, based on how it developed for me, written in my own words based on my experiences/milestones: Which funnily developed pretty much like the book describes. So it was fascinating for me that the experiences developed very much in line how they were described for centuries in the Tibetan Mahamudra-tradition, delivered by a book of several hundred pages of descriptions. Talking about a sophisticated complex meditation system.... One of the main milestones, after which it continued developing, was the blue marked part below. That happened after around 10 years of meditation (which was not as efficient as possible (quite inefficient actually, that is why it took so long), since I didn't get a lot of stuff right straight away, and had no direct teacher). That milestone is where the awakened and nondual states starts to develop after some time. Afterwards I was hooked, and used all the other tools (like the always here timeless nature of the mind, its infinite and boundless and nondual nature, and finally its impersonal nature in stage 4) for developing Nonduality in Yoga of One Taste (stage 3 Mahamudra), and developing these nondual awakened states towards the pure impersonal and totally unseparated nature, conforming to the Reality of the enlightened Mindstream (stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation). Then Enlightenment can happen, but can't be forced. Enlightenment is an accident. Yoga of Nonmeditation makes very (!) accident-prone. On the path are I would say between 5-10 major cul-de-sacs or mistakes one can make, which can either be overcome with applying the right technique of Mahamudra/Dzogchen (or non-concentrative meditation), or with hardcore concentrative meditation (which works without all this sophisticated technique, but is as hard to pull off (discipline, hours on the pillow needed) as we probably all know. That is why we see more "Natural/ or enlightened-by-accident ones" and hardcore concentration meditation enlightened ones (Ingram, Yang, Burbea and the Theravada & Zen crew), but very few Mahamudra/Dzogchen enlightened ones, since that sophisticated system has not been planted fully in the West. I see its potential, and consider that (combined with psychedelics) as the future, since few people can actually pull of the natural style (by definition), or the hardcore concentrative meditation style. So lets see... And if that is not enough, here is some more of the Sales-by-the-River: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Pointing out the Great Way &author=Water by the River Bon Voyage, good luck, and if you have further questions let me know.

But millions don't practice Mahamudra. Never have. There are not many who practice under a competent teacher with good guidance material and a certain level of discipline & Karma. Also not in Tibet, which had a few million max-population in historical times. You would maybe be surprised what I would tell you in private on my perception of efficiency & sophistication of for example Zen or Theravada compared to Mahamudra. My bet is: The propagation of these efficient teachings (Mahamudra/Dzogchen and especially their translation in formats westerners can use) + psychedelics available + good & efficient teachers and teaching material available + billions of people potentially having access to that will yield some success rates during this century that have not been the case historically, and that will be quite a show. Just curious: Have you ever looked into the chapters Contemplation, Skill of Reckognition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation in Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown? I am sure if you dive into that with an open mind and a week of time, you will find it similarly fascinating as I did. It is hard to get it reading it once, I had to read it many times over several years while the practice progressed - but it is still fascinating.

I also believe using both is best and most efficient. At the final stages of meditation, one can dissolve these last and very subtle lenses. When taking for example the Mahamudra-system, which I consider as the most sophisticated system on the planet (together with Dzogchen), the Yoga of One Taste (advanced practice, 3rd stage in Mahamudra system) makes the visual field boundless, infinite and mere appearance/lucid. Basically the effect that many psychedelics have. And no, that is not yet Enlightenment. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=yoga of one taste&author=Water by the River The final lenses of deception/illusion are not yet dissolved at stage 3. But here we are already on very trippy terrain, visual field nondual, boundless and infinite and mere appearance. And now comes the kicker: stage 4, Nonmeditation Yoga automizes the techniques done at stage 3 in such a way that even the meditator can be dissolved. There is no longer a separate-anything doing anything, the meditation does itself. Awakening, or Awakened Awareness (nondual, boundless, infinite, groundless, and impersonal, or not only personal), does the meditation. As long as someone does the meditation, the illusion with the dream-character is still well and alive, even if its nondual and what not. A nondual dream. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River What happens at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga can no longer be fully described. But it can be understood what happens or happened once it happens. And it takes a loooong time at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga, at least for most, until crossing over to Enlightenment happens. No other. No you. Just Infinite Consciousness/Reality, an Infinite Ocean of Awareness, its essence forever unchanged. Eternal. Always having been the case. The former separate-self just an illusion. And until one gets the hundreds or thousands of hours (if one is not a prodigy) in these states to make it to the big bang, if one tries to do that with psychedelics, one has ones brain fried long before. And a God-complex on top if one doesn't start on the humble side from the beginning (which few do), since the ego projects itself already busily on the nondual infinite field, see stage 3. And if one has bad luck, ET comes along and gives a seductive smile... But that is another topic. And the limitations/problems of meditation practice: Getting to Nonduality, stage 3. Takes a looong time, and many things can be implemented incorrectly. Then, meditation practice NEVER leads to Nonduality,boundlessness-infnite and mere appearance. That happens to 98%+ of meditators, because the meditation techniques used are so inefficient that multiple thousand of hours of hardcore head-against-the-wall meditation would be needed... Few are made for that. Mahamudra on the other side can be used efficiently in daily life if done correctly. Without Mahamudra Pointing out the Great Way style I would have gotten nowhere, and even with that I read the book 15 times over 10 years to get it. To get a nondual state take enough shrooms et voila. To experience Infinity take some 5-MeO et voila. It prooves that its real. Most meditators without psychedelics give up before that. One knows if one does something correct with meditation if these psychedelic-induced awakenings happen from meditation. Hope I have answered all your questions. Selling Water by the River

Feels like coming home, doesn't it? Or like drowning in the River, killing "me" softly... Forgive me some comments, but here are some practices that helped me a lot at that stage to make that Nondual Awakening nice&stable: The only missing ingridients are letting these states of Infinite Nondual Awakend Awareness ripen (they ripen by themself since the illusion has become instable. The path starts showing itself to itself now). Yet, one can put a blow-torch (Nonmeditation-Yoga in Mahamudra for example, see below) on the remnants of the illusion, to evaporate them faster... At some point, the only illusion still arising is the "one" of the one realizing all of that ("realizing" Nonduality and mere imagined appearance and so on). Then, the Impersonal Infinite Totality can wake up to itself, exactly when the "one/personal individuality/being separate/former separate-self" is seen through as mere concept/persistant illusion, a bundle of ideas/concepts/I-thoughts/I-feelings, and never having been anything more than that - and then the illusion drops away, being replaced by the Infinite Vastness of True Being/Reality, realizing itself as it truly is. That happens when every thought/feeling/and appearance of the "outer" world is realized as mere appearance hovering in Infinite Nondual Vastness/Being/Nothingnes/Emptiness. Then IT can be realized. And realizing that despite the illusion of separation has been appearing (as illusion), THIS Infinite Being/Reality/Universal Mind has always been the case, despite being temporarily been covered by coulds of separation-illusion/ignorance. There are teachings for speeding up that process (ripening from Nonduality (Yoga of One Taste in Mahamudra) with remnants of a separate-self to true impersonal Infinite Being/Reality (Nonmeditation Yoga in Mahamudra). I found these very helpful. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation yoga&author=Water by the River Pretty sold out by the River

Long enough time in that state you are training in will open the window for the shift towards Realization. You already perceive the facets of the elephant quite clearly and unmistakenly (Infinite, no concepts, Reality itself, unmistakenly,...). Long enough burning of all remnants of the separate self/ego-clouds in clear brazing Sun of your Empty Pure Impersonal Infinite Nature will clear the last clouds away. And when "you" rest in that and need to do nothing (because who would do it) to maintain these Awakened Impersonal Infinite Nondual Awakened States of Awareness, then suddenly it can become totally clear. The last remnants of the separate self are very very subtle, way more subtle than concepts or I-feelings. They need to get seen as object and transcended/cut off again and again. Its like learning a high-speed search and reckognition task of not looking through these filters/lenses/centers, but seeing them moving in True You. When its pure enough, the shift will happen. When you have gone this path, you know and have learned how to cut off/transcend/let go of all these clouds, all filters of the separate self. That is why the realization is accessible sobre later. You know (automatically) how to produce nondual awakened states but cutting off the filters. What can help at that stage is for example the practices of the Mahamudra-System stage 3, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste= Nondual), and 4. Stage of Nonmeditation (Where any doing/doer/Activity is and be dropped and the nondual awakened state can still be maintained. In this stage 4 the mind continuum ripens so that the big shift towards Enlightenment can happen. Afterwards the access to the Infinite or Awakend Nondual Awareness is quite stable, depending on the practice done before. It is very lovely "there". Already when approaching it it is so blissfull in these nondual states. In that bliss the ego-contraction dies/dissolves, because it is clearly seen and felt as contraction in the head, unpleasant and making nonduality localized again. I have written quite a bit about the Mahamudra stages of Nonmeditation Yoga and Yoga of One Taste. Maybe you find that interesting: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="Yoga of One Taste"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy

Allow me some further musings on the topic. In stage 3 Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual), Nonduality starts showing up. But Nonduality is not Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, because one can be in nondual Unity and still think that one is an "enlightened person", or any other crappy concept or self-identity for that matter. The ripening of Nonduality goes from stage 3 Yoga of One Taste to stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. Nonmeditation, because the meditation has become so automized that the need for any separate-self agency feeling doing anything is no longer necessary and is discarded and also cut off. And then one is accident-prone to the possible accident of Enlightenment, Impersonal Infinite Consciousness realizing itself. At that stage, doing anything is just creating another cloud hiding the sun of ones true being, because doing anything would be another thougt/feeling-movement in Infinite Consciousness/Mind/Reality. And psychedelics are very nice for helping the whole process, and for exploring the Multiverse and other interesting stuff. But for transcending the last subtle separate-self-identity-arisings (subtle separate-self thoughts and feelings), and cutting off the sometimes arisings-non-bliss-feeling-bad-arisings (in other words: suffering) that are a part of the separate-self-package, I have yet to see one case (just a single one would be very interesting) where that has been done mainly on a stable basis/outcome in daily life with only psychedelics. That can be very well had with meditation practice. Meditation: Actually, from all I have seen, getting rid of all the clouds of the separate-self takes a long time in certain states (boundless, timeless infinite consciousness, nondual and the separate-self already nothing but a feeling of "individuality", some "nothing" watching the nondual totality), 100s of hours. Maybe 1000s. For most practitioners at least, including yours truly. On the stage 3 and 4 of the stages of Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation alone (and these are not boring or annoying sitting meditation hours by then, but blissful and wonderful hours in daily life in something called Post-Samadhi-Meditation (or off the pillow meditation) in the book). And in that 100s or 1000s of hours subtle separtate-self identities/arisings get spotted, seen (subject->object), transcended and cut off. And I can assure you, oh boy, these are sometimes really sneaky and subtle. When all of that is transcended, the sudden Deep Identity Shift/Understanding can happen. "Yes, there is nothing else than THAT, and "my" essence is that, and what "I" thought I was was just a movement/arising of thoughts/feelings/centers within THAT. My True Being is all of Reality. But nothing specific. No separate-anything. The whole enchilada without center and core". But its not a elaborated thinking. It is Infinite Consciousness UNDERSTANDING/REALIZING itself, and there is nothing else than THAT, never possibly could be. The understanding in thought-form gets elaborated LATER, after Infinite Consciousness/Reality has understood itself, the nature of the world and its own nature (nondual). Psychedelics: bring a lot and strong forms of the Awakened States (nondual, infinite, mere appearance, and a lot more). States that one would only get by meditation if already very empty, or the separate-self-arising (thought/feeling)flow already cut a lot. So the states are very awake/nondual/infinite, but the separate-self-arisings is still colouring the experience. Although they can also be very subtle/empty at that state. And that is my little theory that explains all phenomena and examples I have seen so far: There is just not enough time and deeply cut-off/transcended separate-self-arisings in psychedelic states to cause that deep Identity-Level Shift of Full Enlightenment. And often, and maybe even much more problematic than the point just mentioned, there is a lot of nonduality/Unity in psychedelic states but a lot of separate-self-feelings/identites/... still left. Not a pure and impersonal Nonduality/Unity, but rather a Unity loaded with not-so-impersonal-stuff. And that doesn't fully count as these 100s or 1000s hours mentioned above, because they may be not so flashy consciousness/awakened, but are already quite nondual/Unity and very very impersonal/empty/nearly-no-separate-self still left. Only last fragments, being dissolved as time goes on. Short form: Meditation: Unity/Nonduality/Awakened States only when very large parts of separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) are already gone/transcended Psychedelics: Lots of Unity/Nondual/Awakened States EVEN with separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) in large parts not seen trough, even with the help of the psychedelic. Full Enlightenment: And for the sudden Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment the separate-self-arisings/thoughts/feelings need to be ALL seen through/Transcended/cut off (which at the same time is also a huge boost of Nonduality/Awakenings, making the whole field an infinite nondual groundless mere appearance field hovering within ones timeless true always here Being, and Infinite Awareness Space with separate-self-center/Individuality fully gone. Just THIS). In Full Enlightenment, there is no agent left that is still believed, no center. So one IS Reality itself. And literally everything that could ever appear is a manifested/imagined arising/appearance, imagined by "the" Infinite Mind/Consciousness. And that "Mind", or Reality, dreams and is deluded until "It" realized there is only itself, watching itself, fooling and believing itself in endless appearances. If there is "someone", or arisings of a "you" that thinks "it" is enlightened: Welcome, that is another illusion-layer (as Leo correctly points out). It is maybe an Enlightenment (Nondual Unity with the Infinite Void), but not Full Enlightenment. And for the impersonal aspect: Sounds horrible, in practice its wonderful: One is this life "oneself", next life maybe life something else completely: Different personality, different body, Human, Alien, whatever. Impersonal Consciousness open up exactly that. Like dreaming being someone/something else at night. But the price of transcending this specific bodymind has to be paid. And since its only an illusion, only has some fear-defense-mechanism BEFORE the Gateless Gate of waking up to ones True Identity, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, or Reality itself. Water by the River

Let me try to answer your questions as brief as possible. That is challenging, because the Mahamudra system is technically very complex with many stages. I like to compare Zen/Theravada to cutting a tree with an axe, while Mahamudra is something like a forest harvester: The axe was available already in stone-age and worked, robust and slow. The forest harvester needs precise handling and thorough understanding & training, but is waaay faster. Anyway, lets try the impossible at least roughly. Here is my main thread of the explanation on Mahamudra in the Pointing out the Great Way style (Daniel Brown, 600 page book, around 200-300 pages on the juicy main-practice-stages of Mahamudra). To give you an idea/feeling (not really possible to do in brief, but I try): The description of two main steps: Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual) Lets start with Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition It is a "High-Speed-Search-Task into Nature of thoughts, into the "Unfindability/Emptiness" of thoughts. They evaporate when looking into their nature. The nature of every emerging thought/concept, emerging out of Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality): And the nature of thoughts is its unfindability: Thoughts have no location, they are "made"/essence out of Infinite Consciousness. Thoughts dissolve when looking into their nature (Aware Empty Infinite Consciousness). One can never "find" a thought. They dissolve when looking into their essence. They move within onself, and dissolve when looking into them And that process/phenomenon is used. and with that cutting off (=Trekchö), since its nature is empty Infinite Consciousness/Suchness. Consciousness literally stops the thought then. At one point when one is fast enough, one sees the order of emergence IN the Infinite Mind is Understanding or just some other cause Thought emergence (fully formed, fully emerging in mili-seconds, but not yet "elaborated-out" over several seconds) being elaborated out over a part of a second to several seconds) And step 3 doesn't happen then. It is cut off. THAT is was brings Awakened States (nondual, boundless, basically if done fast enough. The thought "capsules" start emerging faster and faster then, 10-20 thoughts capsules per second+, and at some point Awareness stays "on top" of even that. That is where the magic starts (Nonduality begins developing, and the mindstream can get silent, bliss starts flowing. A very discrete and "hard" psychological process). And that happens in the beginning phases still on the pillow, but can also happen very much in daily life when intensive thought activity is not necessary. Later, it becomes also possible with sophisticated intellectual/creative thinking, when Awareness has become strong enough to stay lucid THROUGH the thought-elaboration. No longer hypnotized, the creative/intellectual happening within oneself on auto-pilot. Awakened Awareness and its Infinite Intelligence tends to take over, the separate-self/ego gets out of the way. That makes it also much more effective, since the ego/separte-self tended to act as a filter. From this Awakenened Awareness all intelligence and creativity comes from anyway, that is why creativity is so highly valued and pleasurable. This Awakened Awareness is the source of bliss anyway.... So, then the next step described in this post (Stage 2, see link above, jumped due to the specific question of Leo for "daily" practice: Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste. One Taste = Nondual boundless consciousness. Getting that into daily life. When enough proficiency of creating lucid states with this High-Speed-Cutoff is generated, the Awareness/Lucidity doesn't get lost when thinking. It stays. And with it the Awakened States. And then daily life starts getting nondual, especially if no academic thinking is necessary (still large parts of the day). With academic style thinking/creative thinking, it takes more Lucidity/Training, but is doable. 2nd TOPIC OF THIS POST: God-Realization in your words, or "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." And this (Yoga of One Taste) brings us then to the "base camp of Full Enlightenment", the "jumping platform" where Full Enlightenment can happen (some of which main aspects you refer to with God Realization): Stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. I have written elsewhere about it, see link above. The Nondual Stages of Yoga of One Taste would get confirmed in other traditions (Zen for example) as Enlightenment/Satori/Kensho. But not Great/Full Enlightenment, or God-Realization in your wording. That is an "accident", for which Stage 3&4 make accident-prone. I agree with you that Emptiness/Void is neither God Realization nor Full Enlightenment, where also that "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality" is realized. I am starting more to understand why you emphasize that in your language/system of experience, and I agree on the importance of it. In Zen, there is a differentiation between just shallower Enlightenments (Kenshos, Satoris) into the empty nature of all appearance, or into emptiness. The separte-self can still be very alive then. The Full Enlightenment on the other side, the total dissolution of the separate-self, leaves one with exactly that realization: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." Although there is no more you, nor God, but Reality itself becoming consciousness OF itself IMAGINING itself as all there ever could be. This Enlightenment is probably between 10-50 less common than the real thing of Full Enlightenment. Probably that is why you are so annoyed with the large majority of Buddhist Enlightenments (either contemporarily claimed or described in literature). Let me give you four examples of that differentiation (I could give many more, but that would blast the post. Ok, I admit, its already blasted and way too long... forgive me). 1) Huang Po https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun "One Mind Huángbò's teaching centered on the concept of “mind” (Chinese: hsin), a central issue for Buddhism in China for the previous two centuries or more. He taught that mind cannot be sought by the mind. One of his most important sayings was “mind is the Buddha”. He said: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists [red by me]. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings.[8] He also said: To awaken suddenly to the fact that your own Mind is the Buddha [Nothing exists beside IT=God=Reality=True You], that there is nothing to be attained or a single action to be performed – this is the Supreme Way.[9]" 2) Yogachara school https://integrallife.com/toward-fourth-turning-buddhism/ "The very notion of the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form opened the door, as we briefly mentioned, to other even “stronger” versions of nonduality or (metaphoric!) Wholeness, one of the most prominent being the Yogachara, introduced by the half‑brothers Asanga (more of a brilliant innovator) and Vasubandhu (more of an acute synthesizer). Another name for their school—Vijnaptimatra—is usually translated as “Mind-only” or “Representation-only.” The point here is that the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form allowed some philosopher-sages to come up with other terms for the “Form” that was seamlessly conjoined with ultimate Emptiness or Shunyata, one of them being “Mind” itself. The idea was that “Mind” itself was the same as Emptiness—the Yogachara philosophers were adamant that they were talking about the same “unqualifiable” Emptiness that Nagarjuna was, but by also referring to it as “Mind” they were giving (some would say metaphorically, some would say absolutely) a type of compass that would help relate ultimate Emptiness to an everyday reality everybody was aware of (such as, namely, the Mind). The Zen saying, “The everyday mind, just that is the Tao (ultimate Truth)” is a good example of this type of Yogachara thinking. And it showed clearly how one could “bring everything to the path,” starting with your own, simple, everyday awareness. This opened so many other doors—especially Tantra and Vajrayana—that it is referred to as “The Third Turning of the Wheel of Dharma.” Buddhism has philosophically run a long way. Hinayana didn't even have the full Nondual Realization of Absolute Reality, Nagarjuna made Madyamaka (nothing can be said about Ultimate Reality). And where did it end? The philosophy all which pretty all sophisticated Tantric Buddhism system rely on? MIND-ONLY, Yogachara. We need to at least differentiate the 2500 year system of Buddhism into these development steps. If not, we are fighting with a "fossil-philosophy"... 3) The Supreme Source, one of the main texts of Dzogchen (quite close to the Mahamudra above, Brown uses Dzogchen and Mahamudra elements together): on which breathtaking beautiful absolute perpective you agreed: There is gold in Buddhism, Full Enlightenment, God Realization. And tools to make it stable in daily life. The later systems of Tantric Buddhism, but also Mahayana, have at their philosophic core Yogachara or Madhyamaka (I have written on that elsewhere). These two qualifications of Ultimate Reality are in line with what you call God Realization. 4) In Zen 3 pillars of Zen, Kapleau: Some quotes from that book: "ROSHI: With a first enlightenment the realization of oneness is usually shallow. Yet if one has genuinely perceived, even though dimly, and continues to practice devotedly for five or ten more years, this inner vision will expand in depth and magnitude as one’s character acquires flexibility and purity." The story of Bassui: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." "This way is no other than the realization of your own Mind. Now what is this Mind? It is the true nature of all sentient beings, that which existed before our parents were born and hence before our own birth, and which presently exists, unchangeable and eternal. So it is called one’s Face before one’s parents were born. This Mind is intrinsically pure. When we are born it is not newly created, and when we die it does not perish. It has no distinction of male or female, nor has it any coloration of good or bad. It cannot be compared with anything, so it is called Buddha-nature. Yet countless thoughts issue from this Selfnature as waves arise in the ocean or as images are reflected in a mirror. To realize your own Mind you must first of all look into the source from which thoughts flow And: Realization Emptiness, or Void, IS NOT YET FULL ENLIGHTENMENT: "In this propitious state deepen and deepen the yearning, tirelessly, to the extreme. When the profound questioning penetrates to the very bottom, and that bottom is broken open, not the slightest doubt will remain that your own Mind is itself Buddha, the Void-universe. There will then be no anxiety about life or death, no truth to search for. In a dream you may stray and lose your way home. You ask someone to show you how to return or you pray to God or Buddhas to help you, but still you can’t get home. Once you rouse yourself from your dream-state, however, you find that you are in your own bed and realize that the only way you could have gotten home was to awaken yourself. This [kind of spiritual awakening] is called “return to the origin” or “rebirth in paradise.” It is the kind of inner realization that can be achieved with some training. Virtually all who like zazen and make an effort in practice, be they laypeople or monks, can experience to this degree. But even such [partial] awakening cannot be attained except through the practice of zazen. You would be making a serious error, however, were you to assume that this was true enlightenment in which there is no doubt about the nature of reality. You would be like one who having found copper gives up the desire for gold." Or: Not yet Full Enlightenment-Realization. "But even now repeatedly cast off what has been realized, turning back to the subject that realizes, that is, to the root bottom, and resolutely go on. Your Self-nature will then grow brighter and more transparent as your delusive feelings perish, like a gem gaining luster under repeated polishing, until at last it positively illumines the entire universe [infinite nondual mere appearance boundlessness of ones nondual limitless being then]." "You must understand that anything appearing in your consciousness or seen by your eyes is an illusion [imagined], of no enduring reality. Hence you should neither fear nor be fascinated by such phenomena. If you keep your mind as empty as space, unstained by extraneous matters, no evil spirits can disturb you even on your deathbed. While engaged in zazen, however, keep none of this counsel in mind. You must only become the question “What is this Mind?” or “What is it that hears these sounds?” When you realize this Mind you will know that it is the very source of all Buddhas and sentient beings. And that ends in Full Enlightenment: "keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present [they all have been expressions of this Infinite Mind of yours, of the only Reality there is or could be, dreaming up all these worlds]." There is nothing else than: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." And that becomes stable in daily life when there is no longer a separate-self, but only Reality. God. True Nature. Whatever one wants to call "It" then... And that Ultimate Reality is Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. "It" is both nothing/impersonal, but also everything there could be imagined. It is Reality itself. The True Core of each being. As long as something of a remaining separate-self projected on it, its not stable in daily life. The remains of that separate-self will also "colour" all higher insights/realizations. Bliss doesn't flow yet full time, so the suffering will make the being continue and refine anything that is not conforming to this Ultimate Reality, ones True being. Or according to Huang Po, The One [Infinite] Mind that dreams or imagines it all up all Reality. Water by the River PS: Ok, yours truly confesses: short is it not, the post.... But please don't hit me too hard, took some time to write, and I got plenty of other things to do also.

