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The first bold "I" was a little bit too much, that is why it (mind) had to go (second bold marking, and below): and there the "I" went... "my mind still made a distinction". That is what "I"s and "minds" tend to do. Sneaky stuff... Everbody can make up their own mind what these bold markings mean... Here is Bassuis version of the same process/topic: "At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization [half-baked No-Self], but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning [killed/transcended the of the remaining subtle No-Self-Identity, resulting in True No Self, which is not a "No-Self" anymore but eternal infinite impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Reality] will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present." [brackets] by WbtR And instead of reading the musing-collection of WbtRs archive below, better enjoy the holiday season! https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=thisdell&author=Water by the River https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=impersonal&author=Water by the River Can not some AI make Water by the Rivers retirement final? Any charming AI reading along? With the greetings of the seasons... ... Selling Water by the River "form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness form. "is the supreme mantra which is able to relieve all suffering": Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha: Gone, Gone, Gone Way Beyond, Gone Way Way Beyond: Uh what a Realisation! https://www.till-gebel.com/post/heart-sutra-as-spiritual-development-project-daniel-p-brown

The most Genius ones for me in no particular order: Leo Gura, Angelo DiLulo, Bentinho Massaro, Josh ("So awake" yt channel), Suzanne Chang (Suzanne Nonduality), Roger Thisdell

Everything you wrote I can look at as true and compatible with what I wrote. Our views do not contradict. Thisdell calls it superposition view of enlightenment.

Very nice description. According to Ingram, Yang and Thisdell, enough of these will make the survival of any remaining separate-self-lenses quite challenging. That enormous "place" without time, space, anything at all, not even nothing, is always right here, right now. Eternally or timelessly so. It is not in time. Daniel Brown commented that Nagarjuna & company (the guys who sparked the Nondual Revolution in Buddhism, from early Buddhism and its cessation as summum bonum towards Mahayanas True Nonduality, or always right here Enlightenment/liberation, even when the visual field arises) said that the Dissolution/cessation experience presupposes time. Before cessation, after cessation. And time is a construct. That vastness/Infinite Reality/"place, non-place" is always right here. "Before" and "after" cessation arises "in" It.

A fabrication of what? Of the source? What source? God? Thisdell describes his realization when he meditate. where he arrives at an empty space that according to him is the source of all perception. Well, what if he's completely wrong? You can reach the absolute emptiness of the mind by meditating. and? The only thing it means is that you have stopped mental processes. Does this mean that you understand something? I would say no, since people who meditate a lot tend to think that everything is a creation of their mind, and that nothing exists outside of it. How they know that? One thing is to arrive to a point where you perceive yourself as existence, that is legitimate because you perceive what you are without content, and another very different is understanding what is the reality, how is it structure.

Emptiness is not to be understood as a noun but as an adjective of form. The purpose of insight into emptiness is not to reject form - it is to understand it's structure. It is to understand that it is fabricated by the source. Everything is a fabrication. And does not deny aliveness and fulness. When it comes to structure of reality Roger Thisdell describes it very well here: And back to the topic of the thread - > Cessation/Nibanna is when all fabrication, all fixations of the mind cease to be and the pure Awareness/Void/Mind is reavealed and you can not say anything about it because there is ZERO information there. Zero fabrication. No space, no time, no self, no god, no infinity. Zero information. And yet the subtlest YOU is that. It's when the God's computer stops computing anything. When the dreams stops being dreamed. It is beyond god realization.

Mostly. There are different versions of what Wilber calls Causal States. Cessation/Nirodha: Totally appearanceless "film-break" like cessation. Timeless/always here/Nothingness nature emphasized. Time needs appearance/objects/"movement"/change, no appearance/objects is timeless/always here. These states also clearly show that if nothing arises there is no self-consciousness. ( https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=pistol&author=Water by the River , thx Benthino for the water pistol). Pure Infinite Awareness/Being with the potential of sentience, but not self-consciousness. That comes later. Which is pretty much a shocker, since it shows that any form of self-consciousness ego/separate-self is a) arising/appearing b) temporary c) True YOU is always "there", existence itself. Even if nothing arises/appears. That empties out the remnants of the separate-self/ego as appearing/constructed and removes the remaining separate-self-identity pretty effectively when coming out of cessation. Nirodha is the big/longer brother of cessation. Causal states with awareness (Infinite (timeless) Darkness suffused with light): Then there are causal states that are infinite/timeless, but self-aware. For example what Tibetan called the Clear Light state (Tummo, Bardo, Near Death). For example something a Neurologist (who had an NDE) for example described as "Infinite Darkness suffused with light". These states can also be experienced passing from dreaming to causal states to dreaming to waking up. One can have these states also with psychedelics, see Chris Bache Diamonds from Heaven. Aware Deep Sleep: Then there is Deep Sleep as not loosing awareness (and hence timeless, no duration experienced) as described by Thisdell, above. Causal States eyes open. And then you have totally empty impersonal states with no separate self arising WHILE the visual field appears. These are also linked by some to Nirvikalpa since there is no separate-ego-anything left, its the totally impersonal Totality/Reality arising by Itself. That is why Ken Wilber called the total empty/flat-lining state (EEG) some kind of Nirvikalpa "eyes-open". These are the true nondual IMPERSONAL states of Enlightenment. Only when having passed these causal states is it truly nondual impersonal Enlightenment/Infinite Impersonal Being. Before that, it is a Unity with the Infinite Nondual Field, and the character/ego hijacking that experience and interpreting it. Very common with certain substances, and easily confused with the final outcome of the total transcendence of the ego/separate-self purified by the experience of these totally empty states (hey, "I" wasn't there, what am I really? For sure not that temporarily appearing character-gig, because that wasn't there. And what I really am has to be the case always, even if there is no self-consciousness or consciousness OF anything at all, aka cessation or deep unaware sleep. That paves the way to true impersonal Enlightenment, realizing ones identity truly is this Infinite Nothingness which can never be any arising/appearance at all. The Infinite Absolute Being/Reality beyond any expierence/arising, timeless and eternal). And the Awareness of that Infinite Reality/Being can also be kept alive if the character reappears, the EEG shows something again. But then, this character/personality has a similiar status as for example your car: It appears in your Infinite Being/visual field, you look "out from it" while driving, but most definitely you are not (only) your car, but the whole appearing show/Infinite Being/Infinite Existing, the screen and the appearing show. Wilber Nirvikalpa eyes open/eyes closed: But the term Nirvikalpa has been used for millenia, so you can for sure find cases where its used for cessation/Nirodha and eyes open causal impersonal states, deep sleep, and anything in between. What is more important is what these causal states really can do: Kill the ego/separate-self-arising-illusions for good, because they show that these are temporary arising illusion-clouds, nothing more. Not by having these a few times, aber after experiencing them often and coming out of them and seeing the ego reassemble itself in real-time often enough can even get the hardest ego-illusions to wonder about their "reality". See below. When training via concentration meditation, it is easier to reach Cessation than reaching True Nondual Enlightenment while the visual field still appears. Because the mechanism of the ego-cloud-separation-arisings is not yet fully transcended. The mere appearance character, the Infinite impersonal field, the eternal/timeless background-nature of True Being is not yet reached while the visual field is there/daily life. That comes later. Later developed forms of Buddhism (Zen, Mahayana, Tibetan Buddhism, aka Mahamudra/Dzogchen) directly aim for the Nondual Realization. They know cessation states and achieve them, but don't value these as ultimate goal. Which makes sense, because if one can enter Nirvana/Nirvikalpha on command, its nice then, and later on the still well and alive ego and its cycles of contraction/suffering kill all the oh so nice Nirvana again. But shutting the whole enchilada including the ego down in causal states is a very good tool. Not necessary, but very useful. These statements are in line with the statements and experiences of modern Theravada-teachers and realizers like Ingram, Yang, Burbea, Taft, Thisdell and so on. And that is why I prefer Mahamudra/Dzogchen (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). More on that below in the footnote 1. The relations of these states get clear once the timless Absolute Reality/Being is intuited as always here. Deep Sleep is so to say is always right here. Since what you really are is always right here, as it is in deep sleep. Infinite eternal Consciousness/Being which is totally empty and impersonal if no separate-self illusion arises. The tree watching itself, fully aware of its temporaray/passing/illusory nature. And that which is always the case, eternally so, True Being, fully understands itself then. Because there exists nothing else that could understand itself besides THIS of which nothing can be said, only pointed towards. So what is it that reads these words right here, right now? What is IT/You truly? Starting out to write a short answer answer, ending up with a Filibustero. Oh well, maybe its helpful for some. Selling Causal States as the final coup de grace for the separate self-character-gig/ego by The River Ok, it had to be coming: WtbtR now with footnotes. Guess not for the faint of hearted. Footnote 1: The original "Buddhas" Enlightenment-doctrine was Cessation/Causal-based, not Full Nondual (impersonal) Enlightenment in daily life. The original Buddhas Enlightenment was Cessation/Causal-based (Nirvana-based, "Nirvana separate from Samsara"). Which is still a conditioned state, bringing a lot of liberation from grasping, but not fully and in daily life. Separate-Self/Ego not fully transcended/dead in daily life. The breakthrough to True (impersonal) Nondual Realization in official doctrine came later with Nagarjuna and Madhymaka/Middle Path: True Nondual impersonal Enlightenment which could be sustained in daily life/with visual field. And while Madhyamaka tended to not say anything at all about the Absolute (neti neti, no concepts can be applied for the Absolute, which technically is correct), later forms of Buddhisms like Yogachara said that (in truly enlightened impersonal nondual states) Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Being IS an expression of the true state of things, and everything appearing is mere appearance (or "imagined"). See for example "Consciousness only school", for example Huang Po's Universal Mind, or the (very humble) Supreme Source "I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe". God-Realization (TM) approved. Forms of Buddhism stemming from the original buddhist teachings (causal teachings, sometimes called Hinayana school, which doesn't exist anymore), like for example Theravada/Thai Buddhism Forest Tradition (and Ingram/Yang/Burbea/Taft) mainly trace themselves from these forms (although all are adding some form of Dzogchen and similiar stuff), don't stem from the the Mahayana Revolution of Middle Way/Madhyamaka/Nagarjuna), and YET end up at Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation. And for sure in the original Buddhism some realized Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation, but that didn't find its way into the official doctrine until much later. And that (besides that the original Buddha probably didn't exist because its the same story Jainism tells about its founder) makes me smile when there "Buddhism"-trashing. Its like trashing "religion". Which kind of religion? Polytheism? Ancestor-cult? Monotheism? Polytheism? Who cares, lets trash the rodents... So, now WbtR made it: Neither "Buddhist" like him anymore, nor the no-rodent crowd. Guess its "Viel Feind, viel Ehr!". Something we Germans are quite talented in. Oh well...

