lmfao

Within Spiral Dynamics, each stage has valuable lessons to learn from even after you've surpassed that stage. In the video linked above, Leo essentially states that a good way to understand what lessons you can take from each stage is to examine a historical and/or currently living figure who is a healthy embodiment of that stage. I'm finding this slightly difficult so I'll just share my thoughts. I finding it difficult to understand what role models can be used for beige, purple and red although I have some current speculations. The role models won't be healthy per see they'll just be visibly clear manifestations of their stage and you can see some very good qualities about them Beige is such basically ground zero and understanding what constitutes beige is so incredibly deep because it underlies everything above it. Beige basically just shows us what's at the very essence of all living organisms which are animals. "Understanding and integrating" doesn't really have to be done (it's already done) because beige is extremely qualitavely different from the other stages in how you conceptualise it. No role models are needed. Next is purple. Purple is basically just joining/forming a tribe in order to acquire more fundamental biological resources: food, sex, water, shelter and etc. Purple is still quite centered around beige in that your actions have very little other motive than acquisition of fundamental physical needs. But it is at this stage that psychological needs of bonding and connection start to be met. What is the lesson to be integrated here? That co-operation is extremely useful for getting shit done and also sometimes having a sense of belonging? That seems like a legit lesson although anybody who's above stage red would have most likely fully integrated purple. Maybe a purple role model could be a mother in a hunter gathering society who cares very deeply about her tribe/family? And now for red. People in red realise that they don't need to keep sacrificing for the clan to meet their needs, they can exercise their own will on the world and get whatever the fuck they want. A red person will act impulsively (it is the word impulsive that is key to understanding a difference between red and orange) to meet his needs irregardless of the severe pain and distress he may inflict upon others. I think a healthy lesson from red is that sometimes you just need to look out for yourself and ruthlessly act. It is in red that you can get people with enormously big egos but there are still aspects of a big ego which you can integrate. People with big egos understand that if they want shit to change in the world, they have to take action and use force sometimes. Maybe a callous hit man who'll feel no remorse when killing for money can be your "role model" in the sense that you can respect the fact that there is an aspect of this man which has guts and wants to manipulate the world around him. Maybe your role model for Red can just be anyone who feels little empathy and will actively hurt others on an impulse to get what they want? As morally repugnant as that sounds, there are still qualities about red (and purple mentioned previously) to be integrated. What lessons do you believe are to be integrated from purple and red? Do you agree with what I've said are the healthy aspects of these stages? Pushovers and wimps with low self esteem perhaps have a thing or two to learn from red. By integrating red, you can have a burning desire to achieve success. If Leo ever makes a video on assertiveness I think he'll mention stage red.

@Girzo Agreed. @Leo Gura As long as you understood the message I was trying to convey I'm content with the conversation.

@Girzo You can interpret what I said as trying to "school" you if you want, I was simply stating my view of things. If someone (e.g. Leo or Shinzen Young or a member of this forum) says that a certain insight won't be reached until you reach a particular non-dual state, my response isn't to say "Why are you trying to school me?" in a defensive manner. I state why I disagree with them and leave it at that. Your question just comes across as immature.

@Girzo As much as an unbelievable and utterly huge mindfuck it is I just believe flux is an illusion and you'll see it if you reach a deep non-dual state. You don't have to believe me from my posts, just do what you think is best.

I would highly recommend that people try modafinil/armodafinil before meditating. I took 150mg armodafinil today a few hours before meditating and after meditating my mind now feels extremely still. As far as side effects ago of armodafinil, the main side effect I have is a sense of pressure I have in my forehead area. Not so much do an aching sensation, just a slight sensation of tightness in my head. Taking a full pill of armodafinil doesn't feel overwhelming at all to me, although it did the first time so I recommend you start off with a small dosage cuz who knows how you'll react.

