Spider Jerusalem

The very act of seeking implies some kind of object that is being sought. I think it's safe to say that whatever is being sought is not an object - so active seeking can never succeed except in the sense that it can lead to a state of not-seeking. Seems simple enough - so just have to wait for the seeking to exhaust itself. The seeking appears to be some kind of circuitous route (sometimes decades) to non-seeking, but perhaps that's the way it's meant to work.

@Leo Gura Agree that deliberately non-seeking is a trap and non-seeking by itself won't help. I guess what I mean is that there appear to be transitions from non-seeking (ignorant) —› seeking (desire) —› non-seeking (enlightened). The two types of non-seeking seem radically different somehow.

In one of Leo's videos ("Grasping The Illusory Nature Of Thought", I think), he talks about "flattening the illusion." In general, I get it. There are no "objects" out there other than the reality we give them by "dimensionalizing", i.e. an external object has as many dimensions as the mind attributes to it. In other words, "external" objects do not possess dimensions of their own; they are a property of the mind. The question then is how is this relevant to physical/mental/emotional life? It seems to me that it can still be "business as usual" - dimensionalize as is necessary for survival, and flatten when the 3D-ness of life (i.e. confusing map and territory) becomes more of an encumbrance than a tool. The trick is just being constantly aware of the "seems" (abstraction) vs. "is"

@ZenDog Sure, if by technique, you mean no-technique technique

@ZenDog You've just definitively proved that "thinking about being happy" can't possibly work. You can't really become happy "deliberately". I can only describe the best way of approaching this as "don't seek" AND "don't not seek." which is what is generally meant by "do nothing". "Do nothing" doesn't mean nothing is happening, as the functioning of everything always goes on in its merry way and doesn't give a hoot about happiness or any other mental categories. Just be awake to whatever is happening (I know..sounds clichéd, but the cliché is valid) Another cliché: "Let all the questions fall away". None of this means that you can't analyze how phenomena work in general (I mean it's good to cure diseases based on some kind of theory, right?). But when it comes to the so-called spiritual process, "seeking" doesn't work at all in the long run, although it may be helpful to start with. Above all, don't use Mind to seek Mind, as this is completely pointless and works more like a spiritual game than anything really helpful. However, that said, it's not that simple to "do nothing", as it initially appears to be counterproductive to the so-called quest. Seeking happens...and then the seeking ends. Since there are so many paradoxes in this space, let me add one more to add to the mess: "Enlightenment is both easier and harder than you might think."

Agreed. Objectively, there is no off position or even degrees of "on-ness" or "off-ness". It's always in the "fully" on position. Even in deep sleep, it's always fully on. It has to be that way, otherwise nothing would work. The "enlightenment" or "functioning" never takes a break, apparently, and always works perfectly and at full potential. Only the "imagined" subject can narrow his or her focus, but shit is always fully on without exception

I read a book called "Fingers Pointing Towards The Moon" in 2013. At some point, I was inspired to collect some choice quotes from this book and put them on a dedicated twitter account. These nuggets of wisdom may be helpful for pilgrims on the path. Fingers Pointing Towards The Moon: A collection of quotes from Wei Wu Wei on Eastern and Western philosophy and metaphysics: https://twitter.com/weiwuwei_quotes

I found this article helpful. Can Buddhism Save the World? by Michael Welton http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/15/can-buddhism-save-the-world/

As far as I can tell, even if there is no reason for existence, this doesn't contradict the process of finding out how the mechanism works. Personally, even if I think that existence itself has no reason, I'm actually still quite interested in the causes of, say, hunger and poverty in the third world (your example). As far as I can tell, there is a strong cause and effect in play here. Centuries of pillage and looting by imperialist countries is certainly one way to explain the mechanism of how inequality works. Similarly, I'm also interested in how "free trade" works in destroying local agriculture as a result of western counries flooding poor countries with cheap goods via the subsidy mechanism. Moreover, if the environment is rapidly deteriorating, I think it's easy enough to find a cause there as well. Certainly, a big priority is to alleviate suffering by honestly assessing the causes of social phenomena. As to why anything exists in the first place, who knows? No reason seems to make sense. Anyway, it doesn't seem necessarily relevant to solving problems in the real world. Seems like a nice to have. And if there is no reason for why anything exists, even better! Less to figure out

@TruthSeeker Just to add to this, maybe this quote from Open Secret will help: So unless you can find an entity "X," you can't invalidate the above argument. Of course, if you imagine there is an entity "X," then you can also imagine that entity "X" has free will. But imagining "X" and then assigning "it" free will seems pointless and futile.

Note sure if you've seen the documentary called "Man on Wire." It's about Philippe Petit, the wire-walker who walked between the World Trade Center towers in 1974. The whole caper is both absurd and exquisite. When reporters questioned Petit about why he did it, Petit replied, "The beauty of it is, there is no ‘why.’" Perhaps, this quote could point you in the right direction?

