Heart of Space

Meditation is probably the most powerful tool, it is in my experience. But, but, but, but... I've had powerful and profound results from prayer as well. So, I know there are probably many paths, many tools. See what works for you. Use your intuition.

I had a really profound and humbling experience today. It was a difficult experience, but truly profound and challenged the way I perceived reality. I am in awe. Thanks to those who gave me positive messages, I think it really helped me during the difficult time. I feel like I've gone through a lot in the last week or so, but I know that this is what I want most in my life.

So, a major update. I decided to pray, which is something I rarely do, it just felt right to do. I went into my closet and prayed for a few minutes before the most intense sadness I've ever experienced in my life. It was so intense there was a fear that eventually accompanied it because the intensity was increasing to a level which I've never been sad before. When the fear came the sadness stopped mostly. I was too scared to experience the sadness deeper. I can't emphasize enough how intense this experience was. I felt and still feel deep aloneness. I've been carrying this around for a long time, I have a very troubled past in terms of my well being. And big part of my spirituality has been an attempt to run away from this deep sadness. I feel very defeated right now. I feel like I've lied to myself.

I've actually seen there is no free will several times before I saw Leo's video. And now, I literally experience no free will on a fairly regular basis with the dissolution of the illusion that I am doing behaviors and thinking thoughts. However, I do agree that one should probably stay agnostic in regards to free will if you haven't had the direct experience to reveal what is truth. Ultimately, most of what Leo brings up has to be understood on a deep experiential level to really be fully understood beyond just the intellect. So, I think that your thought should extend beyond just Leo's video on free will. At the same time though, I'm pretty sure Leo has acknowledged this multiple times already. I get the impression that you genuinely want to help people become more aware, Martin, but I think you're going to turn people off to what you have to say when you refer to them as a sheep in a pejorative sense. Perhaps this was unintended and you meant no insult, but I just wanted to tell you how it could be perceived.

Could you expand on that idea a little more?

I used to meditate on weed all the time. After a while I realized it was a huge psychological crutch for me. I'm not saying this will be everybody's experience, but very careful with it. I would say that it's much better to meditate sober. But don't let me stop you from trying it haha

Thank you for this response. Very potent words for me in this moment. You all have been very helpful.

That last paragraph was pretty fucking funny omg lol, I think that might be one of my favorite things you've ever said. With that said, I feel deeply motivated to go deeper. I needed to hear this, thanks, Leo.

Yes, this is reaffirming what I think I'm coming to realize. I've "relapsed" a lot over the years and this time seems different in that I'm not judging myself for it and I actually feel pretty happy over all. Really great point about avoidance being seeking in disguise, I never had previously thought about it that way. I don't like using the word depersonalization because it has such a negative connotation in psychology as being a horrible nightmarish state caused by trauma. In my case it's not negative at all, it actually just feels like I have a more honest version of reality. I guess there is just thoughts appearing which are apprehensive in nature because it feels different. @PureExp Let things happen naturally as they do. I'm really taking that idea to heart. Thank you. @electroBeam I'm becoming extremely open minded to phenomena, which to be frank, I used to think were complete nonsense. I was a pretty typical super rational atheist type, but I've become extremely open minded which has been to my benefit. Although, weird phenomena like what I've experienced was very frightening for me. Next time I'll be able to handle it with more equanimity. I will try practicing what you referred to in terms of letting go. Thanks for the advice guys, it's really helpful and I appreciate it a lot.

It's always interesting to read this forum. So many people who have not actually attained enlightenment talking with such sureness and specificity about it. I think there's a little too much talk about enlightenment. It can be bad for progress in humble opinion. Anyways, continue on.

When I was meditating at a retreat. Multiple times I was sitting int he meditation hall and saw a perfectly realistic version of the room, but it would be slightly altered. This happened multiple times. I wasn't like a day dream, it looked so detailed and real I thought I had my eyes open until I actually opened my eyes. I have more, but I must sleep.