@purerogue Logic uses words and concepts. Words and concepts are a subset of the present moment happening that is reality. Words and thoughts are a part of reality in the same way that colors and sounds are a part of a reality. There is no more inherent truth value to a concept then there is to sound because both these things have the same origin, which is nothing/God. "you" neither created the thoughts or the sounds you experience.

@CreamCat the answer which is probably perfect for your question is also probably the answer you think is cliche which is "everything is already perfect".

@Kloof nice post.

@Girzo Im not making the claim that my experience couldn't morph into "another person's" in the next moment of experience (if a next moment even exists), I am stating that I can never know that to be true because everything that is experienced is always experienced in one consciousness. Reality is this completely uncaused, spontaneous present moment. There is something rather than nothing so anything is indeed possible. My posts should boil down to me saying that from my perspective, Leo's statements are perhaps not rooted in "actuality". The point of contention is just unimportant at the end of the day tbh. And from non-dual experiences I've had I genuinely think it's very possible that time and even flux doesn't exist. I'm not just being a keyboard warrior here. I think seeing through flux is something you get a glimpse of when going super deep into consciousness. I think it's the sort of thing that happens when your awareness merges with God. It accompanies the "realisation" that reality is completely uncaused and spontaneous with literally nothing at its foundation, at least for me. It accompanies seeing through time.

@Leo Gura The way I see it is that we can hold all sorts of practical models for reality and the universe (like materialism and rationality) but if we're gonna chase enlightenment then we have to see through the models and from my perspective you're perhaps confusing models of reality as being foundational to reality. That's because I don't see how solipsism can be disproven. Within reality all the you have are experiences. How would any combination of experiences (whether related to awakening or not) show you that there exist other centres of conscious experience in spite of the fact that everything experienced by reality is just in your one consciousness (which would hence leave the question of whether other conscious beings exists to be an unknown)? I feel you Suppose you a have an object in front of you in a room and you can see it. Now lets suppose you close your eyes. As far as reality is concerned, the sight of that object doesn't exist only the thought of the sight of that object exists when your eyes are closed. How is it that you're defining the word "universe" here? I'm gonna be assuming that you're using "universe" to refer to "reality". If something is not in your direct experience (you alluded to this by talking about objects that you can or cannot see) then on what basis can you say that something (e.g. other objects) exist? I agree with you that you are every object in the universe, I just don't understand why you seem to be saying that the universe includes things which are not in your direct experience. From my perspective your belief that you were a dinosaur is not rooted in your present moment experience. Isn't this first sentence of yours contradictory to the basic truth/premise that all that exists is the present moment? The present moment isn't "limited" because the present moment is all that exists. And going back to my second paragraph in this post, I don't think that you can prove or disprove the existence of other conscious beings. (Direct experience)/(the present moment) is all that exists. The thoughts and theories I'm typing are just a happening in the present moment.

So I woke up at 04:45 am today and I took a shower and then afterwards I felt the urge to to go on YouTube like I normally would. I decided to not to and to just be mindful of what comes up. I noticed that without stimulating myself with anything, my present moment experience feels like torture and agony. There's boredom. I was just using addiction to distract myself from that. I let the emotion I was feeling inside just spread across my entire body and tried to accept it. I started to try to get a clear feeling and awareness of the essence/flavour of the sadness I was feeling. But the emotions were just so strong that I eventually gave in. After that, I ended up watching YouTube and watching porn and whilst I was doing so I realised that the same feelings of sadness and boredom were there the entire time its just that I never noticed. Its like there's just this negative feeling at the root of my experience. It's almost as if I use addiction to make myself literally forget that there negative feelings are there, but they are always there. Addiction doesn't alleviate the problem, just hides it. And so I'm not sure what to do about it. It seems like what I have to do about it will be extremely painful, the fear of emptiness (as Leo phrases it) is just overwhelming.

@Butters in some sense animals are like human infants in their mental state. They come across as pure and genuine in contrast to manipulative and unauthentic humans, from my perspective. Idk man the answer to this question ain't simple. Like part of me wants to say yes for some situations but for other situations the answer is no. Like I could kill and eat a chicken but I couldn't kill and eat a human.