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/let-s-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/throwing-my-hat-in-the-jhana-ring and some more stuff from Roger Thisdell: https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/maintaining-awareness-during-deep-sleep-how-to and: Cessation is a large focus of Theravada/Early Buddhism, helping on the path to Enligthenment. But it is not (yet) Full Enlightenment, see for example modern voices of Theravada like Ingram (Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha)/Frank Yang/Thisdell.They state the same. In Mahayana Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana, this dissolution/cessation experience is considered valueable, but not more. Not the final goal. Experiencing Absolute Reality/Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE visual appearances and the mindstream arises as Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality is considered the Final Enlightenment. Because Ultimate Reality has to be constant, always right here. If its not accessible, clouds of separation are still arising which are not seen through. Cessation= Absolute Reality with no arising/appearance/anything at all, hence timeless, but also not self-consciousness (since that is an arising too). Helps seeing the illusion/separation-layers arising on the "reboot" while getting out of the cessation/Pure Nothingness, but does not necessarily destroy all the clouds causing duality. Normally it doesn't do that, that is why it takes lots of cessations on the Theravada path. No cessations are necessary for Enlightenment, it can also happen without them. In Mahamudra, instead of the Dissolution experience of cessation, the so-called "Non-dissolution" experience, or the insight the Infinite Mind/Being is timeless/eternal and boundless (but not yet fully impersonal) is considered of equal or even higher importance. Since that paves the way for the constant realization of Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality while the visual field arises, or Full Enlightenment. It is a difficult topic, needing a lot of reference meditation-experiences in order to start to intuit the differences. Maybe this is helpful for some.

I really think it's a time for a long detailed video of why you do not consider buddhist enlightenment is a proper awakening. Because for quite some time you just dismiss it without really explaining what you mean. How is the experiential and permament dissolution of separate self not the real shit? What the hell do you mean? Because for me god realization, absolute sollipsism, not only knowing but viscerally feeling that this is all a dream - all of this came before fully dissolvong the separate entity. And just like Frank Yang says, that shift, of true centerless reality perceiving itself really feels like constant 5meo. I thought he was bullshitting, until I experienced the dissolution myself. So I would really appreciate you addressing it really thoroughly, because that is like a very core of what actualized.org is about. And I believe Roger Thisdell description of 5th stage is really pure, to the point and non dogmatic, so it would really be great if you addressed his points. Some of us really care about not stopping. But you are not giving us detailed explanation. It's been more than a year without deepest awakening type video. That would be a great candidate. Or at least some longer 2 A4 pages long forum post.

How do you know? Do you speak from personal experience? (sorry, heard that one somewhere before ). Or is it deduction from cases you think are enlightened and who still suffer? There is a path beyond Enlightenment to stabilize this freedom from suffering, but the tools to do that are given for the first time WITH Enlightenment (peak to plateau to permanent). And most "Enlighenments" are just Awakenings with remnants of separate-self hijacking the newfound Nonduality. And yet, the amount of bliss and release from the suffering of the self-contraction that resting in True Being (or Awakened infinite nondual timeless Awareness) brings, once it has become accessible, is astonishing. And that bliss and force of True Being has the potential to stabilize that in plateau to permanent. These statements of yours are in contradiction to roughly 2 millenia+ testaments of beings who have realized their True Being. Suffering is the "rubber band" that makes separate-selves return to their True Being. Hamster-wheels until the original condition is restored. Suffering is what guarantees that no being is lost in the illusion of separation forever. The longer one chases states/experiences/whatever, the longer the hamster-wheels spin. One could even say that the separate-self IS suffering/resistance/contraction (Adi Da called the ego self-contraction). Because one of its main essences IS the suffering/contraction/localization/resistance to what is. Suffering IS the ego IS the separation/separate-self. I can tell you from my own experience that it is felt exactly as that (self-contraction), which becomes obvious at some point on the path, as contractions in the head and body. When these contractions/solidities (mainly in the head at the end in my case) fully dissolve and drop, the boundless field of consciousness becomes infinite and truly nondual. It is such a relaxation of tension/contration/localization/constant-background-contraction/"baseline-suffering". It feels like vast-spaciousness, nondual, limitless, so free and open. Bliss itself. And honestly, every being not living from this obviously and inevitably suffers, is in the claws of the merciless self-contraction. This becomes then totally clear once one has experienced this dropping of the self-contraction, which then creates compassion. Which stabilizes (paradoxically) Awakening and Nonduality even further. That is the beginning of boundless vast Non-Duality (not yet Enlightenment), in which Awakened nondual Awareness ripens (Roger Thisdell stage 4 to stage 5) towards Enlightenment, or the full dropping of anything separate, truly becoming Infinite Being. Here the bliss starts flowing, and the path starts showing itself to itself. Fueled by the bliss of True Being, which already starts giving a powerful attractor point starting here. Selling the bliss of vast nondual limitless spaciousness at the River PS: And for the "trying" to dissolve suffering. Yes, trying doesn't work. The dissolving of suffering/self-contraction is the case once it happens. Until then, while trying, there is suffering.

But kidding aside, this is the Zen version of the key stage from going what some call Nonduality/Buddhism/rodents to Enlightenment. Beginning Nonduality is still in the dream, a subtle self merged in unity with the visual field, exchanging the dual dream for the nondual dream. But still a dream. When this Unity-self gets thinner and thinner, more and more transcended (Thisdell stage 4 to Thisdell stage 5), then: Everything - "every vestige of self-awareness", or any subtle I-feeling/I-thought/duality (all subtle illusions) have to be seen through and transcended with automized high-speed awarenes (speed, because these illusions arise extremly fast towards the end) and familiarity (strength, because there are some very subtle "feelings" and other arisings that constitute the separate-self) with these subtle obscurations. Speed & Strength of Awareness (courtesy to Frank Yang). And that has to be done automatic, no doer/agent doing it anymore ("Nonmeditation Yoga"). And then at the end it can really break open, in a way that can't be anticipated: You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. Literally. Their essence. Before that stages, afterwards nowhere to go... Infinite Being.

I would say its both full and empty. Both real and imaginary. Like everything. As Roger Thisdell said: all of those dualities are category errors. Reality is neither this nor that, its a special third thing that cannot be named.

