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I also believe using both is best and most efficient. At the final stages of meditation, one can dissolve these last and very subtle lenses. When taking for example the Mahamudra-system, which I consider as the most sophisticated system on the planet (together with Dzogchen), the Yoga of One Taste (advanced practice, 3rd stage in Mahamudra system) makes the visual field boundless, infinite and mere appearance/lucid. Basically the effect that many psychedelics have. And no, that is not yet Enlightenment. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=yoga of one taste&author=Water by the River The final lenses of deception/illusion are not yet dissolved at stage 3. But here we are already on very trippy terrain, visual field nondual, boundless and infinite and mere appearance. And now comes the kicker: stage 4, Nonmeditation Yoga automizes the techniques done at stage 3 in such a way that even the meditator can be dissolved. There is no longer a separate-anything doing anything, the meditation does itself. Awakening, or Awakened Awareness (nondual, boundless, infinite, groundless, and impersonal, or not only personal), does the meditation. As long as someone does the meditation, the illusion with the dream-character is still well and alive, even if its nondual and what not. A nondual dream. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River What happens at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga can no longer be fully described. But it can be understood what happens or happened once it happens. And it takes a loooong time at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga, at least for most, until crossing over to Enlightenment happens. No other. No you. Just Infinite Consciousness/Reality, an Infinite Ocean of Awareness, its essence forever unchanged. Eternal. Always having been the case. The former separate-self just an illusion. And until one gets the hundreds or thousands of hours (if one is not a prodigy) in these states to make it to the big bang, if one tries to do that with psychedelics, one has ones brain fried long before. And a God-complex on top if one doesn't start on the humble side from the beginning (which few do), since the ego projects itself already busily on the nondual infinite field, see stage 3. And if one has bad luck, ET comes along and gives a seductive smile... But that is another topic. And the limitations/problems of meditation practice: Getting to Nonduality, stage 3. Takes a looong time, and many things can be implemented incorrectly. Then, meditation practice NEVER leads to Nonduality,boundlessness-infnite and mere appearance. That happens to 98%+ of meditators, because the meditation techniques used are so inefficient that multiple thousand of hours of hardcore head-against-the-wall meditation would be needed... Few are made for that. Mahamudra on the other side can be used efficiently in daily life if done correctly. Without Mahamudra Pointing out the Great Way style I would have gotten nowhere, and even with that I read the book 15 times over 10 years to get it. To get a nondual state take enough shrooms et voila. To experience Infinity take some 5-MeO et voila. It prooves that its real. Most meditators without psychedelics give up before that. One knows if one does something correct with meditation if these psychedelic-induced awakenings happen from meditation. Hope I have answered all your questions. Selling Water by the River

Feels like coming home, doesn't it? Or like drowning in the River, killing "me" softly... Forgive me some comments, but here are some practices that helped me a lot at that stage to make that Nondual Awakening nice&stable: The only missing ingridients are letting these states of Infinite Nondual Awakend Awareness ripen (they ripen by themself since the illusion has become instable. The path starts showing itself to itself now). Yet, one can put a blow-torch (Nonmeditation-Yoga in Mahamudra for example, see below) on the remnants of the illusion, to evaporate them faster... At some point, the only illusion still arising is the "one" of the one realizing all of that ("realizing" Nonduality and mere imagined appearance and so on). Then, the Impersonal Infinite Totality can wake up to itself, exactly when the "one/personal individuality/being separate/former separate-self" is seen through as mere concept/persistant illusion, a bundle of ideas/concepts/I-thoughts/I-feelings, and never having been anything more than that - and then the illusion drops away, being replaced by the Infinite Vastness of True Being/Reality, realizing itself as it truly is. That happens when every thought/feeling/and appearance of the "outer" world is realized as mere appearance hovering in Infinite Nondual Vastness/Being/Nothingnes/Emptiness. Then IT can be realized. And realizing that despite the illusion of separation has been appearing (as illusion), THIS Infinite Being/Reality/Universal Mind has always been the case, despite being temporarily been covered by coulds of separation-illusion/ignorance. There are teachings for speeding up that process (ripening from Nonduality (Yoga of One Taste in Mahamudra) with remnants of a separate-self to true impersonal Infinite Being/Reality (Nonmeditation Yoga in Mahamudra). I found these very helpful. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation yoga&author=Water by the River Pretty sold out by the River

But kidding aside, this is the Zen version of the key stage from going what some call Nonduality/Buddhism/rodents to Enlightenment. Beginning Nonduality is still in the dream, a subtle self merged in unity with the visual field, exchanging the dual dream for the nondual dream. But still a dream. When this Unity-self gets thinner and thinner, more and more transcended (Thisdell stage 4 to Thisdell stage 5), then: Everything - "every vestige of self-awareness", or any subtle I-feeling/I-thought/duality (all subtle illusions) have to be seen through and transcended with automized high-speed awarenes (speed, because these illusions arise extremly fast towards the end) and familiarity (strength, because there are some very subtle "feelings" and other arisings that constitute the separate-self) with these subtle obscurations. Speed & Strength of Awareness (courtesy to Frank Yang). And that has to be done automatic, no doer/agent doing it anymore ("Nonmeditation Yoga"). And then at the end it can really break open, in a way that can't be anticipated: You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. Literally. Their essence. Before that stages, afterwards nowhere to go... Infinite Being.

The ability to hold the boundless infinite nondual Awareness will grow. In Pointing out the Great Way it is called Postsamadhi Meditation. This boundless infinite timeless Awakened Awareness (as Daniel Brown calls it) is impersonal, or Awareness in at by itself. It is not necessarily individual consciousness, but awakened nondual boundless impersonal consciousness. Non-separated, non-personal. Awake. With Nonmeditation Yoga, you can let Awakened Awareness hold the view and do the meditation. "You" just get out of the way. Same holds for daily activity. Awakened Awareness is more intelligent than normal ego-consciousness, since filters & lenses are removed. Daniel Brown once said: "I let Awakened Awareness do it (I think in the context of that statement writing a book), and I just get out of the way." That is how it feels. Reading and analytical thinking is about the most difficult activitiy while keeping mindfullness/Awakened Awareness, but it can be done. "The reappearance of the mind's spontaneous relative activity at this extraordinary level of practice [Nonmeditation Yoga] brings continuous supreme bliss (bde steng). Because mindfulness/recognition now has its own force (shugs), it goes on by itself without any effort whatsoever." "At this final stage awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] spreads rapidly so that all possible emanations of the mind become the embodiment of awakened wisdom. The term emanation ofnothingcaptures both the relative and the ultimate dimensions of truth, respectively. All the mind's relative activity becomes the play (rol du) of the always-here mind. Where ordinary thoughts and perceptions once were, "only the great fire of understanding burns" (TN, p. 536)." "Blended practice occurs when you are forever mindful of the real nature/clear-light mind throughout the four behavioral conditions. (TN, p. 547)" Pointing out the Great Way, Brown Daniel Brown, Video below, starting 57min 40 sec: Map 2: On stabilizing Awakening [or Awakened (Nondual) Awareness] Map 3 would be to Liberation / Enlightenment. Map 1 is to Awakening/Awakened Awareness. In my opinion, and that of Daniel Brown, the most sophisticated meditation/training system on the planet. Daniel Brown has received the clearance from Menri Trizin to translate all the previous secret teachings, including Tummo/Energetic Inner Fire Yoga with or without consort, Treckö and Togal (Visionary practices to get rid of the solidity of the visual field), dark retreat, dream yoga, and so on and on. And lots of other really unique techniques that neither Zen nor Theravada, nor any other tradition, have. and the result: The timeline to Enlightenment. Done correctly with energetic practices added a few years...