Yes. All there is is Suchness, or Consciousness. Nondual. "IT" is also the only consciousness "thing" that can perceive anything. Since there is only "itself" (all appearances, every world/dimension), It can only perceive "itself". Normally as an "other", not nondual. But that also means, since "it" is the only consciousness "thing" there is: "It" can only understand itself. There is nothing else. "Enlightenment is an accident. Practice makes accident prone.": We can call that "accident" of Enlightenment whatever we want: IT/Absolute is also infinitely intelligent, and an infinite network of perspectives/holons within Indras Net has to align/"approve"/whatever before ones perspective (the sentient being/you) understands/gets what "It" is ("Full Enlightenment"). There is nothing to be done at THAT point of practice, because any doing would be an arising/movement of thoughts/intentions in consciousness. An a movement of thought/ego is FORM, an appearance, and arising, starting-moving-ending IN THAT/Consciousness/Reality/You. So that is not "It". At the right state, it can happen. That state needs to be cultivated normally over a longtime (practice makes accident-prone). From (for example a description from the Mahamudra-system, but that step-logic of practice is in most systems): Yoga of One Taste (=already nondual) cultivating that state in which the accident can happen, to Yoga of Nonmeditation, in which all activity is stopped, and the meditation does itself, keeping the field nondual, boundless, timeless, mere appearance. In that state the reckognition can happen. When God/The Absolute/The Totality of Indras Net "aligns" and "says yes", "you" get enlightened (the accident). At that point it is grace, Karma, brain chemistry, an act of all of Reality/the Universe/whatever one wants to call it. God/Being/Reality suddenly understanding itself in THAT perspective that is your mindstream of this life. And its impersonal, its not what you think what you are, but what you really are. And the fact that its impersonal is not bad at all... And if Absolute Reality "says": No. Then not today darling... Please more preparation for the "accident". Then, not today darling... Even with DMT. Ok, probably I have confused pretty much everybody with the twisted musings above, but maybe it is useful for some. Water by the River

Yes. I saw too much deep structure similiarties in all the spiritual traditions. That made sense to me. That was the only coherent explanation of the Kosmos for me. And the concept of Integral (Wilber) resonated deeply in me. So, a long time nothing happened where it could be said that meditation is more than just mindfulness training. Relaxing, interesting, a bit of bliss, but also in the beginning just one of the hardest and most annoying things one can try. Basic meditation training: Formal training on the pillow, mindfulness during daily life. Over quite some years. Stage 1 Mahamudra: Skill of Reckongition: And the thing with the increased thought-emerging-frequency was really the point where it took off. First, the ability to stay "on top" of the mindstream and cut it at will. Later, awakened states with nonduality followed. Stage 2/3: So then, a few years later, Nonduality followed. Before that point, it brought quite some bliss. But nothing where one could say: Yes, thats it. Don't need any external proof or convincing anymore. Nonduality changes that. It is evident. Stage 4: And then later, after some years letting these states develop and ripen, always here Ultimate Reality started dawning. 4 Mahamudra Main-stages: 0: Initial Concentrative Meditation as preaparation 1 stage: Skill of Reckognition: Cutting off the Thought Mindstream 2 stage: Yoga of Unelaboration: Always Here (never not here, timeless) Mind opens up 3: Yoga of One Taste: Nonduality 4: Yoga of Nonmeditation: Separate Self gets transcended. Pure Impersonal infinite Consciousness/Awareness without any separate-self flying around in it, itself being the world and all manifestation. That is the deep structure found in every meditation system. It is always in a deep structure similiar to that. And the tricky point, where most of the discussion happens here: Between 3 and 4. Psychedelics do bring one to a pretty empty nonduality. But not to that which stage 4 brings.... Not fully empty and impersonal. Not fully conforming to the enlightened mindstream. Water by the River