@ajasatya You're right, I just need to find more things for boredom. @Nahm I get you. I hope you're right lmao

People who don't give a shit about other people and simultaneously get impatient about what they want can end up commiting hardcore crimes: murder, armed robbery, rape and etc. I was wondering, is this behaviour mostly an expression of stage red (and the stages below it)? Let's suppose that I was born in some lowly developed, primitive tribal culture with the exact genetics I have now. That version of me would end up being around stage purple/red. And if that was the case would I go around raping, murdering and looting like crazy? The reason I wonder this, is because if the answer to the last question I asked was "yes" then it would show that conscience and empathy is a malleable thing for people? Cuz someone at a low stage of development will do heinous shit but at a higher stage of development will almost completely change in how they see things?

@Roman Edouard careful not to cut yourself with all of that edge.

@Benoit Jazy from my experience with stage green people, some of them are palpably hypocritical like some stage blue are. Some extreme stage green people will be very preachy and moralise a lot. Whilst they can talk the talk they may not be able to walk the walk.

I'm making this thread so that I hopefully help others in dealing with the dark side of meditation and the negative emotions that arise from meditation. I've been meditating for about 8-9 months and experienced a fair chunk negativity (but lots of positivity as well) with my practice. All I'm going to do is reflect on what are the causes behind much of the struggle I went through and maybe it'll cause an "aha" moment for someone. It's only recently I think I noticed the cause of so much of the unnecessary suffering I've went through. I might start off with a bit of a tangent in the next paragraph. Whenever you first get into personal development and consciousness work, you'll be exposed to all sorts of simple truths and fundamental ideas. E. G. Four noble truths, acceptance of the present moment, counter-intuitive moves and etc. When I hear these ideas it's easy for me to think "well of course, I know that". I'll say to myself that I understand something, but then the exact moment that I have to apply that truth I forgot about out. And I'll not even notice that I even forgot about the truth because of low awareness. I typed all of the previous paragraph to just come back to the simple truth you hear that happiness and enlightenment is about accepting the present moment. An extremely counter-intuitive truth is this (I'm making up the exact phrasing here): to "not care" (using quotation marks because there's a little bit more to what I'm saying than just this phrase as it can be misinterpreted) about enlightenment is what will get you closer to enlightenment. Or in other words, by remaining motionless ("motionless" in a metaphorical sense) you start moving towards enlightenment. As far as my personality type goes, I can be a perfectionist and I'm neurotic. A key point I want to emphasise is this: whenever you are meditating, do not be concerned with the progress you are making. Stop that completely. Do not become worried or anxious if your awareness is low. Do not become worried or anxious about trying enforce any of the advice I give here, because that will result in you not following the advice. You cannot force awareness. No, let me say that shit again because this truth needs to be unforceably embodied in every cell in your body if you're a novice like me. You cannot force awareness. Do you see how there's a bit of a paradox in what I'm asking? It's almost as if im asking you to try to stop trying, which creates a paradox. But don't stress about the paradox, just do whatever you want to do. There have been times where after a long meditation session I've felt a deep pit of despair and depression. What will happen is that during meditation I will experience negative sensations. To elaborate:I'll have intense waves of irretibility and restlessness, intense leg pain, feelings of sadness (as well as frustration and anger) arising, I'll have have frequent involuntary/subconscious muscle contractions (e. G. l'll be straining/contracting my facial muscles and as a result my face will be shaking. This sensations involved are more neutral than negative, its just that I associate a negative meaning to it. ). And as these negative feelings and sensations arise, I'll obsess about the fact that those feelings are there. I'll try to forcibly be aware of something and have limited success. This pattern of thought and behaviour can easily lead to temporarily exacerbating neurosis. I've had previous glimpses of enlightenment and my ego will be neurotic about recreating those same glimpses and non-dual states. I'll be obsessed with achieving my egoic perception of positivity and that will create the opposite effect to what I want. Within meditation we are often try to direct our attention and awareness, and it's the intent behind our attention that determines what will happen. To illustrate my point, I want you to try a little experiment. I want you to play as close attention as possible as you can to the words in this sentence and the meaning it is trying to convey. Just keep trying to focus intently on the words you're reading. And as you are reading this, is it perhaps the case that you've tensed up your eyes, forehead and face? (in conjunction with other muscles in your body?) Did the tensing up actually achieve anything? Or is it a conditioned reaction which is indicative of something deeper about your psychology? Awareness and mindfulness should arise from a place of genuine curiosity about reality. Trying to generate mindfulness and awareness from the intent of "fixing" your mind, fixing your experience, "improving" yourself, will have potentially disastrous side consequences. Many things will arise during meditation, and equanimity is of utmost importance.

