lmfao

@CreamCat the answer which is probably perfect for your question is also probably the answer you think is cliche which is "everything is already perfect".

@Kloof nice post.

@Girzo Im not making the claim that my experience couldn't morph into "another person's" in the next moment of experience (if a next moment even exists), I am stating that I can never know that to be true because everything that is experienced is always experienced in one consciousness. Reality is this completely uncaused, spontaneous present moment. There is something rather than nothing so anything is indeed possible. My posts should boil down to me saying that from my perspective, Leo's statements are perhaps not rooted in "actuality". The point of contention is just unimportant at the end of the day tbh. And from non-dual experiences I've had I genuinely think it's very possible that time and even flux doesn't exist. I'm not just being a keyboard warrior here. I think seeing through flux is something you get a glimpse of when going super deep into consciousness. I think it's the sort of thing that happens when your awareness merges with God. It accompanies the "realisation" that reality is completely uncaused and spontaneous with literally nothing at its foundation, at least for me. It accompanies seeing through time.

@Leo Gura The way I see it is that we can hold all sorts of practical models for reality and the universe (like materialism and rationality) but if we're gonna chase enlightenment then we have to see through the models and from my perspective you're perhaps confusing models of reality as being foundational to reality. That's because I don't see how solipsism can be disproven. Within reality all the you have are experiences. How would any combination of experiences (whether related to awakening or not) show you that there exist other centres of conscious experience in spite of the fact that everything experienced by reality is just in your one consciousness (which would hence leave the question of whether other conscious beings exists to be an unknown)? I feel you Suppose you a have an object in front of you in a room and you can see it. Now lets suppose you close your eyes. As far as reality is concerned, the sight of that object doesn't exist only the thought of the sight of that object exists when your eyes are closed. How is it that you're defining the word "universe" here? I'm gonna be assuming that you're using "universe" to refer to "reality". If something is not in your direct experience (you alluded to this by talking about objects that you can or cannot see) then on what basis can you say that something (e.g. other objects) exist? I agree with you that you are every object in the universe, I just don't understand why you seem to be saying that the universe includes things which are not in your direct experience. From my perspective your belief that you were a dinosaur is not rooted in your present moment experience. Isn't this first sentence of yours contradictory to the basic truth/premise that all that exists is the present moment? The present moment isn't "limited" because the present moment is all that exists. And going back to my second paragraph in this post, I don't think that you can prove or disprove the existence of other conscious beings. (Direct experience)/(the present moment) is all that exists. The thoughts and theories I'm typing are just a happening in the present moment.

So I woke up at 04:45 am today and I took a shower and then afterwards I felt the urge to to go on YouTube like I normally would. I decided to not to and to just be mindful of what comes up. I noticed that without stimulating myself with anything, my present moment experience feels like torture and agony. There's boredom. I was just using addiction to distract myself from that. I let the emotion I was feeling inside just spread across my entire body and tried to accept it. I started to try to get a clear feeling and awareness of the essence/flavour of the sadness I was feeling. But the emotions were just so strong that I eventually gave in. After that, I ended up watching YouTube and watching porn and whilst I was doing so I realised that the same feelings of sadness and boredom were there the entire time its just that I never noticed. Its like there's just this negative feeling at the root of my experience. It's almost as if I use addiction to make myself literally forget that there negative feelings are there, but they are always there. Addiction doesn't alleviate the problem, just hides it. And so I'm not sure what to do about it. It seems like what I have to do about it will be extremely painful, the fear of emptiness (as Leo phrases it) is just overwhelming.

@Butters in some sense animals are like human infants in their mental state. They come across as pure and genuine in contrast to manipulative and unauthentic humans, from my perspective. Idk man the answer to this question ain't simple. Like part of me wants to say yes for some situations but for other situations the answer is no. Like I could kill and eat a chicken but I couldn't kill and eat a human.

@ajasatya You're right, I just need to find more things for boredom. @Nahm I get you. I hope you're right lmao

People who don't give a shit about other people and simultaneously get impatient about what they want can end up commiting hardcore crimes: murder, armed robbery, rape and etc. I was wondering, is this behaviour mostly an expression of stage red (and the stages below it)? Let's suppose that I was born in some lowly developed, primitive tribal culture with the exact genetics I have now. That version of me would end up being around stage purple/red. And if that was the case would I go around raping, murdering and looting like crazy? The reason I wonder this, is because if the answer to the last question I asked was "yes" then it would show that conscience and empathy is a malleable thing for people? Cuz someone at a low stage of development will do heinous shit but at a higher stage of development will almost completely change in how they see things?

