dlof

Great discussion with Kevin Knuth, Professor of Physics and former NASA Scientist on UFO's, he had his own sighting as well. Could be worth watching by those who pretend they'd be interested in what scientists have to say about UFO's:

Well this is like 100 people in your town seeing what they thought are Black Mambas, including your Zoologist friend who confirms they did indeed see a Black Mamba. If you doubt that anyone other than the Zoologist saw it, that would be pretty weird. The likelyhood would be that the vast majority of them were seeing Black Mambas since the Zoologist confirms that at least one is around town.

Ok let's narrow things down to David Fravor since he's big in the media right now. But it's by no means the only case. He was a Navy Pilot with decades of experience, was a Commander of a Squadron and he also trained a lot of pilots. The guy is highly qualified and in terms of arial phenomena identification and object sightings made by pilots. He would be your go to guy for this kind of stuff, and it so happens that he's one of the guys who saw this thing first hand. Davd Fravor implies that what he saw could not be anything else other than technology which wasn't made by humans. He does so by saying it's clearly a craft demonstrating advanced technology and based on it's behaviour that it's clearly something that we haven't made. Now if someone was completely neutral and they were presented with Fravor's view on what this thing is, an expert in arial phenomena and object sightings made by pilots etc., and this neutral party was also presented with the opinion of a rando on the politics subforum of a spiritual development forum, if they had to pick a side which side would be sensible for this person to take?

Not sure how sincere you're being, it seems you're mainly interested in arguing abstractions and word-play at this point. We have Navy pilots with decades of experience coming out saying they've seen these things and that they believe essentially that they can't be anything else other than aliens. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to understand that debunking a polaroid some granny took of a hubcap or something doesn't actually make a dent in that.

It's nuanced, Luis Elizondo works for the CIA and we're expected to believe he's the disclosure Santa Claus. He "used to be" a counterintelligence special agent, a role which requires being a very proficient BS'er. The whole disclosure thing is obviously has some kind of agenda behind it, but you'd have to be operating on flat-earther level of intelligence to believe the pilots are lying about seeing what they saw. If you wanted to get into some investigation into this to start getting an idea of what might actually be going on you could watch some DarkJournalist videos on YT. He recently released interviews with John Warner IV, the son of Catherine Mellon of the Mellon banking family and Senator John Warner III. Members of his family are directly involved in this disclosure narrative so he could be worth listening to:

I just finished watching this, was a good interview. It's clear that David Fravor believes it's aliens, he mentions in the interview that if you wanted to be taken seriously you have to avoid talking about "little green men", but after being questioned about what he thinks the tic tacs are he basically alludes to them being aliens without explicitly stating so. After explaining what the UFO's he saw couldn't be, Lex, reading between the lines, says at 2:15:26 "So you're saying if you had to bet all your money, it would be alien technology". This is what should be on everyone's mind at this point after listening to Fravor, you would already know he thinks it's aliens at this point. Fravor replies "I don't like to get into little green men, but it's not something that we created"

It's a good foundation, it's a system where the stakes are huge and credible witness testimony has a lot of weight. The numbers matter as well, two eye witnesses vs hundreds makes a big difference. Nothing is infallible, I'm sure you understand that science gets things wrong sometimes as well. My point which I consistently need to hammer home here is that witness testimony is not something you just ignore. Some people are hung up on the idea of scientists needing to confirm everything like they are the final arbitrators of what's going on in the world. What scientists? A biologist? A physicist? A mathematician? An astrophysicist? Things happen and sometimes all we have are people's testimony to confirm it. How do we know that Caesar crossed the Rubicon in 49 BC? Written records, testimony... not scientists on their hands and knees carbon dating footprints or something. How do we know we should trust those written records? Because of credible witness testimony, how they line up with other written records and so on. Our understanding of the world and history is built on this stuff. If you have all the evidence lined up for UFO's and aliens and you have to make a conclusive decision on whether it's real or not, you'd need to think like a lawyer or a judge. Just being a biologist probably won't help you, or just being an astrophysicist probably won't help you either. But you could get their opinions on certain narrow things where they have their expertise if that helps in any way. These hundreds of witnesses, are they lying? What's their motive, these four people who passed several lie detector tests and all saw the same thing.. are they lying or telling the truth? Think like someone's life is at stake and you have to make a decision based on the evidence. So you want to be as close to certainty as you can be. Now you've got several ex-military personnel saying they saw UFO's disable a missile silo with lasers. Hundreds of witness testimony, group sightings and abductions, military encounters etc. You might even call in Paul Hellyer ex-defence minister of Canada who's saying that upon reviewing the evidence he's certain several species are visiting the earth (see the video on previous page) or the former Israeli Space Security chief who says we're being visited. You weigh it all up and you come to a conclusion based on all the evidence at hand as if someone's life was at stake. What's the likely conclusion.

And here we've come back full-circle to the value of credible witness testimony again. Again, witness testimony has enough weight to sentence someone to death in a court of law, it's not something to just ignore.