The deciding step for really getting the nondual awakened states flowing what is described below. Before that point in practice, no Nonduality, the visual field rock solid "material" and out there "external". No awakened state. To get there took quite some years. Could have been faster with good coaching, but didn't have that. Imagine it like this: Many years of meditation the mindful-way. Zero awakened state from that, not to even think about Nonduality at all. Didn't even know what that really is, despite reading about it. And then the bliss of these states, and nonduality opened up.... But that was also a process over several years. Cutting off the mindstream like this, or at least letting it fully transparent flow in oneself (that is not the usual mindfulness, its thought train appears like an object-flow in you), changes the energetic states of the whole system. It is an indirect path (but it can't be different): You influence the thought via ATTENTION (this is something you can guide/focus/control). You can't directly influence the Awakened State, how could you. You look into the thoughts, like described below. They dissolve then, their nature IS emptiness/consciousness. That done long enough brings the energetic shift to the awakened states. At least for me. And for thousands of others, see the Mahamudra-and Dzogchen practicelineages. Since more than one Millenia. And of course you can do that also! Every being can. The essence of each thought IS Consciousness/Emptiness. The separate-self IS these thoughts, and corresponding feelings. One can dissolve them all. And that clears the way. Reality it litereally desinged in such a way that: Separate Self = Clouding over= thought stream when that is not cut/Trekchö, the clouding mechanism starts: Reality is "out" there/external/duality, "solid/material, and limited (visual field bubble has an imagined border) not infinite. Switch off the separate self thought/feeling flow, the illusion-system ("out" there/external, "solid/material, and limited) gets switched off). That design of Reality makes complete sense: Samsara NEEDS this illusion (external/duality, solid, not infinite) The illusion can be dissolved by aligning to Reality (EMPTY IMPERSONAL JUST AWARENESS, NOT separate self-illusion).when that is practiced to make the mindstream conform to Reality, the illusion arisings (external/duality, solid, not infinite) fall away. Yoga of One Taste And in that nondual impersonal state of Infinite nondual mere appearance/lucid/not solid Infinite Consciousness, one can dissolve the final subtle illusion: Subtle Separateness of a Transparent witness, still coloured by Individuality and Separateness. Yoga of Nonmeditation. I can only highly recommend you to read the book, start the practice (similiar as described below) over a longer time period, and see what happens. Psychedelics only lift the veil mainly concerning this here (external/duality, solid, not infinite). But they don't dissolve the Illusion mechanism, the clouding over. Let's describe it in Engineering-language: The separate self is a positive feedback-loop: Uncut/Untranscended thought-stream including separate self I-thoughts/I-feelings triggers a system that cause these illusion arisings for the visual field: illusion arisings (external/duality, solid, not infinite). And also regular dissatisfaction/suffering, which make the ego work on its next salvation-project to bring experiences that bring bliss and relieve. The endless circle of suffering, N+1. and an enormously stable clouding-over illusion system of the separate self. Works in Billions of people, normally nobody wakes up just by chance. Some do, then its normally Karma or something the like. But extremely few. Cut that system, at some point the cutting/Treckchö becomes self sustaining: positive feedback loop. Because its lovely, brings bliss. And before that tilting point, it takes energy, because its unpleasant. A negative feedback-loop while meditating. Mayas Illusion-protection-mechanism. Must be there, else everybody would be meditating. Then, via keeping the mindstream cut/Trekchö/Transcended, another positive feedback loop sets in: The Endohuasca-system gets triggered. This then makes the visual field mere appearance/lucid/not solid/infinite, and especially duality/externality goes. Brown calles it Boundless Timeless Awake Awareness/Consciousness. And resting in that brings even way more bliss, which allows dissolving core elements/Traumas of the separate self, and staying lucid in daily life also with problems. In these states, the last remnants of the separation-illusion are dissolved... Try to think in "positive-feedback-loops", and tilting points/mountain-passes to reach, having climed in goes downhill or automatic/nice/blissful. and initial uphill-climbs to get to the first downhill-track after crossing the mountain pass height Willpower/Suffering while meditating until a certain point, then blissfull/downhill/automatic. Then, ego/Trauma/pain throws curve ball, and the current meditation/bliss fails. Further practice. Momentum building. Gradually dissolving of the separate self contraction and suffering, bliss gets stronger. Increasingly, more and more difficult life situation can be handled lucid. And the magic point is, after some years: Sitting somewhere on a park bench, the bliss flowing, and: realizing the freedom & fullness of not needing anything. Water by the River From this Link: For me, the crucial Point for really getting the meditation "really" off the pillow into daily life was getting to THAT here Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also... Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö". Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness. So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast. You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves. You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away. At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence. At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I don't control what thoughts emerge and if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second? good question... to be answered later. Outcome is: You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature. you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom. You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature. At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way. @UnbornTao Oh please hit me. Instead of watching some nice travel-documentation as planned on TV yours truly did again the overkill...

True. I think you would like the Mahamudra-system a lot. Yoga of One Taste is the Neti Neti path to its end, Yoga of Nonmeditation throws away each and any effort and reamaining separte-self doing anything: One just rests in nondual state that one knows very well then, and waits for the grace of crossing over. Gateless Gate. "One can do NOTHING here to cross over to Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment. Because that would be an act of a separate self. An effort. A movement of a separate self WANTING something, manipulating the mindstream, grasping for the understanding, doing something.... One can only automize the meditation/mindfullness, staying fully present, letting the Awakened Impersonal Awareness flow by itself, let IT do the meditation itself, get out of the way... Bringing out the full force of this Utterly Impersonal Awakened Awareness. Ones True Identity. And that is the last contra-intuitive trap: ONE CAN'T FORCE IT ("artifical activity"). Because forcing it would be a separate self arising doing it. One can try to force it (for example Koan-style), but then the Crossing Over normally happens in a moment of grace, of relaxation, when artificial activity is not present." Selling Water by the River

Awesome! Somebody doing the "real" work of transcending the "bugs" of the separate-self for real, not just taking a brief look behind the curtain Javfly33, please allow me some hijacking of this topic in my ususal brazen style. Taking it in daily life is where real freedom starts: When one is confident that this can be done on any thought-arising and self-concept. Because one knows it from experience, also when the real heavy shocks of life come visit... And the fullness/love comes when one has the same confidence of doing this in daily life "everywhere" "one" "goes", and one is able to a) just cut each thought/I-thought/I-feeling arising in oneself b) or not, because its useful (character). Then, the bliss and love of these Awakened Awareness states begin to flow, and it all gets nondual and later infinite. Want to know how that Empty Pure Infinite Impersonal Consciousness can feel like, today and 1000 years ago, when one goes fully "cutting" each and every arising? Try to feel his (Adi Da) internal continuum and emotional state. He doesn't flinch or react. Because there is nothing inside capturing attention, but his attention/focus has relaxed/dissolved and he IS the whole Infinite Field of the Opening of Reality. Once enlightened, one doesn't have to do this (one can act fully normal), but one can. And if one is not fully awake, one can't. Not this long, this empty. That is how Koans are answered and checked btw. When in that state, one can say Raspberry and pass. That is what the brain waves do then: And don't do the Adi Da show, way uncool.... With Adi Da, one can see how much one can f*** up , to quote Ken Wilber, even with Enlightenment. So better have some conditioning of the "cooler" variant ready before crossing over... makes a more happy lucid dream after the untimely early demisal of anything separate moving in oneself. And if one really needs the cult, the awakened states of the video above attract.... because its not mental mumbo jumbo, but every being can feel it. And one would be quite insane to not want these states too. I am just no aware of a better video on youtube showing that, that why I chose that guy, not because its a smart or cool way to unpack ones self-realization. So, it is like riding the wave of emerging thought/feeling-capsules, which emerge than with quite very high speed (20 different arisings per second+). When ones attention is fast enough, and oneself familiar enough with all separate-self-identity arisings/tricks, one can do that. But of course, to get there, one has to work through and transcend any core-identity or trauma that would normally hpynotize oneself, and capture ones attention. Because guess what Maya is going to throw at you? Just to keep you nice and deluded in the illusion? Some juicy core-identity, narcissism, self-grandiosity, or trauma of course... And after a certain time having that awareness ongoing in daily life, it all gets nice and comfy nondual. Then, the reamaining agent/separate self coordinating this meditation (a very murky transparent nothing, but contradictory, because it sometimes thinks it controls the thing, or is proud on that achievement, and what not. Roger Thisdell stage 4) at some point realizes that this riding the wave of the thought/feeling stream can be done automatically by Awakaned Awareness itself, and gets out of the way (stage 4 Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). And then it goes from Nondual to Full Empty Pure Impersonal Consciousness (for example Thistell stage 5, below), "everything" arising in it, including the remains of the functional character side, but this time doing its thing without a separate self getting in the way. Pure Impersonal Consciousness, or Infinite Awakened Awareness, can run the show all by itself, better than the old one ever could. And welcome home! And then Javfly33, maybe consider doing such a video as Adi Da, but in a cool style, without the cult Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: Critical Point for me concerning taking it into daily life, and staying on top of the wave of the mind-stream and its emerging thoughts, using the mindstream itself as meditation object (but not in a mindfulness way of being mindful OF these thoughts, but cutting them at will with high enough speed to catch them all or riding along with full awareness of the object-character of the arisinsg of the mindstream arising in me). Meditation training makes a) able to cut the thought/feeling by looking into it, and b) doing that fast enough. Power & Speed so to say. " Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also..."

Excellent. For me, the crucial Point for really getting the meditation "really" off the pillow into daily life was getting to THAT here Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also... Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö". Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness. So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast. You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves. You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away. At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence. At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I don't control what thoughts emerge and if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second? good question... to be answered later. Outcome is: You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature. you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom. You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature. At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way. Maybe that is interesting for some. Selling Water by the River

Actually, one normally needs to take the meditation off the meditation pillow into daily life, staying fully awake while the mindstream is doing its thing and is still on in daily life. Only this way, off the pillow and in daily life, one gets the momentum of 1000s of hours of meditation of transcending ones separate self (at least for normies and other not so gifted people, like yours truly) to make it to awakened nondual states. And these 1000s of hours when taken off the pillow into daily life are then really nice, no chore. The really MAGIC POINT when you manage to take the mindfulness of staying "on top" of the mindstream, cutting it off if you want to, and off the meditation pillow into living daily life from that. From there on, its downhill, and gets better and better... bliss and love starts flowing. To do that, one needs the right system that can do that (taking meditation off the pillow). Not all (actually quite few, including Mahamudra) have efficient methods for doing that. If they have methods for doing that at all. and a few 100 hours (I would guess in average) on the pillow to get to that point. If somebody says one doesn't need these several 1000 hours (because he/she didn't need that), that person could surely qualifies to coach others that also don't need these 1000s of hours... . And for sure, there are people that don't need these 1000s of hours. Although, probably not that many, considering how much is meditated, and few wake up... But how does one know how much transcendence/hours one needs to get the awakened states, before actually being there? And if a system that worked at less than 1000s hours necessary works on oneself? Right, one doesn't... Often most endearing are the folks that needed very little practice (or anything of practice at all) to wake up, or next to none meditation: Hey, won the lottery, great. But how many win the lottery? Sure one got a lottery-winner canidate as coachee? Hey you, are you one, will ya?? The minor nuiances of life... Also awesome and funny are some Zen/Theravada-systems and the like, that teach "bone-breaking" methods of boring meditation that lead nowhere without really Uber-human-willpower of enduring ones monkey-mind, boredom, and failing meditation and lacking lovely states.... Like in, Die on the pillow! Yes darling, but how about killing me softly with actually an efficient meditation system where I can see my progress, and actually start feeling better quite soon? And where I don't get beaten with the Keisaku if I actually ask a technical question on my meditation method that makes sense? For example here, here is description on these awakened nondual states: And below is a link to a short summary (considering the 600 pages of the book) of the Mahamudra-Path of Tibetan Buddhism using the Pointing Out the Great Way System/Book of Daniel Brown, with focus on Stage 3 "Yoga of One Taste" and Stage 4 "Nonmeditation Yoga", but also Stages 1 and 2 (the stuff done on the pillow to get to the magic point): And these states are your jumping board to get finally rid of the separate self, crossing over to Full Enlightenment, fully coming home, as also described in the link. Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra System. For example. Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: Did I ever tell I get royalties on every Pointing Out the Great Way book recommended being bought uhhhh, just kidding . Neither related nor affiliated, just read all the books from the lovely author (sadly departed, Daniel Brown was a real hero. Cardozzo: Enlightened Renaissance Man), and quite a lot other stuff on Mahamudra/Dzogchen, and much of what else lives&crawls out there... PS PS: And no, I am no monk- or monastery Aficionado, although I deeply respect this folk. Cardozza coined the term Enlightened Renaissance Man, which yours truy has shamelessly hijacked in his usual style elaborated on and recoined as politically nearly correct Renaissance-Man (male female diverse alien ... n+1 ) -Nondual-Realizer, and went on rambling about in:

Hi Davecraw, in the humble experience of yours truly, you can not rule out with logic if something else besides experience exists until certain Awakened States are realized that show the infinite and limitless nature of the Visual Field, and any other possible field/dimension (like the dimensionless opening/dimension in which subtle objects like thoughts arise). But: One can (and should) use logic to get to an agnostic level: NOTHING prooves that there is a material, external, self-existing world beyond the bubble of the visual field, beyond experiences. You can neither proove nor disproove that with logic. That is a fine point, because arguing WITH logic that only experience exists is one bridge too far. Can't be done. One would need to twist logic to proove that. Although certain very active gentlemens are giving it very extended tries at the moment. Prooving that only experience exists (and no self-existing external material world) can only be done with Awakened States that show the following properties of an Awakened Field of Awareness (below, the goal/outcome of Yoga of one Taste, stage 3 Mahamudra. One Taste = Nondual Union with the Infinite Field) any felt separation between "you" and the "external world" appearing in the visual field is vividly felt first as arising object of subject-object separation, a felt sensation, that then gradually disappears. Including all localization in the body (tension head, body-feelings that cause localization, and so on). Yoga of Illusory Body for example, there are discrete energetic practices to dissolve these contractions/localizations. Or just wait long enough in empty states.... so, union,"nondual" with the field. any "boundary" to anything limiting that visual field (or any other field) can only be an arising, an appearance. Not the boundless limitless infinite Nothingness. time, past and future is seen as mere concepts/ideas/arisings in the timeless Always Here Mind of Infinite Awakened Awareness/Infinite Consciousness. everything in the visual field is just appearance, "hovering" as pretty lucid display in mere Nothingness. -> mere apperance these states bring a lot of bliss and love It happens approximately in that order progressively with good meditation practice. Or, if you are lucky, all by itself (Karma,state). But then good luck telling anybody of the structure of the path to get there that one didn't even notice the path while one passed it, because they flew over it. Or: Ramana and all the other Wunderkinder/prodigies probably won't be able to tell you much details about the turns, wrong exits and scenic views on the road to Awakening, because they took the 747 to the destination. and the Zen and Theravada path tend also tend to not give a very detailed map (at least in the opinion of yours truly), but just a compass and say: go/meditate west, to the west is California & the Ocean. Mahamudra gives you a quite detailed map: Death Valley is here, you wanna go there, don't take the wrong exit, don't camp here, here are the gentlemen with bows&arrows, and so on... So, to get these states: (good efficient) meditation, or psychedelics. Then, counting together the awakenings above in bold letters, it becomes what is called in Mahamudra "boundless limitless timeless nondual loving Awakened Awareness". And THEN you can talk about "there is only experience, anywhere, everywhere", without needing to fool yourself with logic in the nature of your experience. And btw., that is not theory or wishful thinking, but my actual experience with a meditation system of Mahamudra (Tibetan Buddhism, "companion"-system of Dzogchen) described best in Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown , developing over quite some years. All of the above is the of and up to Yoga of One Taste (3. Stage Mahamdura). Ken Wilbers Diary Book has the titel "One Taste". The same One Taste of that practice, refering to it. One Taste: Daily Reflections on Integral Spirituality, Wilber. The outcome of Yoga of One Taste (3. Stage Mahamdura) gives one a shot (or many many, since many many are neede) to dissolve the last separate self-arisings remnants (the Yoga of Nonmeditation stage 4 Mahamudra), which then brings Full/Complete Enlightenment, in Leos terms God-Realization (although i find that term a bit bombastic, although technically precise if God is Ultimate EMPTY IMPERSONAL Infinite Reality) . Yoga of Nonmeditation dissolves the last remnants of a separate self moving in oneself/Infinite Reality, like awareness of being, awareness of self, any self-reflective arising of being anything. (hint: of= subject object, not full nondual. Still self-reflective thinking/identity creation). What remains is: Reality. The Totality. And zero separation, real Nonduality. Empty. Impersonal. Pure Infinite Consciousness. Staying as "always eternally here" Infinite Impersonal Nothingness. With Awareness as its essence. Yoga of Nonmeditation does this in that any meditation is so fully automized that there are no more separate self arisings doing the meditation to generate and stabilize the Awakened States of Yoga of One Taste, 3. Stage Mahamudra. Not that actually an illusion separate-self claims "Oh I am doing this nondual meditation so great". Would be a funny contradiction of Nothingness would be really pure impersonal Infinite Consciousness if something like that arises, hm? And that takes also a lot of time. Don't fry your brains too much trying to these maybe 500h-1000h+ with 5 MeO (depending of course on ones Karma/brain and body), because yours truly has never read/heard about a credible case where that has been done. Although they could exist. Volunteers for the fried brains, anybody? Joke: How do you spot a pioneer? Got a few fried brain cells arrows in the back. Just kidding. We do need that tested out. And how Psychedelic Paths combined with meditation systems above... Pure Mahamudra is too slow to have larger impact. Allthough still the best system (in the opinion of yours truly) of all of them, and then, good morning after waking up, game over, welcome home! And be nice to "enlighened persons", What is mostly being done with meditation and especially psychedelics, is dabbling around up to and around stage 3, Nonduality (Yoga of One Taste), with are more or less empty subject, up to a very empty witness already in union with then Nondual Infinite Field. "Having" Awakenings. With any kind of content: This World, Aliens, the management & staff running this Universe, other Dimensions, whatever ones heart delights in. An Infinity (literally) of stuff to explore... What is not so often talked about is the "suicide" of stage 4, Nonmeditation Yoga, Full Enlightenment. Getting fully Impersonal with transcending/killing each and every separate-self arising having all these lovely nondual experiences/awakenings. No Aliens required, but still possibly quite a bit scary for sure. But looks only scary from before the Gateless Gate. Any separate self arising (the enlightened or awake "person" having these awakenings, n+1) raising its ugly head, are seen as just more separate-self-contractions buzzing in Ones True Self. Another annoying little headache-bug to laugh about. Another moskito buzzing around in the Infinite Reality that one then realizes onself to be and ever having been, to squatt/Trekchö. One more contraction to let go and transcend. and one lucky day, one just wakes up. But death is death, transcendence is death, even if its only the death of an Illusion. And Maya needs her tools, like the Wizard of Oz, else everbody would just say bye bye to the game. [Disclaimer: In nearly all cases, real suicide is about the most stupid thing one can do. Back to square 1, more Karma added on top. Or how to continue the dream, dodging out ones Karma of this life, with additional Karma on top from hitting the reset-button. But no soul gets lost, just do 3rd grade again, with a headache-hangover from the last try. Finally, every soul graduates college. But some like school so much that they don't listen to most teachers, and do some classes over and over again]. So, have fun on the trip, don't fry your brains, keep your humor (Wilber, Transcendence restors humor), squatt all separate self bugs, and Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River Ken Wilber wrote: “TRANSCENDENCE RESTORES HUMOR. Spirit restores humor. Suddenly smiling returns. Too many representatives of too many movements – even many very good movements, such as feminism, environmentalism, meditation, spiritual studies – seem to lack humor altogether. In other words, they lack lightness, they lack a distance from themselves, a distance from the ego and its grim game of forcing others to conform to its contours... They should all trade two pounds of ego for one ounce of laughter”(Ken Wilber. 1999. One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber. December 7). PS: And for all other beings/perspectives of Indras Net, see: and if you don't already have an overkill, and better go for nice walk or so... Some more for the Aficionados of conceptual overkill: And now, really better go fishing or something... “frog pond plop”

I mean the ripening phase of for example Yoga of One Taste nor Nonmeditation-Yoga with resting in Ones True Being. It is not fully clear at that phase. After crossing over/waking up/Basis Enlightenment it is. I didn't write clearly in this paragraph you quoted. The speciality of Mahamudra in general, and Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation especially, is pointing out as much as possible from ones True Nature at each stage, and bringing forth the benefit of resting/training in these states. And going from meditation state induction to realization/understanding to further meditation state experience to realization, and so on. Like in a upwards-going spiral. Selling Water by the River