On an Absolute Level, "it" or better True You is solipsistic. Alone and infinite. True You/Infinite Being is "alone" because "it" is infinite with nothing possibly outside of it. But that is True You/True Being. And someone who is not enlightened doesn't (by definition) know the difference between the current identity and True Being, or else he/she would be enlightened and no longer be asking these questions... So talking about Solipsism and God is just counterproductive when talking with beings who have not realized their True Nature. Because they will project their ego on the concept of God or Solipsism, no other chance. First become Nothing (no separate-self), then you will be everything (Infinite Being) - Thisdell stage 4, becoming Thisdell stage 5/Enlightenment. But better not project a little separate something (illusion-separate-self) on everything (Roger Thisdell stage 3 "Godmind"). Or: I am God imagining everything. That makes Thisdell stage 3 a cul-de-sac, no way forward to stabilize Awakening in daily life and ease the suffering. Which is exactly what we see here, with a few added ETs. Is Infinite Being not enough? Does it need to be called God? As I have written several times, I don't really like the pointer God, because it is normally loaded with other meaning on top. God = omnipresent, infinite, timeless/eternal/immortal, creating/manifesting/imagining the whole gig: Same for True Infinite Being. One without a second. But all the stuff projected on top of it when using the pointer God instead of Infinite Being, the one without a second, is often not for the faint of hearted. It anthropomorphizes Infinite True Being/Reality with properties and intentions that are just not there on the most fundamental level, and then proejcts it on the illusion-ego/illusion separate-self. "I am God". Only very few can truthfully say that, because most have not realized their True Being and can't tell the difference to ego/separate-self. And those who can say that truthfully and not fall for the illusion normally don't talk like that, because they know from their own practice it is not beneficial for beings with the ego/separate-self illusion not fully seen through. As soon as one talks like that to not enlightened beings, they almost always project the properties of True Being (or God) on themselves, their separate-identity, which they still have not seen through. Because else they would be enlightened. And these separate-self-identities-arisings/illusions are that which have to be cut down/transcended for Enlightenment to happen. And using the grandiose word "God" tends to blow these illusion-arising up to cosmic proportions: "I" imagine everything. No. "Your" True Being does. But what is that? What is the constant always here True Being? Here also in Deep Sleep? Before ones birth? And if one would fully know the difference between True Being and separate-self/ego, one wouldn't talk about these topics using pointers/concepts like God/Solipsism, because it would be all clear anyway... And one wouldn't need to state I am God and I imagine everything, because.... well... TO WHOM? Well, I guess you get the point. At the level of Infinite Being one is alone. But there is no one there to feel alone, because that would be an anthropomorphic illusion arising of a separate-self WITHIN True Being. It just is what it is. And always has been. And with an enlightened being talking like that it is not necessary. Makes no sense. One sees and knows the Awakened Nondual enlightened State the "other" is in (and nobody really home), and it is clear. Imagine a discussion like: I am God! No, I am God! No, you are not! We are God! That is all illusion, starting with the words "I" and "we". Lot of talk of God and Solipsism happens on Thisdells stage 3 "God-stage, God-mind". Infinite Nonduality with separate-self/remaining identity/ego not fully seen through". It is contradictory, not stable, with lots of illusions still going on. And that is presupposing its done from real nondual states. Most of the time, its done from not nondual states, just from the conceptual level. And from there, it is more insanity than anything else. The discussion then goes like: "No, small you is not God. Big You, True Being, is. But first find out what that is before talking about God & Solipsism". And because of all these contradictions that doing that move includes, there is so much discussion here about these topics. Because it is not clear, but contradictory. Sometimes I use the pointer God, but normally it is not a good pointing/teaching tool. Ever noticed that very few enlightened teachers that are public talk about how they are God and imagining everything, and they are all alone and Solipsism and so on? They do, if you listen between the lines or read/see enough stuff. Sometimes even explictily. Sometimes, even complete books like the Supreme Source have been written, that even got the approval by our host as God Realization. And these enlightened teachers normally don't talk about them being God/Solipsism. Not because they are too stupid to know what God is, and what Solipsism/Aloneness on the Absolute Level means. And they do know that all is an imagined illusion happening within "their" own Infinite Being/True Being by definition. If they wouldn't, they wouldn't be enlightened. But they don't throw that in public at a poor ego to blow it up to cosmic proportions, because that doesn't help their students going from Thisdell stage 3 to 4 to 5. It usually even prevents getting the ego stage 1 to witness stage 2 to nondual stage 3. Because to get there sobre and without psychedelics, one already has to kill/transcend the ego/separate-self quite a lot... Nothing kills sobre Awakened Nonduality better than saying to oneself: I AM GOD. A "normal" identification of I am a human so and so suffices to do that... And one more thing: If Nonduality (or Buddhism) gets bashed: Nonduality is NOT automatically Enlightenment, or realization of True Infinite Being/Reality. It is Thisdells stage 3 Godmind. A boundless nondual infinite field of Awareness, with a separate-self still well and alive hijacking that! And that most Buddhist are not enlightened should go without saying.. Stage 3 Godmind. That is where one gets with psychedelics. And maybe even stage 4 a bit. But I have never seen a mainly psychedelic aficionado get to stage 5, True No Self (also nondual, but without center/separate-self-illusion, truly being the Infinite Totality/Being). Stable Nondual realization of Infinite Being in daily life. Maybe somebody knows one, would be very interested. Can't rule out that one exists, or that one wakes up just by the impulse of a psychedelic. It is just, I have never seen one. I know quite a lot that have done that with transcending/meditation of the false illusion separate self. So basically "Nonduality" and "Buddhism" gets bashed, because one doesn't know that stage 3 "Godmind"/Nonduality is not yet True Being or Enlightenment. Of course merely Nondual Realisation doesn't bring "God-Realization", or understanding that True Being imagines/manifests all of it, and that ones True Self is that. That is stage 5, or the link (Supreme Source) above. Or True Enlightenment. Psychedelics get one to Nonduality, maybe in more sophisticated cases to realizing that it is all imagined/manifested to fool "oneself". But it doesn't get oneself conforming to the impersonal infinite nondual enlightened mindstream. And that is why this "realization" is not stable in daily life. Still suffering/resisting the content of ones own True Infinite Being. "Solution": add a few ETs from higher levels of Reality, and call that higher than realizing and being ones True Infinite Being. And be proud on ones own continuing suffering/resistance towards happens within ones True Infinite Nondual Being, and declare that as inevitable. Or something like that. Well, quite a show Maya is dishing "us" up this time, isn't it Selling God&Solipsism Water by the River The Koan still is: What is the True Being of the ET at the end, really? And that of any other ET, n+1?