Didn't read much, but for some reason I felt like attempting to try to talk to Ra. With the most open mind possible I meditated and attempted to ask him to communicate with me. I perceived answer that came like an insight that was simply "why?" I gave an honest answer and then I got a response in a similar way that was just "i love you." Could be my mind making it up, but I'm enjoying exercising my open mindedness.

This might not be something you want to hear, meditation or enlightenment seeking may not fix the problem entirely. It's still a good thing for you to do, because it would elevate suffering caused by the problem, but ultimately you may just have to accept your current situation. I don't have that exact same issue, but I've had to do something very similar. Ultimately the content of consciousness, however flawed you perceive it, does not really matter for enlightenment. I'm sorry for your situation. I hope you don't take my post as patronizing, I don't intend to be. I relate to your original post in some ways.

I'd be genuinely open minded and willing to give this a serious shot. I've never had an OBE in my life and I'm skeptical about them, but I'm certainly willing to try.

You can stay in a mindful meditative state during light sleep. It's hard to do. You have to be highly motivated and train yourself to do it.

So dramatic, but the sentiment is true. I'd opt for a more rational bases for not using them too much. My personal experience is that you can wear down your brain to where you get almost nothing but bad trips and deplete certain neurotransmitters causing depression and things like that. You can certainly experience God on these substances, but funny thing about God, he gives no fucks about whether or not a chemical you're taking is causing you brain damage.

And 60 mg's of valium a day to support his benzo addiction. Has he even done a psychedelic lol? No? Then everything he says is invalid. If he has and someone lets me know I will read his thing and give an objective and fair critique.

Oh my god this is so funny hahahahahaha... i died. Really though, OP, don't ask that question. No one who's actually enlightened will most likely answer and people who have fooled themselves into thinking they're enlightened will. Unfortunately, this forum attracts a lot of the later I notice.

If this is what it really takes to become enlightenend, I think we're all screwed.

It happened spontaneously. I consciously expanded outside of myself and realized that I was the simultaneously the teacher of experience as well as the knower of experience. The truest and purest form of knowledge is your direct experience. And that knowledge is taught by God. Both the knower and the teacher of experience is God. God is such a loaded term for this, it's incomprehensible really. This is the best way I can put it into words. It was the biggest cosmic bitch slap my little ape self had ever received in my life. I realized how much I needed to change my life after this and what a cocky little arrogant prick I've been for a large part of my life. "God" doesn't give a flying fuckity fuck about your little silly ape goof ball illusory identity. When you are as much of a cocky little shit as I am this experience brings about quite a lot of fear initially. It brought me to me knees in tears literally bowing to my very reality. My life will forever be altered because of this experience. In a good way of course. I just learned to have some SERIOUS respect, reverence, and humility for experience. When I say serious reverence I mean like I picked up a nasty dirty sock on the floor and took a full breathe through my nose and was in a state of pure reverence for the experience of that smell. Sounds dumb, but if you were there you'd understand. I feel like I matured years in a matter of hours. Just wanted to share this because I don't have anyone to talk to about this in my real life. And btw, a little context on myself. I am a staunch atheist. A Richard Dawkins, logical, rational thinking atheist and I had this experience. I never expected this in my life.

Haha, don't worry, the experience was so profound and has had a deep impact on my character. Simple typed words on an internet forum won't dishearten me. There are aspects of the experience that I haven't shared which are deep and personal. As I said I was truly brought to my knees in awe and cried a tears of happiness and sadness at the same time because of experience because of this. I just hoped to communicate and maybe inspire a few people with this thread. That's really it. I'm just happy to experience this. Thank you.

Fantastic post, and criticism of my experience. I read your post and re-read it. I will definitely take into consideration everything you said and I think you helped in a small way guide me in the right direction. Thank you. I'm really lucky, honestly, that you took such time to analyze and point out potential areas where I could further my spiritual growth.