Yes. Don't know Angelo Dulio (but Ingram and Yangs descriptions). Full Enlightenment has the same deep structure always. Only one Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind. Without a second. But the way & style being talked about it later varies from perspective to perspective. And to be more precise: The ego (as technical term) or character continues doing its thing. The separate-self-arisings/elements gets understood/seen in real time (and in all its aspect) as illusions moving in oneself, and are transcended and normally cut off (Trekchö) as Illusion. Unnecessary. Awakaned Awareness takes over, and lives ones life much more efficient than the old biased separate-self ever could. Waaay more pleasant. "One" just gets out of the way. Like a lense of perception, normally with some kind of location/center, with I-feelings and I-thoughts. That drops. What remains is an Understanding/Realization of that which can never not be there, Reality itself. That is Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all appearance, including the visual field, is that. That Nothingness is infinite, since any boundary to anything else would be form, an imagined arising. and while there are Infinite Perspectives in Indras Net, non-dimensionally "hovering" or being manifested/imagined in Nothingness (out of which you normally forget all but "your" perspective (and call that your life), the Awareness of all of these perspectives can ever only be that Infinite Nothingness, which is also the essence/Suchness of every appearance. Deep Structures of the process towards Enlightenment. To get there, you need at least the following Awakenings (discrete "hard" STATES, induced by meditation, psychedelic, karma, ..., that one can not jump with just conceptual thinking/videos/whatever. That ends with one form of Solipsism or another, a cul-de-sac) the ego-mind becoming a fully transparent witness (Mahamudra. Yoga 1 & 2): Death/Transcendence of the ego/person. Outcome Transparent Witness. Not yet death/Transcendence of the Indviduality/last subtle separate selves. Nonduality with the visual field (Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3). Induced and boosted by the step above. the visual field becoming boundless/infinite (further ripening of One Taste Yoga): Infinite the Awakening that Consciousness is Nothingness, nothing that can ever be pointed to, and the Awakening that each and every appearance of the visual field IS Nothingness, its essence is Nothingness (further ripening of One Taste Yoga). Generalizing this awakening/understanding to any possible manifestation. the Awakening to this boundless infinite visual field/Consciousness being also timeless, eternal, never-not-here. Deathless alway-here-Mind. the "you" becoming nothing at all, no center, no lense, no feeling, no thought. Or all of that moving through you like the wind: Mahamudra, Yoga of Nonmeditation, stage 4. The visual field remains, but without you. Impersonal. That is a ripening process of Impersonality (similiar to the ripening of Nonduality in the Yoga of One Taste), which ends suddenly with waking up, or Full Enlightenment, crossing over to the Dharmakaya or whatever lingo floats ones boat. That is Full Enlightenment. Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. Fully Waking up to ones True Identity. The Awakenings of Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3, are already called Enlightenments, for example in Zen. That is a much more common Enlightenment than the real one, Basis Enlightenment. That is why for example Leo emphasizes in God Realization that True You/Reality/"God" (I am reluctant to use that word, not because it is technically incorrect, but because it can lead to a lot of Separate-Self-Boosting) imagines everything. That becomes fully clear with Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment, realizing the full identity of oneself and Reality. Infinite Nothingness manifesting/imagining the whole gig. Like in couldn't be different, nowhere and in no dimension/time/anything. Can't be. That was a longer musing than I expected. These are the Deep Structures of the process of Enlightenment. that I have found in ANY Enlightenment-Path-Description. (like in: a few hundreds of books later. You know, nutcase...). You can have that and do that with cessations and a concentrative meditation path, or Dzogchen/Mahamudra. One doesn't need cessations, as Ingram and Yang confirm. Both (and also Wilber) changed later to include Mahamudra/Dzogchen elements. That gave at least yours truly something to think about. Good book for Mahamudra: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. Many posts of yours truly on that also... And one little warning: Without the corresponding Awakening states, one will a) not understand (or get) Nonduality or Union with the (infinite) visual field by just conceptual description (for example of the one of yours truly above). No chance. But you can recognize when that starts to happen when you know the map of the path. You can know how to induce that with practice, and how to make out of a spark a forest fire b) not understand the full Impersonal nature of ones true being (Nothingness), the death and transcendence of the separate self. That is impossible before it fully happens. But one can get at least an idea when the ripening of that happens. When it fully happens, its clear. Unmistakenably so. Waking Up. So the "game"/path is to induce these states, via for example the practices described above. And then there is a cycle of meditation state->realization/understanding->boosting more meditation state (because it got more impersonal) -> more realization/understanding n+1. "Thinking" ones way to Oneness/God/ItsallIMAGINED and itSAULGOODMAN doesn't work, only leads to Ego/Separate-Self-Solipsism. The 5 aggregate frame is from the earliest phases of Buddhism. Buddhism tended to end at (and emphasize) causal states back in the day (like Nirvana/Cessation/Nothingness as state). That mostly got replaced (transcended and in included) with superior realizations later, Nondual in Ken Wilbers language (Nagarjuna, Madhyamaka). That basically means not loosing ones Identity as Nothingness being the whole Infinite Field (and the essence of that being Nothingness, not metaphorically but literally, as direct experience) as Nothingness. A nice statement from that stage is: - We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.- Kalu Rinpoche. That is a statement one doesn't normally here from the early Buddhism phases. There is only one Nothingness, but the states can be a bit different on however the Nothingness is approached. However one defines Cessation, Nirvana, Nirvikalpha, nirodha samapatti, its all in the class of Causal State experiences of Ken Wilber. Causal in the meaning of Source, Nothingness. Nice article on nirodha samapatti https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28 Yours truly would recommend forgetting the concept of Mahasamadhi. Cultural Baggage. Why should that happen? So much effort for the whole imagined/manifested show, and then its game over when one understand what one is? Doesn't happen in practice, and why should it? For the first time, one can play and celebrate manifestation without the fear and lack and cycle of suffering. That is the True Nondual Realization. It is not the scarcity and quite negative perspective of escaping suffering and reaching Nirvana that early Buddhism/Hinayana had. It is the full celebration of manifestation, full with Agape, and if done in an integral way and with intelligence just a beautiful dream. See Francis Lucille for example. He calls it life is a celebration then. It is. He has a very sane perspective on all of that. And please feel invited to review my archieve of posts for more details because yours truly is God, marvels all day at his own perfection, of course has madly fallen in LOVE with himself, and nobody else is awake, you are all dreaming, and only God can describe himself in the best way of all Multiverses possible since there are no others, and everbody else is wrong because or biased and so on and so on (put in the Solipsistic Ramblings of your preference n+1), and its all imagined anyway!!! Sorry, just kidding of course. If you like that channel, just ask and you will helped by various proponents of Absolute Solipsism and other funny concepts Selling Water by the River PS: Very necessary, after all this conceptual overkill of yours truly: Bassui: After having read the letter, drop it into the fire Much more true than all the stuff written above: “frog pond plop” Basho

Normal full-time business career, married but no kids, and a hobby also... I was a bookworm for a long time, reading hundreds of books, with a focus on meditation/spiritual systems. I wanted to find the most efficient ones there are. Considering what that brought into my life, I wasn't too unlucky doing that. It all can be done, though honestly I wouldn't be where I am at without the book that i shamelessly promote, "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown". You know, Selling Water by the River, and especially that book... . And other books from Mahamudra/Dzogchen also. It is a very efficient system, with limited need for sitting meditation if done correctly. I used and still use most of the day off the pillow for meditation/mindfulness practice, or just staying in my True Being. If no absolutely distracting mental work is necessary, one can use pretty much all day, even meetings and standard work to stay mindful in the sense of " Simultaneous Mind (nondual, 3. stage of Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste)" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind" (switching off the separate self, 4. stage of Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). That brings the momentum/time/hours in meditation that probably most of us need. To be honest, I had to read the book a lot of times (at least stages 1-4 Mahamudra, Skill of Reckongition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste, Nonmeditation Yoga). At one point, I had to wait several years to understand the Yoga of Unelaboration, which is really hard to understand. A cycle of read, try, read again, understand a bit more, read again, even more, meditate, get certain states, read again, misunderstand, read again, understand, and so on.... But with progress and increasing meditation experience one can get what is described, and "go upwards in circles" of meditation experience -> understanding/realization -> reading more, understanding more of the system -> meditation exerpience -> understanding/realization and so on, n+1. Yes. In essence, one gets love from others, and self-esteem (aka validation with concepts), and safety/security. Sure, at a certain stage of development one could go into the desert when the flow of love/bliss from ones True Core is fully on (It is a nice indicator to check how transcended the separate self really is). But to live a healthy and integrated life, why not take the love, validation of self-esteem from "others" on top? It also provides a good calibration to live a healthy, integrated and balanced relative life in society. Doing the desert thing at some point is rather easy... Business Meetings is where the challenge is , Death by a-bit-less-intelligent-than-can-be-Powerpoint-presentations and meetings and so on... Still working on that, and, admittingly, having fun while doing so... Even the more or less Awake Ones live a more healthy and integrated life when integrating in a healthy way in society, or at least trying to. One can do the Ramana-thing of walking off into the wildness and forget eating a little bit. But why should one do it? If one has taken at least a little bit of compassion training/Boddhisattva-vow/whatever, one probably feels better living an integrated and wholesome life in society. Selling Water by the River