Yes, you can't find it because True Self has no location, it is nonlocal, centerless, boundless and infinite. The whole infinite nondual field/vastness. What can be found are (bodily-) sensations/feelings like a center/solidity, imposed limitations, imagined boundaries of the visual field (imagination of boundary with somehow somatic sensation of boundary on top), and a lot of thoughts/feelings/concept of being human. Yet, all of that can be seen as an object, arising IN ones consciousness, floating in Infinite Being. But there is no short-cut. It needs practice and seeing into the nature of all thoughts (emptiness/consciousness, which makes them dissolve and cut off) and into all bodily solidities/centers has to be done again and again, since the Gestalt of the illusion reassembles itself very fast. Neti Neti, not this, not that. Or not only this or only that. It takes a long time to get to nondual states (Thisdell stage 3), where a felt fast spaciousness open up and nonduality (still with a murky self left) starts. Good news is: Beginning here bliss starts flowing when in these states just by being in them, and the path becomes truly wonderful. That is beginning freedom. Frank Yang described his Enlightenment when his two last items that didn't conform to the enlightened mindstream were realized (after a long time of removing pretty much everything before, Roger Thisdell stage 2&3&4): all bodily sensations parading as a center or solidity were gone and dissolved (head, chest,...). Just vast spaciousness without a center. the cluster of sensations/thoughts claiming to be the watching all meditation-process of shutting off each thought-arising were seen as also mere clusters of thoughts. Basically also for him the crossing over to Enlightenment, or understanding True Infinite Being/Reality/Consciousness happened when the mindstream conformed to the enlightened mindstream. Then Infinite Being/Reality awakens to its True Being in that perspective/being/mindstream. Good. That is the thorn with which to remove the thorn. But also notice that this thought ""self, I cannot find you, where are you" is again a thought (or a cluster of thoughts/sensations/feelings) claiming ownership/identity, which creates another illusion-identity. But it has to be done like that, until that is automized. Then one switches to automatic meditation (Nonmeditation-Yoga). Bon voyage Selling Water by the River

Ok, I try. But be aware this is extremely difficult to do it in a monological form via text, and hardly complete. Good news is: At that stage the path shows itself to itself if one just continues with the right meditation/awareness techniques. The illusion-mechanisms pop up one by one. If applying a good understanding of what will show up, the process can be fastened. It is like adding a blow-torch to the burning down of the illusion-building. So, here we go: Any thought implying I/me. "I-feeling" any understanding you have ("I" understand) any doubt ("I" doubt) all of it very subtle and fast forms of feeling separate. Or thinking that. Very fast & very subtle. Way faster than a thought elaborated over several second. Tenths/fractions of a second... Speed of awareness is crucial, that is being trained here And strength of awareness, to be able to also cut off core separate-self identities and suffering/resistance. Reckognizing that, not getting hypnotized by that, cutting it off by looking into its nature (empty consciousness). and since its very hard to tell the difference if a thought-arising is laced with individuality/separation/identity: Cutting off all of them, just for training. Yet, one can at other times also maintain ones awareness during practical daily life/thoughts. And memory of the past: It is being imagined right now, appears as complete "chunk" out of Infinite Consciousness/Being, and then gets elaborated in thought (which is very slow compared to how it emerges "fully" formed. That is truly a mindf*** when your awareness gets fast enough to spot for the first time how the complete past emerges immediately as "whole block" and then is slowly elaborated, fooling one to believe one is that "I" having this memory and thoughts. You see then how each any anything is just emerging to fool oneself. That is an aspect that Leo emphasizes with his concept of God-Realization. The past is radically imagined right now, there is no past. There is only an Infinite Formless eternal "Field" modulating itself to give the appearance of a past. Same for the "future". You don't have a past, You are an Infinite Vastness that is able to make up the past on the fly, and then have thoughts/feelings-arisings that "believe" that. Yet, that Infinite Vastness/Being CAN UNDERSTAND, and so it can understand that the past is imagined on the fly here and now. That is a major understanding/building block of Enlightenment, or seeing that separation from it all (separate self) is just an imagined arising within oneself. One is not a human, but the Infinite Vastness/Being (which is luckily also always here, aka immortal/eternal, can't go anywhere infinite Nothingness with nothing outside of it) imagining a human and all its elements moving/appearing within itself. So it is Duality gone (visual field nondual) -> Nondual boundless infinite (boundary of the field is gone) -> Infinite solidity of "external" visual field is gone, replacing solidity with mere groundless lucid appearance -> imagined illusion/lucidity/non-material, mere imagined empty hologram like appearance. time is gone (as described above, past imagined right now) -> always here, never not here Infinite Mind/Being. Eternal, immortal, absolutely fundamental, all is appearing and arising in it, always. space is gone (imagined IN the infinte vastness of True Being) -> space doesnt exist outside, space is imagined in oneself, the vastness of Infinity (which is not 3d space), and there is no 3D-space (or any space at all, non-euclidian, 4D, whatever) possibly existing outside of your Infinite Being. No outside. Infinite. All there is. Space is not self-existing outside of ones own nondual infinite being. It is imagined by it. What is behind your face? "beyond" the visual field. Not (3d-)space, but the Infinite (Being). -> spaceless, dimensionless, infinite. Containing all possible dimensions and realms, high and low. all of that is imagined/constructed/manifested right here right now in ones nondual True eternal Being, Infinite Consciousness/Being. -> A mirage/illusion appearing in ones Infinite Being, giving rise to the illusion of a human life within it. Another way to say that is: In Pointing out the Great Way, Brown is one statement: If everything (1) all appearance of the world/visual field is seen as mere appearance (empty) hovering lucid and hologram like in Infinite Vastness (that can still be stage 3&4 Thisdell with separate-self well and alive, and that is why that is accesible via psychedelics) AND (2) each and any thought/feeling arising/"internal" mindstream event (including everything one believed oneself to be, I-feeling, I-thoughts, the whole history, the whole asking what is Reality/True Being, ALL of it) is seen as empty arising in Infinite Being/Nothingness/Consciousness. which means that ones mindstream is then conforming to the enlighened mindstream, or close to how Infinite Reality really is. Then Enlightenment can happen. But it can't be forced, since that would be thoughts with a thinker identified with them, with I-feelings, wanting something. Infinite Being/Consciousness has to understand itself, with no artifical activity/separate self trying to force it. At that point, the properties of the mindstream above can be automized, and this automatic meditation/mindfulness can be protected ("mindfulness without [artificial activity]"), element (1) of Nonmeditation Yoga, see Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). One doesnt't focus on anything (which Daniel Brown calls particularizing). This picking out something specific with attention (particularizing, the fastest process of the mind, way faster than thinking) is what creates Duality, or better disrupts the original nonduality. Instead, one watches how particularization happens, and transcends that in a way that the boundless nondual unity with/of the visual field is not interrupted. Element (2) of Nonmeditation Yoga, "do not take to mind". and then maintains and waits in that state. Meditation and Mindfulness in these awakened nondual states does itself. Enlightenment can't be forced, because who would do the forcing? Instead, the Infinite Vastness/Being can understand/realize itself (or its True Nature) when conditions are exactly right. That is then Enlightenment. Bye bye illusion-human, hello Infinite Being/Reality "having" a human,. Making the mindstream conform to the enlightened mindstream so that Enlightenment can happen is very important, because that part can be done by intelligent and informed practice. And that is why an efficient system is way faster, more efficient for most than and way more pleasent than a brute force approach like sitting an staring at the wall (brute force method), concentration or Koan-style. more likely to work than betting on just by having the right Karma and enough of the mere-appearance-infinite-character of the visual field and thought/feeling space in place already (Ramana, Anamanda Ma), and then some contemplation based on the already very much conforming mindstream Only those who needed to walked the steps can tell about the steps. Those are on top can mainly tell about how the properties of the roof are/what Truth is, but its more difficult to talk about steps that didn't have to be taken/climbed because they were already in place. The low success rate of the Enlightenment-endeavours in my perspective is due to mostly using brute-force-methods (which need lots and lots of willpower and pushing through negative emotions on the pillow) with no clear map of the steps of the path and the lots of cul-de-sacs of the path, or prodigy-approaches of telling about nature of True Being, but not offering a method path for average-gifted persons (Ramana for example). So, conforming to the enlightened mindstream mainly is: (1) Visual Field nondual, mere appearance, "hovering" in Infinite Vasteness/Infinity, being manifested/imagined right now (2) every thought arising/feeling arising is seen as emerging out of True Being/consciousness, made out of it, moving in it. Especially all thoughts/feelings relating to I/me. Feels impersonal, no separate indiduality found in any of that. And based on that the separate self (what one thought oneself to be) can be realized as mere flow of colours/appearances/feelings/thoughts (which have a very coherent and well made structure/Gestalt, and therefor are extremly hypnotizing and seem believeable) appearing in Oneself (Infinite Being), including the whole past, and that one IS the always here Infinite Eternal Field of Being/Consciousness. And the former separate-self is like the tree-picture in this wikipedia-article (below): A representation for something that appears (the tree), but has no independend existence apart from True Being (which is the nondual infinite eternal vastness of Being right here and now, with the body and mindstream having no different priority or separation from all that is). A well made illusion. The picture of the tree concept doesn't point to a real tree outside of consciousness (an object), but to shapes/colours of an imagined trees within Infinite Consciousness, not to real trees that exist outside of Infinite Being, self-existing/indepdently existing outside of consciousness. There are no trees, just the concept of them, and some imagined colours/forms/sensations giving the Gestalt of an appearance of atree. Same way, there is no human/separate-self beyond the appearance-Gestalt, and the concept pointing to such an imagined self-existing entity. There is only Infinite Being, not the human (which only appears in Infinite Being). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept There always ever was, is and can be the Totality of (true) Being, self-aware, perceptions perceiving themselves. Either with reflective-self-consciousness arising (like normal human mind stream), or just mere awareness of the Totality without the self-consciousness part, perceptions perceiving themselves. Aware, but not separate. The non reflective-pure awareness of this vast field/being is more fundamental than the temporary appearing self-consciousness (with I-feelings I-thoughts). The Awareness is the Sun, the reflective (self-) consciousness (I-feeling, I-thoughts) is the reflected light of the Sun on the planets. Basically, its replacing ones old mistaken identity (imagined false illusion separate-self) with the correct identity, Infinite timeless/eternal (always here) Being. The flow of the human mindstream with its practical thoughts and so on happen within Ones True Being. One has a human, but is not only the human. Thoughts or feelings of separation are known to be illusion. When that shift happen, this realization is always available by just reaching out, or immediately always present. The visual field IS mere appearance and lucid/hologram/groundless, it IS infinite, eternal always here. Thoughts and feelings ARE just floating in it, made out of it, and "it" is onself, nondual. And that can be felt all the time or by just checking/moving attention there. It can never really be unseen. Reality/True Being understands itself. It is beyond doubt, unshakable, deathless/immortal always here. And that is the kicker: One/True Being is literally immortal and infinite. Not the ego, but True Being with its nature of Awareness. One can never die, and nothing outside one self can truly threaten one, because there is no outside of oneself. Seriousness and danger is replaced with laughter and security. Resting in True Being generates bliss, even when approaching it in Thisdells stage 4. Its a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop: Cutting off thoughts, field nondual, bliss flows. Literally. And that reinforces the stability of Nondual mere appearance visual field even more. Awakening enchances awakening. Suffering/resistance to what is no longer grips in any form since a long time. If it moves within ones being, is seen and let go. Would the inherent bliss of True Being ever be exchanged with grasping for being an ET seeing more of manifested reality, but suffers because its not enlightened? (more on that later). That is a "hard" shift, it is not just thinking differently. It is for sure not "I am God and imagine all reality", which is just cosplay. It is Reality understanding itself, Infinite Being waking up to itself. What can do the understanding of that? Reality/Being/Infinite Consciousness. Waking up to its True Nature. That last shift is knowing what one really is, and that understanding/realization runs over a short period of time. Waking up. Happens only once. And is final. Is beyond doubt (since these would only be more thoughts/arisings moving within Reality and subsiding into it). The shifts/Awakenings leading towards it go over a longer time, many years. And then of course there are infinite forms of manifestation, ET n+1, with vastly more understanding of the relative manifestations, basking in their understanding of the imagination process, different dimensions, higher realms, non-euclidian space, completely other alien manifestation realms. Humans look like ants compared to that for sure. These beings have been reported since millenia, in all cultures, all times. Reality-creating and maintaining Gods (Brahman, Shiva, Vishnu and endless other names for them). But it is the same True YOU, the only Being or Awareness in existence. The same being. There is nothing outside of it. No other (being, God, alien). And one can have an unenlightened ET, not having realized what Reality really is. Beings of higher realms are not necessarily enlightened. That tale is as old as the spiritual traditions. Although many of these beings of higher planes are enlightened. An unenlightened ET (which by definition has separate-self-elements not transcended/seen through in real time, which are by definition nothing other than the elements resisting the now, or suffering in other words) is a rather sad and suffering figure compared to a being who has realized its True Infinite Being. Calling the lower higher, and the higher lower. Whose modus operandi is that again? But lets not end too serious: It is all an illusion-game, "nobody" really gets lost forever, and Maya smiles lovingly on all not-really-(self)-existing-but-just-appearing children of Reality, humans and ETs alike. Although it can appear & feel very real & serious. Selling Water by the River