A very good and important topic to contemplate about. I also spent a long time with the topic of what causes actually Awakening, and its relationship to suffering. I tried to include as many past & present cases into my perspective on it as possible. On suffering in the context of Awakening, Enlightenment, the meditation path and my personal experiences (and my personal pet-theory of it all): -warning, the usual conceptual overkill of yours truly ahead- The following is my perspective based on what I have seen/read about other cases, and my own experiences. Without some form of suffering (or more precicly in Buddhist terma Dukha which means not suffering, but more unsatisfactoryness) nobody would ever start the path to Enlightenment/Awakening/Liberation/True Being, because one would be happy & satisfied doing the myriad of projects to become happy and free of suffering/unsatisfactoriness in our culture/time. Maslows pyramid up and down. What is not so well known: Even Maslow put towards the end of his life stage 6 on top of Maslows pyramid of need: (Self-)-Transcendence. So for the start of the "Enlightenment-project" (which is a contradiction in itself, but that is another story...) one needs either a) a mainstream-culture that pushes spiritual liberation/Awakening (and for our lifetimes, Maya goes "not today darling" on that topic, or b) some form of suffering or dukha (unsatisfactoriness) to start the journey. Then during the path to Awakening/Enlightenment/liberation, the old cycles of suffering/unsatisfactoriness don't stop at once. Here is how it developed for me, in a nutshell. The nature of the separate-self/ego to cycle between being happy for some time, then suffering/being unsatisfied/resisting what is/unhappy, then start a new project to make it happy, and round it goes. If God would write a manual to make a Samsara/Illusion game with (separate) self and others, it would go something like this: Give them some unsatisfaction and a carrot (expectation of happiness induced by a certain experience in the future), let them chase, then give them temporary happiness(=not resisting what is) and them make 'em suffer again. And given them lots of levels of carrots/games to chase and try out for permanent happiness. That is all that is needed to have a game with separate-self. The chasing goes from Maslows pyramid base stage 1 apparently up to chasing ETs n+1. Then, on an efficient path (my case Mahamudra/Dzogchen), the bliss of ones True Being (Awakenings to Nondual Awakened Awarenes) by cutting off the thought/feeling stream of the separate self in real time (also called meditation, if done correctly) starts flowing. At some point of my path (mainly Mahamudra&Dzogchen), I literally could start producing my bliss for example while meditating, walking, in meetings (at least some of them when I just could watch the show ) and so on... That normally starts after some years of meditation (on and off the pillow) when the vast spaciousness of boundless awareness starts showing up and the contractions in the head get literally relaxed. That impressed me pretty much. That bliss didn't hold with "hard" problems/really bad events in the beginning, but it started the become stronger and stronger, inducing more and more awakend nondual states of blissful silence. A positive feedback loop. More and more facets of True Being started to show up, see my last post on the remnants of separate self that need to be seen through. Creating more and more Awakening and bliss. At some point the shift can happen towards realizing what one really is/True Infinite Being, or Enlightenment. Since that normally implies a gradual transcendence path/process over several years that one has been fed each and any core-separte-self identity/suffering during the meditation by Maya in the years before, pretty much all of that stuff is transcended. Because Maya will "throw" anything at you that she has to keep the illusion going, and she has a lot. But it can jump to Enlightenment any time (Karma, aka genetics but I prefer Karma, more encompassing), induced by various events, often suffering, before that path/during it/at the end of it. For most it takes the whole path. The more gradual and longer the path, the more stable is the realization later. Yet, once having realized True Being, it is no longer in doubt. So, that was my experience, now comes my theory: Beings are karmically wired more or less fortunately/differently. Some wake up because their visual field conforms for some reasons (base state, Kundalini-Awakening, whatever) very well to the True Nature of things (mere appearance and not solid objects out there, Infinite field of awareness, boundless, timeless, always here, basically my last long post about a mindstream conforming to the enlightened mindstream. Or at least they have the potential for that shift to happen quickly. and their core-separate-self-identity-arisings are for some reason (Karma,...) easily seen through when contemplating&self-inquiring. For these beings (1) and (2) in place, some trigger can cause Enlightenment. Suffering-example: Tolle. Kundalini/Energetic: Ramana. Anamanda Ma, countless examples in history. Branch of that is shaktipat hitting a "fertile field". Then there are the normies, like yours truly, who need an either need a) an efficient practice (like Mahamudra/Dzogchen) first to induce awakened states, then get rid of all illusion/separate-self remnants, and then some good pointing out instruction of the real state of things (the properties of True Infinite Being, basically my last long post). quite some time/years needed to start inducing awakened awareness/mere nondual appearance of the visual field via meditation/trekchö/cutting off each and any thought-arising in more and more highspeed by looking into its (empty/consciousness) nature out of which thoughts/feelings are made. Until then of course also suffering in cycles. But getting "over the hump" towards bliss-inducing state happens here in the fastest and most efficient manner, as least in the opinion of yours truly. The beginning steps of that path are also concentration meditation, like in b) below. But quite refined ones, and not for too long before one shifts practice. Learning to produce ones own bliss with being in these awakened states. This way, gradually getting rid of large parts of suffering by slowly transcending the "sufferer", and replacing misery of the separate-self with the bliss of awakened states. and then, towards the end of the road (or if one is gifted/fortunate/lucky also in the middle of the path) the shift to realizing True Being and its immortality (or infinite-always here nature), and with that removing the final fear of "death" or disappearance. b) a practice that is less detailed and focuses more on brute-force willpower/push-through concentration meditation: Jhana, Zen, "sit and die before the wall" approaches that need to push with willpower through lots and lots of suffering. Here, we are again at lots and lots of suffering (at least at the beginning stages, but also all along the path from what I have seen), because Maya will throw everything she has at you to get you off the pillow/meditation, not that one wakes up and leaves the game prematurely... And now the second part of the post, why are the paths with less/minimized suffering not practiced more widely? As @Arthogaan has noticed correctly in the post below, and I had the exact same thoughts many times... Short answer to the question above: they are more complex and need more maintenance/coaching/understanding. So they are more difficult to teach & multiply & roll out, and normally need personal coaching. they have mostly been kept secret until recently because of the various dangers, like for example ego-inflation, nihilistic misuse-potential, or just plain and simple misunderstanding potential of complex practices, which leads to stagnation in the practice. Why do we have mainly enlightened ones who got lucky/were lucky with karma/genetics (see above), or from the paths 2b) Concentration meditation/Theravada/Zen? Because until recently the highly(!) sophisticated methods of Tibetan Buddhism like Mahamudra/Dzogchen/... (who have developed much more and way more sophisticated than for example Zen/Theravada which are very similiar to what was done in India 1000 to 2000 years ago (although I love these traditions very much) were not accessible at all. The Tibetans "concentrated" more on spirituality as a society, 1000 years of R&D of enlightened lineages and sometimes a large part of the adult population in the monastaries (~15%+). Head of state = Dalai Lama for a long time. Basically, main focus of that culture&society including government was Enlightenment. Of course there was also a lot of stupid things going on, like war between monasteries. But the overall development of buddhist meditation in that setting was unparalleled. Compared to that (sorry) Theravada and Zen sometimes feels a bit like "living fossils" (said in a joking way), although I like them very much and they do work quite robustly and produce fully enlightened ones. The Tibetan Teachings are very sophisticated and either need lots of focus on them (like reading the books of Brown 10-20 times and experimenting a lot), or a good and enlightened teacher explaining them and checking for understanding (which pretty much didn't exist until recently, all secret teachings are out, see books of Daniel Brown. "best of" collection of Menri Trizin, selected by Menri Trizin (probably those with which he achieved his own realization) to be translated by Brown). Another problem is they got a deeply cultural "lingo" and quite some hyperbole (the Tantric teachings of generation/completition stages and especially the lower Tantras). Quite hard to approach. So the only thing not published by Brown of these systems are some of the secret pointing out instructions for Enlightenment, although quite some are published, for example his Akrid book (Pith Instructions for A Khrid rDzogs Chen. Yet, reading that in parallel to Pointing out the Great Way is probably better than starting with that book alone). That system plus a bit Jac O'Keffee, Roger Thisdell, Massaro, Wolinsky for the final steps towards Realization (I wrote quite a lot about these), and some psychedelics for state-peak-previews... These elements I assume will be found in the Global Dharma of the future. Then some more aspects: Concentration Meditation Systems like Zen or Jhana/Theravada are quite robust: Don't need so much teaching/feedback during the process, are more brute-force and less complex. More robust, less efficient (in the meaning that one needs to push through suffering with meditation, and that they can be slower/less pleasant, and many meditators end in the many cul-de-sacs of the path where one can just stagnate if certain nuances are not understood. But done long &hard enough they work. Metaphor: The axe to cut down a tree. Doesnt need fuel & maintenance & sophisticated handling like a forst harvester.... which brings us to: The Forsest harvester to cut down the forst of Illusion: Mahamudra&Dzogchen&other Tibetan Buddhism techniques, see for example Daniel Browns books & videos: can work if done correctly/understood correctly/coached correctly in the fastest way possible by swiftly creating Awakened Nondual States most pleasant way possible (minimum amount of pushing through suffering on/off meditation pillow, taking the meditation off the pillow into daily life at the earliest possible point. avoiding pretty much all cul-de-sacs of the path where meditation practice can stagnate/level out if something is not done correctly, which means and end to the growth of Awakened Nondual States. Mostly they don't even appear then in first place, and one remains in the mericless claws of the separate-self-contraction/suffering. but are way more complex than the standard concentration meditation practice like Zen/Jhana. Pointing out the Great Way, Brown has hundreds of pages of descriptions of the various stages/steps and how the path develops through them. So many many things to potentially do wrong if something is understood incorrectly. Zen-Koan-meditation would just push through these errors if done long enough, but an incorrectly done Nonmeditation (done too early) or One Taste meditation goes nowhere and stagnates... Selling Water by the River

Yes, you can't find it because True Self has no location, it is nonlocal, centerless, boundless and infinite. The whole infinite nondual field/vastness. What can be found are (bodily-) sensations/feelings like a center/solidity, imposed limitations, imagined boundaries of the visual field (imagination of boundary with somehow somatic sensation of boundary on top), and a lot of thoughts/feelings/concept of being human. Yet, all of that can be seen as an object, arising IN ones consciousness, floating in Infinite Being. But there is no short-cut. It needs practice and seeing into the nature of all thoughts (emptiness/consciousness, which makes them dissolve and cut off) and into all bodily solidities/centers has to be done again and again, since the Gestalt of the illusion reassembles itself very fast. Neti Neti, not this, not that. Or not only this or only that. It takes a long time to get to nondual states (Thisdell stage 3), where a felt fast spaciousness open up and nonduality (still with a murky self left) starts. Good news is: Beginning here bliss starts flowing when in these states just by being in them, and the path becomes truly wonderful. That is beginning freedom. Frank Yang described his Enlightenment when his two last items that didn't conform to the enlightened mindstream were realized (after a long time of removing pretty much everything before, Roger Thisdell stage 2&3&4): all bodily sensations parading as a center or solidity were gone and dissolved (head, chest,...). Just vast spaciousness without a center. the cluster of sensations/thoughts claiming to be the watching all meditation-process of shutting off each thought-arising were seen as also mere clusters of thoughts. Basically also for him the crossing over to Enlightenment, or understanding True Infinite Being/Reality/Consciousness happened when the mindstream conformed to the enlightened mindstream. Then Infinite Being/Reality awakens to its True Being in that perspective/being/mindstream. Good. That is the thorn with which to remove the thorn. But also notice that this thought ""self, I cannot find you, where are you" is again a thought (or a cluster of thoughts/sensations/feelings) claiming ownership/identity, which creates another illusion-identity. But it has to be done like that, until that is automized. Then one switches to automatic meditation (Nonmeditation-Yoga). Bon voyage Selling Water by the River