Hi Ayham, I remember that very well. Facing everything the separate-self can throw at you head on.... And it can throw a lot... Maya is not letting one off the hook easily... The Game-Changer for me was the book "Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". At least for me personally, 95% of the meditation system out there would have never worked for me. They would have been too unpleasant, or needing more much willpower. Or I would have get stuck in the several traps there are, where ones practice can "bottom out", and lead nowhere.... So I can not highly enough express my gratitude for the heroic pioneering effort of Daniel Brown translating all these books, and getting the (in my opinion) most sophisticated meditation system of the planet to the West. It has been practiced and refined for hundreds of years, developed further, elaborated in hundreds of Tibetan Books, producing a steady stream if deeply enlightened beings. It achieves a precision of technical vocabulary in the stage decriptions of evolving meditation, meditation experiences, resulting understandings and insights about ones mindstream and Reality emerging at different stages like nothing I have ever seen, and I studied more or less all major meditation systems, reading a few hundreds of books. The book is several hundreds of pages. It lead to me awe and deep respect of the Mahamudra-System when realizing at certain stages that I just had experienced the exact same flow of meditation experiences and understandings/insights than Tibetan meditators hundreds of years ago. Of course I can't summarize a few hundred pages of the book with the musings below. But I try to give a first taste of the system, with some personal experiences with it, and how it all developed for me, just to show off how great and oh so wonderful I am . No, just kidding... Because I would have loved to have had something like a"user experience" with certain meditation systems like that 15 years ago, to get a feeling for a certain path, and the experiences others are having with it. Concentrative Meditation: I would recommend starting with concentrative meditation, the Elephant Path (all Tibetan schools use it). There are several stages of concentrative meditation that must be mastered, and tools learned doing it. They are very well described in Pointing out the Great Way, and "The Elephant Path: Attention Development and Training in Children and Adolescents", in the chapter of Daniel Brown. Here is explicitely stated what one learnes while learning concentrative meditation. By the way, that system is in my humble oinion more sophisticated than Zen or Vipassana, because it includes techniques like easing up and intensifying. That is essential for making it efficient, and these techniques are just not there in Vipassana and Zen. These aspects (easing up and intensifying) one learns there by conincidence, or not at all. In the beginning, you don't stay long on the meditation object (breath, stone, candle, not so important), but just catch yourself when you have wandered off, your monkey mind taking you on a ride and elaborating something else. Now: Don't put negative reaction/feedback on that, but move attention/focus back. You can only control focus/attention, you can't force what thoughts emerge. So meditation is always moving attention back from wandering off, and the more you do that, the more pliant the mind becomes: Less wandering off, and if wandered off much faster to move it back. And when that goes quite well with a little bit less wandering off or loosing attention. Then, when its more automatic, you "ease up", which means you use less energy and focus, and see if you can stay on the object. If yes, good: Ease Up. Easing Up brings more clarity to what else goes on in the mindstream. Which lets you notice more of the subtler arisings of the mindstream emerging. When you drift off more than, then intensify: Inhale strongly, increase focus, energize. And see then if you stay more on the object. If you do, ease up. Find the optimum energy balance you need to stay on the object. One balances easing up and intensifying then.... Then your clarity will increase, your energy will become nice, joy can start to arise. And then you do that for a few months, a year.... Meditation Experiences of Clarity, Lucidity, Bliss and Non-conceptuality (silent mind) can occur, but also go again. They are just experiences passing in you. This way, you train your focus and make your mind pliant. When you can stay on the objects for a few minutes without totally getting lost in elaborated thoughts, and keep some focus on the object while wandering off in thought a bit, you have partial staying.... at some point you have pretty good staying on the object for a few minutes. Meditation without an object: Then comes a big change, that you can start doing then: Change to the Mindstream of thoughts itself as meditation object. And try to stay mindful of the mind watching that mindstream. If you can keep doing that (which takes a long time), you can start taking the meditation into daily life. Investigating the Nature of thoughts: See Pointing Out the Great Way for that. Thoughts are no different than consciousness, which is empty/nothing, yet has clarity/awareness, so its not a nothing at all. If you look into a thought, you don't find it, it disappears. Is cut off. One can never see or find a thought. Looking into a thought, an experience of un-findability arises. Empty, nothing specific. But with clear alert awareness of consciousness. Empty and aware. Nothingness, yet something that is not nothing. Nothingness. Emptiness. Consciousness. And more important: When really looking into the nature of a thought, it evaporates. Is cut off. Disappears. Reveals its nature of emptiness. With exactly that phenomenon is worked in the "Skill of Recognition", see below. Doesn't that effect appear as very useful to get thoughts and the mindstream under control? Of course! That effect of the thought evaporating, revealing its nature as Nothingness/Consciousness when looking into it, and generalizing that oberservation and understanding on the whole mindstream and all events it contains and can contain. That is understanding the continuum of the mindstream. The nature of thoughts. You don't control the thoughts which arise, that is why you/the person is also empty, a concept. Because what are you, if you don't even control your thoughts, and what thoughts arise? After having mastered Concentrative meditation, and having understood (contemplation) the nature of thoughts as consciousness/awareness/emptiness/suchness/Nothingness, you can put that into practice: Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also... Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö". Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness. So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast. You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves. You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away. At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence. At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I don't control what thoughts emerge and if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second? good question... to be answered later. Outcome is: You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature. you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom. You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature. At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way. Yoga of Unelaboration (2. Yoga of Mahamudra-System) Here, you finish off with time. You open up the eternal always here mind. Past and future become deeply understood as imagined/manifested right here and now, not really existing. Only the eternal now exists. Not as idea, as concept, as understanding, but as felt and lived reality. Deeply realized. Always Here. Eternal. How ones True Being can be immortal/eternal/always here becomes a very real possibility here. Later on, the emerging possibility "of how that could work" become validated beyond any possible doubt. Pointing Out the Great Way: "From where does the first mind-moment [the thought-arising] arise? Then, where does it stay? Finally, where does it go when it stops? The "mind" in which all this is happening is Always Here. Always Here Mind. Time is not "out there", self-existing. You only notice time because of change, of emerging thoughts and appearances. time is a mere construct/concept. No change of appearances/thoughts, no time. "One" doesn't control the content of the emergent thoughts "Through dependent origination certain propensities [thought capsules with their full content already "inside" emerge] at the very subtle level ripen into subtle movements within the temporal mental continuum, which in turn become constructed into and elaborated as coarse-level thoughts [get elaborated into long thoughts that get told in awareness over several seconds] and appearances" dependend origination: "one" doesn't control which thoughts emerge. "The skilled meditator can view events transforming from very subtle propensities to specific subtle mind-moments and constructed coarse thoughts and appearances seeming to arise and pass in the temporal mental continuum through a process of dependent origination" Seeing and understanding the emergence of the thoughts (fully formed out with all their content, but not yet elaborated in the mindstream, emerging in the Always Here Mind), and seeing this in real-time because ones attention got fast enough, is a game-changer. That stage is very hard to fully understand in Pointing Out the Great Way. At least for me, it took me a long time. . I would have been faster with coaching.... Yoga of One Taste (3. Yoga of Mahamudra System) So here it gets nondual and mere appearance, floating in Nothingness. No more a solid and external/duality reality "out there" anymore. But an infinite limitless field of Infinite Consciousness, manifesting an appearing world of mere appearances arising in it. A loving blissful boundless timeless field of bright lucid Awakened Awareness. This is where probably (my pet-theory) the Endohuasca-System starts working. https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ The practice is basically taking the insights of stage 2 and putting them into practice, specifically also in daily everyday life. With that, one gets enough time and momentum in meditation to really make the difference, to get it nondual. To make all that with sitting meditation on the pillow, at least for me it would have been a full-time job. And I did a demanding career and some other stuff in the meantime also... The view taken all thoughts/mental events emerge in the Always Here Mind, or Simultaneous Mind (which means nondual). same with all world appearances. The essence of all thoughts is emptiness/consciousness, and the essence of all visual field appearances is also emptiness/appearance/consciousness. That is called the "One Taste" of every arising (thought or world-appearance). Nondual in other words. and being aware of the emerging high-speed stream of thoughts emerging already with full content, but getting elaborated in the seconds following, and cutting off most of the emergent thoughts by looking into their nature, which has been automized by this point enough clarity and mindfulness is generated that at some point The Visual Field/"world": Becomes mere appearance and infinite/limitless becomes mere appearance appearances 1) the world no longer feels "out-there". Everything arising just arises in oneself. 2) appearances loose their solidity. One can not tell if they are solid "objects" out there, or just appearances happening in the timeless Always-Here-Mind 3) At some point later, with a lot of meditation-mindfulness-momentum, the "inside" feeling as pure empty awareness, a very transparent witness, but not even that because the awareness is no longer separate: the visual field becomes really mere appearance. One looks at something, and its just appearance hovering in Nothingness. You feel into it, and its essence is the same as the indescripbable Nothingness behind ones head. luminous mere appearances, very similiar to trip-descriptions. the limit of the visual field, and the wondering of "what is behind it", become limitless or infinite there is "nothing" behind it. One just imagines a border/boundary of the visual field one imagines that something must be behind it (like 3D-Space continues". No, 3D-space is imagined in dimensionless Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. 3D-Space is not self-existing, dangling out there. That was a biggie for me, took a long time to get, and could have been much faster with coaching. Guess I am quite a visual person Time is gone. Timeless Everything can only happen here, and now Past is imagined here and now , future also here and now the "subject"/"me", the separate self Gestalt/arisings, feeling and being separate from the whole Reality, slowly gets transcended and dissolves, more and more aspects of the person/separate self are seen as arisings moving within oneself. finally, after a long path of transcending every identity/I-thought/I-feeling of the Ego/Body-Mind/character, it becomes a transparent witness, nothing but still something witnessing the visual field. At some point, One can't tell AT ALL what one is, nothing positive is left. I am not the body/person, anything. Only aware Emptiness. But somehow some murky Witness or something like that still there. One literally doesn't know what one is, besides the nondual field... One becomes the visual field of mere appearance, one is that in a nondual way. any sense of location or center slowly dissolves. One becomes the whole boundless timeless field of mere empty, groundless appearance. Sometimes lucid and shimmering, like mere appearance. Some traditions call that already Enlightenment, or Kensho/Satori/Awakening. And it is in some way. But Nonduality is not already Full or Great Enlightenment, where there is absolutely no doubt about ones nature, and the nature of reality. That can become clear like ice-cold water thrown in ones face. Nonduality can be very well experienced by a separate self, just try some psychedelics.... To reach Nonduality sobre without psychdelics, one already has to be quite empty or transcended the separate self, but not necessarily (and normally) fully. With psychedelics, you don't need to empty (or have transcended the separate self) at all. 5 MeO will do that for, even if you don't want. Not fully empty, not the last step (no traces of Individuality/transparent witness left, see above), but very very much. that brings us to the last stage, Stage 4 of the Mahamudra System, the Yoga of Nonmeditation. And here is where meditation, and the long time it enables in these very empty states of dissolving every last speck of individuality/last very subtle separate self arisings/last very subtle illusions, becomes paramount. Only this 4. stage enables the final crossing over to fully, without a doubt, knowing what Ones True Self, and Reality, really is. Without that, suffering, grasping for ever more Awakenings, and still being a bit "gaslighting-ability" of the finality of ones realization/awakening, continues. Yoga of Nonmeditation (4. Yoga of Mahamudra System) What is already the case, from stage 3 Yoga of One Taste: The visual field/world already arises in the Always Here Mind as mere groundless luminous appearance, with Nothingness as its essence in an infinite limitless field of Awareness Space in the timeless Always Here Mind so many ingredients of the True State of Things, ones True Identity as Boundless Changeless Timeless Reality are already in place. That is already very lovely, filled mostly with bliss. Like really really nice. But not fully the Unshakeable Unchanging Reality that one intuits to really be, with its Infinite Love, Peace and Bliss. Only one thing is still missing for conforming fully to the enlightened mindstream, and fully crossing over to it with the sudden recognition of ones True Identity, Reality itself, Absolute Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, Nothingness. and that is the last remants of the Empty/Transparent Witness, or what Brown calls artifical activity. The last remnants of individuality, of I-feeling, I-thoughts arising in oneself. The last aspects of being a bit separate from Reality itself, from being not fully empty/transcended. A very subtle transparent witness, already being nondual, identifying with an infinite nondual field. Bassui (Zen, in Three Pillars of Zen) calls this Awareness of Emptiness, or Awareness of Beingness. A very subtle feeling of still being aware of SOMETHING, even if that is infinite Nonduality. Not full and complete nonduality and oneness. Still a subtle (very subtle) separate self aware of the Totality. Not the Totality being fully aware of itself, like in perceptions perceiving themselves. One can do NOTHING here to cross over to Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment. Because that would be an act of a separate self. An effort. A movement of a separate self WANTING something, manipulating the mindstream, grasping for the understanding, doing something.... One can only automize the meditation/mindfullness, staying fully present, letting the Awakened Impersonal Awareness flow by itself, let IT do the meditation itself, get out of the way... Bringing out the full force of this Utterly Impersonal Awakened Awareness. Ones True Identity. And that is the last contra-intuitive trap: ONE CAN'T FORCE IT ("artifical activity"). Because forcing it would be a separate self arising doing it. One can try to force it (for example Koan-style), but then the Crossing Over normally happens in a moment of grace, of relaxation, when artificial activity is not present. And once the last very subtle remnants of the separate self are seen as moving within oneself, just changing and temporary arisings/movements consisting of I-thoughts and I-feelings, the last subtle lenses ("Individuality,separateness") are recognized and dropped/transcended/no longer believed and just cut off/let go/Trekchö-style. All and any center gone, no separate anything remaining anywhere, forcing its claws of suffering into the natural bliss of Enlightened Infinite Nondual Empty Reality itself, perceptions perceiving themselves, shimmering in Infinite Always here Nothingness, in Infinite Nondual Consciousness. The Universal Mind, Nothingness. Realizing that nothing is lost if the separate self illusion is realized and seen as that what it really is, and always was: Just appearances happening and moving within the Always Here True Self/Reality. All that is lost is an illusion, what is gained is Reality itself and its inherent bliss. And indeed welcome home, to a home you never left, on a journey that never really happened.... Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: By the way, that is not a nice theory and beautiful claims, but a path actually walked over many years (although because of lacking coaching and not being too smart sometimes from my side making it take longer than actually needed). But I am still very very thankful that I picked that path, and not 10-15 years face against the wall Zen-monastery Koan-style. That would have also maybe worked (but I don't know, that system has many pitfalls the Tibetans have identified and made maps for to avoid these), but would have been much less pleasant, at least for me. Would have felt like digging a hole with a shovel instead with a climatized excavator, doing most of the meditation in daily life instead of some hardcore-monastery-fulltime-environment. So I can understand all those that don't like meditation, because it is maybe the hardest thing one can actually do, depending on the system. Give this system a try! PSPS: Before one maybe starts thinking that nothing matters, and Karma is just an Illusion, since Individuality and everything else is an illusion anyways, and nothing matters, like ethics, common sense, Karma, compassion and so on: Be sure that reality will give you a crosscheck if that is really the case, or just a funny idea/concept. And then let's see if suffering hurts and grips, or is still just considered an Illusion. Compassion and Boddhichitta for all beings (which are nothing but the same One Reality without a second) actually is a pretty hard entrance criteria to any of these states decribed above. With honest and practiced compassion/ethics/Boddhichitta, one has the support from all of Infinite Reality on ones path. And how much intuition and intelligence emerges in ones mindstream is guided only by this One Infinitely Intelligent Reality without a second.