Thisdells stage 3 Big Self/God self to stage 4 No Self. Now the ripening of stage 4 to stage 5 True No Self is left. Nonmeditation-Yoga to disassemble the last remnants of the separate-self/individuality/subtle and fast I-feelings and I thoughts to truly become the Infinite Totality. That stage is tricky, because active effort is often counter-productive "artifical activity". Many items have to fall in place until stage 4 ripens and conforms to the enlightened mind. Luckily, the path tends to show itself to itself. But you can put a blow-torch to the whole separateness burning down anyway, accelerating the progress. Getting rid of these remnants is what open up boundless Nonduality on a permanent basis without psychedelics. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/let-s-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/meta-awareness-modes-of-perceptions-super-positions-cycling-insight-stages-and-boundarylessness https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/throwing-my-hat-in-the-jhana-ring Hope that is useful. With this information you can align the Jhana path with the descriptions of my original post. Basically, at that stage of the path one can't force it, and Jhana Concentration style becomes less efficient. Something like Mahamudra/Non-Meditation or Dzogchen becomes more efficient at the last stages. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River But not before this stage, shortly before the finishing line.

You are right that this is the last piece of the puzzle. Self-Awareness (bold marking by me), or awareness of its own existence is indeed NOT the Absolute. Its the last illusion... I wouldn't say that for Awareness (since here we would be on slippery terrain), but for self-awareness/self-consciousness definitely. Massaro summarized it nicely. Maybe watch that video a few times, and then the other parts of the Infinity-series: Awareness is "always there" (or not, since its beyond existing and non-existing), at least as a potential for sentience (if nothing arises, aka cessation, deep sleep), but if there is nothing to perceive there is no (self-)-consciousness. Unaware Deep Sleep, Cessation. But it doesnt really make sense to talk about awareness/consciousness if there is no perception, since then there is also no self-consciousness or self-awareness. Its pure Infinity/Absolute. The clap of the one hand. THAT Reality/Being which can be unaware of itself is what you are. Not the (self-)awareness with which one identifies, that is one of the last lenses/filters of illusion. You can be nothing at all, unaware of yourself (since there is no self-reflective self yet), with the potential for sentience. In your case, I assume getting that is the last building block to Enlightenment and fully getting what you are. Without fully realizing that, there is a subtle murky "nothing" self (Roger Thisdell stage 4). Thisdells stage 5 (another video) is then the resolve of the contradictions of stage 4. Everything else after this True Being/Absolute comes later: Manifestation, Infinite Field of mere appearance, gods & humans & aliens and the whole shebang. The "I am self-Awareness/Consciousness" feeling/thought/Gestalt (very subtle, hard to spot, the end boss so to say) is the last illusion/filter/lense of the last separate-self that can be constructed. And since it can be seen, since it changes, its an object, temporary, moving in True You. Leaves us with the point who/what realized all of that? Reality/Being realizes itself. And that is called Enlightenment. Its not personal, its not anything separate. It is Reality comprehending itself. Jac O'Keffee: "We're left with consciousness that cannot know itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually can't know itself. However, it is known. You can drop back there and it is known, but you can't bring yourself there or your capacities to know it. It's almost like it's so fundamental that it can't turn around and see itself. It doesn't see itself. That's too much movement. That's movement such as space, time and identification and me, myself, I, and the building of my movie that happens". And maybe most important. It is not an it, or an Absolute, or anything "third person singular"-pronoun at all that "has" "Awareness" and explodes into manifestation. IT IS You. True You. With a big Y. That becomes totally obvious when the whole field is a mere appearance floating in Nothingness/Infinity (1), and you are "It" since there is no separate anything left at all, no center at all left (2). Nondual mere appearance, impersonally floating in the Infinite impersonal Universal Mind. Something reflecting about what it is (awareness,self-awareness, whatever) is already a separate-self (a manifestation, arising, moving within You. I-Thoughts/I-feelings have no dimension or form, but are still appearance/imagination/arising/"form"), and that hides the True Reality/Being. Too much movement... So yes, its tricky... Roger Thisdells stage model is nice. Since at stage 3 "Big-Mind" (Frank Yang called that God-state, easy to be reached via Psychedelics), one is already the nondual field (1). But getting the separate self mostly empty (Thisdell stage 4), and totally empty (Thisdell stage 5, centerlessness, Enlightenment), needs emptying out the separate-self completely. I have never seen one case where that was done mainly or purely with psychedelics. Not enough time in these states to empty out/transcend/understand the "high-speed-machine-gun-illusion-fire" of the separte-self-ego. But instead that lovely darling quite active appropriating all of the Nondual Infinity, Gods, Demons, ETs, n+1... Which sometimes is not for the faint-of-hearted. Ok, so, after mis-understanding the question the way I wanted in order to write about what I liked, lets come back to the original question: And why the "first" movement happened? 1.First, that is a question that presupposes duality. Form vs. emptiness, and also time. Which means it can't really be answered on the level of concepts. But lets try it anyway as good as possible, just so that it calms the remaining questions you have, so that you can rest in your True Being in a non-conceptual way so that the Big Bang can happen.. 2. Think in dimensions of Indras Net. Just because "your" perspective is "switched off" in cessation/deep sleep doesn't shut off all other perspectives. Understanding one single perspective ("yours") is enough to understand the structure of all perspectives/beings/nodes in Indras Net as Universal/Infinite Mind. Indras Net (which is also True You, but lets take the separte perspective) "continues" happily even if your perspective goes cessation/infinite/blank. 3. Who said it ever started? That is already a lot of Duality smuggled in. The past is imagined in its Totality right here and now. Its all a big illusion, including the past. True You is here right now, imagining all of it, fooling itself with such questions as you have (sorry to say, but you are close to the endgame boss, so I hope you forgive me). Get "rid" of the questions, let them dissolve in your infinite Nondual Being as mere movements of thought-arisings, and rest in your being in a non-conceptual way (Nonmeditation-Yoga). And sometimes softly ask yourself "who hears these words right now", but without effort and grasping. I have written extensively about Nonmeditation-Yoga (Mahamudra) somewhere else. Then the Big Bang can happen, Infinite Reality understanding itself. 4. Only Formlessness/emptiness/Infinity would be an asymetry. God has infinite potential of manifestation that apparently is being explored right here & now by "you" and "me" and "everyone else". To use a human metaphor: It is the nature of the Infinite to explore its potential, going from each creation cycle to the next. There have been many descriptions when coming out of cesstion/Nirvikalpha this original impulse for creation can be experienced. Not IN cessation (since there is nothing/pure infinity), but coming out of it. And, since its en vogue, lets close with ET: After so much Selling Water by the River, here the much more precise summary: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! - Basho