@Roman Edouard careful not to cut yourself with all of that edge.

@Benoit Jazy from my experience with stage green people, some of them are palpably hypocritical like some stage blue are. Some extreme stage green people will be very preachy and moralise a lot. Whilst they can talk the talk they may not be able to walk the walk.

I'm making this thread so that I hopefully help others in dealing with the dark side of meditation and the negative emotions that arise from meditation. I've been meditating for about 8-9 months and experienced a fair chunk negativity (but lots of positivity as well) with my practice. All I'm going to do is reflect on what are the causes behind much of the struggle I went through and maybe it'll cause an "aha" moment for someone. It's only recently I think I noticed the cause of so much of the unnecessary suffering I've went through. I might start off with a bit of a tangent in the next paragraph. Whenever you first get into personal development and consciousness work, you'll be exposed to all sorts of simple truths and fundamental ideas. E. G. Four noble truths, acceptance of the present moment, counter-intuitive moves and etc. When I hear these ideas it's easy for me to think "well of course, I know that". I'll say to myself that I understand something, but then the exact moment that I have to apply that truth I forgot about out. And I'll not even notice that I even forgot about the truth because of low awareness. I typed all of the previous paragraph to just come back to the simple truth you hear that happiness and enlightenment is about accepting the present moment. An extremely counter-intuitive truth is this (I'm making up the exact phrasing here): to "not care" (using quotation marks because there's a little bit more to what I'm saying than just this phrase as it can be misinterpreted) about enlightenment is what will get you closer to enlightenment. Or in other words, by remaining motionless ("motionless" in a metaphorical sense) you start moving towards enlightenment. As far as my personality type goes, I can be a perfectionist and I'm neurotic. A key point I want to emphasise is this: whenever you are meditating, do not be concerned with the progress you are making. Stop that completely. Do not become worried or anxious if your awareness is low. Do not become worried or anxious about trying enforce any of the advice I give here, because that will result in you not following the advice. You cannot force awareness. No, let me say that shit again because this truth needs to be unforceably embodied in every cell in your body if you're a novice like me. You cannot force awareness. Do you see how there's a bit of a paradox in what I'm asking? It's almost as if im asking you to try to stop trying, which creates a paradox. But don't stress about the paradox, just do whatever you want to do. There have been times where after a long meditation session I've felt a deep pit of despair and depression. What will happen is that during meditation I will experience negative sensations. To elaborate:I'll have intense waves of irretibility and restlessness, intense leg pain, feelings of sadness (as well as frustration and anger) arising, I'll have have frequent involuntary/subconscious muscle contractions (e. G. l'll be straining/contracting my facial muscles and as a result my face will be shaking. This sensations involved are more neutral than negative, its just that I associate a negative meaning to it. ). And as these negative feelings and sensations arise, I'll obsess about the fact that those feelings are there. I'll try to forcibly be aware of something and have limited success. This pattern of thought and behaviour can easily lead to temporarily exacerbating neurosis. I've had previous glimpses of enlightenment and my ego will be neurotic about recreating those same glimpses and non-dual states. I'll be obsessed with achieving my egoic perception of positivity and that will create the opposite effect to what I want. Within meditation we are often try to direct our attention and awareness, and it's the intent behind our attention that determines what will happen. To illustrate my point, I want you to try a little experiment. I want you to play as close attention as possible as you can to the words in this sentence and the meaning it is trying to convey. Just keep trying to focus intently on the words you're reading. And as you are reading this, is it perhaps the case that you've tensed up your eyes, forehead and face? (in conjunction with other muscles in your body?) Did the tensing up actually achieve anything? Or is it a conditioned reaction which is indicative of something deeper about your psychology? Awareness and mindfulness should arise from a place of genuine curiosity about reality. Trying to generate mindfulness and awareness from the intent of "fixing" your mind, fixing your experience, "improving" yourself, will have potentially disastrous side consequences. Many things will arise during meditation, and equanimity is of utmost importance.