Please excuse the following musings from my side: Instead of saying Enlightenment is already the core of each being or each being is already enlightened (which is not incorrect in certain ways), let's try saying they all have Buddha-Nature. then lets define Enlightenment (just for the practicality of it) as the Realization/Understanding of ones Buddha-Nature/Reality, and the deep shift in Identity that comes with it. Some once said the Enlightenment is an accident. And practice (meditation, contemplation,psychedelics, ....) makes accident prone. That emphasizes that it can't be force by willpower (since an ego/separate self arisings would be that forcing, which prevent it), but one can set the right conditions for it to happen. The right conditions are for example described in detail in the Nonmeditation Yoga phase of Mahamudra in vast technical detail, for example outlined in "Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". After the Yoga of One Taste (training the so called simultaneous or nondual mind, in which nonduality with the appearances of the "external" world have is achieved), this stage follows. In the Yoga of Nonmeditation, one trains to get go/transcend/understand, disidentify,integrate of the last remains of the separate self arisings that prevent the final realization, or Great Enlightenment, Enlightenment into the Real Nature of Reality. These last subtle, very subtle feelings of Individuality (or being separate in a very very subtle way, like feeling one with the Totality, or a subtle "watching" or "understanding" the Totality/Reality) block the full realization. When everything ("external" world appearances and the last "internal" arisings of separate self, which then are the empty witness) is seen as just arising in Infinite Awareness/Consciousness/Reality, crossing over to Enlightenment can happen (but can't be forced, it is an "accident"). Quote from Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown "Basis Enlightenment [Basis=Reality. In Zen that would be Great or Final Enlightenment] : The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away. Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20). Tilopa says: "When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha" The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space." Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does."). Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali). Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day. All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation. But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so). which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth." It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver. If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended. That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do: Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature. That consists mainly of two parts: the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined. Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills. And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way. I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details. All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. All the best on your journey. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Mindset: Be a 2-year-old, like the gentleman below. And just look if its doable. And scare the adults And a Meditation Technique that allows you to carry the meditation as soon as possible (but not before) off the pillow, into daily life. For example "Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". Starting with the Yoga of One Taste, it can be done off the pillow, while working and in daily life. Realistically, only when you can use large parts of your life for meditation you can bring enough "momentum" to get visual field to become nondual and mere groundless appearance. But that can be done living a normal life with a normal job. At least my experience. Starting Yoga of One Taste (for example in the book above, Page 382, " Bringing Forth Awakened Wisdom by Cognition- and Perception-Simultaneousness"), you can take the mental continuum INCLUDING thoughts as "meditation-object", and still don't loose Mindfulness. Its an advanced technique, and needs previous concentration meditation and practice on the pillow. But if you can do it, you can use large parts of your day. Maybe not highly distracting conversations in the beginning, but most of the rest. (One Taste in the Yoga of One Taste means Nonduality. The visual field gets nondual if you do that long enough. The One Taste of all arisings thoughts/perceptions/exerpiences/world bubble). Take that book as your bibel (if you are so inclined ), practice, read it 5-10 times, because you need practice-experience to understand the more advanced parts. For me, it worked nicely. And some Psychedelics to get previews of what its all about.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Learn cutting off (or seeing them for what they are, as objects moving in you) your separate self arisings (thoughts and feelings) in your mindstream. They will get/arise faster and faster, and you can see them emerging out of consciousness as consciousness, and being elaborated in language afterwards. I had to read "Pointing out the Great Way," by Daniel Brown (chapters Skill of Reckognition and Yoga of Unelaboration) ten times plus to get it, and try a lot in implementing it. Pointing out the Great Way is a synthesis and summary of the Mahadmudra-System of Tibetan Buddhism. If you learn to cut off these mental arisings, at first they get faster and faster (Skill of Reckognition). That is some kind of protection mechanism of the separate self/Ignorance/Maya. Look into their nature, they arise out of empty and aware consciousness, they are not separate from consciousness, and they return to consciousness. But the tricks of the separate self mindstream arisings are limited, at some point you know all these separate self arisings (thoughts and feelings). The first shift comes when you can cut them all off and stay in the Awareness that you are (Skill of Reckognition). From that point onwards, bliss develops just from doing that. And later, it starts getting vast spaciousness and nondual. And you realize the Always-Here-Mind (Yoga of Unelaboration). That You/Mind/Reality doesn't come and go on time, but is always here, eternal and fundamental. And then you develop full Nonduality of the Visual Field as mere infinite appearance (Yoga of One Taste), and from there on fully "empty out" the separate self in Nonmeditation Yoga (Awakened Awareness being Reality itself). Up until this first shift (Skill of Reckognition, see above), meditation can be pleasant or unpleasant. After this shift, you generate your own happiness, on the pillow and off the pillow. In Mahamudra its called the three special states of bliss, clarity and nonconceptual stillness. And try some Psychedelics as preview for Nonduality/infinite Visual Field of mere appearance, and to empty out/transcend the separate self. Just don't expect that you have enough time in these states to empty or transcend that last remnants of the separate self (very subtle feelings of individuality/separtness watching some kind of infinity) fully. If it all gets transcend permanently, great and Namaste! But if you can't sustain that state sobre, maybe some separate self arisings still happen to cloud over the infinite mere appearance awareness-space that You are. All the best ( : Selling Water by the River

That is not my experience. At some point you take the practice off the pillow into daily life. There are techniques for doing that (for example the Mahamudra-practices described in Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown). Then, it would simply be rather unpleasant to not continue doing it. And the energetic shifts towards emptiness and nonduality continue and increase. I can imagine that falling back happens happens with something like only sitting-meditation concentration style or Koan-style (Zen, or Theravada-style). But I don't know, that is not the system I used mainly. At least according to my experience, it doesn't happen with something like the Yoga of One Taste of Mahamdura or the Yoga of Unelaboration/Skill of Recognition (Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). I don't see how that could not stick. And I don't think Genetics is the main part. I didn't have any great genetics, it took me around 15 years+, but only because I didn't get the efficient techniques at the beginning. If I would have been coached in the right way, it would have been a lot faster. Looking back, using the right techniques is so much key. If you don't, you can bang your head against the wall (or rather stare at it) for a looong time until something happens. You will not get somebody who failed at most stuff at life and without discipline there. But using the right meditation-techniques and diligence, and as soon as possible roll that out in daily life, then you will be doing fine. General understanding of the technique, diligence, and finding soon a way to make it pleasant. I believe that is key, at least it was for me. If you look for example at Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown, you have around 300-400 pages on these techniques. It is a very clear defined step-path, with many sub-techniques for each stage. The Tibetans have been doing that 1000 years, and it is in my opinion its the most sophisticated system on the planet. The Zen techniques (Koan and just sitting) look rather.... well, rudimentary compared to that. At least in my perspective. And the Theravada-techniques are not at that level of sophistication. Also just my perspective. If the meditation doesn't get pleasant after a certain time, in my opinion one is either not using the best techniques available, or is doing something wrong. Concerning the marvelous spiritual genetics topic: Here we are, in a forum in large parts based on Self-Help and quite a part of Self-Help on male-female dynamics, and there it is forbidden to blame looks, but with meditation we blame genetics. Without really knowing and having no statistics, Just because our meditation technique feels bad or boring (maybe the wrong technique, maybe there is some better stuff available?). I didn't have any special genetics for meditation, meditation was hard and not pleasant at the beginning, that is why I didn't do too much at the start. Then I stumbled (or rather read about all the different systems) over the right technique, and to this day I marvel on how infinitely much better that made my life. Today, Selling water by the River, Self Help Mindset Flavor! ( : sorry, just kidding. But I really mean all of the above. Never limit the belief in what you can achieve. Of course, don't be unkind to yourself and overload you, but never stop believing! Here the 2-Year-Old with nearly most of his skin burned who went flying Air Force Jets, including the fastest of them: How do you think that 2-year-old would have gone for meditation? Get blocked my limiting beliefs?