Long enough time in that state you are training in will open the window for the shift towards Realization. You already perceive the facets of the elephant quite clearly and unmistakenly (Infinite, no concepts, Reality itself, unmistakenly,...). Long enough burning of all remnants of the separate self/ego-clouds in clear brazing Sun of your Empty Pure Impersonal Infinite Nature will clear the last clouds away. And when "you" rest in that and need to do nothing (because who would do it) to maintain these Awakened Impersonal Infinite Nondual Awakened States of Awareness, then suddenly it can become totally clear. The last remnants of the separate self are very very subtle, way more subtle than concepts or I-feelings. They need to get seen as object and transcended/cut off again and again. Its like learning a high-speed search and reckognition task of not looking through these filters/lenses/centers, but seeing them moving in True You. When its pure enough, the shift will happen. When you have gone this path, you know and have learned how to cut off/transcend/let go of all these clouds, all filters of the separate self. That is why the realization is accessible sobre later. You know (automatically) how to produce nondual awakened states but cutting off the filters. What can help at that stage is for example the practices of the Mahamudra-System stage 3, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste= Nondual), and 4. Stage of Nonmeditation (Where any doing/doer/Activity is and be dropped and the nondual awakened state can still be maintained. In this stage 4 the mind continuum ripens so that the big shift towards Enlightenment can happen. Afterwards the access to the Infinite or Awakend Nondual Awareness is quite stable, depending on the practice done before. It is very lovely "there". Already when approaching it it is so blissfull in these nondual states. In that bliss the ego-contraction dies/dissolves, because it is clearly seen and felt as contraction in the head, unpleasant and making nonduality localized again. I have written quite a bit about the Mahamudra stages of Nonmeditation Yoga and Yoga of One Taste. Maybe you find that interesting: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="Yoga of One Taste"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy

Yes, there are quite many ways one can use the word Enlightenment when one knows where its aiming towards (Absolute Reality/Infinity Consciousness). There is only Suchness, or Infinite Consciousness, or Being, or whatever (put in a term/signifier of ones preference), or Raspberry (credit to Ralston on that one), and of course the mindstream of these beings (animals or babies) is nothing else... Buddha-Nature for the Buddhists.... Yet, I believe it makes sense for clarities sake to limit the signifier/term Enlightenment for a self-reflective being that once had a self-aware separate-self (ego) and transcended that in Enlightenment, and can now actually talk about it. I agree that the contemplation/self-inquiry-part should be done in the most direct and efficient manner, and also be communicated as such. I wrote extensively on these issues also. Yet, based on all I know and am aware of, my guess is that for 95%+ of people Enlightenment needs practice to gain awakened (nondual and empty) states. All spiritual systems are based on that. I needed a lot of practice in training in these states. Of course, ladies and gentlemen like Anandamayi Ma and Ramana and others got them delivered more or less free home. Yet, the teaching system of these "naturals" (often dis-emphasizing the training of awakened states, because they got them for free) is maybe not the most promising approach for the majority of people who don't get these awakened states delivered for free. The final end of spectrum is something like Tony Parsons "Just do nothing" approach. Which is actually the last stage in many systems, once awakened nondual states "run" on autopilot without any "artifical" actitvity of the separate-self. Nonmeditation Yoga in Mahamudra for example. But teaching only that is like teaching people the final 200 meters on how to climb K2, and then kick them out at base camp in summer cloths and without oxygen, and then wondering why they freeze and choke on the way to the summit and don't reach it. Selling Water by the River

Very true. A good conceptual framework leads to practicing a path that drops one in an empty and impersonal awakened nondual state at the Gateless Gate. For passing the Gateless Gate, the framework and its framework-holder-identity must be transcended/thrown-away completely/cut-off Trekchö-style and let go. And crossing over is grace. It can't be forced. ("Nonmeditation Yoga"). But dropping the framework/path before being in a "compatible" empty ("impersonal") awakened state at the Gateless Gate also doesn't work. Selling Water by the River

Awesome! Somebody doing the "real" work of transcending the "bugs" of the separate-self for real, not just taking a brief look behind the curtain Javfly33, please allow me some hijacking of this topic in my ususal brazen style. Taking it in daily life is where real freedom starts: When one is confident that this can be done on any thought-arising and self-concept. Because one knows it from experience, also when the real heavy shocks of life come visit... And the fullness/love comes when one has the same confidence of doing this in daily life "everywhere" "one" "goes", and one is able to a) just cut each thought/I-thought/I-feeling arising in oneself b) or not, because its useful (character). Then, the bliss and love of these Awakened Awareness states begin to flow, and it all gets nondual and later infinite. Want to know how that Empty Pure Infinite Impersonal Consciousness can feel like, today and 1000 years ago, when one goes fully "cutting" each and every arising? Try to feel his (Adi Da) internal continuum and emotional state. He doesn't flinch or react. Because there is nothing inside capturing attention, but his attention/focus has relaxed/dissolved and he IS the whole Infinite Field of the Opening of Reality. Once enlightened, one doesn't have to do this (one can act fully normal), but one can. And if one is not fully awake, one can't. Not this long, this empty. That is how Koans are answered and checked btw. When in that state, one can say Raspberry and pass. That is what the brain waves do then: And don't do the Adi Da show, way uncool.... With Adi Da, one can see how much one can f*** up , to quote Ken Wilber, even with Enlightenment. So better have some conditioning of the "cooler" variant ready before crossing over... makes a more happy lucid dream after the untimely early demisal of anything separate moving in oneself. And if one really needs the cult, the awakened states of the video above attract.... because its not mental mumbo jumbo, but every being can feel it. And one would be quite insane to not want these states too. I am just no aware of a better video on youtube showing that, that why I chose that guy, not because its a smart or cool way to unpack ones self-realization. So, it is like riding the wave of emerging thought/feeling-capsules, which emerge than with quite very high speed (20 different arisings per second+). When ones attention is fast enough, and oneself familiar enough with all separate-self-identity arisings/tricks, one can do that. But of course, to get there, one has to work through and transcend any core-identity or trauma that would normally hpynotize oneself, and capture ones attention. Because guess what Maya is going to throw at you? Just to keep you nice and deluded in the illusion? Some juicy core-identity, narcissism, self-grandiosity, or trauma of course... And after a certain time having that awareness ongoing in daily life, it all gets nice and comfy nondual. Then, the reamaining agent/separate self coordinating this meditation (a very murky transparent nothing, but contradictory, because it sometimes thinks it controls the thing, or is proud on that achievement, and what not. Roger Thisdell stage 4) at some point realizes that this riding the wave of the thought/feeling stream can be done automatically by Awakaned Awareness itself, and gets out of the way (stage 4 Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). And then it goes from Nondual to Full Empty Pure Impersonal Consciousness (for example Thistell stage 5, below), "everything" arising in it, including the remains of the functional character side, but this time doing its thing without a separate self getting in the way. Pure Impersonal Consciousness, or Infinite Awakened Awareness, can run the show all by itself, better than the old one ever could. And welcome home! And then Javfly33, maybe consider doing such a video as Adi Da, but in a cool style, without the cult Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: Critical Point for me concerning taking it into daily life, and staying on top of the wave of the mind-stream and its emerging thoughts, using the mindstream itself as meditation object (but not in a mindfulness way of being mindful OF these thoughts, but cutting them at will with high enough speed to catch them all or riding along with full awareness of the object-character of the arisinsg of the mindstream arising in me). Meditation training makes a) able to cut the thought/feeling by looking into it, and b) doing that fast enough. Power & Speed so to say. " Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also..."