"Do nothing" works well for me. Do nothing doesn't mean nothing is happening, since there is always the "functioning". Do nothing means hold your attention (relaxed attention) and keep it that way. Do nothing also means non-interference, i.e., when thoughts arise (and they will), just don't grasp. Once you grasp, you're definitely doing something unhelpful. Also, don't get lost in thoughts because that means you've lost attention (fallen "asleep") and are getting engrossed in thoughts. Overall, the main thing is hold continuous relaxed attention (until it becomes effortless, i.e. you're doing nothing at that point). Easier said than done though!

It's a lot simpler to just assume that there is no reason for nothingness to "create" existence -- without falling into the trap of nihilism (i.e. avoid the "OMG, everything is meaningless. I feel empty and depressed." at any cost) Looking for meaning is a series of big hairballs, best to just cough them all out . At this point, I'm perfectly happy with words such as "isness" or suchness" , "thisness." There doesn't have to be a reason for existence - it's a bad assumption to think there must be a reason. It's also a bad assumption to think that there was a beginning to all this.

So you posted this on Friday. On Saturday morning, I was listening to the song 1979 by The Smashing Pumpkins at home. A few hours later, I'm at the grocery store, and as I'm waiting in the checkout line, 1979 starts playing. I don't attribute any meaning to this, but it's just fun to experience these synchronicities. I must add that 1979 is not a new song that is likely to be played anywhere. Oddly enough, I'm going to a Smashing Pumpkins concert next month, which is why I was listening to the song in the first place. As to why someone at the grocery store played it at that exact moment, I don't know...but makes sense without resort to any divine intervention, in my opinion.

Agree, and to add to this: There is a difference between being dogmatic and just making a working assumption based on your own intuition. The working assumption helps us move forward in some sense, but leaves the possibility of the assumption being invalidated in due course. However, the process of working through the assumption may lead to some other realization that was not expected.

It seems to me that there is a pattern in the seeking process (not saying that this is the only pattern). Just thought I'd make some notes on it based on my experience. I've done some extrapolation starting at point 7 below, otherwise 1-6 matches my own experience. I understand that even the apparent sequence of "events" is illusory, but still... Initial state is no seeking at all. Existing in some sort of benighted state. Generally, this benighted state is assumed to be responsible for general human SNAFUs. By chance, you encounter the concept of enlightenment (friend, book, documentary etc.) You either ignore the concept, and remain benighted, or else become an avid seeker of the "truth" Read hundreds of books, attend courses & retreats, join forums, and learn all the terminology and processes involved in the seeking process. You may even have the most excellent experiences which you'll try to repeat without much success. At some point, get fed up because you realize that your intellect and blissful experiences will only get you so far. You hit some hard limits. Apparently, some kind of leap is required that's not quite logical. You're not sure how to proceed. If you persist, after enough practice, most illusions are abandoned, and the clouds start to disappear. De-conditioning proceeds at a steady pace and may even accelerate rapidly taking you to the brink. Finally, only the enlightenment delusion remains. i.e. You still think that you are some kind of solid entity that can become enlightened. As long as you think this, you're till trapped, and still a million miles away from whatever it is you think is going to be attained. Even if you understand this intellectually, it's no use. A leap is still required. In general, the mind won't let go of the enlightenment delusion, since the mind is addicted to the thinking process and cannot stop. Finally, if it does indeed occur, even the enlightenment concept is finally dropped. You realize the futility, relax, and everything is as it should be. In a sense, you've come full circle, but something is different nevertheless. Perhaps, this is the mother of all realizations. But wait...the process is never "done." De-conditioning continues to occur, and if not attentive, you start getting conditioned again. But this time, you'll be alert enough to keep the de-conditioning going. The game of life continues.

Ah...I'd never heard of the Bulls. But yes, it will be many aeons

I'd like to add that both non-enlightened minds and enlightened minds are both illusions. Only actual entities/things can be enlightened, and since there no entities/things whatsoever anywhere, no one can become enlightened. Only illusions can disappear, but even the disappearance of the illusion is an illusion. Think of those holograms you may have seen in a museum. We would laugh ourselves silly if the hologram said it was an entity subject to enlightenment and non-enlightenment. I'm not saying we're holograms - just using an analogy. So now what? My suggestion is to neither seek nor withdraw. Seeking will cause suffering and withdrawing will also cause suffering. Everything in the illusion is illusory, including the seemingly blissful ones. Above all, don't go looking for blissful experiences, as they will stop appearing in due course, assuming they even appeared in the first place. Looking forward to a blissful or any other kind enlightenment "experience" is probably the biggest trap in my opinion. Just rid yourself of the ideas of enlightenment and non-enlightened since these ideas also occur in the illusion. They don't call it Maya for nothing!