Ok, I try. But be aware this is extremely difficult to do it in a monological form via text, and hardly complete. Good news is: At that stage the path shows itself to itself if one just continues with the right meditation/awareness techniques. The illusion-mechanisms pop up one by one. If applying a good understanding of what will show up, the process can be fastened. It is like adding a blow-torch to the burning down of the illusion-building. So, here we go: Any thought implying I/me. "I-feeling" any understanding you have ("I" understand) any doubt ("I" doubt) all of it very subtle and fast forms of feeling separate. Or thinking that. Very fast & very subtle. Way faster than a thought elaborated over several second. Tenths/fractions of a second... Speed of awareness is crucial, that is being trained here And strength of awareness, to be able to also cut off core separate-self identities and suffering/resistance. Reckognizing that, not getting hypnotized by that, cutting it off by looking into its nature (empty consciousness). and since its very hard to tell the difference if a thought-arising is laced with individuality/separation/identity: Cutting off all of them, just for training. Yet, one can at other times also maintain ones awareness during practical daily life/thoughts. And memory of the past: It is being imagined right now, appears as complete "chunk" out of Infinite Consciousness/Being, and then gets elaborated in thought (which is very slow compared to how it emerges "fully" formed. That is truly a mindf*** when your awareness gets fast enough to spot for the first time how the complete past emerges immediately as "whole block" and then is slowly elaborated, fooling one to believe one is that "I" having this memory and thoughts. You see then how each any anything is just emerging to fool oneself. That is an aspect that Leo emphasizes with his concept of God-Realization. The past is radically imagined right now, there is no past. There is only an Infinite Formless eternal "Field" modulating itself to give the appearance of a past. Same for the "future". You don't have a past, You are an Infinite Vastness that is able to make up the past on the fly, and then have thoughts/feelings-arisings that "believe" that. Yet, that Infinite Vastness/Being CAN UNDERSTAND, and so it can understand that the past is imagined on the fly here and now. That is a major understanding/building block of Enlightenment, or seeing that separation from it all (separate self) is just an imagined arising within oneself. One is not a human, but the Infinite Vastness/Being (which is luckily also always here, aka immortal/eternal, can't go anywhere infinite Nothingness with nothing outside of it) imagining a human and all its elements moving/appearing within itself. So it is Duality gone (visual field nondual) -> Nondual boundless infinite (boundary of the field is gone) -> Infinite solidity of "external" visual field is gone, replacing solidity with mere groundless lucid appearance -> imagined illusion/lucidity/non-material, mere imagined empty hologram like appearance. time is gone (as described above, past imagined right now) -> always here, never not here Infinite Mind/Being. Eternal, immortal, absolutely fundamental, all is appearing and arising in it, always. space is gone (imagined IN the infinte vastness of True Being) -> space doesnt exist outside, space is imagined in oneself, the vastness of Infinity (which is not 3d space), and there is no 3D-space (or any space at all, non-euclidian, 4D, whatever) possibly existing outside of your Infinite Being. No outside. Infinite. All there is. Space is not self-existing outside of ones own nondual infinite being. It is imagined by it. What is behind your face? "beyond" the visual field. Not (3d-)space, but the Infinite (Being). -> spaceless, dimensionless, infinite. Containing all possible dimensions and realms, high and low. all of that is imagined/constructed/manifested right here right now in ones nondual True eternal Being, Infinite Consciousness/Being. -> A mirage/illusion appearing in ones Infinite Being, giving rise to the illusion of a human life within it. Another way to say that is: In Pointing out the Great Way, Brown is one statement: If everything (1) all appearance of the world/visual field is seen as mere appearance (empty) hovering lucid and hologram like in Infinite Vastness (that can still be stage 3&4 Thisdell with separate-self well and alive, and that is why that is accesible via psychedelics) AND (2) each and any thought/feeling arising/"internal" mindstream event (including everything one believed oneself to be, I-feeling, I-thoughts, the whole history, the whole asking what is Reality/True Being, ALL of it) is seen as empty arising in Infinite Being/Nothingness/Consciousness. which means that ones mindstream is then conforming to the enlighened mindstream, or close to how Infinite Reality really is. Then Enlightenment can happen. But it can't be forced, since that would be thoughts with a thinker identified with them, with I-feelings, wanting something. Infinite Being/Consciousness has to understand itself, with no artifical activity/separate self trying to force it. At that point, the properties of the mindstream above can be automized, and this automatic meditation/mindfulness can be protected ("mindfulness without [artificial activity]"), element (1) of Nonmeditation Yoga, see Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). One doesnt't focus on anything (which Daniel Brown calls particularizing). This picking out something specific with attention (particularizing, the fastest process of the mind, way faster than thinking) is what creates Duality, or better disrupts the original nonduality. Instead, one watches how particularization happens, and transcends that in a way that the boundless nondual unity with/of the visual field is not interrupted. Element (2) of Nonmeditation Yoga, "do not take to mind". and then maintains and waits in that state. Meditation and Mindfulness in these awakened nondual states does itself. Enlightenment can't be forced, because who would do the forcing? Instead, the Infinite Vastness/Being can understand/realize itself (or its True Nature) when conditions are exactly right. That is then Enlightenment. Bye bye illusion-human, hello Infinite Being/Reality "having" a human,. Making the mindstream conform to the enlightened mindstream so that Enlightenment can happen is very important, because that part can be done by intelligent and informed practice. And that is why an efficient system is way faster, more efficient for most than and way more pleasent than a brute force approach like sitting an staring at the wall (brute force method), concentration or Koan-style. more likely to work than betting on just by having the right Karma and enough of the mere-appearance-infinite-character of the visual field and thought/feeling space in place already (Ramana, Anamanda Ma), and then some contemplation based on the already very much conforming mindstream Only those who needed to walked the steps can tell about the steps. Those are on top can mainly tell about how the properties of the roof are/what Truth is, but its more difficult to talk about steps that didn't have to be taken/climbed because they were already in place. The low success rate of the Enlightenment-endeavours in my perspective is due to mostly using brute-force-methods (which need lots and lots of willpower and pushing through negative emotions on the pillow) with no clear map of the steps of the path and the lots of cul-de-sacs of the path, or prodigy-approaches of telling about nature of True Being, but not offering a method path for average-gifted persons (Ramana for example). So, conforming to the enlightened mindstream mainly is: (1) Visual Field nondual, mere appearance, "hovering" in Infinite Vasteness/Infinity, being manifested/imagined right now (2) every thought arising/feeling arising is seen as emerging out of True Being/consciousness, made out of it, moving in it. Especially all thoughts/feelings relating to I/me. Feels impersonal, no separate indiduality found in any of that. And based on that the separate self (what one thought oneself to be) can be realized as mere flow of colours/appearances/feelings/thoughts (which have a very coherent and well made structure/Gestalt, and therefor are extremly hypnotizing and seem believeable) appearing in Oneself (Infinite Being), including the whole past, and that one IS the always here Infinite Eternal Field of Being/Consciousness. And the former separate-self is like the tree-picture in this wikipedia-article (below): A representation for something that appears (the tree), but has no independend existence apart from True Being (which is the nondual infinite eternal vastness of Being right here and now, with the body and mindstream having no different priority or separation from all that is). A well made illusion. The picture of the tree concept doesn't point to a real tree outside of consciousness (an object), but to shapes/colours of an imagined trees within Infinite Consciousness, not to real trees that exist outside of Infinite Being, self-existing/indepdently existing outside of consciousness. There are no trees, just the concept of them, and some imagined colours/forms/sensations giving the Gestalt of an appearance of atree. Same way, there is no human/separate-self beyond the appearance-Gestalt, and the concept pointing to such an imagined self-existing entity. There is only Infinite Being, not the human (which only appears in Infinite Being). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept There always ever was, is and can be the Totality of (true) Being, self-aware, perceptions perceiving themselves. Either with reflective-self-consciousness arising (like normal human mind stream), or just mere awareness of the Totality without the self-consciousness part, perceptions perceiving themselves. Aware, but not separate. The non reflective-pure awareness of this vast field/being is more fundamental than the temporary appearing self-consciousness (with I-feelings I-thoughts). The Awareness is the Sun, the reflective (self-) consciousness (I-feeling, I-thoughts) is the reflected light of the Sun on the planets. Basically, its replacing ones old mistaken identity (imagined false illusion separate-self) with the correct identity, Infinite timeless/eternal (always here) Being. The flow of the human mindstream with its practical thoughts and so on happen within Ones True Being. One has a human, but is not only the human. Thoughts or feelings of separation are known to be illusion. When that shift happen, this realization is always available by just reaching out, or immediately always present. The visual field IS mere appearance and lucid/hologram/groundless, it IS infinite, eternal always here. Thoughts and feelings ARE just floating in it, made out of it, and "it" is onself, nondual. And that can be felt all the time or by just checking/moving attention there. It can never really be unseen. Reality/True Being understands itself. It is beyond doubt, unshakable, deathless/immortal always here. And that is the kicker: One/True Being is literally immortal and infinite. Not the ego, but True Being with its nature of Awareness. One can never die, and nothing outside one self can truly threaten one, because there is no outside of oneself. Seriousness and danger is replaced with laughter and security. Resting in True Being generates bliss, even when approaching it in Thisdells stage 4. Its a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop: Cutting off thoughts, field nondual, bliss flows. Literally. And that reinforces the stability of Nondual mere appearance visual field even more. Awakening enchances awakening. Suffering/resistance to what is no longer grips in any form since a long time. If it moves within ones being, is seen and let go. Would the inherent bliss of True Being ever be exchanged with grasping for being an ET seeing more of manifested reality, but suffers because its not enlightened? (more on that later). That is a "hard" shift, it is not just thinking differently. It is for sure not "I am God and imagine all reality", which is just cosplay. It is Reality understanding itself, Infinite Being waking up to itself. What can do the understanding of that? Reality/Being/Infinite Consciousness. Waking up to its True Nature. That last shift is knowing what one really is, and that understanding/realization runs over a short period of time. Waking up. Happens only once. And is final. Is beyond doubt (since these would only be more thoughts/arisings moving within Reality and subsiding into it). The shifts/Awakenings leading towards it go over a longer time, many years. And then of course there are infinite forms of manifestation, ET n+1, with vastly more understanding of the relative manifestations, basking in their understanding of the imagination process, different dimensions, higher realms, non-euclidian space, completely other alien manifestation realms. Humans look like ants compared to that for sure. These beings have been reported since millenia, in all cultures, all times. Reality-creating and maintaining Gods (Brahman, Shiva, Vishnu and endless other names for them). But it is the same True YOU, the only Being or Awareness in existence. The same being. There is nothing outside of it. No other (being, God, alien). And one can have an unenlightened ET, not having realized what Reality really is. Beings of higher realms are not necessarily enlightened. That tale is as old as the spiritual traditions. Although many of these beings of higher planes are enlightened. An unenlightened ET (which by definition has separate-self-elements not transcended/seen through in real time, which are by definition nothing other than the elements resisting the now, or suffering in other words) is a rather sad and suffering figure compared to a being who has realized its True Infinite Being. Calling the lower higher, and the higher lower. Whose modus operandi is that again? But lets not end too serious: It is all an illusion-game, "nobody" really gets lost forever, and Maya smiles lovingly on all not-really-(self)-existing-but-just-appearing children of Reality, humans and ETs alike. Although it can appear & feel very real & serious. Selling Water by the River