Actually, one normally needs to take the meditation off the meditation pillow into daily life, staying fully awake while the mindstream is doing its thing and is still on in daily life. Only this way, off the pillow and in daily life, one gets the momentum of 1000s of hours of meditation of transcending ones separate self (at least for normies and other not so gifted people, like yours truly) to make it to awakened nondual states. And these 1000s of hours when taken off the pillow into daily life are then really nice, no chore. The really MAGIC POINT when you manage to take the mindfulness of staying "on top" of the mindstream, cutting it off if you want to, and off the meditation pillow into living daily life from that. From there on, its downhill, and gets better and better... bliss and love starts flowing. To do that, one needs the right system that can do that (taking meditation off the pillow). Not all (actually quite few, including Mahamudra) have efficient methods for doing that. If they have methods for doing that at all. and a few 100 hours (I would guess in average) on the pillow to get to that point. If somebody says one doesn't need these several 1000 hours (because he/she didn't need that), that person could surely qualifies to coach others that also don't need these 1000s of hours... . And for sure, there are people that don't need these 1000s of hours. Although, probably not that many, considering how much is meditated, and few wake up... But how does one know how much transcendence/hours one needs to get the awakened states, before actually being there? And if a system that worked at less than 1000s hours necessary works on oneself? Right, one doesn't... Often most endearing are the folks that needed very little practice (or anything of practice at all) to wake up, or next to none meditation: Hey, won the lottery, great. But how many win the lottery? Sure one got a lottery-winner canidate as coachee? Hey you, are you one, will ya?? The minor nuiances of life... Also awesome and funny are some Zen/Theravada-systems and the like, that teach "bone-breaking" methods of boring meditation that lead nowhere without really Uber-human-willpower of enduring ones monkey-mind, boredom, and failing meditation and lacking lovely states.... Like in, Die on the pillow! Yes darling, but how about killing me softly with actually an efficient meditation system where I can see my progress, and actually start feeling better quite soon? And where I don't get beaten with the Keisaku if I actually ask a technical question on my meditation method that makes sense? For example here, here is description on these awakened nondual states: And below is a link to a short summary (considering the 600 pages of the book) of the Mahamudra-Path of Tibetan Buddhism using the Pointing Out the Great Way System/Book of Daniel Brown, with focus on Stage 3 "Yoga of One Taste" and Stage 4 "Nonmeditation Yoga", but also Stages 1 and 2 (the stuff done on the pillow to get to the magic point): And these states are your jumping board to get finally rid of the separate self, crossing over to Full Enlightenment, fully coming home, as also described in the link. Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra System. For example. Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: Did I ever tell I get royalties on every Pointing Out the Great Way book recommended being bought uhhhh, just kidding . Neither related nor affiliated, just read all the books from the lovely author (sadly departed, Daniel Brown was a real hero. Cardozzo: Enlightened Renaissance Man), and quite a lot other stuff on Mahamudra/Dzogchen, and much of what else lives&crawls out there... PS PS: And no, I am no monk- or monastery Aficionado, although I deeply respect this folk. Cardozza coined the term Enlightened Renaissance Man, which yours truy has shamelessly hijacked in his usual style elaborated on and recoined as politically nearly correct Renaissance-Man (male female diverse alien ... n+1 ) -Nondual-Realizer, and went on rambling about in:

Hi Davecraw, in the humble experience of yours truly, you can not rule out with logic if something else besides experience exists until certain Awakened States are realized that show the infinite and limitless nature of the Visual Field, and any other possible field/dimension (like the dimensionless opening/dimension in which subtle objects like thoughts arise). But: One can (and should) use logic to get to an agnostic level: NOTHING prooves that there is a material, external, self-existing world beyond the bubble of the visual field, beyond experiences. You can neither proove nor disproove that with logic. That is a fine point, because arguing WITH logic that only experience exists is one bridge too far. Can't be done. One would need to twist logic to proove that. Although certain very active gentlemens are giving it very extended tries at the moment. Prooving that only experience exists (and no self-existing external material world) can only be done with Awakened States that show the following properties of an Awakened Field of Awareness (below, the goal/outcome of Yoga of one Taste, stage 3 Mahamudra. One Taste = Nondual Union with the Infinite Field) any felt separation between "you" and the "external world" appearing in the visual field is vividly felt first as arising object of subject-object separation, a felt sensation, that then gradually disappears. Including all localization in the body (tension head, body-feelings that cause localization, and so on). Yoga of Illusory Body for example, there are discrete energetic practices to dissolve these contractions/localizations. Or just wait long enough in empty states.... so, union,"nondual" with the field. any "boundary" to anything limiting that visual field (or any other field) can only be an arising, an appearance. Not the boundless limitless infinite Nothingness. time, past and future is seen as mere concepts/ideas/arisings in the timeless Always Here Mind of Infinite Awakened Awareness/Infinite Consciousness. everything in the visual field is just appearance, "hovering" as pretty lucid display in mere Nothingness. -> mere apperance these states bring a lot of bliss and love It happens approximately in that order progressively with good meditation practice. Or, if you are lucky, all by itself (Karma,state). But then good luck telling anybody of the structure of the path to get there that one didn't even notice the path while one passed it, because they flew over it. Or: Ramana and all the other Wunderkinder/prodigies probably won't be able to tell you much details about the turns, wrong exits and scenic views on the road to Awakening, because they took the 747 to the destination. and the Zen and Theravada path tend also tend to not give a very detailed map (at least in the opinion of yours truly), but just a compass and say: go/meditate west, to the west is California & the Ocean. Mahamudra gives you a quite detailed map: Death Valley is here, you wanna go there, don't take the wrong exit, don't camp here, here are the gentlemen with bows&arrows, and so on... So, to get these states: (good efficient) meditation, or psychedelics. Then, counting together the awakenings above in bold letters, it becomes what is called in Mahamudra "boundless limitless timeless nondual loving Awakened Awareness". And THEN you can talk about "there is only experience, anywhere, everywhere", without needing to fool yourself with logic in the nature of your experience. And btw., that is not theory or wishful thinking, but my actual experience with a meditation system of Mahamudra (Tibetan Buddhism, "companion"-system of Dzogchen) described best in Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown , developing over quite some years. All of the above is the of and up to Yoga of One Taste (3. Stage Mahamdura). Ken Wilbers Diary Book has the titel "One Taste". The same One Taste of that practice, refering to it. One Taste: Daily Reflections on Integral Spirituality, Wilber. The outcome of Yoga of One Taste (3. Stage Mahamdura) gives one a shot (or many many, since many many are neede) to dissolve the last separate self-arisings remnants (the Yoga of Nonmeditation stage 4 Mahamudra), which then brings Full/Complete Enlightenment, in Leos terms God-Realization (although i find that term a bit bombastic, although technically precise if God is Ultimate EMPTY IMPERSONAL Infinite Reality) . Yoga of Nonmeditation dissolves the last remnants of a separate self moving in oneself/Infinite Reality, like awareness of being, awareness of self, any self-reflective arising of being anything. (hint: of= subject object, not full nondual. Still self-reflective thinking/identity creation). What remains is: Reality. The Totality. And zero separation, real Nonduality. Empty. Impersonal. Pure Infinite Consciousness. Staying as "always eternally here" Infinite Impersonal Nothingness. With Awareness as its essence. Yoga of Nonmeditation does this in that any meditation is so fully automized that there are no more separate self arisings doing the meditation to generate and stabilize the Awakened States of Yoga of One Taste, 3. Stage Mahamudra. Not that actually an illusion separate-self claims "Oh I am doing this nondual meditation so great". Would be a funny contradiction of Nothingness would be really pure impersonal Infinite Consciousness if something like that arises, hm? And that takes also a lot of time. Don't fry your brains too much trying to these maybe 500h-1000h+ with 5 MeO (depending of course on ones Karma/brain and body), because yours truly has never read/heard about a credible case where that has been done. Although they could exist. Volunteers for the fried brains, anybody? Joke: How do you spot a pioneer? Got a few fried brain cells arrows in the back. Just kidding. We do need that tested out. And how Psychedelic Paths combined with meditation systems above... Pure Mahamudra is too slow to have larger impact. Allthough still the best system (in the opinion of yours truly) of all of them, and then, good morning after waking up, game over, welcome home! And be nice to "enlighened persons", What is mostly being done with meditation and especially psychedelics, is dabbling around up to and around stage 3, Nonduality (Yoga of One Taste), with are more or less empty subject, up to a very empty witness already in union with then Nondual Infinite Field. "Having" Awakenings. With any kind of content: This World, Aliens, the management & staff running this Universe, other Dimensions, whatever ones heart delights in. An Infinity (literally) of stuff to explore... What is not so often talked about is the "suicide" of stage 4, Nonmeditation Yoga, Full Enlightenment. Getting fully Impersonal with transcending/killing each and every separate-self arising having all these lovely nondual experiences/awakenings. No Aliens required, but still possibly quite a bit scary for sure. But looks only scary from before the Gateless Gate. Any separate self arising (the enlightened or awake "person" having these awakenings, n+1) raising its ugly head, are seen as just more separate-self-contractions buzzing in Ones True Self. Another annoying little headache-bug to laugh about. Another moskito buzzing around in the Infinite Reality that one then realizes onself to be and ever having been, to squatt/Trekchö. One more contraction to let go and transcend. and one lucky day, one just wakes up. But death is death, transcendence is death, even if its only the death of an Illusion. And Maya needs her tools, like the Wizard of Oz, else everbody would just say bye bye to the game. [Disclaimer: In nearly all cases, real suicide is about the most stupid thing one can do. Back to square 1, more Karma added on top. Or how to continue the dream, dodging out ones Karma of this life, with additional Karma on top from hitting the reset-button. But no soul gets lost, just do 3rd grade again, with a headache-hangover from the last try. Finally, every soul graduates college. But some like school so much that they don't listen to most teachers, and do some classes over and over again]. So, have fun on the trip, don't fry your brains, keep your humor (Wilber, Transcendence restors humor), squatt all separate self bugs, and Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River Ken Wilber wrote: “TRANSCENDENCE RESTORES HUMOR. Spirit restores humor. Suddenly smiling returns. Too many representatives of too many movements – even many very good movements, such as feminism, environmentalism, meditation, spiritual studies – seem to lack humor altogether. In other words, they lack lightness, they lack a distance from themselves, a distance from the ego and its grim game of forcing others to conform to its contours... They should all trade two pounds of ego for one ounce of laughter”(Ken Wilber. 1999. One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber. December 7). PS: And for all other beings/perspectives of Indras Net, see: and if you don't already have an overkill, and better go for nice walk or so... Some more for the Aficionados of conceptual overkill: And now, really better go fishing or something... “frog pond plop”