@4201 If you could take the following as real based mainly on credible witness testimony, sometimes with evidence like with the Nimitz encounters: 1. Things are flying around defying the laws of physics 2. These objects exhibit intelligence, i.e. they sometimes disable missile silos with laser beams or react differently when tracked by fighter jets 3. Inside these objects are sentient beings which aren't human (Travis Walton case etc.) You could infer that the object was created by something because the universe tends towards entropy and doesn't just build technology out of thin air, except for life / DNA. This is pretty obvious of course. So something definitely created these things. You could infer that they are some kind of craft since they have occupants and they carry the occupants over distance like we use cars, planes etc. You could infer that it's not man made because it's technology far above what we are capable of. You could argue that it's somehow secret government projects with technology hundreds of years ahead of it's time, but then you have point 3) which is people are reporting seeing the occupants as non-human. If you take 1,2,3 as real, then imo Occam's razor suggests aliens and imo anything other than aliens seems far-fetched and woo to me.

My point is that witness testimony is valid, and like I posted before it can mean the difference between a life-sentence and getting off in the court of law. In the legal system, you look at things like credibility of character, ulterior motive etc. And when you have a bunch of people of good character saying the same thing, pieces start to fit together. You compare that with other evidence and you build a picture. Autists in the scientific community can't do this for you, though they are very useful for certain very specific things. No, I meant like the objects in the Nimitz encounters etc. where nobody has a clue what they are since they show up on radar and they got visual sighting on them. Have you looked into that? Most UFO sightings are easily explainable... but I mean if I saw a 20 foot disk shaped UFO land in my backyard and start shooting lasers everywhere and in response you linked me a video of a plastic bag floating in the air it doesn't really explain anything since we're trying to figure out what the laser shooting disk is.

You don't need the scientific community to tell you what it is. Well maybe you do at the moment, but you can grow out of that. Scientists are very specialised in compartmentalised areas of science and in those specialised narrow subjects they are very knowledgeable. But they won't help you with gauging character testimony or piecing multitudes of accounts together and fitting that together with evidence such as video footage. They're not going to help you understand what's going on with UFO's... I mean, what could you be waiting for from the scientific community on the subject anyway? If my sister came home in tears telling me she was attacked by a dog and she was bleeding with bite marks on her. I wouldn't need to wait for the scientific community to tell me she was bitten by a dog. Like what? Haven't heard much from the priesthood scientific community about this, any leads?

Except there are a multitude of cases where people actually see what's piloting the crafts and it turns out they're aliens. So we've got Navy pilots seeing UFO's defy the laws of physics, military personnel saying these craft have come up to missile silos, shot lasers at them and deactivated the missiles... people giving reports about being taken onboard the craft and seeing aliens including groups of people all seeing the same thing and passing lie detector tests, ranking ex-military saying that the government is aware it's aliens. Thinking it's anything other than aliens at this point is pretty out there, and it would be more like seeing electricity in 1200s and saying it's water. Because you know water, always have known water... so it must be water, can't be anything else... despite it behaving completely differently to water and the fact that it's most definitely not water.

The phenomena is being taken seriously enough to be studied further, it has been for at least 60 years. In the legal system, the credibility of character of witnesses and the absence of alterior motive can mean the difference between someone being let off or sentenced to death in some cases. If all of this was presented in a court of law, it would be conclusive that aliens are visiting the earth.

It goes from being an intriguing possibility to a very high probability, or even certainty, when you research the whole field of ufology, i.e. the many hundreds of abduction cases etc. The problem your average Joe has when assessing what's going on with UFO's is they only have exposure to the tip of the iceberg from what's released to them by the media within a recent timeframe, they might have just caught a few recent stories and are basing their entire belief around that. Take Travis Walton, I'm sure you've already heard of the case if you have any interest in the subject already since it's one of the most widely known cases. In the 1970's he was a logger with his colleagues in a truck in a forest at night. They see a UFO on the ground with the lights and everything, Travis gets out goes towards it and is just a few meters away. A laser shoots out of the UFO and knocks him to the ground, his friends flee but then go back for him and he's gone. He's missing for a week, his colleagues, one of them in constant tears, are interviewed by police. then is found by the side of the road. He recounts how he was taken onboard the craft where aliens operated on him. He and all of his colleagues passed several rounds of lie detector tests. That's one case, it stands out and is a widely known one because of the multiple witnesses, but there are many, many more. Now if you combine the many cases where people are actually face to face with aliens with the fact that the Pentagon are releasing footage of crafts flying around defying physics and combine that with military insiders coming out saying this stuff is happening... well it starts approaching the realm of certainty rather than just a possibility.

Quote from Paul Hellyer ex- Minister of National Defence of Canada from the video below: "UFO's are as real as the airplanes flying overhead... at least four species have been visiting earth for thousands of years" Note: He talks about some of the star-systems which they come from which may at first seem like it contradicts the excerpt from the previous document which says that they exist in a realm around the earth. From my own understanding, they definitely exist hyper-dimensionally but some are around earth most of the time and others around other planets. And the way they travel large "distances" would seem to be beyond our understanding, it's like locking into a time period and density and phase shifting into it rather than actually crossing physical distance. Interview with Bob Lazar who worked on reverse engineering UFO's in Area-51