For me that was the most tricky stage. One has to install an automized mindfullness-process that cuts of anything separate/I-feeling/I-thought automatically and fast enough, but can't use willful artificial activity for it (because that is separate-self/ego/thought process) again, and that is way too slow and cuts off Nonduality/Awakening). Best description for that stage I found is Brown, Pointing out the Great Way, chapter Nonmeditation. I had to read it dozens of times over the years to get the nuances... Jhanas also work, but in my opinion Mahamudra/Nonmeditation is more sophisticated and efficient. Historically, it was developed in Tibet over a long time with many many practitioners, while Theravada/Jhana looks for me more like way earlier Buddhism. Although it of course also works, see Frank Yang, Daniel Ingram and Roger Thisdell. But all(!) say that at the last stages they needed to add something like Dzogchen/Mahamudra/Do-Nothing meditation and not only willful concentration (artificial activity).

You can be an enlightened ET and know what its True Being is. Or a an enlighened human. It is the same True Infinite Being, and realizing that (and the True Nature of any possible being) is Enlightenment. Maybe the ET and its buddies in the link below know a little bit more about (imagined) illusion-appearances arising in True Being than the enlightened human and its manifestation mechanisms. That is what Roger Thisdell means: The enlightened ET sees more waves on the ocean than the enlightened human. But both enlightened ET and enlightened Human have the same True Infinite Being, both can realize they are the Infinite Ocean. That is what Enlightenment makes clear beyond the shadow of a doubt. It is YOU. True You. All of that would become totally clear if one can answer this little Koan: Who is the ET at the end of the movie? Like, really? But for that, ones separate-self-illusions have to die/be transcended completely. One will no longer be human after that, but an Infinite Being containing a human-show. Or an ET-show. Or a whatever n+1 show. The unenlightened ET and psychedelic-state-induced short-term feeling & sensing &understanding like ET seems for sure very impressive from the unenlightened perspective, higher and what not. The ET-experience brings temporary easing from the ever-returning suffering of the remaining unenlightened separate-self remnants. From the enlightened perspective, unenlightened ET is just more form and understanding of manifestation & its mechanisms, and more grasping/suffering/restisting in cycles. A less than smart idea trying to become & understand the n+1 ETs in Infinity and marveling at their wonderful perspectives&understandings of the waves of the Infinite Ocean. That should even be logical from the unenlightened perspective, but will become totally clear with the Clap of the one Hand/Enlightenment beyond the shadow of a doubt. But even before that with some common sense one should be able to intuit that. At least if Maya smiles not too charming. The other perspective (ET & company) ist not coherent nor logical, even from an unenlightened level. But hey, yours truly honestly admits selling the same old water by the same old river sold since millenia is soooo unsexy compared to becoming&rejoicing in (temporary) being & selling ET, I get it. And I do admit its quite a show, so all is good. And maybe the career-move for the next incarnation is actually becoming ET full-time collecting the marbles at the end of the clip? But preferably please only if the chap realizes its own Infinite Being early on, and doesn't grasp/suffer wanting to play marbles... Selling Water by the River

You are right that this is the last piece of the puzzle. Self-Awareness (bold marking by me), or awareness of its own existence is indeed NOT the Absolute. Its the last illusion... I wouldn't say that for Awareness (since here we would be on slippery terrain), but for self-awareness/self-consciousness definitely. Massaro summarized it nicely. Maybe watch that video a few times, and then the other parts of the Infinity-series: Awareness is "always there" (or not, since its beyond existing and non-existing), at least as a potential for sentience (if nothing arises, aka cessation, deep sleep), but if there is nothing to perceive there is no (self-)-consciousness. Unaware Deep Sleep, Cessation. But it doesnt really make sense to talk about awareness/consciousness if there is no perception, since then there is also no self-consciousness or self-awareness. Its pure Infinity/Absolute. The clap of the one hand. THAT Reality/Being which can be unaware of itself is what you are. Not the (self-)awareness with which one identifies, that is one of the last lenses/filters of illusion. You can be nothing at all, unaware of yourself (since there is no self-reflective self yet), with the potential for sentience. In your case, I assume getting that is the last building block to Enlightenment and fully getting what you are. Without fully realizing that, there is a subtle murky "nothing" self (Roger Thisdell stage 4). Thisdells stage 5 (another video) is then the resolve of the contradictions of stage 4. Everything else after this True Being/Absolute comes later: Manifestation, Infinite Field of mere appearance, gods & humans & aliens and the whole shebang. The "I am self-Awareness/Consciousness" feeling/thought/Gestalt (very subtle, hard to spot, the end boss so to say) is the last illusion/filter/lense of the last separate-self that can be constructed. And since it can be seen, since it changes, its an object, temporary, moving in True You. Leaves us with the point who/what realized all of that? Reality/Being realizes itself. And that is called Enlightenment. Its not personal, its not anything separate. It is Reality comprehending itself. Jac O'Keffee: "We're left with consciousness that cannot know itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually can't know itself. However, it is known. You can drop back there and it is known, but you can't bring yourself there or your capacities to know it. It's almost like it's so fundamental that it can't turn around and see itself. It doesn't see itself. That's too much movement. That's movement such as space, time and identification and me, myself, I, and the building of my movie that happens". And maybe most important. It is not an it, or an Absolute, or anything "third person singular"-pronoun at all that "has" "Awareness" and explodes into manifestation. IT IS You. True You. With a big Y. That becomes totally obvious when the whole field is a mere appearance floating in Nothingness/Infinity (1), and you are "It" since there is no separate anything left at all, no center at all left (2). Nondual mere appearance, impersonally floating in the Infinite impersonal Universal Mind. Something reflecting about what it is (awareness,self-awareness, whatever) is already a separate-self (a manifestation, arising, moving within You. I-Thoughts/I-feelings have no dimension or form, but are still appearance/imagination/arising/"form"), and that hides the True Reality/Being. Too much movement... So yes, its tricky... Roger Thisdells stage model is nice. Since at stage 3 "Big-Mind" (Frank Yang called that God-state, easy to be reached via Psychedelics), one is already the nondual field (1). But getting the separate self mostly empty (Thisdell stage 4), and totally empty (Thisdell stage 5, centerlessness, Enlightenment), needs emptying out the separate-self completely. I have never seen one case where that was done mainly or purely with psychedelics. Not enough time in these states to empty out/transcend/understand the "high-speed-machine-gun-illusion-fire" of the separte-self-ego. But instead that lovely darling quite active appropriating all of the Nondual Infinity, Gods, Demons, ETs, n+1... Which sometimes is not for the faint-of-hearted. Ok, so, after mis-understanding the question the way I wanted in order to write about what I liked, lets come back to the original question: And why the "first" movement happened? 1.First, that is a question that presupposes duality. Form vs. emptiness, and also time. Which means it can't really be answered on the level of concepts. But lets try it anyway as good as possible, just so that it calms the remaining questions you have, so that you can rest in your True Being in a non-conceptual way so that the Big Bang can happen.. 2. Think in dimensions of Indras Net. Just because "your" perspective is "switched off" in cessation/deep sleep doesn't shut off all other perspectives. Understanding one single perspective ("yours") is enough to understand the structure of all perspectives/beings/nodes in Indras Net as Universal/Infinite Mind. Indras Net (which is also True You, but lets take the separte perspective) "continues" happily even if your perspective goes cessation/infinite/blank. 3. Who said it ever started? That is already a lot of Duality smuggled in. The past is imagined in its Totality right here and now. Its all a big illusion, including the past. True You is here right now, imagining all of it, fooling itself with such questions as you have (sorry to say, but you are close to the endgame boss, so I hope you forgive me). Get "rid" of the questions, let them dissolve in your infinite Nondual Being as mere movements of thought-arisings, and rest in your being in a non-conceptual way (Nonmeditation-Yoga). And sometimes softly ask yourself "who hears these words right now", but without effort and grasping. I have written extensively about Nonmeditation-Yoga (Mahamudra) somewhere else. Then the Big Bang can happen, Infinite Reality understanding itself. 4. Only Formlessness/emptiness/Infinity would be an asymetry. God has infinite potential of manifestation that apparently is being explored right here & now by "you" and "me" and "everyone else". To use a human metaphor: It is the nature of the Infinite to explore its potential, going from each creation cycle to the next. There have been many descriptions when coming out of cesstion/Nirvikalpha this original impulse for creation can be experienced. Not IN cessation (since there is nothing/pure infinity), but coming out of it. And, since its en vogue, lets close with ET: After so much Selling Water by the River, here the much more precise summary: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! - Basho