I mean the ripening phase of for example Yoga of One Taste nor Nonmeditation-Yoga with resting in Ones True Being. It is not fully clear at that phase. After crossing over/waking up/Basis Enlightenment it is. I didn't write clearly in this paragraph you quoted. The speciality of Mahamudra in general, and Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation especially, is pointing out as much as possible from ones True Nature at each stage, and bringing forth the benefit of resting/training in these states. And going from meditation state induction to realization/understanding to further meditation state experience to realization, and so on. Like in a upwards-going spiral. Selling Water by the River

So true. A good path can drop one at the doopstep of the Absolute. But there, all concepts fail, all duality must come to an an end, and the last separate self subjectivity/individuality must be seen moving in oneself/transcended and cut off/dropped/died. Only then will ones True Being reveal itself. That is the essence of Mahamudra Nonmeditation Yoga for example. And one throws the stick into the fire when one is there, not before. So good concepts (the stick one later throws into the fire) get one to the doorstep of the Absolute, and for that one must already by very very empty. Neti Neti. A concept like Solipsism is not at all useful for doing that, despite certain partial truths hold valid ONCE having realized the Absolute. But then one doesn't need to talk about. Because there are no others... And one doesn't want to blow up the separate-self-image/narcicissm of "other" perspective that still have the Illusion-separate-self-ego well and alive appearing in their mindstreams with concepts like Solipsism, which just are not true on the level of a ego/separate self still well and alive. Solipsism is a path that leads nowhere, promises things it can't hold, and leads in circles. While Maya lovingly smiles at oneself, enjoying the show, and tells one how much she loves one and how oh so great one is. Neti Neti delivers, and that is why each and every meditation system and spiritual traditions goes that road. Not one system goes the conceptual Solipsism road. Either all that came before must have been iditos (Remember Ken Wilbers: Nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time), or there is a deep deep truth to the Neti Neti approach, since Humanity has used it ever since. And if one wants to go a certain part of the Solipsism road on ones path, how about doing it with style: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche Selling Water by the River

Thanks for your message, and don't worry. Every being has its own style. I am just writing what I wished I had earlier. We will see if and for whom that will be beneficial. There is no other way than to communicate in concepts, words and duality here in this forum. Which is what I try to do as good as possible. I am very well aware of the limits of concepts and theory, and the limits of any kind of practice (see below, section/link Nonmeditation Yoga). And don't worry for me confusing the map with the territory. Else I wouldn't write about Nothingness (to kill every concept) or Madhyamaka or, in the final stage, kicking out all doing/meditating/anything at all: Nonmeditation-Yoga: So I appreciate your post, since I myself would have probably considered writing some kind of similiar warning to somebody like yours truly spamming the forum with theory loaded with concepts. Especially if I would have never seen/intuited the internal state of the theory-concept-factory in real life. If we would meet person to person, we would not need to speak a word to understand each other. Water by the River

Some Quotes from Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute. Below are some quite poetic pointers on how the last separate-self-identities or arisings (very subtle ones at that stage, which is very close before crossing over to Enlightenment) appear and get transcended. They are already very empty and quite impersonal (of personal stuff/Ego), and can and normally are already nondual, or unitive states. Wolinski calls them Portals to the Absolute, because it is in these Portals/states/last separate self identities where the "ripening" of Awakened Awareness (= technical Mahamudra term, standing for totally Empty Impersonal Nondual Boundless Timeless Consciousness) happens, which still has some layers/arisings at that ripening stage of some very subtle "Individuality" preventing full Enlightenment, or crossing over, until finally transcending even these last illusion layers, and then sudden crossing over to waking up /Enlightenment happens. One can not "push" through them with willforce, or artificial activity. Because that would generate more subtle separate-self arisings (will/trying to do/pushing something IS a separate-self arising, is artifical activity). But with something like Nonmeditation-Yoga of the Mahamudrasystem, one just rests in Pure Empty Impersonal Boundless Nondual Consciousness (or nondual unitive state Reality at that point in time), and lets these last veils evaporate. What is very helpful (at least for me) is the understanding (or a map) what these very subtle last separate self identities/veils are and how they work, because they are very hard to spot. No-Self is not automatically True No-Self, or Nothingness. And if one confuses the final Impersonal Empty No-Self of Enlightenment with some No-Self/Portal still loaded with subtle separate-self-identies, one does not cross over to Enlightenment, or finding the Real Empty Impersonal Infinite No-Self of Absolute Consciousness/Nothingness, the essence of all appearance. Ones True Deep Identity of the Universal Mind, the One without a second , Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or: Nothingness. And now Stephen Wolinski (The formating is like this, because it is like this in the book, and increases its readability): "THE NO-SELF SELF I-DENTITY The appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower observer, witness no-self self, the position-less position the no-point point of view the non-being being etc. These subtle Identities often times remain unnoticed because they appear in such a pleasant form such as: Silence, a peaceful space The space between two thoughts The gap without thoughts memory emotions associations etc." and "Often times, the Appearance of a Portal which is a State requiring a Knower is a Phenomenological Appearance. Any Portal can mistakenly be confused as being the Absolute. All portals and spiritual paths are appearances and are experiences requiring an experience-er… Portals are appearances that are labels which carry with them an associational network of thoughts, memories, emotions, associations etc. Portals Appear to Appear in the Dream-Illusion. [that is, they appear in Infinite Reality as arising/appearance, temporarily. Portals/states like the appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower, observer, witness, no-self self,] Eventually, the appearance of Portals as well as the appearance on which the portal appears which could be called or named the No-self-self Identity, the No-Position Position, The No Point-Point of View, the Vortex appearing on the Ocean of Existence The Witness The Being(ness) All Evaporates… Prior to all appearances Prior to the Absolute… Prior to I Am THAT The Nameless Absolute…that which is prior to and without consciousness, awareness, knowingness, being-ness, form or emptiness" "Please note that the stillness etc. is a by-product of the no-self self Identity and that a no self-self Identity, aka a position-less position aka or a no-point point of view are all part of the appearance. In this way the appearance and the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or a no-self self identity position-less position or a no-point point of view etc. is part of the appearance. In other words, they arise and subside together. Moreover the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or no-self self identity etc. is part of and fixated and fascinated on the something-nothing or appearance disappearance game (to be discussed later). ... Realizing this leads to the appreciation you can deconstruct appearances ad nauseum and still end up continuing to deconstruct appearances. In other words there is no way out of the loop, without the evaporation of the perceiver, know-er, aware-er aka no-self-self identity etc. which is experienced as stillness, peacefulness, presence or I am etc. ... Finally, feeling like a separate self or feeling a “non-dual” self or feeling are both states. There is the dual identity and a non-dual identity. the dual identity and a non-dual identity are states and are perceiver, knower awarer dependent, and are appearances ... [appearing in Reality/Absolute] " "It is the appearance that appears to appear as a witness or a know-er or an aware-er etc. which is part of the illusion. All of the appearances of the witness, knower, aware-er, perceive-er observer etc.) are appearances, temporary illusory-mirage like appearances which contains the illusion of stability, solid(ness) and permanency. This illusion functions to stabilize the illusory dream of existence, isness, and/or beingness." Selling Water by the River