@VictorB02 Yeah I liked that part too. He is a very eloquent speaker when it comes to addressing the distinction between self and other. I personally have two favourite Alan Watts lectures. 00:00 - 02:18 of this video is just amazing, it's one of the most simple and profound things I've ever heard spoken. The rest of the lecture is just as amazing. There is a shortened version of this video which shows Alan Watts in person https://www.organism.earth/library/document/89 This other lecture blew my mind as well. He just talks so brutally honestly and accurately about the idea of improving yourself.

What you quoted is no more of a belief than anything else. I still think what I said about what an illusion is relatively useful as a pointer to something but you of course have your view of things. Just because I can't define every word I use in a sentence doesn't mean that the sentence is useless as a pointer. As an overall impression, I can't help but feel a pointless game (ie it is non conducive to actually getting to a point) is being played with the line questioning and reasoning you've been posting. I don't see why you're trying to question my precise descriptions of a concept so vague and hard to pin down when I don't even take my own descriptions too seriously. I don't take the words seriously, I'm just coming up with them because you asked me to. Some things are beyond being able to simply explain with words.

@Roman Edouard LOL. I can relate. I think he's one of the few people I'd fanboy over.

@Nahm Well that's hard to answer. When I read your question its like you're asking me how language and definitions are formed, and to that I would say I don't know. "Illusion" is word that has a different meaning to different people, depending on the context they hear it in, what connotations they have with the word, what other words they know and etc. And to then try and describe what it means to ascribe meaning to words, my answer is who tf knows. I have no clue why words are processed the way they are. My cheeky answer to your question is "because I said so". This is simply the way I look at things, I can't verbally articulate to you why. In regards to the bit you quoted of me, something that I think I am currently incapable of adequetly defining is "resistance". I have, what is in my view, no good way of describing it off the top of my head. NGL answering this question feels a tad bit gay. It's like I've just danced around with words and said nothing of substance LOL. I feel like a fraud :p. I just need to shut my mouth and meditate.

@Roman Edouard Bitch please, you're pretty cool and interesting. If the first quote written here is instead phrased as "reality is consciousness" then I think I can more easily address the first question in your paragraph. In regards to the first question. Reality is everything you are experiencing right now is my perspective. Thoughts, 5 senses, attention, feelings, emotions, different sensations, other people and etc. It's just everything. And all of these things are in your conscious experience. "All concepts are in your conscious experience" is often something people on this forum are trying to get at when they talk about reality just being consciousness. People are trying to get at this to try and make people question their beliefs and assumptions of reality, their assumptions that there is an objective world and etc. In regards to your second question, I have no answer. I don't know what is meant by it either.

@Nahm I don't know its true. How can we a know anything to be "true"? But words will flow out of my mind anyway. The words flowing out of my mind have no more truth value than random colours or sounds I hear outside. The true origin of the definition I gave is nothing. But imma ignore that for know. The definition I gave for "illusion" in the context of Enlightenment and consciousness work is what my mind has based upon from my experiences meditating and practicing mindfulness.

@Nahm "reality as it is" is just "reality". Its irreducible. Is there something you're trying to get at?

@Nahm To me, an "illusion" is any belief or distortion in awareness that causes resistance to reality as it is.

@Shadowraix I am trying to talk from direct experience. I believe what I'm saying is just a natural extension of the realisation that everything is now. I would be lying if I said that my motive behind typing these messages wasn't ego driven, but I'm at least trying to make sure I don't let that distort what I say too much.

@Leo Gura I can't edit my previous comment with the desired quote so I'm sending this separate message to just elaborate. You believe that you are God right, and that you are reality and reality is everything in your consciousness right? You can't prove that other people have their own POV and their own thoughts. God is everything in your direct experience, right now. As far as God is concerned, the thoughts of other conscious beings do not exist! You seem to think that the existence of other conscious beings is a given and I think you use the word "God" (which represents all of reality) in logically contradictory ways in the sense that you think God is everything in your experience yet you also think that God is the point of view of "other people" when the point of view of other people is not in your experience. On the one hand you seem to be saying God is everything in your experience but then you're also saying God is this seperate experience and POV. But this separate experience and POV doesn't exist! It's a concept! The existence of another POV is a concept and is not in your direct experience, and is therefore not God.