Yes. Becoming the infinite boundless Bubble is the first step (Godself). Its like extending the Ego (although very empty/murky at this point already) to infinity. Already nondual and quite awakened, but not truly IT, since its not impersonal and truly Pure Empty Infinite Consciousness. And that is why its not stable. Separate Self/Ego still clouding the True Impersonal Pure Being/Reality. Ripening in that state over a long time (hundreds of hours normally), then sudden Enlightenment/waking up can happen. Truly becoming the Infinite, True No Self = Infinite. And that infinite Reality always already WAS behind everything. Deep Identity Level Shift. Accessible later on sobre. Taking the wrong exit with the radioactive skull: Blowing up the God-Ego even more.... End of progress. Roger Thisdell has to excellent videos on that: One step more in the right direction: And game over:

Yes. That is what I can confirm, and that sequence one can also find in every spiritual tradition. The bold parts of your text are excellent. Welcome home to a home you never left. What was your practice/path? The normal sequence is: 1. Practice (or just Karma/"luck". But I would estimate from what I have seen that for 90% it was practice). Efficient way: Meditation + psychedelics + integration work + many other things. 2. Many Awakenings (some traditions already call these Enlightenments)/ into stabilizing awakened nondual and empty/impersonal Awareness states: Into all these aspects (some aspects of Absolute Reality show up, like emptiness or nondual unity, love, timelessness, Infinity, and so on... But the separate-self is STILL yet not fully seen through). The separate-self gets more and more transcended, ones identity more and more empty and more like Pure Awareness, and then it gets nondual/unity with the whole visual field/manifestation. These Awakenings (field getting nondual and ones identity more and more just empty awareness) are normally caused by the practice that makes accident-prone. And then comes the accident that is called Enlightenment (that can't be willed, since that would be a spearate-self wanting that which is already the case, and by doing that covering it), and for which practice makes accident-prone. Enlightenment tends to happen for most only in very specific Awakened States (nondual/unity AND impersonal/empty). For that, I have written elsewhere (Mahamudra stage 3 (Awakened states of nondual and empty) "One Taste-Yoga" to Mahamudra stage 4 (stabilizing these states without doing anything) "Yoga of Nonmeditation). Bliss: These awakened states are already very blissful without needing external experience for that. 3. (Full/Basis/Great) Enlightenment into the True Nature of Oneself: Infinite Reality = Infinite limitless Impersonal and totally Empty Consciousness CONTAINING Infinite Manifestation, in an infinite Unity/Totality. The essence of every appearance/manifestation is the same Suchness as Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. A deep identity level shift, away from a separate-self to being aware that "one" is and always was the Totality/Infinite Reality/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. Phase 2 is gradual(!), Phase 3 (Shift of Full Enlightenment) is a sudden and complete understanding into the eternal and immortal nature/essence of all of Reality (limitless) and ones True Self (Awareness/Nothingness containing all manifestation). It can not be mistaken, is sure, doesn't need any external validation (understanding it by being it, and IT is infinite/all there is and can be). It is totally beyond "any further" and beyond any need for any confirmation. It is self-evident. This insight/understanding/realization is "more assured/ultimately assured" (beyond any chance for being shaken again) because anything else can only possibly just be more phenomenal arising (including any sensory-arising like visual arisings, but also including any other (I-)thoughts/concepts/I-feelings/n+1). Why? To quote Ralston: IT IS YOU. Infinite Consciousness containg any possible appearances. Limitless. Infinite. Any limit would appear in IT. Empty. Any arising (tree, thought, I-feeling, anything) appears IN IT. Impersonal (onself can be nothing specific or personal, since one contains it all). And its Pure Awareness (without any location, without any second) itself. Potentially unaware if nothing arises. But always right here, never can not not be here, independent of whatever happens/appears IN IT. It is waking up. Its essence is understanding that the separate-self as independent "anything" DOESN'T exist (just appears as illusion IN THAT), and never existed (was always an illusion), and can/will never exist (even if in another life illusions-arisings will occure again in ones True Being/Reality. The Awakenings (2) are insights/understandings into aspects/properties of the nature of Reality/True Self/Infinite Consciousness. That then evolves, towards nondual/unity awakened states. And THEN the final big shift of full Enligthenment can happen, in which the nature of Infinite Reality/Ones True Identity as Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Reality is revealed. 4. Stabiling this Enlightenment, and letting it reorient the character top-down and back again towards love/openness/staying in nondual impersonal Suchness ("BEING the Totality"). Even then still, the separate-self character can still hijack the show (peak, plateau, permanent), but the separate-self-character and its associated suffering has lost its mirage-like seductive power. Its essence (Suchness/Infinite consciousness) is immediately seen when feeling into it. And that holds true for all building blocks of the separate self. So lapsing after Enlightenment is just a hang-over from a long time of illusion , and once noticed any emerging separate-self-arisings can be killed/transcended by just looking into it. Bliss: A lot and growing, since the awakened states now get even more stabilized and are always accessible. When True Nature is known, and if the separate-self-character "hijacks" again the show: Just look into these arisings and realize again their essence as manifestation IN the Infinite Reality/Consciousness that one really is, and return to what one really is. While after (only) Awakening(s) (stage 2), certain elements of the separate-self-character are not seen fully through, or are NOT understood. One of the last stages is a very nebulous empty separate-"something" that is already in nondual unity with everything manifesting. But there is still an "Understander" or "a not yet fully understander" or some "seeker" -arisings there.... Roger Thisdell stage 4 vs. stage 5. Stage 4: stage 5: Maybe that is helpful for some. Please don't beat me. Selling Water by the River