Hi Josemar, Please excuse me not commenting on having done (in my country) illegal psychedelics in a public forum. But others have and publicly declared that, and are "quoteable", see below. But what I can tell you that certain states, that can also be reached via meditation and that are extremely similiar to the 5 MeO experience, lead to states that are totally nondual infinite space and time have gone the identity left is NOTHING, really a empty nothing, a transparent witness without any properties. BUT with a very very subtle Individuality still left. And that is the problem. So, the last frontier, which is extremely(!) subtle, is still there: Individuality, the last remnants of a nearly invisible transparant witness/separate self. Roger Thisdells stage 4, Not Self: That is the stage where one works with the last remnants of a very very empty remaining separate-self. Impossible to describe in words. The last remnants of Individuality/Separate Self. This is what "Nonmeditation Yoga" of the Mahamudra System is cleaning up with, preparing for the Big Sudden Shift. After watching the video, watch his next video 5 of the series, True No Self. There is also a beautiful passage in Ken Wilbers "The Religion of Tomorrow: A Vision For The Future of the Great Traditions" on the transparent witness. Transparent Witness is a word not so perfectly fitting, because it can be already quite nondual. >Because from your description "not fully empty" doesn't resonate here. There isn't a separate self to be empty or not, it's only on the comedown when the separate self reassembles that the non-experience is re-contextualized into whatever the separate self deems worthy or valuable. I understand when you write "doesn't resonate here". It feels like you were totally rid of the separate self during 5 MeO. You can have a similiar feelings/impressions on the meditation path, see Roger Thisdells video and Frank Yang. But it is not fully gone. And one CAN NOT imagine what is still there. Why it is not fully empty. Because IT IS the lense/separate self/transparent witness (although already nondual) that one is still looking out from. And I will never be able to proove that to you, or describe what still remains. That is why Basis/Great/Final Enlightenment is sudden, as described before. If one would understand what hinders the Great Enlightenment before it actually happening, it would happen immediately. I can not proove that to you. But the fact that it goes away after the trip IS a very strong indication that not every aspect of the separate self was gone during the trip, because the Deep Identity Level Shift of Great Enlightenment DID NOT OCCUR. When you know what you are, you know what you are. Awake or not. There is a long "tradition" for example in Zen in differentiating between Enlightenment and Great Enlightenment. In other traditions also. In the firstly mentioned Enlightenment, one fully knows the nondual void/empty/mere appearance nature of the visual field, and that oneself is empty. But Bassui says for example: WHO is perceiving all of that. The Empty Void/Space can not perceive it. And Bassui says: "At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization, but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present." "Again, there are those who think that when one’s mental functions have ceased, leaving one like a decayed tree or cold stone, one has attained no-mindness; while still others maintain that in the practice of Zen a decisive point has been reached when one feels a deep void with awareness of neither inner nor outer, the entire body having become shining, transparent, and clear like a blue sky on a bright day. This last appears when the True-nature begins to manifest itself, but it cannot be called genuine Self-realization. Zen masters of old would call it the “deep pit of pseudo-emancipation.” " Andeven though all of you becomes one mass of questioning as you turn inward and intently search the very core of your being, you will find nothing that can be termed Mind or Essence. Yet should someone call your name, something from within will hear and respond. Find out this instant who it is! If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear [or any and all wrong identity/separate self structures/arisings get killed/transcended by ones True Being, Nothingness, the "ever-burning flame of your own primoridal nature". Deep complete Identity Level Shift, dropping the mistaken Identity of anything separate, however subtle, once and for all]. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." The same thing that happens on the meditation path happens also on the psychedelic path. So luckily, there is a gentlemen who publicly comments on having done both: Frank Yang comments on the difference between 5 MeO (and what still remains in that), and what can be achieved by meditation. "so when i tried 5meo DMT (God Molecule) three years ago that was the last time i tried it DJing the whole universe i had a breakthrough of Absolute Infinity slash Emptiness slash _______ you can't describe it. three years later that state is right here right now when i perceive the world it's a 360 degrees boundless infinite hologram perceiving itself through One Sense Door there's not even a sense door "God's 0 Sense Door" and every single sensation both inside and outside there's no inside outside syncs up to (and is aware of) itself and it's been like that it's locked in for three months now nothing has changed nothing this is a state that isn't affected by any ..." And on getting rid of the last lenses/filters of the separate self, very subtle: " or imagine what this would be like and even if you take psychedelics when you're at 99 percent you're not going to get a glimpse of the full thing because you're gonna have an experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it permanently through the natural mind okay experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it permanently through the natural mind okay that's not even go to the people who are only maybe 1 percent or not even that, not even Stream Entry taking psychedelics and had a glimpse of god consciousness. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! Because enlightenment is not an experience that comes and goes that's why Jed Mckenna said you're either awake or you're not. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! That would also be my main point. Awake or not, to use the nice statement/metaphor from Inliytened1. To end with a personal oberservation: I know quite some contemporary people which are enlightened via mainly meditation. I know not single case of the pure or even mainly psychedelic path, where I would conclude that that case in enlightened. That doesn't mean it could not happen. Just that I am not aware of one. That also tells something about the likely statistics. I know . But some will resonate with it, and will read it. All I am doing is writing here because I enjoy it, and because the archive of posts generated would have been (at least for me) very valueable and useful some years ago... Selling Water by the River