I'm glad you responded in the way you did here. I misjudged you. At first I thought you were threatened by my claim and was trying to have some sort of battle of the ego's, but this post clearly shows that you're genuinely just questioning my experience. That is completely welcome and understandable. I'd have the same exact reaction if I were you before this. No doubt that I'm not at the pinnacle of spiritual development, I hope I haven't given the impression that I think I am. I am still just a child in that regard and have an infinite stretch of potential spiritual growth ahead of me. So, don't confuse this thread for me claiming that I'm some sort of guru, because I'm not. But, I did have a very profound experience that was ego transcending, and yes a non-dual experience of reality. Granted, it was temporary. I fully understood what God was and was God itself. It was far beyond what's possible in a delusion of the mind. I can't show you evidence of this experience, I can't even communicate it fully, I can only try. One of the thoughts I had as I was pacing around in utter shock after it happened and the experience (or non-experience if you want to be picky with language) was that it would be pointless to attempt to communicate it and that I shouldn't even try. It would just be labored effort, which would fail completely. The general take away I had for my life in general is that I should live my life with respect for all others and my experience even for the people and things I had previously chosen to perceive as negative. To have absolute reverence for all things in reality, like the most exquisitely beautiful sight of the sun falling below an awe inspiring mountain range, and even seemingly banal things like the stinky smell of an unwashed sock on your floor (ESPECIALLY the unwashed sock). As I said I smelled some nasty shit and I was in complete awe and reverence after this. I was just in awe of the experience I had been so flippantly dismissive and arrogant towards previously. And humility to the unrelenting power and vastness of the universe which allows my profoundly frail existence to be. Regardless of what you think, this had a profound effect on my existence and I will continue my spiritual life and growth. It is never ending, until death of course. This is a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow I think, especially "spiritual" people, but this by in large is ego talk. It is an egoic pursuit. Are you sure you haven't just built up an identity and life around these concepts? An honest question that you should consider, not me attempting to attack you or degrade you in any way.

And in general I would like to state for the record I never claimed to be in some higher holy "ego-less" state, or that I'm better or more knowledgeable than anyone. I'm a silly human like everyone else with my own interests and desires. What I'm talking about in this thread has certainly impacted me, but it certainly didn't magically transform me into some magical state up in the clouds above the rest of you. Experiencing God didn't do that for my ape self, because the experience was not within the confines of my little ape self. Be very careful when listening to people on this forum talk about how you're "supposed to be" or "how you're supposed to talk" after experiencing "real enlightenment," because a lot of it is dogma disguised. A person who has experienced God isn't any particular person that talks in a particular way. A person can experience God and yet still have no understanding of spirituality what-so-ever. It could be a monk, a person that works at McDonalds, a serial killer, in my case just some random schlub that works in pharmacy. Truth or God is not the person, the person is still a flawed little monkey. And I would guess that we've all maybe come across a person who's genuinely experienced God, but you couldn't tell at all by how they dressed, talked, or acted. After I experienced this I understood so many forms of religion and spirituality and the behaviors that come from those practices. I even had a very good understanding of the old testament God and why he's written in the way he is as violent and deranged (granted that's a complete misunderstanding of it in my opinion, just as the concept of God as loving and caring for humans is equally mislead). But anyways, I'm glad some of you got something out of this thread and if anyone else wants to discuss stuff constructively with me I'm more than happy.

I don't feel like I'm being defensive at all, rather I was just cordially making a few points. And as I said before, from my experience you do not experience any other living beings experience's that are separate from your own. So, saying things like "it functions in exact same way in everyone," does not make sense to me. Do you experience multiple people's perspectives at once? That would seem necessary to make the claims you are making. I would genuinely like to know, that would be truly fascinating to me and I'm sure many other people on this forum. Or maybe perhaps we're talking past each other or failing to communicate in some way. With all do respect, you may respond to your hearts content, but I don't really see value in continuing the conversation.