@Leo Gura I 100% agree. What I'm having an "issue" understanding is your definition of "creature". I'll use words other than "creature" to communicate my view. Edit: I do not know if other people in my conscious experience are centres of conscious experience or are not centres of conscious experience. Either way, the thoughts and actions of my ego are as much me as the actions of other people. However, I do not know if these other conscious beings exist and have thoughts to begin with. To believe such a thing is to be conceptualising. All I know for certain is that reality, which is me, is this cloud of thoughts, feelings, sensations and is just a happening. What do you mean by "forever"? "Forever" implies the existence of a infinitely extended past and future. The notion of "forever" is rooted in the concept of "time". I might come across as pedantic but I think I'm pointing to something important. Who knows if the big self it will take on an infinite number of forms. The way "I" see it , all I know for certain is that the big Self has the one form in my present moment experience because the past and future don't exist. The idea that reality is in flux and hence constantly changing form is an illusion if you accept that time is an illusion. I feel like with any discussion/debate on this forum, if the two of us were to sit with each other and shut our mouths and listen to the sound of a gong we'd reach a mutual understanding of the beauty of existence but the moment that mouths open there's always misunderstanding. Words are a tricky thing.

@Roman Edouard I haven't watched that video of Leo's but I agree that Leo's claim is unsubstantiated if that is what he said (all beliefs are technically unsubstantiated but you get the point that I don't agree with it). However I perhaps have a different line of reasoning to you? I'll just put out my view of things in contrast to trying to "debunk" what you said because I think we might be agreeing with each other. For you, Roman Edouard, everything in your experience is inside of your consciousness. People can conceptualise all they want about reality (ie saying that it is material, spiritual, logical, infinite, finite), but all reality is for a fact is this present moment experience you have with your thoughts and concepts about reality being subset of all the information that composes reality. You can think of reality as literally being mathematically equal to the mathematical sum of all sensations, thoughts, sense data, and emotions in your consciousness. I used the word "mathematically" in my previous sentence to show that I'm conveying the idea that reality is LITERALLY 100% composed of all the contents in your consciousness. Reality=consciousness. If you're familiar with maths and like to mentally masturbate then you can think of reality as a vector composed of an infinite number of dimensions, since you would need an infinite number of numbers to define the exact configuration of reality. I can elaborate more on that claim if you want. All of reality is just this amalgamation of stuff in your consciousness. You only have your present moment precisely because the term "present moment" is refers literally to how everything is. Your thoughts and concepts about reality are another facet and component of this one consciousness, which makes the truth value of your thoughts no more greater than random sounds or colour you experience. And paradoxically enough I'm trying to use words to communicate this to you. Time doesn't exist because all you have and ever will have is now, this "truth" is extremely clear its just that our minds are always distracted and are attached to thoughts which is why we always forget this. Tomorrow never comes. Realising time doesn't exist isn't a matter of scientific inquiry, its a matter of introspection. To feel in your bones that time in is an illusion is extremely profound and hard hitting. It makes you see that causality is an illusion since causality needs a past, and all you live in is uncaused, completely and utterly spontaneous moment which you did nothing to create. Random tangent, the spontaneity of reality is extraordinary. This is because there is something, our present moment experience, in contrast to nothing. Why is there something in contrast to nothing? Back to the thread topic. In my first person experience, I cannot prove solipsism to be false. This alone is enough to say that the idea that the idea I will live the same experience as another person around me is not "provable". All there is is this now experience, all other concepts (e.g saying "I will live as a bird") are just noise within this experience. @Leo Gura I agree with what you are pointing towards. The true self is all of reality, as it is right now. OK Leo, but what do you mean by "creature" here? The idea that there exist external biological organisms which are centers for conscious experience is a concept which I cannot prove. You, Leo Gura, are appearing in my consciousness as a creature but I do not know that you are actually another conscious being. I am Leo Gura but I do not know if Leo Gura is conscious. The falsehood of solipsism is a practical truth but when aiming for Enlightenment we want the person to stop conceptualising and abstracting all together. To even say a statement like "you'll live forever" is extremely fuzzy verbal territory to root in actuality because implicit to that statement is notions of time when time is an illusion. I'm not saying that the statement is "wrong" it's just that that the verbal communication comes across as too complicated

@BreezeWW the closest thing I use to an aid for meditation is just gong sounds. It's simple but I think it does the job depending on my mood.