Normal full-time business career, married but no kids, and a hobby also... I was a bookworm for a long time, reading hundreds of books, with a focus on meditation/spiritual systems. I wanted to find the most efficient ones there are. Considering what that brought into my life, I wasn't too unlucky doing that. It all can be done, though honestly I wouldn't be where I am at without the book that i shamelessly promote, "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown". You know, Selling Water by the River, and especially that book... . And other books from Mahamudra/Dzogchen also. It is a very efficient system, with limited need for sitting meditation if done correctly. I used and still use most of the day off the pillow for meditation/mindfulness practice, or just staying in my True Being. If no absolutely distracting mental work is necessary, one can use pretty much all day, even meetings and standard work to stay mindful in the sense of " Simultaneous Mind (nondual, 3. stage of Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste)" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind" (switching off the separate self, 4. stage of Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). That brings the momentum/time/hours in meditation that probably most of us need. To be honest, I had to read the book a lot of times (at least stages 1-4 Mahamudra, Skill of Reckongition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste, Nonmeditation Yoga). At one point, I had to wait several years to understand the Yoga of Unelaboration, which is really hard to understand. A cycle of read, try, read again, understand a bit more, read again, even more, meditate, get certain states, read again, misunderstand, read again, understand, and so on.... But with progress and increasing meditation experience one can get what is described, and "go upwards in circles" of meditation experience -> understanding/realization -> reading more, understanding more of the system -> meditation exerpience -> understanding/realization and so on, n+1. Yes. In essence, one gets love from others, and self-esteem (aka validation with concepts), and safety/security. Sure, at a certain stage of development one could go into the desert when the flow of love/bliss from ones True Core is fully on (It is a nice indicator to check how transcended the separate self really is). But to live a healthy and integrated life, why not take the love, validation of self-esteem from "others" on top? It also provides a good calibration to live a healthy, integrated and balanced relative life in society. Doing the desert thing at some point is rather easy... Business Meetings is where the challenge is , Death by a-bit-less-intelligent-than-can-be-Powerpoint-presentations and meetings and so on... Still working on that, and, admittingly, having fun while doing so... Even the more or less Awake Ones live a more healthy and integrated life when integrating in a healthy way in society, or at least trying to. One can do the Ramana-thing of walking off into the wildness and forget eating a little bit. But why should one do it? If one has taken at least a little bit of compassion training/Boddhisattva-vow/whatever, one probably feels better living an integrated and wholesome life in society. Selling Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

Please excuse the following musings from my side: Instead of saying Enlightenment is already the core of each being or each being is already enlightened (which is not incorrect in certain ways), let's try saying they all have Buddha-Nature. then lets define Enlightenment (just for the practicality of it) as the Realization/Understanding of ones Buddha-Nature/Reality, and the deep shift in Identity that comes with it. Some once said the Enlightenment is an accident. And practice (meditation, contemplation,psychedelics, ....) makes accident prone. That emphasizes that it can't be force by willpower (since an ego/separate self arisings would be that forcing, which prevent it), but one can set the right conditions for it to happen. The right conditions are for example described in detail in the Nonmeditation Yoga phase of Mahamudra in vast technical detail, for example outlined in "Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". After the Yoga of One Taste (training the so called simultaneous or nondual mind, in which nonduality with the appearances of the "external" world have is achieved), this stage follows. In the Yoga of Nonmeditation, one trains to get go/transcend/understand, disidentify,integrate of the last remains of the separate self arisings that prevent the final realization, or Great Enlightenment, Enlightenment into the Real Nature of Reality. These last subtle, very subtle feelings of Individuality (or being separate in a very very subtle way, like feeling one with the Totality, or a subtle "watching" or "understanding" the Totality/Reality) block the full realization. When everything ("external" world appearances and the last "internal" arisings of separate self, which then are the empty witness) is seen as just arising in Infinite Awareness/Consciousness/Reality, crossing over to Enlightenment can happen (but can't be forced, it is an "accident"). Quote from Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown "Basis Enlightenment [Basis=Reality. In Zen that would be Great or Final Enlightenment] : The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away. Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20). Tilopa says: "When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha" The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space." Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does."). Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali). Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day. All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation. But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so). which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth." It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver. If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended. That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do: Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature. That consists mainly of two parts: the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined. Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills. And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way. I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details. All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. All the best on your journey. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Warning: Loooong rambling ahead! The deception is what I call (at least for me) Separate-Self-arisings (I-thoughts, I-feeling), that arise with a very high frequency in Oneself (True Self/Reality). That leads to the world appearances manifesting as "external" and "solid/not hologram-like mere appearances". Et voila, the magic show! When one spots them fast enough (separate self arisings) and is familiar with them, and doesn't get captured by them (in my opinion the goal of meditation), the visual field at some point becomes nondual, mere appearance, lucid/hologram-like, hovering in Infinite Nothingness. Then, there is no more deception, since it doesn't "grip". Nothing the "separate self can throw at you" is believed anymore. It just runs/appears in True You/Reality, but is no longer to believed to be more real than mere arising in True You/Reality. Perceptions perceiving themselves in You/Reality, and some practical mind-stream-stuff of the human you have (not are, but have) running in True You/Reality. As long as any of it is still believed, and not transcended as objects/movements/arisings in the True You, one doesn't cross over to the other shore. 3% of still "gripping" and not transcended separate self arisings (very very subtle ones at the end, just mere "Individuality") prevents the full Realization of ones True Identity. They all have to "go". It is like the mindstream runs in oneself, and doesn't capture ones attention. Nothing of it. The mindfulness stays, it is all a magic show. There is no more "external" world, just a magic show of hologram like lucid appearances, hovering in Infinite Nothingness. Suffering (psychological suffering, or resistance to what is here and now) has stopped at that point. Then, it all becomes a magic show. It is totally clear what the essence of the magic show/movie is. Nothingness. without suffering. Sure, the Magic Show is a deception/Illusion. But what else is there to do for the True You? The Real You can not gain or loose ever. But it can manifest the show. And just a disclaimer/warning, because I write very freely from the absolute side of the street, tending to ignore the relative side of the street while writing this way: When you start to think while the separate self is still intact, that you can not gain or loose ever: Well, Maya will give one a nice smack demonstrating that one (as the separate self) can very well suffer, grow and develop, loose and gain. Karma is well and alive when the separate self is not fully transcended). That leads automatically to appreciation of the beauty of the show. Appreciation of the beauty of manifestation. With a certain preference of being interested in all these mechanisms. But being interested not in a grasping way, like suffering when one doesn't get to understand it, but more like: Hey let's go for a walk, and if it rains we don't, and do something else. No big deal anyway.... If there is no appreciation of the Illusion/Show, but disgust/horror/discontentment/anything other than marveling at/with the state of things, I would assume there is still a separate self active/not transcended, that then resists/suffers. I personally find the investigation/exploration of the Multiverse, trying to understand the manifestation mechanism, Alien-anything quite interesting. But it no way leads to me grasping to the beauty and bliss of these experiences of understanding or exploring. If something like that would show up in my mindstream, a reaction would arise like: All nice and well, interesting for sure, but starting egoic/separate self-suffering or grasping for it, no way I am doing that, would be rather not so smart. and lead to suffering/resisting, and shutting down the Endohuasca-System (below).... and that would be it (grasping stopped). Selling Water by the River Some Quotes from Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind": "Tashi Namgyel calls the two stages prior to experiencing enlightenment recognizing awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] and setting up awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] . One-taste yoga establishes the foundation for awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] to emerge. In non-meditation yoga the practitioner: ...proceeds from the perspective of having seen the benefit of the aforementioned [special] samadhi. Generate a fervent desire for this [awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] ] to increase and continue once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown "The commentary merely alludes to these changes withthe brief passage from Gampopa, "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind" (TN, p. 5oo).These and other changes, however, are described in much greater detail in the oral tradition, especially by Rechung.'" Rechung says that the practitioner "unties the chakra knots that prevent the full experience of mental and divine bliss, respectively." [the Endohuasca-System of the Body, at least in my theory, see https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ] Attachment (zhar ba) is transmuted into great enjoyment (dga 'chen).The practitioner finds great bliss (bde chen) simply from experiencing ordinary phenomena as they arise in their own way. The natural spontaneity of the mind is freed. Bliss replaces misery." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown That is how at least developed for me. And the end of the game: "According to Tilopa, such uninterrupted, effortless mindfulness finds no refuge (gtad so) in any particular events of the mind because of their inherent emptiness/clarity, so that awareness-itself turns back on itself and naturally crosses over [to Enlightenment]" "In short, crossing over [to Enlightenment] happens at the time when every single sensory experience—appearance and thought—are viewed as clarity/emptiness and movement/emptiness with absolute certainty." [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed] "Tashi Namgyel's root text explains how nonmeditation yoga ripens in three stages: At the lowest level, it becomes possible to maintain undistracted mindfulness of the simultaneous mind [simultaneous mind = nondual] at any time, so that it is unnecessary to limit the practice to formal meditation sessions. Seeming appearances arise "like a mirage." [mere luminous appearances hovering in Nothingness]. At the middle level,awareness-mindfulness continues day and night. The subtlest flow of shapes that arise is the mind's self-illumination. At the highest level, awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] stays even throughout all these subtle forms [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed, including any feelings/thoughts of Individuality/being separate from the Totality/Reality]. Continuous awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] in the face of everything experienced is great nonmeditation. (TN, p. 697) I highly recommend the book, it is truly awesome. It is a synthesizing text of the Mahamudra-Tradition, quoting many books of the tradition and integrating them.