@VictorB02 Yeah I liked that part too. He is a very eloquent speaker when it comes to addressing the distinction between self and other. I personally have two favourite Alan Watts lectures. 00:00 - 02:18 of this video is just amazing, it's one of the most simple and profound things I've ever heard spoken. The rest of the lecture is just as amazing. There is a shortened version of this video which shows Alan Watts in person https://www.organism.earth/library/document/89 This other lecture blew my mind as well. He just talks so brutally honestly and accurately about the idea of improving yourself.

What you quoted is no more of a belief than anything else. I still think what I said about what an illusion is relatively useful as a pointer to something but you of course have your view of things. Just because I can't define every word I use in a sentence doesn't mean that the sentence is useless as a pointer. As an overall impression, I can't help but feel a pointless game (ie it is non conducive to actually getting to a point) is being played with the line questioning and reasoning you've been posting. I don't see why you're trying to question my precise descriptions of a concept so vague and hard to pin down when I don't even take my own descriptions too seriously. I don't take the words seriously, I'm just coming up with them because you asked me to. Some things are beyond being able to simply explain with words.

@Roman Edouard LOL. I can relate. I think he's one of the few people I'd fanboy over.

@Nahm Well that's hard to answer. When I read your question its like you're asking me how language and definitions are formed, and to that I would say I don't know. "Illusion" is word that has a different meaning to different people, depending on the context they hear it in, what connotations they have with the word, what other words they know and etc. And to then try and describe what it means to ascribe meaning to words, my answer is who tf knows. I have no clue why words are processed the way they are. My cheeky answer to your question is "because I said so". This is simply the way I look at things, I can't verbally articulate to you why. In regards to the bit you quoted of me, something that I think I am currently incapable of adequetly defining is "resistance". I have, what is in my view, no good way of describing it off the top of my head. NGL answering this question feels a tad bit gay. It's like I've just danced around with words and said nothing of substance LOL. I feel like a fraud :p. I just need to shut my mouth and meditate.

@Roman Edouard Bitch please, you're pretty cool and interesting. If the first quote written here is instead phrased as "reality is consciousness" then I think I can more easily address the first question in your paragraph. In regards to the first question. Reality is everything you are experiencing right now is my perspective. Thoughts, 5 senses, attention, feelings, emotions, different sensations, other people and etc. It's just everything. And all of these things are in your conscious experience. "All concepts are in your conscious experience" is often something people on this forum are trying to get at when they talk about reality just being consciousness. People are trying to get at this to try and make people question their beliefs and assumptions of reality, their assumptions that there is an objective world and etc. In regards to your second question, I have no answer. I don't know what is meant by it either.

@Nahm I don't know its true. How can we a know anything to be "true"? But words will flow out of my mind anyway. The words flowing out of my mind have no more truth value than random colours or sounds I hear outside. The true origin of the definition I gave is nothing. But imma ignore that for know. The definition I gave for "illusion" in the context of Enlightenment and consciousness work is what my mind has based upon from my experiences meditating and practicing mindfulness.

@Nahm "reality as it is" is just "reality". Its irreducible. Is there something you're trying to get at?