Do nothing doesn't mean nothing is happening, since there is always the "functioning". Do nothing means hold your attention (relaxed attention) and keep it that way. Do nothing also means non-interference, i.e., when thoughts arise (and they will), just don't grasp. Once you grasp, you're definitely doing something unhelpful, and don't get lost in thoughts because that means you've lost attention and are getting engrossed in the mental chimpery. Blinking and breathing are part of the functioning, and they are automatic anyway -- the main thing is hold continuous relaxed attention (until it becomes effortless, i.e. you're doing nothing at that point).

Generally, I drink two cups of green tea (one in the morning with a little snack), and one in the afternoon after lunch to keep working with a reasonable level of attentiveness. In the morning, it definitely helps with staying just a little more alert during meditation without getting hyperactive. I usually drink Dragonwell or Genmaicha. If you can find a store that sells loose green tea, that works best and reduces waste and cost. You can then buy empty tea bags and fill them with the loose tea yourself. To keep it interesting, I might also drink Kombucha (GTs and House Kombucha are two brands I like) which is great. If you have the patience to do some juicing, I recommend that as well, although, that serves a totally different purpose than tea. Best to wind down in the second half of the day with the myriad herbal teas that are available. Rosie's suggestions are what I would go for as well, but experiment and find out which herbal teas work best for you. There is an unbelievable variety available in decent health food stores. I avoid any tea which needs milk to go with it (regular milk or otherwise). P.S. I don't know how much one would have to drink and for how long in order to get anemic, but doesn't appear to be an issue with 1-2 cups a day for me. I guess some green teas are also advertised as being helpful for weight loss, but I believe you have to drink many many cups for that which would probably not work out in the long-term.

If we take this to its logical conclusion, it seems that awareness is prior to and independent of all phenomenon (rationality being just another phenomenon). So all models of the universe, all models of human behavior, all thought patterns, the god particle etc. are all phenomenon "arising" within awareness. If I recall correctly, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi in his book Flow uses the idea of "contents of consciousness" which seems to indicate that awareness is some sort of special "invisible" container that "contains" all phenomenon. So the container is some sort of permanent featureless feature that is prior to everything. I find it helpful to think of awareness as having a pointer to all the contents within it, but the contents don't have a back pointer. This may also explain the problem of "identification" as we tend to identify with the contents and not the container (assuming we can even even identify with the container)

Phocus, I agree with all your points regarding the benefits of going vegan. I don't claim to be vegan in all social contexts, but at home or when I am outside and have decent options, I generally am. I do some cooking, but where I am (major city), there are plenty of options that I don't need to cook if I don't have the time. I do think that becoming vegan requires some planning, as it is easy to be an unhealthy vegan if you focus on the wrong kind of vegan food. There are many resources out there, but any good vegan cookbook would do the trick (just check out any good bookstore). In general, it's probably better to cook when you can, or find heath food stores in your area. Obviously, vegetables and fruit are key, but there's more to it than just that as I find it hard to get enough calories doing just fruit and vegetables. As far as I know, vegans are most likely to be deficient in B vitamins, but this can be easily solved by taking a supplement (works for me). I suggest reading the book "Whole: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition" for a scientific foundation, and also watching the documentary "Forks over knives" and "Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret" I would say that the main reason for being vegan (for me personally) would be to reduce animal suffering, as there is definitely a holocaust going on just out of sight. I think people pretend to not see it for whatever reason (culture, habit, taste, texture, selfishness etc.). For this aspect, I recommend watching the documentary "Earthlings". Secondly, In my experience, there almost certainly are health benefits, but this may be hard to prove initially (I mean cause and effect is always problematic to pin down accurately in a complex system, right?). Also, as you mentioned, a knowledgeable nutritionist is better qualified to give nutrition advice than an OBGYN.

I found an interesting section in the book Open Secret by Wei Wu Wei. I bring this up, because I had always assumed when I started meditating that I (whatever "I" means) had to look in a different direction (i.e. observing inner emotions, thoughts etc.). But Wei Wu Wei's description above seems to indicate that looking in any direction is just "more of the same" since the seeing is still occurring from a phenomenal center (I suppose he means from the little phenomenal self). If I'm interpreting this correctly, it seems like the seeing has to occur from non-phenomenal vantage point at which point it seems like there is only "seeing," and no apparent distinction between "inside" and "outside," -- as in everything is outside when viewed from the noumenon as Wei Wu Wei calls it. I like to think of this as "you can't see it, you can only see from it." (the "it" being apparently non-phenomenal) Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this and how it may apply in a practical sense for new ways of seeing.

I see the futility. So I should just stop trying to "see" and just see (oh, wait...perhaps Morpheus said something similar)

Wei Wu Wei was dense the first time around, but a third reading many years later...it's something different altogether. Overall, I understand (at some level) that looking for noumenon leads to infinite regression since being IS it. If I "find" a subject, then it would just be another object (a "special" kind of object), and so on until I get a stack overflow. I like your analogy regarding the eyes. Thanks!