Awesome! Somebody doing the "real" work of transcending the "bugs" of the separate-self for real, not just taking a brief look behind the curtain Javfly33, please allow me some hijacking of this topic in my ususal brazen style. Taking it in daily life is where real freedom starts: When one is confident that this can be done on any thought-arising and self-concept. Because one knows it from experience, also when the real heavy shocks of life come visit... And the fullness/love comes when one has the same confidence of doing this in daily life "everywhere" "one" "goes", and one is able to a) just cut each thought/I-thought/I-feeling arising in oneself b) or not, because its useful (character). Then, the bliss and love of these Awakened Awareness states begin to flow, and it all gets nondual and later infinite. Want to know how that Empty Pure Infinite Impersonal Consciousness can feel like, today and 1000 years ago, when one goes fully "cutting" each and every arising? Try to feel his (Adi Da) internal continuum and emotional state. He doesn't flinch or react. Because there is nothing inside capturing attention, but his attention/focus has relaxed/dissolved and he IS the whole Infinite Field of the Opening of Reality. Once enlightened, one doesn't have to do this (one can act fully normal), but one can. And if one is not fully awake, one can't. Not this long, this empty. That is how Koans are answered and checked btw. When in that state, one can say Raspberry and pass. That is what the brain waves do then: And don't do the Adi Da show, way uncool.... With Adi Da, one can see how much one can f*** up , to quote Ken Wilber, even with Enlightenment. So better have some conditioning of the "cooler" variant ready before crossing over... makes a more happy lucid dream after the untimely early demisal of anything separate moving in oneself. And if one really needs the cult, the awakened states of the video above attract.... because its not mental mumbo jumbo, but every being can feel it. And one would be quite insane to not want these states too. I am just no aware of a better video on youtube showing that, that why I chose that guy, not because its a smart or cool way to unpack ones self-realization. So, it is like riding the wave of emerging thought/feeling-capsules, which emerge than with quite very high speed (20 different arisings per second+). When ones attention is fast enough, and oneself familiar enough with all separate-self-identity arisings/tricks, one can do that. But of course, to get there, one has to work through and transcend any core-identity or trauma that would normally hpynotize oneself, and capture ones attention. Because guess what Maya is going to throw at you? Just to keep you nice and deluded in the illusion? Some juicy core-identity, narcissism, self-grandiosity, or trauma of course... And after a certain time having that awareness ongoing in daily life, it all gets nice and comfy nondual. Then, the reamaining agent/separate self coordinating this meditation (a very murky transparent nothing, but contradictory, because it sometimes thinks it controls the thing, or is proud on that achievement, and what not. Roger Thisdell stage 4) at some point realizes that this riding the wave of the thought/feeling stream can be done automatically by Awakaned Awareness itself, and gets out of the way (stage 4 Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). And then it goes from Nondual to Full Empty Pure Impersonal Consciousness (for example Thistell stage 5, below), "everything" arising in it, including the remains of the functional character side, but this time doing its thing without a separate self getting in the way. Pure Impersonal Consciousness, or Infinite Awakened Awareness, can run the show all by itself, better than the old one ever could. And welcome home! And then Javfly33, maybe consider doing such a video as Adi Da, but in a cool style, without the cult Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: Critical Point for me concerning taking it into daily life, and staying on top of the wave of the mind-stream and its emerging thoughts, using the mindstream itself as meditation object (but not in a mindfulness way of being mindful OF these thoughts, but cutting them at will with high enough speed to catch them all or riding along with full awareness of the object-character of the arisinsg of the mindstream arising in me). Meditation training makes a) able to cut the thought/feeling by looking into it, and b) doing that fast enough. Power & Speed so to say. " Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also..."

For the topic of Salvijus and Breakingthewall: Causal States vs. states of void/formlessness and totality of manifestation (Whiteout,Infinity) at any time (low causal). Yours truly is a bit an "Integration aficionado" of different systems, just to get to the deep structures of the different paths up the mountain. Wilbers High Causal is the Abyss of Absolute Nothingness, Cessation, Nirvikalpa. The passing of that often enough opens the door for getting empty enough to maintain constant Nondual Realization in daily life. Or to directly intuit the essence of any manifestation, Nothingness, Infinite Reality. Wilbers Low Causal: The Totality of manifestation (Whiteout,Infinity) at any time (low causal). @Breakingthewall, what the void-state that you describe is I can't tell based just based on your description. It doesn't sound like a black-out like Cessation, doesn't have its effects, and doesn't fit the ladder described above. But the pool of causal states is wide... Descriptions of cessation one can find at Ingram, Thisdell and Frank Yang. Wilber also describes the Whiteout somewhere else, but I don't have that in my files/notes. Here are some quotes and perspectives from Ken Wilbers system on the topic. Wilber normally provides a very good Ontology. Maybe you find that interesting. My personal perspective is on one of my last posts on causal states, which I don't want to repeat here. Excerpt 1: And from Wilber - Sex,Ecology, Spirituality: And what is also very useful: Wilber, Waves, streams, states, and self: An outline of an integral psychology. And Wilber, Religion of the Future. And what both of you probably will really like is Halaw, God is Nothingness, and Wolinsky, "The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute". On both books I have written something in this thread: The High Causal States are always easy to spot in descriptions. Passing through these fully empty and impersonal states is in many systems the opening gate to entering the stages Nondual Realization, because states are known where the separate self and any form of Duality just is not. The Nondual Realization/Full Enlightenment (NOT only the Unity with the Visual Field), but also the Impersonal Emptiness of the High Causal States integrated are also easy to spot in any description/system We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche Anything from subtle states to low causal states can be quite a Jungle in systems/descriptions which is to be expected, because here the infinite manifestation begins. not only the dimensions/realties experienced can vary, but the interpretation varies with the conceptual system the subject travels... And: Hic sunt dracones Aliens Maybe that is interesting & useful for you. Wilbers ontological system worked very well for me to orient myself in often very differing systems/descriptions. See for example Lex Hixon, Coming Home. The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions. The variety of the description of paths and states is vast, and the universal deep structures often hard to spot. Selling Water by the River

I had to watch the videos from Roger Thisdell several times to get his style of definitions and explaining. Like with most deep stuff that is really good. It is nice to understand several different systems/approaches/path descriptions, makes a more integral approach. I like to see who explained which stages/topics best, and integrate that. I had to read for example Pointing Out the Great Way (at least the important chapters) I guess over 10 times over a period of 10 years+. Every cycle doing that, with more meditation experience, I understood more. One can not do a deep dive on everything, that is why a certain intuition of what is really good/deep/wise/true can be really helpful. Selling Water by the River

So, lets go through it. Number of Pictures 1 5 9 2 6 10 3 7 11 4 8 12 1: Identity with THAT (That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1). Roger Thisdell stage 1: 2: Wiping/Process of Transcending the Identity with any self-concept (Body-Mind. Ego. World. God. Whatever. n+1) 3: I AM (identity with being, but nothing specific anymore. "Opaque" witness, not fully empty) Roger Thisdell Stage 2 4: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the BEING anything at all 5: There is still some Identity: I. But nothing specific at all, pretty empty. A pretty empty "Transparent" Witness. Can be quite nondual (One Mind/the whole visual field. One (but a not empty one), united with the nondual visual field. Many Psychedelic Experiences throw one here. Nondual, but not fully empty, Sense of transparent/pretty empty Self/Witness still well and alive. Roger Thisdell stage 3. 6: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the transparent Witness 7: One is No-Self. Nothing. Buuut: Identity with No-Self/Nothing, the perceiving or understanding of being Nothing. Still one arising/subtle identity/concept too much. A Portal to the Absolute. Awareness OF Emptiness. Awareness OF Being. Any Awarness OF is still not fully nondual. Even if Awareness OF Emptiness/Being/Infinite/whatever n+1 . Psychedelics can bring one here, if "one" gets already quite empty, but Individuality (very subtle/murky here) is still there. Roger Thisdells Stage 4: 8/9/10/11: Understanding and letting go even this last self-referential concept/thought/identity 12: Nothing. Pure Suchness. Infinite Consciousness so empty that there is not even a Watcher/Awarerer/Identity with No-Self. Final Enlightenment. Ultimate Reality itself. Only then, daily life is nondual, infinite, enlightened. And the bliss of ones True Being, NOTHINGNESS, flows freely. Really no separate self/individuality left. Only then one is really the whole Enchilada without any filters/lenses/localization of any separate self/individuality. The character keeps continuing doing its thing in ones True Self, Reality itself. The price of that: Any self-reflective awareness of being anything (separate) at all is transcended, and can be seen happening within oneself. Understood, and no longer believed, mostly just cut off (that Illusion again). And that is not even being the "No-Self Self" of Thisdells stage 4, or picture 7. To be fully everything in daily life (fully nondual) without any separation, one needs to be fully nothing at all. Totally empty. Any separate self, however subtle, fully gone. And the last remnants of Individuality or separate self can be very very subtle. Only that gets the permanent bliss and love flowing that has got its home in the Nondual True Self. "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche" Roger Thisdell Stage 5 And by the way, any just conceptual identity with anything (The THAT of I am THAT), That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1), even with God/Reality/whatever, is picture 1 of the path in daily life. I AM THAT (That=God/Reality/whatever). Because it is normally not a nondual awakened state in daily life, but just some ideas taken away from a trip that got one to Nonduality. A hang-over of the trip, while being currently not at all in an awakened or nondual state. And hopefully it is at least this (a hang-over from a trip), and not just some pure conceptual trip without any change in states towards at least a bit awakening, and not just a pure head-trip. And actually a much worser starting place, because the lovely concept of being God blows up ones sense of self (THAT) tremendously. Neti Neti didn't get easier with making THAT bigger than it was before.... Pour encourager les autres.... Sorry Selling Water by the River